facial animation setup?

[eek]

Hi Rthymone,

Im typing this from a internet phone, as i think my idea will work.So theoretically you have neutral state, like a standard state.

Then you have a script that basically says:

get present state of sliders/percentage, if new selected state(i.e new expression percentages) is different to present state or neutral state then present state becomes new selected state.

you could have a drop down list of new states, and a slider at the top which blends the new state in if changed.

This would work on each points only affecting the ones that have changed.

So the systems looking and checking the rig,and additivily affecting only the parts changed,since that state or neutral state, basically its checking its current state.

so

Get A if B < > than A/C then A = B

A = current state
B=new select/made state
C= neutral state

Now ive got to find a way to script it!! can anyone teach me scripting?

goto go, train to catch

eek

[MayaV]

hi eek

i tried to download the .zip file but it asked for user name / pass for your site. SO can u give u/p or make it available for public d/l

thanx n regards

Vivek

[eek]

Hi Vivek,

Where you trying to get the anim test file?, if so it should be ok just right-click and save as target i just did.

Maybe bandwidth issue?

eek

[rhythmone]

eek,

Here are my current thoughts.

1 - does it make sense to develope components, like... A.mouth, B.forehead,C.nose, D.blink

I say this because... well let me back up. To me I see each pose stored as a set of values, and it seems that these should be stored in an external file so that you can use it across multiple scenes/characters.

So, you end up with files that contain lots of values for rig positioning:
forehead_angry.data ---> m-line1 5.256 1.2356 2.022, m-line1 2.500...
forehead_raised.data """""
mouth_slight_smile.data """"
mouth_huge_smile.data """""

And then a "pose" is made up combinations of these, AND I would think that this also would be stored in separate files.... now there is a choice, these files could either be flat (meaning that they contain hard values)
pose_happy.data ---> m-line1 8.231 -1.2356 3.123, m-line1 -10.222....(which were drived from the data files when saved)
or they could be percentage like sliders values of the subfiles above,
pose_happy.data ---> forehead_raised .25, mouth_slight_smile .35,........

Instinctively I am drawn to the percentage based approach because it would tend to be the most flexible (but also the most difficult to understand) in the end.

NOW - In our scene, you would import the poses, and have sliders on those.
pose_happy 0....through...100
pose_suprised 0....through.....100
...and this is where you would do the actual animating, and keyframing. And the script would run through the entire thing each time
Get pose_happy slider value---> (i.e. 75)
Get pose_happy.data ---> which lists the subcomponents and there % vals so...
Get forehead_raised.data and times by .25 = new val happy_forehead
Get mouth_slight_smile and times by .35 = new val happy_mouth
Then times happy_forehead by .75 (amount of overall pose slider)
Also times happy_mouth by .75 (amount of overall pose slider)

From this you would arrive at the values that would then be applied to the rig. (of course this also leaves room for adding multiple poses together... add together divide by 2).

So tell me what you think about this and then we can discuss how to create the data files.

[eek]

Rthymone,

1 - does it make sense to develope components, like... A.mouth, B.forehead,C.nose, D.blink

I didn't mean components:

The idea of Get A if B < > than A/C then A = B would be that

get A: being get all the values of the sliders or percentages of points on m-lines, at present time/realtime.

If B < > than A/C: So if your new pose e.g frown(sld1:11.2%,sld3,2.0%)selected from list is different from current/realtime state state(sld1:5%,sld3:6.%) or neutral state(sld1:45%,sld3:34%)

then A = B

Then Realtime state/pose, becomes selected pose on the blending value of a slider. 100% being fully blending/completely changed to new pose.

Then it loops again/realtime, and works on each slider only affecting the ones that have changed. Also having a neutral state would be so you affect just specific parts eg. left blink, and make them as poses. So you can blend in specific bits/areas like pull up left corner of mouth into a general pose.

Its the idea of going to, rather than additive/subtractive so eg

sld1: 23% to new state:41% would say take new state value minus sld1 value and add to sld1 to create new state and this adding would be on the value of a blending slider.

Also minus eg. sld:23% to new state 10% would say 23% -10 =13 - 23 to give new state.


I like the idea of creating poses when you need them, as drop down list of poses, you can select and blend in, also save and re use.

So you have neutral pose-base pose.

then a list youve created like:

Frown -->sld1:10.4,Sld2:3.4,Sld:45
Blink left " ""
rightbrowanger """

These poses could be made of muscle groups.So you have a list of muscles pose,like left wink. But also general pose, like disgust

I dont know about having a slider for each pose, than a slider which blends in poses/muscles in a list. Also you could have the jaw on it own control you could tweak when you need to.

Also it means you can tweak the rig in the view as the script looks
at is current/realtime state.

I think where both on the same track, but i need a max scripter to help me out.

eek
p.s do you have icq? it would be cool to have a chat about this, send me a PM.

[rhythmone]

Sounds like we might need to step back and define the scope.... It looks like your trying to define how the pose is saved, right?

And I just got an ICQ # 328041675

[eek]

Kinda,

I think it has to be realtime think on the fly. So you can make poses either using the rig or blending, when you need them.

eek

[joie]

HI!, I´ve tried the "BottomLipRig" for MAYA that you posted a while ago and I found myself confused..., it has 3 nodes, 1 for the bottom lip, one for the upper (seems) and one "doubbled constraint" between them that brings the F-V rotation for the bottom lip, but I don´t understand why Bottom lip takes rotation from the middle node. At first I thought it was takken rotation from it because of the "dynamic" pivot situation, but the bottom lip node has the same pivot location although the upper lip moves up or down. So, why don´t you take bottom lip rotation from bottom lip node since it has its rotation values available?, i´m just curious about this.

And sorry for my english

:)

[eek]

Hi Joie,

So, why don´t you take bottom lip rotation from bottom lip node since it has its rotation values available?,

I think that was a rig matt developed for that was based on mine.But its gone through a lot of changes since then, incorporating expression and hopefully blending soon with the help of rthymone.

The rig now incorporates a jaw control which basically now opens the mouth, so you can just key the lip sync basics, before adding everything else. But also enables you to move the lips around over the top, like skin,muscle and bone. And i think the new rig incorporates what youve said.

eek/charles

[joie]

Oh!, what a fast and sort answer, what a pity you use MAX instead of MAYA, hope you make that tutorial soon, but for now I´m becoming sick with that big number of curves, but the key on this is that you have to make this rig once, that´s wonderful.

Keep that good work.

[eek]

Hi people,

Sorry fo the delay, work eats time. The rigs coming along nicely,rhythmone a script/setup in maya. And building a cleaner version,with in scene gui for making poses on the fly, anyway updates coming soon. I just want the rig to be good before i release it.

eek

[skellybobbly]

Hi Eek,

Good to hear that the rig is getting there.

I ,for one, am really looking forward to trying out some new facial stuff with it.:thumbsup: :)


Cheers


Jon

[rhythmone]

The goal of this MAYA file is to start outlining the logic for the corner mouth control. The control needs to be able to move freely in space. The poses need to be storable, both for combinations with other poses and reuse on multiple characters.

At this point I am trying to focus on the core logic, and basic structure, so that the system can be applied to Maya and Max. This is why I used a locator and visual box to represent the slider, I have no idea how sliders are done in Max.

So the specific objectives are:
A - have a slider control that manipulates how much of the pose that the character displays (0 - 100%).
B - to have the stored poses that are not dependent upon the characters scale

DRAFT VERSION 1.0

-------------- Directions ---------------
Move the target1_slider_handle along the Z and it will move the Mouth_corner_driver from the default position towards the pose target.

-------------- Limitations --------------
Head_rig_translator cannot yet be scaled or translated, that is what I am working on now.

----------- Issues --------------
1 - unit measurement is currently in the Z, this should probably be a vector measurement (along with all the other values that relate to the Head rig)?
2 - Maya's node based structure lends itself very favorably to how poses can be combined, keyframed and edited... but how would this work in Max?
3 - What to do with negative slider values? For my workflow I would only see the negative actually applied to the Y (vertical) value.

http://homepage.mac.com/tymznd/FileSharing4.html

[eek]

Hi Rthymone,

Looks very instresting, in max you can either generate sliders via custom attributes or scripting but i dont think it has the ability to create them on the fly..?! Anyway im gunna rebuild the rig this weekend, cleaner and more stable.

goto go, work becones!

eek

[Hugh]

I just quickly whipped up a small script that might be of interest to people here....

There was a lot of talk earlier about how to properly blend poses...

The following script is also implemented as an expression in the attached .mb file.


float $pose1 = Point1Control.Pose1;
float $pose2 = Point1Control.Pose2;

float $maxPose = max($pose1, $pose2);

float $baseConstraint = 1 - $maxPose;
float $pose1Constraint = 0;
float $pose2Constraint = 0;

if($maxPose != 0)
{
float $totalPose = $pose1 + $pose2;
float $pose[];
$pose[0] = $pose1 / $totalPose;
$pose[1] = $pose2 / $totalPose;

$pose1Constraint = $pose[0] * $maxPose;
$pose2Constraint = $pose[1] * $maxPose;
}

Point1_pointConstraint1.Point1BaseW0 = $baseConstraint;
Point1_pointConstraint1.Point1Pose1W1 = $pose1Constraint;
Point1_pointConstraint1.Point1Pose2W2 = $pose2Constraint;


Just having had a quick play around with it, I do see one limitation... It requires an additive mix - ie, to go from one pose to another, you need to bring the new one all the way up to 1 before taking the old one down - however, this is good for properly mixing poses.

I don't see how this can be done any other way, though....

For example:

If you've got a pose at 0.5, and you want to mix that with another pose at 0.5, you want the point to end up halfway between the 'halfway points'....

I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well here....

Do talk a look at the attached file, or put the above script into your own file (if you don't use Maya...)

Edit: Okay, so I can't upload .mb files... THIS (http://www.brokenpipefilms.com/maya/rigging/rig_pose.mb) is the file I was talking about...

[eek]

Hi hugh,

I think, that script and the limitation is similar to micheal comet atribute keyer script where you blend poses down from another, the nice thing about that script is that you can blend at any time frame! At present im rebuilding the rig implementing better m_line interaction between muscle groups, and doing research on combined muscle action, so hopefully will have a new rig built soon, also may possibly build a version in maya this week if i ive got time.

eek

[Hugh]

Sounds cool - while I'm following what's going on in here, I'm not going to be using any rig you release - I want to develop my own, mainly for showreel reasons.....

Still interesting to hear how other people are going about doing it..

[eek]

Thats cool,

Im just developing an idea/aproach taken from lots of ideas and research. I encourage everyone to go for it! We should all connect bouncing ideas off each other, not just relying on conventional wisdom i.e morph targets,bones etc.

eek

[Hugh]

hehe - well, once I graduate (Computer Science degree, last exam on 3rd June), I'm gonna sit down and do some serious thinking on this, and start properly developing my ideas...

Anything I do come up with, that hasn't already been mentioned, I will bring up in here...

[boxcrash]

Hey eek I am still trying to follow this thread.

I am not a expert in sliders and facial animation in Max but that is what I am using. I know you are busy, but I was wondering how the progress of the Max one is coming?

Or has it been put on hold for the Maya version?

Also will the tutorial be in Max?

Thanx, I would love to help but I imagine I would just set you back in progress.:)

[steveblake]

Um yeh. I vote for a Maya Tut.

...But either would be really great!

[animationking]

yeah..i also vote for a maya version...that would be so cool. i cant wait

[animationking]

lol..oops...that was not intentional

[dflipb]

not intentional, but you said what we are all thinking!

what we are all thinking!

what we are all thinking!

what we are all thinking!

LOL :thumbsup:

[zempher]

yes. a maya version would much appreciated

[eek]

I think you guys are trying to tell me something here...mmm. Well luckily i recently got access to maya at work. So will be able to build a rig. It might take a while in the evenings. But it will be really stable and also get me back into the maya flow.

eek

[joie]

Great to hear that!, I´m waiting to see how the hell do you make a cluster-based rig stable... LOL

[eek]

The cluster system will be pretty simple to set up, i may need some help from you guys, on skinning, etc.

eek

[westmeadow]

Hiya,
having trouble trying to keep up with what is happening here! :surprised A facial and full body rig system is being developed for both max and maya (aswell as a tutorial)?? hehe, sorry if i am being a bit slow! :hmm:

Assie :bounce:

[FatAssasin]

So Eek, just wondering, if you're starting on a Maya version of the rig, where does that leave the Max version? Don't leave us Max users hangin'.

[eek]

Hey people,

Im working on both at present, the max version is nearly there and am just about to start on the maya version next week. But i hardly get any time as work eats up all the time i have. So progress is slow. Max is my main software I use. Maya and soft are just one i use accasionally or for work etc.

So dont worry people there getting there, I just wanna make it work really well and be stable and fast.

the progress so far...

basically ive got a nearly complete max version, ive got to make a maya version so we can develope a blend system that will in maya and can be transported into max. Also i need a max scripter to help out translate the maya version etc.

eek

[dflipb]

I'm not in a hurry. Take your time and do it up right. This looks too good to rush. We're just rooting for ya man! :beer:

[joie]

That sounds cool, i´m a MAYA user and could help to develope, just want to be a part of it (new york, new york, sorry, just a joke!), but I really want to improve my facial rigs to help animators to improve their skills, not in my work but in the rest of the world, you know Zaragoza is a small town compared to the WWW

:)

[JeT]

hey eek, forgive me for assuming, but in my ignorance of searching through the pages of this thread, .. i'll just ask. are you still running this rig setup on a modifier stack a hundred miles long?? wouldn't it be much smoother (and STABLE) if all the dummies were just added into a skin modifier? seems more sensible to me, as well as beginning with the pose of an open mouth so as to simplify the evelope process. just my 3 cents, its a much more flexible method of facial animation thats for sure. (vs morph).

[eek]

Hey Jet,

Fixed that problem, I use a skin modifier now, much quicker and more stable also yoy can turn it off which is cool and fix problems that arise quickly.

eek

[JeT]

hey man good stuff, good to see. i bet that modifer list was getting a bit long is all with all the eye and nose and everything else setup :P rockon:airguitar :airguitar

[westmeadow]

Hiya everybody,
i am going to start to make my first character soon and was wondering if i need to do anything special, as i am interested in this rig... especially the facial part!! Any notes before i start?

Assie :bounce:

[eek]

Hey Assie,

Im currently rebuilding the rig, and one important thing is keeping edge loops if your using polys, They define the face and keep important muscle groups working and moving correctly. Also keep the poly count down, and animate work with a un meshsmoothed model.

eek

[westmeadow]

hiya eek,
Thanks again for the reply. Being a noob, i'll have to look into edge loops!! :p Yeh, i was planning on keeping my polycount quite low (and animating unmeshsmoothed). You can find my character designs in this post, where i am struggling to get any feedback (hint hint) :wavey:

My character designs (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60124)

Good luck with the rig, i am sure it's going to rock :buttrock:

Assie

[eek]

Hey people,

Ive started to rebuild the the rig as i was getting bugs appearing, and finding the rig not stable enough for hi res models. Ive started to introduce expressions into the rig. These make it stable but also detachable. Ive got a pic showing just the mouth, ive worked on today, every point has an expression controlling its, movement in XYZ. The muscle line will be bolted onto the expression point, to give added functionality.

eek

[rhythmone]

eek

Yeah, I had the same thing happen. Things became overly complex and then I started to experience massive slowdowns. Ironically I am doing the same thing with the lips as you are.... and am now working with a wrap deformer which completely eliminated the speed problem AND made it easier to detach.... and I suspect/hope save poses.

[3DKnight]

awsome! will this be available to us peons? :)

[eek]

Hi rythmone,

long time no see, yeah i was getting massive slow down. Im still gunna implement the the m-line system on top of the expressions. I was looking around for more research and remebered the making of toy story i had. It discusses PET(patch editing tool) and gepetto, a tool for grouping points and giving them Avars(animation variables) or expressions! So basically im gunna implement Me's (muscle expressions) that bolt the M-lines to them. These are great because you can simulate musles that pinch and pucker and muscles that just pull and push.


3DKnight, yes eventually!

eek

[rhythmone]

Cool....

I am working on the final piece today (upper cheek) and then I hope to run it through some paces and post some pics... I don't think that mine will have as many combinations as yours (not nearly), but it will work for my current project.

I actually feel something in my mind that I haven't been able to pin point yet, but I have only been building one side of the rig, and since I am using a wrap deformer, I think that I will be able to use instancing to drive the other side and probably have a toggle switch for symetrical vs. not....... Im not sure how that will work but my instincts are telling me that there is something there. Everytime I went to build out the other half something kept stopping me.

[eek]

hi,

Im gunna work on the other types of muscle groups today, like the cheek which will pucker and pull.And the forehead. I think i'll have around 3 different types. 1: mouth musles, which you control from the corners, 2: cheek muscle which bulge on contraction, 3: forehead/chin which just contract. The muscle line slider system will bolt onto these. Each muscle is a curve controlled via expression, so you can link muscle to muscle. more to follow. Also i'll make these musle avalibe to put in other rigs etc.

eek - more to follow

[modi]

hey eek, awesome stuff in here, i was wondering if u had a maya version for us to play with. I don't have access to max and i really want to check this out. Cheers.

[JeT]

the reason the slowdowns are happening is from the linking and constant path constraint . I was about mention that i tryed this approach on a simple level on a character that had only the mouth rigged in this way. With all these path constraints and dummys everywhere, max had to think for 5 - 10 seconds every time i tryed to rotate the head. I suggest you use an alternative method lacking the path contraints and just using objects linked to the skull parent.

[JeT]

mind you i havent worked alot with expressions and the like so perhaps that will speed things up, but I think this is becoming too complicated. A simple rig will run smoother than a complex one. that makes 9 cents :P

[eek]

The importance of the path constraints is that it keeps the volume of the face. Floating points are free and give no true structure. Ive divised a method now that incorporates muscle lines controlled via muscle expressions. But linked through skinning rather than linked x-form. Constraints eat machine speed so im reverting to expression. Also there pretty much indestructable and can also be controlled on every axis.

The other thing is that maya is node based which makes everything faster. Im getting to a stage where you just load in the mouth part of the rig and then just skin it up. You then add the muscle you need link them in and skin it up.


eek

[JeT]

hey eek,

oh cool; I haven't had much experience with expressions :P haha im not saying you're doing it wrong! sorry I might have come off a bit harsh. It's just that the initial problems I see with this rigging process is the setup time and the application performance. also, through these expressions, can you limit an objects rotation? without the use of IK? i started a seperate thread with this question.. I'd find this information quite useful ;) keep it up mr eek :p

[eek]

Hey people im still alive,

Just concentration on more animation stuff at the minute. Just saw the Half life 2 demo from E3, pretty amazing stuff as there using the same muscle based system, based on elkmans FACs. Anyway, update will come soon, ive built a new face and starting to rig it!

eek

[boxcrash]

Sweetness..............

Do not worry, I am watching........lingering in the shadows watching and waiting for the "masters" completion.or something like that.:) :wip: :thumbsup: :surprised

[rock]

Thanks Eek. Tremendous thread. Very interesting. Waiting, hoping, praying for the Maya 5 facial rig.

:bowdown:

[eek]

Thankyou so much people for your support, here's a new face im using. Im still sticking with gollum as i think its sufficiently complex to use.

im gunna use 2 types of muscle, linear and sphincter. Linear will drive the cheek, brow eyes, etc. sphinter which are expression driven will drive the mouth. Which muscle lines are bolted on to. Nothing will use clusters anymore, instead skinning.(speed up things)

eek

[luigi]

eeek you have your private messages ful i send you this tbut they dont allow me:


hi eek im veryinterested in your facial rig

i have my own ideas about the rig .

You can see what im doing in this two threads.

rangun (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=43685&goto=newpost)

wiby (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=37111&goto=newpost)

i use two imitate the movement of the muscles bones in rotation and morphs for make special muscles defromations.


I have been in a Kyle Banda (toy story 2 animator director) asking
and havig notes about the facial rig and he told me a lot of thinks.


with bones rotation i have very good result but i will more happy in the bones follow or moves in a path like you helpers do this.

what you do for arrive to do this?


if you want i can send you a max file with a rig for you see what my rigs works.

soon i will make a tutorial and put it in cgtalk with my riga nd with the ideas that kyle teach me.


I use skin to is very quicly to setup with control weigth and more fast in the viewport.

[eek]

hey all,

just started re building the rig. And have began implementing the muscle expressions. Its very quick at present and the muscles seem to work beautifully! with compression, pinching etc. Ill post some more tomorrow. It should support around 5 to 6,000 facial expressions real time. More to come..well tomorrow!

eek

[boxcrash]

Originally posted by eek
It should support around 5 to 6,000 facial expressions real time. More to come..well tomorrow!

eek

Sweet, watching and waiting for those Max tut's, keep up the good work.:thumbsup: :wavey:

[animationking]

hey eek, did u ever make that maya version? if you didnt no hurry...i just wanna make sure i didnt miss it.

[eek]

Not yet, ill start the maya rig next week it'll be maya 4.5 once i get this max rig up and ready. By the way its lookng nice this morning.

eek

[eek]

hi all,

just started implement the cheek muscles etc.. heres a pic of it working:

eek

[boxcrash]

Cool. :)

I have one question though. Does the model have to be in a low poly when this rig is applied?? or can it be applied after it has been textured and smoothed and collapsed to editable poly??

Tanks.

[eek]

hi boxcrash,

Im working with a sub-d model so u put the rig on a base mesh 0 steps, then sub-d it. Texturing..mmm.Havent implemented that yet. Just getting these muscles to work first.

eek

[Cyberdigitus]

WOW. Amazing stuff...

/me speechless ...

first i came across the thread about head mesh topology, and now this. I must say after reading througfh both massive threads my head is filled to the brim, i will have to reread this one from page #17, started to browse through from then.

you really are a rigging master, and what you do show you can puch max to do whatever you want. great work, i'm sure it will have lots of influence on the 3d community.

looking forward to the tutorial, but i understand what you do pretty well. i'm just getting into rigging however, and still need to learn lost and lots (i realy want to master max before moving onto other apps like maya or houdini)

i'm doing a bird rig now. and since i have no former experience it's pretty though. but i'm getting there.

anyway, i'm getting of topic and ranting... just wanted to congatulate you with this great work. keep it up !

oh one more thing... the way skinning works in max really gives me headaches. it's a totaly liniar workflow as far as i understand it now. every time you want to chance something to the model or rig, you have to redo the adjustments. the initial envelopes are worthless, etc etc. its seems you have to manually assign every vertex to get any decent result.

Can you share some of your skinning experience by tips/strategies? I hope that part will get good coverage too in your tutorial.

[eek]

Wow thankyou Cyberdigitus,

I just wanna push max till it breaks then step back one!. As for skinning, i got a fantastic little tip a friend showed me. So you first put all the bones in/rig etc and the skin. Then at say frame 25 you move the arm bones in a basic pose, so you see if the skinnings working or not. Then you work "negatively trimming" by which you say select the all the forearm vertices and weight them to 1 to the forearm. Then you select the upper arm, and the corner vertices of the forearm and slowly slider the wieght slider therefore taking of weightings onto the next, but keeping a totall of 1. You can get the desired result, by scrubbing the time frame.
so in brief:

make a basic keyframe of bones,(to check skinning by scrubbing timeframe)

weight all the desired vertices to 1, to that bone

then select the next bone,and selecting the vertices you want to change and tweak the weighting slider.

So your weight things to 1, then removing(selected vertices) the
weighting onto another bone etc.Its a really quick way of doing stuff.

Also i dont touch the envelope stuff..i just put show vertices on and select the ones i want.

Also a bird rig you may need some constraints, expressions to give u the folding and unfolding..

**back to rig

just started putting in jaw setup..

eek

[boxcrash]

Originally posted by eek
hi boxcrash,

Im working with a sub-d model so u put the rig on a base mesh 0 steps, then sub-d it. Texturing..mmm.Havent implemented that yet. Just getting these muscles to work first.

eek

Darn. The model I would like to use this on and would is already textured, meshsmoothed and stack collapsed to editable poly.

This is great though.:)

[Cyberdigitus]

Eek, i guess the ui would be easier if you put your sliders in diffrent rollouts. you can use Grants CAManager script and the visual maxscript editor for that. Or does the rig now work 'in screen' by selecting the helpers as shown in that video? would it work both ways at the same time?

dunno for CA's but through scripting you can create rollouts on the fly i guess. Anyway I'm just a maxscript beginner so i'm afraid I can't help you out.

a script for saving/loading poses would be great indeed. it seems a lot of work to build a pose every time.

this setup would also be neat to use as a modeling help to define the targets of the morpher modifier, using snapshots of the posed head.

Thanks for the skinning tip. But what i really have dificulties with is that the model has to be finished as well as the rig before you do all the skinning work. anyway, that tip will speed me up. I hope a future release of max will have custom envelope shapes, or even a nonliniar workflow for setting characters up.

It's wonderful you share such an advanced setup with the community, and reveal it's inner workings. Keep it up Eek!

[eek]

edit:sorry had to take link down, geocities must of blown up!
Will be back shortly....

hi,

little lip sync test..


(right-click save target as: )

Its a zip, file containing 2 anims, the second i pulled the mouth corners down, to give a quick different result.Only took hour and a half to do.

eek
p.s please try not to kill the bandwidth its on geocities!

[Hugh]

Your bandwidth seems to have gone already.....

If you want to e-mail me (hugh@vfxtalk.com), I'll put it up on our server - we've got easily enough bandwidth to cover something like this....

[modi]

Hey Eek, this thread is soo looooong, just want to make sure i din't miss out on the Maya rigg. I'm sure everyone here is dying to see it. Cheers - Modi

[Hugh]

Okay - I've uploaded the animation onto my site - our bandwidth should be able to take a pretty big beating....

UPDATE: The file that was on here only had one of the videos in - I've updated it to include the other:

http://www.vfxtalk.com/vids/eek_face_test.zip

(Mirror generously :D donated by VFXTalk.com (http://www.vfxtalk.com) - Online Compositing Community)

[luigi]

hi eek as you said in your private message our rigs are to diferents.in my rig in going to make cheeks movements with morphs targets.

your rig is teh most powerful i have seen as you said "
you move 1 control and i affect everything else slightly"

I have seen your animation test i like a lot the mouth movements but i dont like it the cheeks movement the move a lot down.

normaly this muscle dont moves down this mucles moves up or the lateral muscles of the faces strech the face.

with this righs the cheeks moves down and make a strange movement.

dp you think im right?


http://perso.wanadoo.es/calizp/caraeek.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.es/calizp/smileeek.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.es/calizp/mandibuleeek.jpg

[eek]

Yes,

I think your right on the cheek front, But i think its just placement of the muscles, and tweaking the expressions should fix the problem.

I need to do a fix and attach the muscles slightly differently.

it gets very tricky, defining how muscles move, i could in theory design them to move only lateraly, but it might inhibit the artisic freedom.

eek

[edmundw]

hi eek,

Good job on the rigging and I'm happy to read that you're going to convert it to XSI :applause: :applause: ... But I supposed the plan is fading... No news from it??



Edmund

[eek]

I will build the xsi/maya rigs,

Just very busy at present, I get more time on the max version because i use max at home.So i build the rig at weekends. Only time i got on the maya/soft rig is in the evenings around from 6 to 10.

I'll finish this max version this weekend. Then nex week start the maya rig.I might need some help from u guy's in expressions, set-driven key, skinning etc.

eek

[dvornik]

In addition to that cheek discussion:
I think in the lipsync test he looks like he has no cheekbones. The skin has to slide over the bones. In your test it looks as if the cheekbones themselves were muscles.

[eek]

did a little fix to the face, to fix the cheek problem more to come....

eek

[eek]

I really need to think about how dvornik pointed out muscle works over bone. I think the mouth area is set-up nice it the cheeks i really need to look at.

eek

[eek]

Thankyou very much CG Talk for making the thread sticky! I will endevour to keep everyone informed on the progress of the rig, more will follow!

Thanks again!

eek

[mechanick]

Dear EEk,
Do you have an xsi version of your face rig, coz if so i would love to check it out, I just binned my face morphs and would like totry somthing else, thanks

[eek]

not yet, very busy at work. What version of xsi do u use. Ive only got experience version. Will try and find time this week to start xsi version.

eek

[edmundw]

hi eek,

I'm using xsi 3.01 here... Would love to test out the rig if you're releasing it....


Thanks,
Edmund

[mechanick]

xsi 3.01, and thaks for your interest, goodluck

[Rogue Faction]

cmon eek, i'm sure i'm not the only one dyin for an update, r u stil alive man?:surprised

[ivo D]

is the max version ready.. caus ..theyre would be a tutorial right for max.. rigging the whole thing up etc..

or are you working on all abz at once????????????????:eek: :rolleyes: :surprised


cant wait :?:wavey:

[eek]

:beer:
Sorry for the delay guy's. Trying to fit time in with work is very hard. Also ive been pretty ill these last weeks and other issues to sort out. And yes Rogue Faction, im still alive! Also im trying to keep up with the times. Since hl2 demostrated there facial system it gave me some more ideas. The rig itself is based on 3 muscles. But thes muscles are very hard to work out. I spent 3 months working out only 1!. ITs taking time but i will get there ,also im trying to develop a gui for it, the other thing is that these muscles have to work on other platforms/software.

Im basis a new version on the G-man from hl2, ive built the face and gunna stick the rig in this week, in the evenings.

eek:love:

[rhythmone]

maya users might want to check this facial rig out:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75044

[nottoshabi]

Thanks Rhythmore I have tryed that one but it has some bugs in it. Dont get me wrong its a great set up. I expecialy like the randomization atribute that it has.


Eek thanks for your time and all your hard work.

[pixelranger]

Here's (http://www.rayk.be/pxlranger/gnom/Morphtest_divx_small.avi) a 2 mB divx showing how my facial rig works.
I compiled a version of the scene in my avi for ya in case you want to dl it and have a look at it. I'm sorry, but it's LW-spesific..

Facial Morph rig (http://www.steelronin.com/profiles/PxlRanger/facial_morph_rig.zip)

A simplified version of the model (so that everything runs smooth and in realtime on any system) is included so that the expressions work right away without you having to model something to making them work...
Everything is done in Layout without any plugins.
I made two expressions for each morph. Lets use the Morph that opens up his mouth for this example.

The first expression says "The value for this morph is beein controlled by the control Null's movement in the range from 0-100mm in the y axis (based on its parents coordinates, of course...)".
I call this Expression "Mouth Open control" and it looks like this:

mapRange([Mouth controller.Position.Y],0.000,0.100,0.000,1)

The second one is called "Mouth Open constraint" and says "if the first expression returns a value below zero, keep it zero" and looks like this:

[Mouth Open control]<0.000?0.000[Mouth Open control]

The reason I use this constraint is that if I don't, the Map values will go below zero when I move the control Null below y=0mm. And since I'm going to use the Null's range from 0 to -100mm for another morph, I cant let it have any influence on th Mouth.open morph when its below y=0mm.

I control 4 morphs with each control Null. One from 0 to 100mm in the x axis, one from 0 to -100mm in the x axis, one from o to 100mm in the y axis and the last from 0 to -100mm in the y axis.

One thing that's nice to keep in mind is that you should try to use two "opposing" morphs for the Null's movement above and below a certain axis. I mean... the Mouth.open morph is influenced when the Null is below y=0mm, therefore there should be a morph where the mouth closes that is being influenced from the moment the Null goes above y=0mm.
This way there are sort of just two real movements being controlled by the Null, one in the x axis, and one in the y axis with the base object as the middle position in a nonlinear morph. Smart, eh? :)
The other benefit you have from using opposing morphs is that you don't get the problem you see with the smile morph and the morph where he pulls back the corners of his mouth. Here you se that there is no "follow through" when the Null crosses the x=0mm, and if I was animating him I would have to make a key for the Null object with tension=1 everytime the Null crossed x=0mm. Otherwise we'd get that jerky start on the "opposing morph".

The 4 expressions on the eyelids were even simpler! I just made a new expression, right clicked on Eye Target.Position.X and chose "Append to Expression". Then I applyed the expression to a morph called eyelid.right and started to move the eye target to see the effect. If the effect was too small I just multiplied the expression with e.g. 2:

Expression name: Eyelid Right control
Syntax: [Eye target.Position.X]*2

I didnt use any constraints for the eyelid expressions because they seemed to regulate eachother well by themselves. So why interfere with nature, right? ;)

Just open the scene file I posted at the top, grab the eye target in the front view and start "looking around".

You have to move it in front view to be able to move it in x and y at the same time.

[joie]

PixelRanger, I love you much, I thought about that possibility but never realized..., seems to work fine and funny, let´s transport it to MAYA someday...

[Robbert]

cmon Eek we are waiting :rolleyes:
Can't wait to see your rigging max tutorial......
do you have a homepage?

[eek]

Im building a website as we speak, so hopefully should have the rig to download next week sometime. And following tutorials...

hoorarrr!

eek

[Antropus]

Hey guys! Nice work :)

Take a look at my facial rigg system WIP and tell me what you think:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40976&goto=lastpost

http://www.antropus.com/imagessenza/rigmuscle.jpg

cya

[nottoshabi]

Atropus thats pretty cool I like to se your concept, but I dont speak spanish. Can you translate an over view here?

[FatAssasin]

Yeah, I really like your setup. I went to the 3D4all forum and downloaded all your screenshots and avi's, but unfortunately I don't understand a word of the written text. But I think I understand what you're doing for the most part.

I use Max, and I think most of what you're doing can be transfered over using Reactor controllers, bones, and morph targets. I noticed there was another Max user on there that posted some max files of his facial rig, but it seems like his website is down, along with all the files he posted in the thread. :hmm:

To bad, because 3D is the universal language! :)

[kr3ml]

ekk , me needs tutorial :drool:

[boxcrash]

I too am waiting patiently for Max.........

I would just like to say I am following this still and think you are doing a great job, eek.

Thanx for all the hard work and effort, you rock.:buttrock: :) :applause:

[eek]

Hi people,

So ok im gunna finish this rig before i do anything else. I'll finish this week in the evenings posting pics each night. The most complicated part of the rig is the cheek setup as you have muscle to bone interaction. And considering just the mouth muscle took 3 months to work out!

As for the tutorial im making it in image ready and posting it on my site. Its gunna be very very complex, and only you guy's with good knowledge of expressions,constraints, skinning are gunna understand it. But ill try and make it as simple as possible.

eek

[luigi]

great news eek waiting the tutorial impacient :)


:wip: :buttrock:

[ivo D]

great news indeed ;)

you know im sitting on the edge of my chair allready :eek: :thumbsup:

[shapeshifter]

Originally posted by eek
As for the tutorial im making it in image ready and posting it on my site. Its gunna be very very complex, and only you guy's with good knowledge of expressions,constraints, skinning are gunna understand it. But ill try and make it as simple as possible. eek

I would love to see an in depth tutorial. Better more complex than "too easy". Thanks for the time & effort you put into this!

[eek]

Hey people,

so as i mentioned im finishing it this week hopefully.. heres a pic of a small update finshied the cheek/lower eye on one side, the eye actually uses the same muscle for the face..



eek

[luigi]

for me the expresion of the face are wonderful

lov special the central face.

good fix of the cheeks now waiting to see whow the system works in animation.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

waiting to have in my hands your tutorial.

[Pttr]

If you create a Maya version I love you! :love:

[eek]

Once ive finished this version/tutorial. I will probably develop it for maya, as its node based and very stable.

-eek

[eek]

SP4..

This is annoying ok tomorrow our system gets moved over to service pack 4! eek, so any work i do here will be corrupted at home and sent to you. So im stuffed and am only gunna be able to finish it this and following weekends, sorry for the inconvience!. Dammit!

This is really annoying because i wanted to finish it this week!

eek

[okkio]

Hey eek, just another post of support, I have been silently following this thread for some time now, and just wanted to let you know that I'm really impressed by all I've seen so far, I can't wait to get into the tutorial you are putting together!

Keep up the good work, and thanks for sharing your knowledge, and hard work with this community!

[luigi]

hi eek i think there are a patch in microsoft website for resolve the problem with the corrupt files.

wew have this problem tree weeks ago and someone fixes it looking in the microsoft website.

go to the discreet website for help

:)

[eek]

So i went a bit mad this weekend and decided to rebuild the rig, its far better and a cleaner setup, a pic:


..Should be finished on tuesday,wednesday then ill carry on with the tut.

eek

[Robbert]

Great!!
Can you post a beta test setup now??
Maybe the proffesionals could give some critics before you make the tutorial?

[kr3ml]

Maybe the proffesionals could give some critics before you make the tutorial?

:argh: ekk , is a proffesional :D

[ivo D]

well like i sayd.. i love it.. very cool! :-)


ps: beer is waiting:beer:

cant wait to use the rig

[rhythmone]

EEK... its Charles.... remember me?.... after a long distraction working on some character rigging stuff, I am now able to get back to my facial rig.... and it hit me today.... I remember the delima I had before.

Since the eyes are symetrical... I can build only half of the rig, then import it in again onto itself (to act as the other side) and simply instance the geo of the second import and scale that to -1 on the x axis.(this is used as a wrap deformer for the other side)

.... I love this approach because I don't have to build both sides of the rig... I knew there was a reason why I never wanted to build the other side of the rig.... funny how some time away can clear your mind.

[eek]

I get it , cool!..

im just finishing this rig atm... few problems to sort out though, muscle issues etc.

eek

[El-d]

Just adding myself to the eagerley awaiting queue.
It's looking fantastic, and I can't wait to see it in action.

:applause:

now to download the sp4 fix myself ;) ..... although I only got caught by a random auto update max crasher .

El-d

[future14]

well, eek, i've read thru the threads and saw ur developement on this facial rig system, i'm so impressed, and it is some awesome stuff man!!! keep up the spirit man, i'm also trying to develope on it, although i'm not pro enough, hehehe, but i hope to have a try......

anyway, thnx for the contribution man!!!!:thumbsup:

[RAINpit]

really now...i'm new to cgtalk (not cg)
and i'm just moved by how this thread developed over time and so did the ideas in it (and thatz what leaves me speachless)
i use maya and xsi and i pray u haven't forgotten about us maya/xsi users with that tutorial
waiting 4 this one like crazy

:buttrock: :love:
love ya bro
and remember....just keep swimming :)

[KazuyaMochu]

hello, I'm not been able to follow the thread very well, bit it looks like something big!

is there any way you can put this into a low poligon face? or even model, for muscle movement?

cheers, and thanks for taking the time to make a tutorial for us here

Kazuya Mochu

[eek]

hi Kazuya,

is there any way you can put this into a low poligon face? or even model, for muscle movement?



Yes you can, the low poly face the better, and it could be put into a full rig. Ive been thinking about this idea for sometime, whereby you use it for shoulder upper torso rigging.

More to follow people, just very busy atm with work.


eek

[Gelero]

amazing! nine months and still no tutorials?

cmon eek!!!!!
:p

[Groovedog]

Fantastic thread!

I'm a student and this thread intrigues me. After reading all 25 pages of this discussion, your method seems like the way to go.
We have just finished our initial studies of modeling and texturing at school and we will be moving to rigging and animation.

I have been going through the tutorial files and help files included with max. I have played with morph targets and (probably because I am a beginner) they feel very limited in their movement whereas your rig offers a much broader range of motion and expression. The is also an example of an FFD morph.

I looked through the 25 pages and it is very possible I might have missed it but have you posted a recent scene file with the rig. I would very much like to see it in an attempt to better understand the setup and the discussion. I am getting lost in the constraints but researching in attempts to catch up. About midway through the discussion you switched to using skin. Any chance we can even see a beta version of that scene.

Regards,

Groove

[MadS]

Originally posted by Gelero
amazing! nine months and still no tutorials?

cmon eek!!!!!
:p

My thoughts exactly. :rolleyes:

[Fossor]

I'm silently following this thread for the last months.
Amazing stuff! Very interesting! :thumbsup:
I'm trying to setup a rig in Max using bones. Youve probably seen a rig used on cane-toad and alike from Antropus. Well i'm not a professional, but i think i have some progress.
I'm using dummies with a displaced pivot as a bones for a lips.
All dummies connected to the mouth center and/or to the lower jaw bone. You can see results here:
Goblin mouth expressions (http://www.geocities.com/fossor_online/goblinfacialexp.html)
If you have questions or critiques, post them in this thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88129)

[kr3ml]

Ekk ....... where are you? :rolleyes: and where is your tutorail? :scream:

[future14]

tat's great tat's great....the day is coming, thnx eek!!!

[eek]

Hi people,

Sorry for the delay. The rig and tutorial are coming, Ive just been very busy and just came back from being in New York. Im currently trying to optimize the rig down to be faster and quicker. And to put in more controls. It will happen, as i want this tutorial for myself to remember how everything works!

Sorry for the delay people, i just want it to be right for you guy's and myself.

eek.

[ambient-whisper]

why not release a version that you have... and then patch it up. but atleast get the idea of how its put together out. instead of adding yet more controls ;)

[empty thought]

eek,
i've plugged this thread
over at cgbug, maybe this will get things moving, ;) :p

CG Bug (http://www.cgbug.com/x5/index_e.asp)

[eek]

Hi people,

sorry for the delays guys, Im just very busy at the minute with my current day job -character animator/rigger. Im gunna work on this rig this weekend and hopefully get something out for you guy's.

Empty thought,

Thankyou very much! you didnt need to do that. But its much appreciated!

eek
p.s see you guy's in Copenhagen

[salmonmoose]

This looks fantastic, I'm itching to try it out.

Eek, I know you are using max 5.1, but do you see any reason that this is going to disagree with my max6 models or max6 in general?

[ivo D]

aah nice eek !;)

and yea ,see you in Denmark!:-)

lol

i still got :beer: :beer: :beer: for ya

but its a good point about max 6.. caus many things get badly messed up in the max when you use max 5 stuff

[eek]

It will work for all versions.

eek

[jscheel]

Wow eek, your work is amazing. I must say though, I don't think that I could ever be a character rigger. I know, or am willing to learn enough, to animate, but I could not do what you do every day!

[El-d]

Eek,I think I can say for alot of interested people......

.. is there any chance of an early christmas present?

eagerly awaiting.
El-d
PS Have a good christmas

[Tughan]

Yeah, give us our Tutorial Eek... :buttrock:

[eek]

hi jscheel,

Im a character animator and rigger working on the warhammer online project, the facial rig is a spare time thing. And hopefully more will follow, and a tutorial.

eek

[GunBoss]

Eeeeekkkk!!
The natives are getting restless!!!! ::bounce: :drool: :bounce:

[tyio]

take your time Eek, this is already fantastic to share your gift with us

:beer: :beer: :beer:

[eek]

A little update, basically exporting the setup onto a new character, took about 4 hours.

Added cheek controls, eye and brow.

Please right-click and save target as:
http://www.geocities.com/eekinc/about.jpg

eek

[El-d]

Its a no show. Looks like geocities doesn't want to share.

Eagerly waiting.
El-d

[tyio]

right click and save man :thumbsup:

[dflipb]

It's lookin real smooth Eek!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[future14]

thnx to eek and sithwarlord, i'm am now trying to use this facial setup for my recent animation project..... just started the setup yesterday, completed the mouth area, some opinion?

here r some screenshots :
http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/pumpkinlife/test001.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/pumpkinlife/test002.jpg

[ivo D]

looks great.. maya i see, cant wait to use it on the head im making, but its under construction :S

[dflipb]

It looks like it's going good, but let's see it move. That's where the crits begin:thumbsup:

[future14]

just completed the facial setup and added character sets for the setups...... pretty ugly huh:O..ahahah...i also attach with a simple testing for the facial setups, xvid avi format.....

http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/pumpkinlife/final001.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/pumpkinlife/final002.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/pumpkinlife/testing001.avi


download Xvid coded here : http://www.xvid.org/

[dflipb]

it's coming along! I think the nose is having an influence problem. it looks a bit rubbery to me. Like there is no carteladge at the end to make the bulb. But it is definately looking alive! Can't wait to see more!

[ivo D]

looks great.. , just 2 things that ican see, the noxe ,whats allready sayd, and the lower eyelids ,move to much with the mouth.

really looks great do ;)

[eek]

Hey,

Thats looking cool!

Ive added a bunch of sliders to the setup now, plus a friend of mine wrote a great script to create poses! Anyway here you go:

Please right-click and save target as:
http://www.geocities.com/eekinc/sliders.jpg

its for more personal pieces and 10second club animations.

eek

[ivo D]

looking great eek, looks like youll make it for 3dfestival after all

[tyio]

great man :beer:

fantastic job, you'll make me stay with max :thumbsup:

[eek]

I'll be at the festival, talking about the rig, chatting etc etc. gotta get my ticket this week.

eek

[ivo D]

yea.. chatting, and chatting.. :D we'll get a beer or 2 ;)

[dflipb]

Hey if anyone out there is going to be there with a video cam, I'd like to buy a copy of it! :drool:

[ivo D]

offtopic.. i probably will have..

but about that rig in maya.. lets see some more test vidz

[future14]

thnx to dflipb, ivo D, eek,

thnx for some valuable advise, i'm now fixing the current setup, and working on another face as well, update ASAP

[ivo D]

im not sure, maybe my head will be up here to soon, with some help.. in a month or so (highpoly one)

gl with rigging it up!

[bolbacool]

Hey Eek,
I come back to this thread after a long long time, and I see that you continue to use the little script I wrote some months ago ;)

Did you improve the script or is it my old one ?

I have some free time now, and i would be glad to help you to improve the script and if I could help in some way to your incredible facial setup, just tell me !

bye

bolbacool

[eek]

I love this place! And thank all the people who helped me with the rig, this forum is a such a great meeting place.

Bolbacool,

Your script is fantastic, is takes the rig to another level! having the ability to create poses! Im desperately looking for help in the scripting side of the setup. Ive spent the last 3 months trying to make a slider based system for the rig, so e.g you can blend poses made from the CA together. Not just from one to another but blend them also.

Bolbacool I be happy and very thankful for you to jump on board helping me with the setup. I know its gunna be difficult, but i know we can work it out.

I'll send you a PM.

Oh, and thanks again people.

eek

[bolbacool]

Cool

I'm happy that my script helped you :bounce:

If I remember, my script was not as complete as I wanted, but I didn't have time to do more, I was very busy.

I have some new ideas for the script now, but it would be great if you send me your setup in order to update my ideas to your work ...

bolbacool

[eek]

Bolbacool,

Im still using your script!, i tried in vain to understand the blending math involved but it was way over my head!. The script i use is the original one you gave me!. It works great, but doesnt have the blending capabilities.

oh btw a little update, including the whole animation character:[(right-click and save target as: )
http://www.geocities.com/eekinc/update.jpg

eek

[Quizboy]

Hi, I've started working my way through reading all the posts in this thread since 2002 but while I'm in the process of doing that, I thought I'd go ahead and ask:

Is this rig suited for facial animation of high-resolution photorealistic characters like this one:

http://www.xinxang.com/sk/skfacesnap.jpg http://www.xinxang.com/sk/skfacesnap002.jpg

Would the resulting animation be too "cartoony" for this type of character?

and,

Is this mesh just too heavy to handle the rig?


I'm making a short animation as end project for animation school which needs to finished in early June. Is it plausible for me to apply this rig to this model and get it animated on top of the blendshapes and other rigging I've got to do for the body in time, or am I better off just sticking with facial blendshapes for this type of mesh - given the timeframe?

To put the question another way, I'm a newb where it comes to facial animation, but I would like to achieve subtle more nuanced animation if at all possible. How long would it take me to implement this facial rig into my existing face mesh as shown above?

[ivo D]

hi Quizboy

i think i can answer your quistion.. eek correct me if im wrong..

your topology is good, so it will work with the rig..

and no it wont give cartoon like animation,

the rig is all done for the sake of good deformation when used,
so it will look realistic.

for that the flow of your mesh must be right, and yours comes close enough.

how heavy it will be i dont know, but it can be used on highpoly meshes.

i wouldnt make to much sence if all the time was put into making a realisticly way of rigging up a face, for good movement , and that i than couldnt be used on a realistic head :D



and if it would be to heavy, than you could always make a very low poly version of your head, link that one also to the same rig, than hide the poly's of the highpoly head, so you only see the low poly version when animating.

k .. eek just correct me ,when im wrong :D

[eek]

hi and thanks Ivo bud,

Yep your face looks pretty clean, edge loops look good and youve got exellent topology. Maya if thats what you using will handle this setup very,very well. As maya's node based it's brilliant at effective crushing complex math and expressions.

The key with any setup is poly count the more face the slower it will get as it relies on vertex movement, your actually controlling the face in the view, i.e its skinned to the setup. Nothing is bufferd other than poses, via set driven key.

To implement the rig into this face wouldnt take long. I did it and it took about 4 hours. For you maybe 6, 8 tweaking. Then adding the sliders and poses about a day.

Ive still got more to tweak(scripting etc), then ill convert everything to maya to make it work.

eek

[ambient-whisper]

Originally posted by Quizboy
Is this mesh just too heavy to handle the rig?


one suggestion for you would be to put the mouth into more fo a slack position ( a bit open ). not much. but enough to get around the lips easier.

[Quizboy]

hi eek, ivo, ambient -

thanks for the response, that sounds very encouraging. eek, can you tell me exactly what I have to do next to get started? or do I wait 'til you've converted the latest version of your rig to maya?

that's no problem, 'cause i have to start working on textures anyway which is going to take me some time. can you please send me a pm heads up or e-mail when it's ready to go?

[ivo D]

hehe when its ready this will be frontpage news :beer:

easy to spot ;)

[eek]

That mesh looks fine. I have to finish the rig and work out this scripting side with Bolbacool, firstly. As this part enables us to blend poses together, ie morpher style but with CA poses!

eek

[dflipb]

HA it should be Front page for the whole month!

[ivo D]

cgnetworks, 3dtotal, cgtalk, 3dbuzz, 3dlinks, al over the place..

and all people will do eventually is complain, bastards:D

i will prayse the script and the setup, hail to the rig!:buttrock:

[eek]

hehe funny that!, i keep on seeing links to this thread all over the place!

eek

more to come...

[dflipb]

we shall build a shrine and have an etournal tourch and call it

EEK

people will come to pay homage.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

LOL

[Tughan]

Hail the king baby! :buttrock: (where the heck I've heard that?)

[animationking]

maybe uve heard that from me..my quote is 'bow to the king' HAHA

[Tughan]

Heh, no. I think I've heard it from Bruce Campbell. Evil Dead movies.

Anyway, it's nothing to do with eek's cool facial rig. :)

[IkerCLoN]

Hi from Spain, guys! I've been following this amaziwonderfantastic thread for one week. I discovered it recently, and I want to offer my support to eek and, mainly, to all the people who have been following this thread for these two years. I'm kind of nervous with the date of release of this script, and I've read the whole conversation one week ago! I cannot imagine what you guys are feeling waiting for so much time ;)

I say too "Hail to the rig!" and "Eek, will you marry me, dear?" (well, you don't have to answer the last question :p ). I was doing facial animations with morphers in 3D Studio MAX (ecs...), and this is one of the best ways I've ever seen to produce the correct and natural way the muscles move :bowdown:

[bolbacool]

Hi all,

I've started to rewrite the script to control the setup. It's quite simple for the moment, but I think it's a good base. For those who read the thread since the beginning, and know a little about my script, here is a little list of what it can do now :

- The poses are stored directly into the control object of the setup, and not in a file like the old one
- the script is divided in 2 parts : a "Pose Creator", where you can control all the attributes of the setup, give the pose a name etc., and a "Pose Editor", where you can blend the poses.

I will add many more functions like exporting the poses to import it in another file, organize poses, give a pose an image etc.

I will post some screenshots in few days

Eek, I really have to test my script with your rig, so it would be nice if you would send me the setup :rolleyes:

[eek]

Hi Bolbacool,

I'll get you the rig out today, ill be online so you can catch me all day.

Btw please could you send me your script so we can work out ideas.

eek

[eek]

ok ive had a little time tonight, so i did a quick web cam ref test. No mocap stuff was used just hand animated.

AVI:
(please right-click and save target as: )
http://www.geocities.com/eekinc/quick_ref_test.avi

Quick pic:

[ivo D]

ow boy ,ow boy its great.. i got the premiere. thanks eek :rolleyes:

just awsome!! you have done it,
after all this hardwork, i probably aint done yet anyway.. but i wish you lots of funn with the rig now its all comming togetjher for you.. n'joy.. and test the S*** out of it :bowdown:

[tyio]

:beer: :buttrock:

impect:thumbsup: :bowdown:

[ivo D]

Originally posted by bolbacool
Hi all,

I've started to rewrite the script to control the setup. It's quite simple for the moment, but I think it's a good base. For those who read the thread since the beginning, and know a little about my script, here is a little list of what it can do now :

- The poses are stored directly into the control object of the setup, and not in a file like the old one
- the script is divided in 2 parts : a "Pose Creator", where you can control all the attributes of the setup, give the pose a name etc., and a "Pose Editor", where you can blend the poses.

I will add many more functions like exporting the poses to import it in another file, organize poses, give a pose an image etc.

I will post some screenshots in few days

Eek, I really have to test my script with your rig, so it would be nice if you would send me the setup :rolleyes:


so its a little like catoolkit - cat animation toolkit.

there you can make poses save them as file.. or put them in a library, use them in any rig.
and can also save animation sequances and blend poses and animations together as one. giving animation 1 40% influence and animation 2 60%

or did i understand it wrong, dont know how the scripting works, maybe you can get the info that is needed out of that plugin or something, but hell , if it works its good ;)

but just wanted to say, they have blending to ,not facial , but just rig

[eek]

hi Ivo,

Were hopefully going to introduce blending into the script, via a slider so you pick a pose and blend it into it. Its pretty complex stuff though. As it numerical values that your changing on the fly/realtime. There being added up or subtracted realtime- difficult stuff, but were getting there.

eek

[bolbacool]

hi,

my script have only "blending poses" capabilities, and can't blend an entire animation.
I just started to test my script on eek's setup. There are some bugs for the moment, but it will work !
I'll post some screenshots tonight ...

bolbacool

[ivo D]

yea must be very hard, to blend animation..aspecialy with different amount of bones and setups.

i wish you look, hope u can get rid of the bugs

[bolbacool]

After some bugs fixes, I think I can say that it works ! :bounce:

Here are some screenshots of the interface, and how it works.

http://julien.bolbach.free.fr/ftp/script/Screenshots/

For the moment, it becomes very slow with only few poses. I have some ideas to optimize it, but i can't say how faster it will be.
I made some tests on how put keys on poses. It will not work in autokey mode (because of sliders refresh), and i don't how to have it working ... All will be on set key mode with a key button on each pose.
I have some other ideas to add functions to my script, i'll work on it as soon as possible ...

bolbacool

[ivo D]

hhmm .. looks nice..

you could make your own auto key, just make a button.. , when that one is set you get some script thing running that when you move an object it will create a key , just like auto key.

or something:surprised

[eek]

Well people,

Its finally coming together, thankyou bolbacool. I think you and i are working on something really special here!. More to follow people..

Bolba, im online all day, so we can work out somemore...

eek

[future14]

hi guys, it's great to gather here man, i just completed the setup for guy i posted last time, with a test lipsync video clip... pls give some comment!! thnx:D

-video clips:-
download divx http://www.divx.com
http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/pumpkinlife/testLIP.avi

-screenshot:-
http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/pumpkinlife/finalFace001.jpg

[nottoshabi]

Verry good future14. I like the setup, how long did it take you to do that? Is it easy to duplicate for other characters?

I watched the avi. And 2 things kinda stood out a little. One was the upper lip in the corner when he opened his mouth.

www.finalestudios.com/mike/Face_01.jpg

2) On the right hand side the chick bone moves in and out when he talks, it kinda looks like its breathing up there.

www.finalestudios.com/mike/Face_02.jpg

Over all I think its good. :beer:

[ivo D]

vertex weighting problem to a couple of spot yea, and the topology might be off

overall movemtn looks convincing do:thumbsup:

[eek]

Hi people,

Heres a little update , just testing poses i can get out of the rig:

Large:
(please right-click and save target as)
http://www.geocities.com/eekinc/faces_large.jpg

Small:

[tyio]

great eek :thumbsup:

[eek]

hi people,

little lip-sync test:

Please right-click and save target as:
http://www.geocities.com/eekinc/liptest.avi


This used Bolbacool script in onjunction with the base rig sliders. Its pretty quick just to test out poses about 1 and half hours.

There's a few tweaks we need to make, plus i think having an inner mouth helps enomously, so ill add that.

eek

[ivo D]

looks great.. some points do.. the start of the sentince.. saying i, could be some faster movement on the mouth.. it seems slow..

in the beginning is lower lips get pointy in the middle..

inner mouth control and an option for the tongue would be cool

nice going bud:thumbsup:

[eek]

hehe cheers ivo,

Man i havent done lip sync in ages!, just a quick test really.

eek

[IkerCLoN]

Hi to all again! I was re-reading the whole thread, and a couple of questions crossed my head. May you answer them, eek? :D

- I suppose you have continued developing the same "node to path" rig that you used with Gollum model, but now you are using another model from your own. Ok, so here goes the question... the skinning process of the model is done automatically? Or you have to set the skin envelopes por each point of the rig? Sorry if you have already talk about that, but I could not find this, and as I was playing around with some XSI's facial rigs, I would to know that ;)

And the other question... oh, man, I can't remember... Maybe next time...
:thumbsup:

Thanks!

[eek]

Hi IkerCLoN,


The Rig as you say does inheritly use a node to path, but ive also recently added functionality of expressions. There is now a base set of expressions, which itself drives the node to path. These expression, are at the top on the tree in terms of structure i.e everything gets bolted onto them. But they also have dynamic links assigned to them through contraints. For instance: -

expression(a) - > driver for NTP
<-contraint driver->
(dynamic link)

These expressions are the backbone of the rig, and they allow the rig to be place onto other models whilst keep animation data.(via numerical slider value)

In terms of skinning it takes me around 4 hours to manually skin the face to the points. Not long really. This itself adds another set of functionality to rig, as a vertex can have a 50/50% ratio to two vertices allowing for skin to slide and compress whilst keeping the volume of the whole face.

Sadly Max doesnt have automatic skinning.

Hope this help.

eek

[ivo D]

but to clear it all up, everything needs to be skinned first, before the rig can have any effect on the mesh.?

[eek]

Yep- thats correct.

eek

[Tughan]

Yes :)

[Tughan]

Oops... Eek you're 5 minutes faster man :)

[IkerCLoN]

A lot of thanks for your explanation. Now I have a much more clear concept of your work ;)

Thanks!

[stevenbhn]

Any chance you can muster up a simple rig in max and do a turial of the principals ad techniques.

it would send thousands into fits of histeria

[eek]

Hi Stevenbhn,

Im going to use my rig in a short film im working on, So ill definately being making a tutorial.(so i dont forget it!). We just want to get the setup in a really good state first.

Bolbacool, ill be online this week so we can dicuss some more, thanks again for your help!.

eek

[future14]

that's great man... can see it works on some animation... eek, thanks for ur inspiration for the facial setup, althought the animation i did, the facial setup i did still not the perfect one...but i will try the best

[future14]

hi guys...i had completed my final animation for this semester.using the facial setup tat inspired by eek and fellows from this thread........thnx again to everyone who gave me inspiration and advises.......... the lipsync part still got some problem.will fix it later.....



http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130828

thnx again ............................thgis thread really great
:thumbsup:

[Samba]

Hello eek,

I just found this thread and would really appreciate if you could post the link where I can download your Max version of the Facial Rig. I loved the results!

Thanks much

[marktsang]

hi all,
eek where are you, i have just found this thread a few weeks ago, been following with interest, but you seem to have disappeared - or is this discussion continued elsewhere?
regards
mark

[marktsang]

hi all,
eek where are you, i have just found this thread a few weeks ago, been following with interest, but you seem to have disappeared - or is this discussion continued elsewhere?
regards
mark

[eek]

Hi Mark,

Sorry just been very busy of late, getting ready for 3d festival and working!. Also helping out with quadraped rigs etc etc. I will get back to the rig after the festival - still have a few bugs to iron out.

eek

p.s hehe im still alive.

[Quizboy]

eek, tell us about yourself please. what you do now and what your background is...

when referring to this thread i told someone it was by a guy who had worked on the gollum rig, but then someone else told me i was wrong. but i had gleaned that from an earlier post in this thread.

can you just give us the straight scoop on you?

and don't neglect a working maya version of your rig...:applause:

[eek]

At present im the animator at Climax, Nottingham working on the Warhammer Online project, where i animate and rig all the creatures e.g, goblins, horses, skaven, halflings, rats, plaguebearers. Doing runs, climbs, deaths, attacks, idles, walks etc, etc.

Previous to this i worked at Framestore, working on Dinotopia. I worked on the Zippo character, animating shots, interacting with live actors.

The idea for the rig was a mixture of the amazing gollum setup, my work at Framestore and Pixar Avar setup. I didnt work on the gollum setup, that was Bay Raitt and his team at Weta. I just loved its face so modelled it and added my rig.

As for a Maya, XSI version its in the works. Making the setup good a stable is the first thing. Things like 'Set Driven' key in maya arnt in max so this is why we had to work out a script for it.
I used the ideas that weta researched on the muscles of the face, using paul elkmans FACS.

So my ideas and research are taken from all over the place, the face is a tricky problem, how muscles contract and expand is rather incredible and the ability to keep volume but stretch is amazing.

hope this cleared stuff up,

eek

[Samba]

Hi Eek,

Thanks for replying. Could you post a link to the Max version of your rig? I tried downloading it from a previous message in this thread but it didn't work.

Samba.

[Quizboy]

Thanks a lot for that mr. eek, keep on kicking ass.

[mmkelly011881]

stayin aliiive...

[eek]

im still alive, very busy atm milestone time. I did post some stuff but it went in the "hacker period". I was saying im gunna add sticky lips, into the rig. And rework the cheeks, also to start a maya port.

eek

[soshiant]

why dont you use splines together with skin? I think it is easy and does the same thing, also your mod stack is clean(only 2, skin
HSD or meshsmooth) you can achive the same result.Also you can use your objs edges as shapes( in poly and patch) and curves (in NURBS) then you can have a script or attribute to controll it. you can also create some shapes to specify spline's knots move through them( with maxscript i think).by working with splines you have a better control on lips, vertical and horizental can combined together.
if you guys think it's better let me know.

[soshiant]

why dont you use splines together with skin? I think it is easy and does the same thing, also your mod stack is clean(only 2, skin
HSD or meshsmooth) you can achive the same result.Also you can use your objs edges as shapes( in poly and patch) and curves (in NURBS) then you can have a script or attribute to controll it. you can also create some shapes to specify spline's knots move through them( with maxscript i think).by working with splines you have a better control on lips, vertical and horizental can combined together.
if you guys think it's better let me know.

[eek]

Thats what i do use, but i have very complex expression written into controlling the spines, to keep volume throughout.

eek - more to come...

[eek]

just had a thought of combining skin simulation into the rig, i.e round the eyes, cheeks etc. Gunna use basic sim cloth to start but if it works write my own into it.

btw , im looking into making a new face, for an updated version.
more to come!...

eek

[eek]

My head just exploded!, i may have found a way to create the poses without using a script, but they may be hardwritten in. My heads still spinning....

you would still get full control over each key part, eg corners of mouth etc etc.

*thinking out loud*
may need frozen transforms

more to come.

eek

[the_zed_axis]

the forum could turn into the most dramatic suspense filled movie ever lol
32 pages of waiting arghghghghghghghghghgh wish i could offer some constructive comments but i am not a rigger but i would love to animate and from what i hear bones are more dynamic in posing facial expressions then simple morphs and you have it all figured out
well eek its been said before and i am gonna say it again U DA KING
waiting .............

[axylfyre]

this is just an idea..but have you thought of porting this out for lightwave users? i am doing some facial anim and i really could use something like this. its amazing what you've done here!

have a nice day
axylfyre

[eek]

how are expressions handled in lightwave?, do you have an editor. Also if you have path constraints then your pretty much covered. I would love to do a port to most software, i just need a team of people to help me.

eek

[eek]

finished a quick gui test, of a base viewport gui. This is the first version and it should be finished tomorrow.

http://www.geocities.com/eekinc/gui_test.zip - please right-click and save target as:
(or my link will die)

Im currently looking for beta testers, to test out the rig, check bugs,improvements.But we tell you more about this tomorrow.
eek

[Boa]

Wow, that looks very intuitive. I'm just starting with character animation. So I don't know whether my feedback could be useful to you in your beta test. Maybe ... if you want to make it foolproof :)

Boa

[skellybobbly]

Hey Eek,


Just send me the setup and I'll get beta testing.
Any more on the character rig you were working on aswell?


Cheers


Jon

[hamu73]

wow this looks really awesome...any updates on the tutorial??
haven't read all of the thread but this looks really awesome
thanks

if you still need some testers I could do it aswell

[coop]

Hey Eek-

I'm dying to try this out- I didn't know you could set this up in max - I've made bone and morph target UIs in maya, but not in max-

jeff cooperman
senior animator
shaba games

[Samba]

Hi Eek,

The test looks great! I'd be glad to beta test the setup in Max. I am currently doing some facial animation using Face Station and lots of pointers from Jason Osipa's "Stop Staring book".

Cheers,
Samba

[eek]

Sorry if ive been away,

Currently working on my rigging website, and hopefully adding this into one of the tutorials. Currently also working on customisation so the rig can be put on different faces. So working on a custom gui, driving different expression values to change the shape of the mouth. Im trying to get it up to a stage where it can be used for feature production, so stability and customisation is very important. I should have some time this weekend to finish off the setup.Fixes needed: cheek, mouth shapes(inned mouth)

eek

p.s ill do a screen cap of the rig in action

[eek]

Heres a screen capture of the rig with its gui in action:

>>Play<< (http://www.eekstudios.com/clips/frigtest.wmv)

This was a test on how Jason's gui approach would work. hope you like it!

eek

[Samba]

The screen shot looks fantastic! Can't wait to check out the customized rig.

Keep up the great work,
Samba

[Tughan]

Wow I loved it! Very cool gui. Like XSI guys do. :P
Keep it up my friend. :)

[ivo D]

again a great job .. looks really good, looking forward to using it.

talk to u soon :thumbsup:

[kr3ml]

eek, that is just awesome face rigging :eek: , I just hope that you dont have any morphs in thoes controls....

[eek]

nope no morphs at all, just prgressive expressions. Layerd aproach, using a muscle system, You can add any mouths poses you want, you can even change how the mouth and the muscles, move the face. And you can also take the rig off and apply it to another character.

Currently it has around 15 expression, 20 constraints and a whole lot more. Any pose can be driven into a pose. The layerd aproach means you can add nuances such as happy,sad glum over the top of your basic performance, without producing unwanted additve affect.

Would you guys like to see a clip of the underlying rig in action ?

currentyl working on a new version.

eek

[Tughan]

This is getting better and better.:bounce: I'd like show you something here... (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?p=1588144#post1588144) Lately, I was searching for a facial rig that I've saw a sample video in Tutorials CD of 3dsmax 5 last year. You may remember it. There was no info or Tuturial about it. Fortunately I found the creator of the rig. Actually he found me. :) It was created by Chris Harvey for a R&D test. He's really nice guy and sharing his great rig with CGTalkers via my thread at here. (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?p=1588144#post1588144) It is a bone rig, a different approach than this. But it's really fast and looking sweet.

Eek, could you take a look at it my friend? I think it's a burried treasue. You might come up with pretty cool things with it. Maybe combine it with your rig? Or else? Check it out.

[Morganism]

Hey eek. Nice work on this rig, it's got really great versitility. I've been working on a face as well, although I'm using mostly blendshapes, with a couple of joints for the jaw and eyes and stuff. Anyway, I wonder with your setup how much control you have of creating wrinkles and other small detail. It would be awesome if you could drive or simulate that stuff as well. Do you plan on adding blendshapes (I guess in your case morph targets) on top of everything? The blendshape approach might not be as all-inclusive as a muscle setup initially, but if there's ever a pose you can't hit, it's no big deal to just make another blendshape. Also, I'm not much of a scripter, so sculpting all those blendshapes is no problem compared to writing complex expressions.

Your setup is awesome, though. The idea that this rig might be able to be slapped on another model is intriguing, also. I'd definately like to see the underlying rig and hear more about it. Good work!

(PS, I didn't make it through the entire thread, so hopefully I'm not reiterating anything.)

[dobermunk]

Would you guys like to see a clip of the underlying rig in action ?
eek
I sure would! Preferably with the layout of your curves and how they are ordered to the poses. Very cool!

[eek]

Hi Morganism,

Yes, ive been thinking about creases for sometime now, and what im coming to working on is 2 maps(as i call them), 1 a muscles mape i.e the muscle rig, and 2 a crease map, key areas of the face which require creases e.g crows feet, forehead, middle brow. Which are driven by curves like the muscles but with crease like properities. These crease driven by the underlying muscles.

Now creases are hard, its pretty complex stuff. Ive currently just researched the problem:

notes (http://www.eekstudios.com/cgtalk/notes.jpg)

some of my notes. Theres two types of creases, ones that form from linear muscles eg. forehead, and ones that form from curved muscles. Also for a crease to happen, it has to slide- this is a another challenge.

Dobermunk,

Ah, the ordering process, this is key. The hierachal order of drivers and driven in the rig.
Yes ill post a screen capture.


eek

[dobermunk]

I'd like to test something like this in messiah.
particularly to see how efficiently a base rig could be adapted to new meshes.

[eek]

The rig is seperate from the face, this is crucial from me and for a production sence. The face only relys on skinning. So all you have to do is detach the skin, add a new face, move the rig around till it fits, then skin it back up. Skinning takes the time, but it aquaites itself to making morphs.

Tughan,

Just checking out that rig you mentioned.

eek

[dobermunk]

Skinning takes the time.

Not in messiah ;-)
That's why I'd like to see how this approach works there. Could be massive!

[Morganism]

Cool, Eek, it will be interesting to see how you end up implimenting wrinkles. It seems like you might need a pretty dense mesh for wrinkles to work without specifically modelled topology, right?
In the spirit of the thread I figured I might as well post a picture of the face I've been working on, so here it is:
http://www.loomisanimation.com/cgtalk/expressions.jpg
I've since sculpted some combination shapes to make it a little more assymmetrical. The interface isn't shown, but it's based on Jason Osipas concepts as well.

[eek]

Nice face!,

In terms of edge topology, im using true quad modelling, no tris/ngons. And only adding enough detail for wrinkles where needed. The crease system will be layerd on top of the muscle system so, it depends where you want it, and have the detail for it to work. eg if you want the wrinkles around the eye to work then you may add 2 or 3 more edges. Im only working on major crease, the rest i.e finite will be driven by displacement/bump map, maybe even normal map(max 7)

The wrinkle system still has to be worked out, i like the fact you have tendons pulling in the neck.

The nice thing with my rig is that you can add as little or a much as you want, ie hyper realistic, with jiggle etc et or pixar with nice, clean shapes, eg smile etc. The hardest area of my rig are the cheek areas, there very complex as they have to stretch over bone, not crease and buckle up and also be able to inflate via a buckanator muscle.

Things like double chins and fat, can be driven by expressions and springs, and are pretty easy.

eek

[steev]

Would you guys like to see a clip of the underlying rig in action ?
yes i would.

[eek]

Hey Dobermunk,

Just caught you message about Messiah, cool! about quick skinning! Heres a clip
of the underlying rig as i mentioned.

>>Play<< (http://www.eekstudios.com/clips/frigctl.wmv)

eek

[Morganism]

Rockin, dude. That seems really cool. Thanks for putting that up.