C4D for print illustration

[Jonj1611]

Hi,

When you say there are no readily available demo's, do you mean C4D 9? If so, have you checked out Maxon's site yet. You can find it here :-

Maxon (http://www.maxon.net)

Then just click on downloads at the top left and then demo versions.

As for Lightwave their used to be a demo cd you could order from the European site but I can't see it anymore.

Thanks
Jon
www.jonsmedia.com (http://www.jonsmedia.com)

[moondreams]

Thanks for replying. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I mean a demo for Lightwave. Apparently, there is no downloadable demo that I can find. And I've been looking around for awhile. Sharbor sells the LW Discovery(demo) version for $3.00 + shipping. I may end up having to "buy" the demo which is sort of ironic.

[wuensch]

you can (very well) substitute Pyrocluster with Stormtracers for most cases (and gain a loooot of speed).
Pyrocluster can look very nice & is physically correct, but the its slooooowww---
Stormtracer, while not physically correct, renders in a fractal of time, is easy to set up and gives cool results that often just look more illustrative than the physically more correct approaches.

I can recommend it highly.

TP when not doing animation looses a lot of its appeal.
I consider it one of Cinemas Killer-features, though: there is hardly anything you cannot do with it that can be done with particles.
If you are not the person that likes to play with expressions, you will most likely find it intimidating, but once the ice breaks it is just "Oh Baby--yessss".
AR is a must have for illustration (because of Radiosity & Subpoly-Displacement, which you will most likely fall in love with when doing HiRes-stills).

DiTools is in a league of its own and I can only recommend to get it.
If you have it and dont mind the lack of documentation (but are willing to study the example files) you will in no time use it on a job, be it illustrative or (not in your case) animation.
It has practically infinite uses for effects hard or even impossible in any other way..

If money is not soo tight, get the biggest affordable bundle plus Sketch & Toon (! absolute Must-Have for illustration) and Ditools & Stormtracer.
IMHO, you will sooner or later find a use for the features you dont think you need now.

The moduls easiest to not use when only doing stills are certainly TP, Dynamics and Pyro (if you have Storm)

You can also live without Mocca unless you want to play with the Cloth-Simulation (which is very cool and the feature I have been waiting for most, but not necessary for stills) or want to skin characters (which you can do without but it is not as convenient).

oh--and then there is bodypaint, which is really useful, too--
You can do without it---but its hard--

Olli

[Uncle-Ox]

Hi

I obviously would recommend the Studio Bundle since it has BodyPaint and Sketch and Toon :thumbsup: but if you could go without those then IMO the XL bundle is economically more feesable than getting only the core with AR. When I look at how widely I use stuff which isn't available in the core, especially in MOCCA, then I can't really imagine someone going without it.

Let's face it: Even though you said you won't be using it for anims, you will at some stage want to create something re-usable but in different poses or maybe with different clothes or something similar. If you have that functionality already then you could simply just go ahead and us it.

If you have to buy the modules only when you need them, you obviously need less start-up capital but in the long run, I don't think it's such a sound idea because purchasing the modules seperately is much more expensive than buing them in a bundle.

That's just my 2c

[rendermania]

As for Lightwave their used to be a demo cd you could order from the European site but I can't see it anymore.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that if you download one of Newtek's LW upgrades from their site and run it without a dongle/serial, it runs in save disabled demo mode. Not sure where I read that, but that might be the 'demo' you need.

[moondreams]

Thanks for the nice responses, guys. This really helps alot.

I think my first reply was botched because I forgot to put the title in the right place. So, to repeat (in case that post never surfaces). Jon - I was referring to the Lightwave demo. Sorry I didn't make that clear. There are no downloadable demos at Newtek's site. It makes you wonder if they really want new customers. I'm on a mac so C4D is probably the better way to go.

Olli - Thanks for the detailed post. You've really cleared things up for me in regards to TP and Pyrocluster. Both Storm Trace and DiTools look really powerful. For the still illustrator, of the two, which would be most useful to start with? Do most people go with one or the other? Eventually I'll probably end up with both, but to start, I want to add plugins (or modules) one by one so I can really learn how to use it before I move on to something else. Also, cost is a factor.

Uncle Ox - You're right. The Studio Bundle is the ideal situation. However, it would take me a while to save up for it and I really want to get started as soon as I can. 3D art has a larger learning curve than 2D, so I really can't afford to hold off getting started. I would love to have BP, though. I'm going to have to figure out how to do UV mapping some other way for the time being.

Mo

[moondreams]

Rendermania - I saw that post you were referring to as well. I tried this with the 7.5 LW update but haven't gotten it to work. Maybe the Windows version is different.

[acmepixel]

If you do print work (which is all that I do) Cinema with the AR module is the best choice in a 3D app. And primarily because of the Multipass rendering features. Fit hand in glove with Photoshop. BodyPaint 2 also uses Photoshop native format. There are only two Pro-level 3D apps that are really designed to do large format print work, Electric Image and C4D. EI can render at 64000x64000 and C4D can render at 32000x32000, not that you would ever need to render that large but I've done billboard work in Cinema at 18000x16000, 19 multipass layers, with no problems. LightWave is not even in the running. It is born and bred for Video/TV.

[moondreams]

acmepixel - Thanks for that bit of info. It never occurred to me to think about render size issues. I assumed all pro apps were more than adequate to handle all professional render size standards. I'm glad I learned this before I made a final decision on my choice of 3D software. I've seen so many beautiful illustrations done with Lightwave that I'm continually tempted in that direction even though I know that C4D is more stable (for the mac anyway), and better for what I plan on using it for. BTW, since you work in print, what other plugins would you recommend?

Mo

[Uncle-Ox]

If UV-mapping is the only thing you would miss about BodyPaint, then there's a really good FREE solution for you. It's called UVMapper. I unfortunately don't have a link to the site at the moment but you would get really easy with a search on Google.

[alex-tomlinson]

Hi Mo, I'm a UK based Illustrator that's been using C4D as my main app for 4 years or so now. I started out using Bodypaint, to texture and render models that I'd constructed in other apps like Amapi, and was totally blown away by the C4d renderer. I got myself a second hand copy of C4DXL 7 (very easy to transfer ownership and serials with Maxon being very helpful) and added plugins as and when I could afford them. I've upgraded to V9 but still use 8.5 a lot (because I'm a lot more comfortable modelling with mesh surgery and have been too busy to really get a handle on V9 yet).

I mainly do magazine work, the odd book jacket and a fair bit of subcontracting work for photographers working in advertising, although I've been doing a lot of pre viz work for a feature film lately. I only produce single still images, sometimes very large - C4D is very happy working on large images at high resolutions for print and multipass rendering is very useful.

The plugins I find myself working with most often are:
Mesh Surgery (in 8.5)
E-on software's Ozone (atmospheres/ skies etc)
Simbionts shaders (free) (mainly channel shaders used in layers to add realism to organic and ground textures).
Axis Tools (free)
Dpi 2 pix (3dweave.com)
Photomatch
CMYK (Thanks Rui)

PLugins/modules I use now and then - but are very handy for specific jobs and do pay for themselves very quickly are:
Bodypaint
Xfrog
Mocca (often have to model and bone characters in order to pose them for specific shots but don't use it to animate per se).
Sketch and Toon
Shave
Translucent pro
Interposer (free beta)
Surface painter
Sniperpro

Also thinking very seriously about getting Vue 5 infinite, and Poser6 once they are released and if they appear to be more stable than the current versions.

I would say that to get started all you really need is advance render module, you shouldn't discount picking up a second hand copy of C4D - they do often crop up for sale on this forum and postforum. It's a cheap and legal way to get on the upgrade path and could leave you with more spare cash for plugins.

Good luck and I'm sure you'll find C4D a very nice tool for illustration work.

[acmepixel]

acmepixel - Thanks for that bit of info. It never occurred to me to think about render size issues. I assumed all pro apps were more than adequate to handle all professional render size standards. I'm glad I learned this before I made a final decision on my choice of 3D software. I've seen so many beautiful illustrations done with Lightwave that I'm continually tempted in that direction even though I know that C4D is more stable (for the mac anyway), and better for what I plan on using it for. BTW, since you work in print, what other plugins would you recommend?

Mo

Heh, I'm the wrong person to ask in that department. :D I'm a plugin-a-holic. It would be faster if I listed the plugins that I DON't have: RealFlow, Ozone2, Dpit, and DiTools.

As is true of all 3D apps and C4D is no exception, the plugins can really make the program.

[moondreams]

Uncle Ox - Thanks for posting. I've been looking into this as well. UVMapper is one of the few, if any, mac UV mapping tool. I haven't tested it on anything but simple forms, so I don't know how it'll hold up under more complex objects. I'm also thinking of seeing how Wings would handle UV mapping. Eventually, I'll probably end up getting BP, but no money for that right now.

Alex - Wow. Thanks for taking the time to type out that great list. Just what I need. Some of these I already know about, but a few are totally new to me, so i'm going to have to look into them further. Speaking of XFrog and Vue, I'm also looking for something to use for plants and landscape generation. Those 2 are the most highly recommended ones, but I wasn't that impressed with Vue. Their latest version looks to be much improved, so I'm going to check it out when it's released. I'm also trying to decide between getting XFrog or Dpit.

BTW, I agree, coming from Strata CX, the C4D render seemed so much faster and elegant. It took forever to render anything in Strata and the options were so limited in comparison. I thought I had done enough research before buying Strata, but apparently not. C4D seems light years ahead. I can't wait to make the switch.

Mo

[fritzman]

Hi Mo,

i recommend you have a look at the upgrade prices of maxon which are really fair. So getting e.g. the XL bundle wouldn't be bad for now and having only a 50 Euro price difference when upgrading to the studio bundle compared to buying it right away.


Best wishes, FRitz

[moondreams]

acmepixel - One of the reasons I love C4D is because of the available plugins for this app. Strata was really limited in this regard. I'm somewhat new to 3D illustration, so I always figured everthing I needed would be included in the app itself. Fortunately, a lot of the plugins are either free or inexpensive. I'm trying to stay on budget.

fritzman - Because of the modular system, upgrading can get really complicated. I remember reading these forums when R9 was released and the confusion that occurred when everyone was trying to rationalize what a fair upgrade cost should be. I'm trying to think ahead so that when the next upgrade comes around, I'll be in a good position. The Studio Bundle is the most cost effective, but unfortunately not possible for me at the moment. XL Bundle however is doable.

Mo

[acmepixel]

a great place to start on your c4d plugin quest:

http://www.c4dplugs.com/

[policarpo]

As a former hardcore LightWave user, I've switched over completely to Cinema4D for all my print and recent animation work.

To be honest with you, I haven't used LW since Siggraph 2004 (there were too many issues with LW8 on the Mac that made it unusable for me-I lost numerous scene files to the point I could not work with it anymore). While LW 8.2 has resolved some major issues, the .PSD exporter still does not work as advertised (and as a Print Designer you will want to take complete advantage of Multi-Pass rendering which C4D excels at). Also, the disparity bewteen PC and Mac plug-ins for LW is just ridiculous (I'd say it's 60% PC and 40% Mac - and does not seem to be improving).

I have all the modules for C4D, but primarily use the Core+AR for a majority of my work (I haven't gotten into TP, Mocca, or PyroCluster as of yet)

As far as plugins, I find myself using the following:
1. Sniper Pro (great for getting quick previews)
2. Storm Tracer (great for particles and unique effects)
3. Final Touch (going to be getting this real soon)
4. Path Deformer (really great for aligning geometry to complicated paths)
5. MSA 3 (a more robust version of Path Deformer)
6. Sketch & Toon (this Module really rocks-it's deep and amazing)
7. Jenna 2.2 (this is mine as soon as issue #62 of 3D World hits my local bookseller).
8. Place On Points

Download the C4D R9 demo in the meantime while you are saving your cash for the purchase...it works great and you will get a sense of the great workflow and speed and stability it provides you.

I think going with C4D would be the smartest option for you. Maxon seems to understand what we Print, Pre-Vis and Motion Graphics artists are most in need of, and the Dev Team are spot on in my book, and I think the future of C4D is in good hands...whereas, with LW, I am not really sure where it's going.

I think Siggraph 2005 is going to be an interesting eye opener for a lot of users who are stuck on the fence about where they need to go to insure their investments in 3D.

Anyhoo, that's another issue altogether. :)

What type of Mac will you be running this on? I run it on a 1ghz 15" PB, and it works great (I offload all print renders to my Dual Xeon though).

And by all means, contact Maxon directly to see if they offer any sort of cross-grade upgrade path for you (it never hurts to ask--and heck, tell em I sent ya.) http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/drool.gif

Cheers.

[moondreams]

acmepixel - Thanks for the link. Lots of nice stuff here. I knew of another site that had a list of available plugins, but wasn't aware of this one.

Policarpo - Thanks for chiming in (lot of detailed information here). Believe it or not, you're one of the reasons I'm choosing C4D over LW. As a mac user, C4D, LW and Maya are the main logical options for serious 3D work. Out of the box, Maya was too expensive, so that left LW and C4D. I've been lurking both forums on this site and learned a lot from your experience. A Lightwave demo would have helped me make a quicker decision, but after trying out the R9 demo and reading posts on both forums, I think I've come to a pretty reasonable conclusion. The fact that you and other former LW users left for C4D sent a strong message to me. I too was also thinking about the developmental future of LW vs. C4D, since I hope to not have to switch apps again. Maxon looks like they're in it for the long haul.

Thanks for that nice list of plugins. I'm trying to start with a few essential ones and add more as I get better acquainted with C4D. BTW, I recently bought a G5 DP 2.0GHz mac, which is why I really can't afford to get everything I want at this point (Sketch & Toon, BP, etc.). I've already spoken with Rafi and got the lowdown on my possible upgrade/sidegrade options. I hope to make my decision on what to get soon. Thanks for your post.

Mo

[flingster]

c4d has to be one of the best around for this sort of thing.
file size handling for memory is pretty good also..max 16000x16000...not that many 3d apps are any good in this area for the price.
excellent multifile support and psd support.
quick/intuitive for artists rather than programmers!
some of the best workflow around.
excellent quality speedy renderer
stable workhorse.

my advice for what its worth on modules/bundles etc yadda yadda.
basically its this..and its a personal opinion. always by the suites version and never ever buy outside of this despite the temptation. eg core then XL then studio...studio if you can afford it then XL then core....core is good..but think AR is worth the money...S&T might be worth considering also...BUT might also be worth finding your feet first anyways.

good luck, enjoy..and it'll be the best 3d software purchase you ever made...imo.

[moondreams]

Thanks, flingster.

I do remember you and others on this site recommending buying bundled modules (core, XL, or Studio) vs. the buying a module here and a module there approach. I know this makes the most sense; getting the biggest bang for the buck. I'm looking at getting either core + AR bundle ($900.00) or XL bundle ($1,200.00). Eventually, I'll add Bodypaint or Sketch & Toon (maybe wait for the next .5 upgrade to do this). C4D Studio is too big a leap for me at this point.

Mo

[flingster]

hey bud the beauty of the module system is you can bounce in at core..and test the water so to speak...then shift onwards and upwards to xl and studio as you fund it with work or as you grow in confidence...the choice is yours. its a lot to learn all at once to be fair..if you can stretch to it i'd always recomment xl personally...but only if you can stretch to it...and since you are doing print stuff might not be right for you anyways...take your time...try the demo get a feel for it first...learn whats missing from core that you might need etc. essentially 3d is not just an investment in hard earned cash its an investment in massive amounts of time...so you need to be happy with your decision and its not one that you should rush...at least if you've used strata then you have a background to understanding what half the terminology means! heh heh

(i think you get a better deal from maxon though not breaking out of this ever though..so core/xl/studio and nothing else inbetween despite temptation..again personal opinion based on past experience)

anyways good luck

[moondreams]

flingster - My initial plan was to get Core + AR. Then use 3rd party plugins like Storm Tracer to replace TP and pyrocluster. Now, after seeing some of the responses, I think it may be a better idea to go for the XL bundle even though I probably won't use half of the modules, not to mention stretching the limits of my budget. Should Maxon commit to significant improvements in the XL modules (speed up pyro for instance), I'll be in a good position since I won't have to make a separate purchase for those modules. MOCCA's clothilde function is also beginning to look like something I could use even though I don't plan on doing any animation.

Mo

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