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goosh
09-11-2002, 08:29 PM
Hi all

Ok.. A lot of people have asked me about rigs and models.

Unfortunately I'm pretty attached to my models but still I've decided to make them available at quite a price.. This way, it's easier for me to let them go )

Having said that. Daniel Martinez Lara (from pepeland) built a biped (IkJoe) for 3D Studio Max and he donated over to me to build a rig for Maya. I've managed to convert the existing rig that I've got for PackageMan over to IK-Joe..
You can find out about PackageMan and how it works on my site too.

You've got a free model now, use it if you will...

And if you do, just drop me a line.. It would be nice to know where it ends up.

Enjoy

You can find IK-Joe and everything else on my site: www.digital-dreams.net


Goosh

--
3D Animator and all around nice guy.

www.digital-dreams.net

steveblake
09-17-2002, 11:38 AM
This really IS good. I've been comparing your work to this rig www.premierpressbooks.com/ch15_final.zip (from the Inspired books series)

And I really think yours comes off as much much better, from an animators point of view especially (which I guess you are so...)


It's been a great bonus for me and, I'm assuming, many others.

Regards

goosh
09-17-2002, 03:42 PM
Interesting..

Not a bad rig..
What surprises me is that I've never seen a set up like that before and it ended up being very very similar to mine...

Thanks for the tip.. I might be able to get some nice info out of that

Goosh

jschleifer
09-17-2002, 10:34 PM
Heya!

I checked out this rig, too.. some interesting ideas, and a few problems.. some comments..

1) the rotation orders for the body parts seem a bit backwards to me.. the cl_chestCTRL for example is set to yzx. This means the y axis gets rotated first, then the other are affected. What this means is that if you have the character facing down the z axis, and you rotate it in x.. it bends over. But if you rotate it in y 90 degrees so it's facing the X axis and rotate it in x.. it's leaning to the side.. this can cause problems in knowing what your curves do.

2) the head control doesn't have the rotation orders set correctly.

3) the foot has the same problem with rotation orders.. the knee control is hooked up to the rotateY.. which limits the automatic rotation on the knee (good!), but if you rotate the foot in z, and then rotate in y, the knee moves.. which it shouldn't, because the foot is twisted over.. just causes some funkyness..

4) I really like the floor control idea.. interesting concept!

5) there are a number of expressions which could be made into direct connections or math nodes which would help the rig run faster

6) finger controls are nice.. would be good to make them easier to find

7) lookat control for eyes needs a way to stay in world space.. otherwise, it's got some nice stuff on it. maybe move the eye controls from the head to the lookat itself?

These are just minor things however, in general it's a pretty nice rig to work with.. simple to use, well layed out.. etc.

-jason

goosh
09-18-2002, 03:08 AM
Hey Jason

Ok.. I guess I should know this.. but what the heck is the difference between having a rotation xyz and a yzx or whatever...

Oopps? is that like a grade one question?
I know you explained it here.. but still... me too dumb.. me not get it...

Another one.. what's up with the floor idea... what would you use that for?

Thanks

Goosh

jschleifer
09-18-2002, 03:31 AM
rotation order is best shown if you take your character's main body control (the one that does the full torso).

Switch to rotate mode and change it to gimbal rotate mode (double-click on the rotate tool). This will show you exactly which rotation axis are allowed for your creature at any given orientation.

In the attribute editor for the object, look at the rotation order there. The default is XYZ. This means that first the x-axis gets evaluated, then the y-axis, then the z-axis.

So if you rotate the x-axis, you'll notice none of the other axeees get rotated. Then rotate the y axis.. see how it moves the x? then finally the z, and it moves all three. That's the order of the rotations that gets evaluated.

Set the rotations to 0 0 0.

Now, if your character is existing in a y up world (as most are nowadays), and you want to turn the character around, you'll use the y-axis to do it, right?

So go ahead and turn the character 90 degrees in y. See how rotating the y axis affects the x axis? now that you've done that, you can tell that suddenly, you have one fewer axis of rotation available for your character! You can't lean him in one of the directions anymore! This is called "gimbal lock".

Set the rotations back to 0 0 0.

In the attribute editor, change the rotation order to XZY, or ZXY.

Now rotate 90 degrees in Y.

Notice that you can rotate the character to face any direction, and still lean and tip him over.

badabing! :)

as for the floor node, I just find it handy to have a global re-positioning node which you can use for a particular part of the body.. kinda nifty for quick changes.

-jason

goosh
09-18-2002, 04:03 AM
Ok ok ok ok.. yeah.. I get it..

As far as the floor thingy goes.. yeah...

Though now I'm confused as if you were talking about my rig (IK-Joe) or the one in the Inspired 3D Character Set-Up one..

The two rigs are pretty similar, that's why I got all confused..

As far as mine goes... yeah... all my rotation could be screwed up.. I should take a look at them..

If you were talking about the floor thing on mine.. yeah I kind of figured out what that one was for :p

What I didn't get was what the floor thing was for in the Inspired set up.. 'cause it looked similar to the foot control.. and it's divided into two..

Oh.. but now I read your post again and you were talking about the eyes.. and since I deleted all the info about the eyes in mine, you were talking about the Inspired set up..

Anyway.. I'll go back to mine and check all my rotations..

Thanks

Goosh

M-J
09-20-2002, 09:42 AM
hi goosh,

just tried to take IKJoe apart and there's one thing that keeps me thinking :-)

i found alot of "blendWeighted"- and "animCurveUA"-Nodes in your rig. what are they for? e.g. the additional hand-controller has attributes that are not drivers for any other attributes, but e.g. the attribute "tipIndex" rotates the last joint in the index finger. so i guess it has something to do with these nodes coz they are all over the place...but i'm not sure! could you please explain that to me?

thank you
mj

goosh
09-20-2002, 05:34 PM
Hi MJ

Well.. the rig for IK-Joe was not really built for IK-Joe but instead I adapted it from an old one that I had.. so there might be a few things floating around that shouldn't be there. It used to have a skin on it, etc..

As far as the fingers go, You have the "H" controller, but you also have an "f" controller which is hidden in the "UnUsed Layer". If you make the layer visible, you'll see the "f" just behind the "H" (you can move it to the controller Layer or something)
The "f" is hidden 'cause some people might get confused as why it's there and what you use it for, but the idea behind it is to have individual control of all the joints in the fingers. This way you can get some nicer subtleties in your animation. So, that's where the 'tipIndex' stuff comes from.

Hope that helps

Goosh

M-J
09-20-2002, 08:28 PM
ok, i got it...
maybe i should think first :-)

mj

anthonymcgrath
10-01-2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by steveblake
This really IS good. I've been comparing your work to this rig www.premierpressbooks.com/ch15_final.zip (from the Inspired books series)

It's been a great bonus for me and, I'm assuming, many others.

Regards


HEY, DO YOU KNOW WHAT BOOK I NEED TO GET FROM PREMIERPRESSBOOKS? I CAN SEE "INSPIRED 3D CHARACTER ANIMATION". IS THAT THE BOOK?? PLEASE REPLY.

anthonymcgrath
10-01-2002, 09:15 AM
hey goosh, do you think you'd be able to amend that rig of yours to a slightly muppetproof version for idiots like myself to peruse over?

the problem I'm having when I pull it apart is that I cant figure out how you've accomodated the fk/ik setups in the arms. it proper boggles my brain. (all 14and a bit cells!)

Is it possible you could create that same rig with just Ik based arms and maybe remove the blendweighted stuff that isn't used?
I was also looking at the cluster nodes you've got in there. are these used to move the polygon bodyparts or are they superfluous too?

Its a fantastic rig and probably one you could flog with a hefty tutorial if its cleaned up and all that!! I love the hidden fingertip controls too!!
nice work man. its certainly made me re-evaluate how ik'd meshes are put together!!

anth
newcastle
uk

steveblake
10-01-2002, 09:22 AM
Yeah it's the 'Character Animation' book. Whilst I still prefer Goosh's rigg, it's still a very useful resource!

anthonymcgrath
10-01-2002, 09:33 AM
yeah, Goosh's rig is indeed the mac daddy!!!

theres also an "Inspired3d Character setup" book on their site too. it wouldn't happen to be this would it?
I might just buy the lot to be honest. Are they particularly advanced books or do they just brush the surface. I see so many books that dont cut the mustard and all I wanna do is rig Godzilla!!!! :-)

steveblake
10-01-2002, 09:46 AM
this thread may help:

http://www.cg-char.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=1&topic=539

I don't own the books yet - I'm lobbying our CGI co-ordinator to get them PDQ...

-dc-
10-01-2002, 01:59 PM
Hey everyone, in case you haven't seen, I also have a free rig available on my post:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21445

It's alot different than IK-Joe. If you post a reply about my rig, please do it in my thread, thanks! :)


regards,

Joe

goosh
10-01-2002, 04:53 PM
Hi anthonymcgrath

I'll look into cleaning it.. I'm just lazy.. and I had this rig already, and since so many people asked me for a model I addapted it.. Maybe I should have built it from scratch :)

I'll write a few tutorials as the time goes by on how I created the different areas.. really there isn't a lot.

it's basically the reverse foot lock, the ik/fk switching, the ik control for the hand and the spine... and the spine set up you can find in Jason's DVD (though I change it a little bit.... Jason is insane!!! and I'm not that clever.. so I had to make it a little bit simpler :) )

I was surprised to find out that the rig in the "Inspired" book is very similar to mine... (I was pretty happy about it.. since when I created my rig I was just putting things that made sense to me)

I met Mike and Alan (the authors of the book) last year and they are awesome and they know their stuff... I still haven't got the book, but I'm looking forward to check it out soon... I'm sure there are tons of little things in there we can all learn from.

I'll post tutorials on 'the making of' as I've got time.. (not much these days)

What would you guys like to know how to do first? any takers?

Goosh

steveblake
10-01-2002, 05:04 PM
Well,

I'm still baffled by IK / FK arms!

so that and perhaps your take on the spine setup.

(I know that writing a tutorial can take time, but from others point of view it's fantastic and every little helps)

Keep up the good work. IKJoe as he is, is very animatable! Thanks for releasing him...

goosh
10-01-2002, 05:47 PM
Great.. I'm glad..

Ok.. I was thinking on writting the IK/FK switch... so I'll do that next...

give me a week or so though.. I'm pretty bogged down with work right now :(

G

jschleifer
10-01-2002, 09:35 PM
I've got an FK/IK arm switching tutorial on my new DVD which hopefully will be coming out soon.. it works with Maya's fk/ik switchign on a single joint structure, but actually handles things a lot better ( basically, I wrote a huge wrapper around it). Comes with scripts to automatically generate it (and easily encorporate it into a scripting-based pipeline, or do it interactively)..

I'll let ya'll know when it's available. :)

-jason

goosh
10-01-2002, 10:18 PM
the maya ik/fk switching is weird.. I don't like the fact that you have to set special keys on it...

I'd love to see what crazy work idea you came up with though...

When do you find the time to do all this? geee

Well.. let us know when the DVD is coming out.. I'm sure there'll be a lot of people interested in it!!

G

jschleifer
10-01-2002, 10:38 PM
Yeah the maya one doesn't work too well.. it ignores the fact that you need to be able to tweak both the fk & ik keys together to ensure that everything is managed correctly.. AND you need to be able to "fix" pops and stuff.. AND you need to not have to think about it. :)

-jas

yinako
12-08-2002, 07:39 PM
So jason or anyone else, about rotation orders, I didnt know there importance until I check this thread and then the maya docs. According to the doc its because its more of a animation smoothness issue compare as to local rotate.

My question, is there a way to demonstrate the difference between gimbal rotate mode and local mode, as in the resulted animation?

Also is this a convetion now that certain character joints like near the hips and maybe other parts would have their own specific rotation order to allow better/accurate motion control? I wasnt awear of rotation order for character rigs until today ^^;

mexus
12-10-2002, 11:24 PM
I enjoyed animating the rigged character from your site www.digital-dreams.net.

Very good controls and cluster positioning. I ended up creating another control for his facial positions and grouped the hands to the pelvis control for more flexibility. Blend Shapes are a good approach to doing that.

I'm new at cg talk. How can I post the animation for your viewing?

:bounce:

Ckerr812
12-11-2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by jschleifer
I've got an FK/IK arm switching tutorial on my new DVD which hopefully will be coming out soon.. it works with Maya's fk/ik switchign on a single joint structure, but actually handles things a lot better ( basically, I wrote a huge wrapper around it). Comes with scripts to automatically generate it (and easily encorporate it into a scripting-based pipeline, or do it interactively)..

I'll let ya'll know when it's available. :)

-jason

Do let us know! :)

But, will it be the same setup as you talked about in your siggraph presentation using the jsfkiksetup script? I am kinda from the old Softimage 3d animation mindset, and character sets scare me :)

I cry, I am working on something right now where the arm pops when switching, so I just kinda have a crazy smile and twitch in my eye well I take the time to animate the whole thing with FK...

I like doing things the hard way...I get more gradification when I am done..:D

jschleifer
12-11-2002, 12:13 AM
Yah it's the same as the siggraph presentation with the jsFkIkWin thing.. so if ya got that, then you don't need the DVD. :)

-jason

Ckerr812
12-11-2002, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by jschleifer
Yah it's the same as the siggraph presentation with the jsFkIkWin thing.. so if ya got that, then you don't need the DVD. :)

-jason


How sweet it is ...

I have learned so much from you on the forums and from your presentations, (My character rigs were always way to complex) you showed me how do do alot more with alot less....

Just wanna say thanks! Hope I can return the favour one day :)

goosh
12-11-2002, 12:28 AM
How do you do a lot more with a lot less?

Just just hide the lot and show only the less? :D

G

Ckerr812
12-11-2002, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by goosh
How do you do a lot more with a lot less?

Just just hide the lot and show only the less? :D

G

lol...well for one thing, I learned how to control most animation nodes in my scene...before this I just kinda animated things and then hoped for the best.

Now I realize that the fewer nodes in the scene the happier maya (and my computer will be) when they don't have to evaluate double nodes (seems simple right) but I never thought about it till recently, .....Like using the Connection editor, for one animation curve driving two objects, using set driven Key over some expressions, using the Framecache node, storing attributes in another attribute, and using variables in expressions and alot of other things. It seems like alot of small things, but they all add up after awhile :)

It's just really helpful, specially to a guy like me just learning mel script for the first time :)

mexus
12-11-2002, 02:53 AM
Hey guys..

Do you know of any good riggers out there that know where I can learn how to rigg properly?:surprised

goosh
12-11-2002, 03:14 AM
mexus:
This forum is a pretty good start.

G

joie
12-18-2002, 09:13 PM
Hi, Iīve tested the rig by Martinez Lara and I found it very easy to use, itīs almos like mines but I donīt like the IK Spline setup for the spine, I use driven keys to make it "pseudo-IK" system while conserving the FK so easy to use. but you use the IK Spline setup and donīt understand why do you have different controls to make the same; you have a 3-joint setup to FK-rotate the spine, but you have also two control curves at the back to rotate the spine in some other ways..., how did you make it and why?, wich part do you modify first when you pose it? the joints?, the curves?

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