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michaelb
01-29-2005, 08:09 PM
Hi,
I just got my copy of the "d'artiste" book, and I must say your work looks good in print! I was also curious about something. On your "Ordinary Heroes" breakdowns, you mentioned that you started the sketch stage for the painting at 1600 x 1200 pixels, and then resized it to about 11" x 8.5" at 300 dpi when you finished your detailed drawing. When you had all the colors and values completed, and you were happy with the results, you mentioned the use of the Genuine Fractals program to resample the completed work for printing. My question is this: Would I be correct in assuming you followed the same general pattern for the "Mood 1" painting featured on the front cover? Did you finalize your digital painting at 300 dpi, then resize it with Genuine Fractals to print resolution? If so, it reproduced very, very well. It holds up even under close inspection. I'm asking because I have some ideas that might look nice in print, and I'm trying to determining an optimal file size to work with in Painter. Could you elaborate a bit more about the process used on that particular piece? I'm asking out here on the forum because you never know when someone else who is listening might create something that might make the next edition. :)

Lunatique
01-30-2005, 05:57 AM
michaelb - Although your question isnt' Painter-related, I understand why you posted it here in the Painter Forum (as I would've never seen it if you had posted it in the correct forum--which is the 2D WIP forum). Don't forget PMs/email are available for use as well. :)

I'm actually not too happy with the first printing of my stuff in d'artiste, as the colors/contrast/sharpening is off by quite a bit, but we have taken measures to make sure the 2nd printing will look more accurate. I havent' seen the 2nd printing yet, so I don't know how it'll turn out.

The way I handled resizing for the cover and the Ordinary Heroes pieces are quite different. For the OH piece, it was resized to print size (300 DPI, 11x8.5 inches) right after the initial block in stage, so all the details were painted at print size. There's no use of Genuine Fractals for that piece since it was painted at print size already. The only reason I'd ever use Genuine Fractals is if I need to print at unconventional large sizes like posters or large format magazines..etc, or if the original is too small and I have no high-res versions of it at all. For example, The Promise piece, the Melancholic Princess Piece, the Mood 1 piece..etc were all painted at only desktop size, and those needed Genuine Fractals to upsize to print size. I then did a mild sharpening to them with the Unsharp Mask to get a bit of the details back.

The cover of d'artiste is a very different approach, as only the face is used, and if you think about it, the original was only desktop size, and they wanted just the face for the whole cover--we're talking severe lack of resolution here! So, my solution was to basically take that face and upsample it to print size in Genuine Fractals, then actually go in and repaint some of the details like the eyelashses, hair strandes, lips..etc. If you compared the cover to the original, you'll see minor differences (don't look at the printed version of the original in d'artiste for comparison, since the printing on that is quite off. Compare it to the version at my website).

Squibbit
01-30-2005, 09:57 AM
ahh, so that was your piece, very nice work (..mood).

the alternative was fun too , although so cool you decided
to keep it simple

michaelb
01-30-2005, 11:58 AM
Thanks for the reply. I thought I'd find you here first, so here's where I came. I thought about sending you an e-mail, but then I thought others might be interested in the "desktop to high-end printing" process, so I posted in the forums. That also lets people in the future use the search functions to find your pearls of wisdom. :)
Your description of the work involved in resizing the "Mood 1" closeup for the cover explains a lot. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I had the feeling something was different than the original. I had done some research on Genuine Fractals a while back, and decided that working hi-res from the start was the best approach for art destined for print. GF works well, but it still can't manufacture new image detail out of thin air. I couldn't figure out how the closeup got so refined when I thought the original was created so much smaller. Now I know. Thanks for the lesson. :)

Jinbrown
01-31-2005, 07:02 AM
michaelb - Although your question isnt' Painter-related, I understand why you posted it here in the Painter Forum (as I would've never seen it if you had posted it in the correct forum--which is the 2D WIP forum). Don't forget PMs/email are available for use as well. :)


Luna,

I definitely understand why the question was posted in the Corel Painter forum. The question is, ultimately, about the optimal file (or image) size to use in Painter and how to get Painter work ready for printing:

michaelb wrote:

I'm asking because I have some ideas that might look nice in print, and I'm trying to determining an optimal file size to work with in Painter.


In addition, your answers to michaelb's questions are most definitely of interest to Painter users. Many of us print our images and your experience and solutions to problems like this are most helpful.

Thanks for not denying us the privilege of learning from you by moving the thread to wherever you thought it should have been posted.... where we would likely never have seen it.

michaelb,

Thanks for posting your question here. After all, Painter users do want to know things that have to do with working in Painter and also printing their Painter work. The two subjects are not in the least unrelated. Nor is the use of Genuine Fractals or other such means to get an image ready for print. In fact they are all part of the process to reach the intended goal when an artist begins the art, as in your case, where you're asking at the planning stage.

Jinbrown
01-31-2005, 07:19 AM
Luna,

Duh! Now I see that you did move the thread to "wherever you thought it should have been posted". I hope you will be kind enough to either move it back to the Corel Painter forum or post a copy of the thread there in the Corel Painter forum since you feel it should be in this forum.

It's certainly a Painter related thread.

Thanks in advance.

Lunatique
01-31-2005, 08:13 AM
Jin - I almost always keep a shadow in the original forum posted, so if anyone wants to read the thread, they could still see it. I think people can tell by the topic if it's something that they're interested in reading.

I moved it to the 2D section because dealing with resizing/upsampling a low-resolution artwork for print is a problem all artists face, not just painter users.

Gryphon
01-31-2005, 02:11 PM
This is actually good reading and quite relevant for me aswell.

I'm thinking of uploading a painting for exposť 3. Problem is, (as always) I didn't paint it at very high res. (1267x779)

Now, is there anything at all I can do about this or should I rely on the people handling the files? (It's clearly stated that you should not upsize.)

Photoshop 7.0.1 user btw.

The image in question is the Lavochkin painting. (Link provided in the bottom of the signature)

Lunatique
01-31-2005, 02:25 PM
I think they tell people not to upsample because most people don't know how to do it correctly. If you really know what you're doing and are familiar with post production work in photography/printing..etc, then I don't see why not (but you better be damn sure you know your stuff and can do a good job). The way I do it is to use Genuine Fractals, then do a mild Unsharp Mask--and if that's not enough (of if it introduces visible artifacts), I'll just retouch the image by painting over some places. HOWEVER, if your entry is 3D, then painting over it will be extremely painstaking--and maybe even impossible, especially if it's a highly detailed rendering with complex textures/modelling.

Gryphon
01-31-2005, 02:43 PM
Well I have played around with upsizeing a bit. but can't say I master it - It looks all right on the screen, sharp, crisp.... but I fear how it will look like in the end, printed.

What is Genuine Fractals, exactly?

Lunatique
01-31-2005, 03:36 PM
You can try printing it out at about the same size as Expose and see how it looks. One thing photographers do is to always do an Unsharp Mask before going to print--maybe around Amount 300, Radius 0.5~1, Threshhold 0. It helps tighten up the finer details without oversharpening (if you want to see a good example of oversharpening, look at the Mood 1 piece in d'artiste--not the cover, the whole piece--the first printing of that is quite oversharpened. Compare it to the original version on my website and you'll see a huge difference). I usually don't do any sharpening to my paintings unless they were low-res to begin with and needed upsampling. If they were painted at print resolution, I don't do anything to it at all.

I've read that if you upsized in 10% increments at a time, you get better results. I've tried it before and Genuine Fractals is still better.

Genuine Fractals is a Photoshop plugin that upsamples with a special algorithm--one that's special enough to be a commercial product. Do a google search on it. There are other ones out there that does the same thing made by other companies. I've tried other methods and Genuine Fractals gave me the best result so far.

Gryphon
02-01-2005, 11:19 AM
Allright, thanks for the info. Very useful. I guess the best thing is to make it a habbit to paint high res from the start and/or at least upsize midway.

"...upsized in 10% increments at a time..." Let me get this right, does it help upsizeing the final image little by little...? I can't wrap my head around that one. :shrug:

I'll look into Genuine Fractals, sounds like a handy tool o' trade.

Lunatique
02-01-2005, 12:34 PM
Well, I think it's something like, upsample by 10%, apply a very mild sharpening, then repeat, until you hit the size you want. You might want to google on that, since this is based on memory.

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