New Studio

[MJV]

Since you haven't stated what you want to do with the software, character driven, architectural, broadcast graphics, it appears you really haven't thought this through. Depending upon what you want to do the best choice might be neither of those.

[scroll-lock]

uups very sorry for that - Feature films ;)

[ThE_JacO]

you've also forgotten another detail or two.

searching for previous threads before you post AND reading the rules... before you post.

[scroll-lock]

ok. i can assure you i have searched a lot.. i didn`t find the answers i`m looking for.
And i can assure you that i had read the forum rules before posting here. Really sorry for the crosslinking, but that`s because i wanted the maya and xsi community to share experience.
Please be free to delete the thread if you want. Sorry.

[greyface]

I think you should go for XSI because it's cheaper, and comes with a compositor. The animation tools are IMO better than in maya - the only thing you'll miss is particles and maya fluid effects..

[Vertizor]

I've wrangled my brain over the Maya vs XSI question to. I'm not going into the flame war of what app can/can't do better/worst. Strictly economics, because ultimately it's up to the skill of the user.

What I find interesting about XSI is: there are 3 tiers, compared to Maya with only 2 tiers. You get 2 CPU Mental Ray license in the lowest tier of XSI (Foundation). The next tier up, Essentials, you get more CPU licenses for MR plus the satelite render acceleration. Check the softimage website for more specifics on how many additional MR licenses you get. So of course, XSI Advanced will have more CPU licenses. First of all theres the licenses for the actual workstation you're on, then it comes with additional licenses for render nodes.

Think about how much it would cost you to buy a stand alone license of Mental Ray. XSI Advanced is similar in price with Maya Unlimited. I do not know for a fact how many MR licenses come with Maya Unlimited. But from what info I could find, I am lead to believe Maya Unlimited only comes with a 2 CPU license for MR. If anyone knows otherwise, please correct me.

So with that in mind, if I had to choose between Maya or XSI, I'd go with XSI for the extra MR licenses. Even though there's other ray tracers available to Maya (and Maxwell Render coming along) that are cheaper to license than MR, you'll have to evaluate what your rendering needs are. Me personally, I can live with the few licenses I get bundled with the XSI packages.

Here's where I fall into an undecisive trap:
There's no way of creating animatable, high quality hair, in XSI unless I go with the Advanced package. Maya is a different story. Shave & a Haircut is available as a plugin that will work in Maya Complete (price comparable to XSI Essentials).

So I'm stuck between deciding whether to buy Maya Complete, then add the plugins to make it as close to Unlimited as possible, but then have to cough up more money for MR licenses. OR do I get XSI with all the additional MR licenses I could possibly need for the near future, but not be able to do hair until I can afford Advanced?

I haven't made up my mind yet, but just offering this food for thought.

[kex]

i dont 1 think can be better than the other.

one can be cheaper than the other, thats all you can really see from this

also take into acount on xsi each machine would have to run windows xp - probally pro edition.

linux on the other hand and maya may be the cheaper option to go depending on how many machines yud use.

but if you went with linux youd allso have to choose a nvidia range of graphics cards and have to quite tech savvy

[Vertizor]

also take into acount on xsi each machine would have to run windows xp - probally pro edition.

linux on the other hand and maya may be the cheaper option to go depending on how many machines yud use.
I run XSI Foundation on XP Home, no problems here. The only thing that would get in the way is the fact that XP Home won't support 2 physical CPUs.

And each edition of XSI has a Linux version, so your second point can go either way.

[Myliobatidae]

Hello,
there are some very important questions that need to be answered first:

which software are you already an expert at, because it will take years to become one on either package.

How many people are going to be working there, equals how many of either package you will need to buy.

My opinion here will be sort of unbiased, because I'm a Max user, I do however read alot on the subject.

First both packages can be used on linux, both of coarse come with MR, and if infact you are going to use MR, then the choice is clear, XSI was built around MR and has by far the best intergration with it.

Maya will be getting new rendering options soon, but those options may not be suitable for feature films i.e. vray and maxwell.
Maya has always been rendermans buddy, but you don't have to use PRman, you can use any of the free renderman compliant renderers, or some of the moderatly priced ones.

Maya has fluid effects and paint effects which are awsome, I've used them a couple times...

XSI comes with Syflex (unbeatable for cloth) it also comes with Behavior , on this point I maybe wrong but I don't think there is anything comparable for maya except AI implant,
which is like $10,000 someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I can't find any info on how many computers you can use MR on when using Maya,
but it seems like on XSI you have a total of 12 cpu's someone correct me on that one also...




* 4 CPU mental ray v.3.3 rendering
* 8-node Satellite rendering
* SOFTIMAGE|BEHAVIOR v.2.0 behavioral animation system with QuickStart DVD
* Syflex Cloth
* BatchServe v.1.5.3
* Tree-based Compositing and Paint
* Industry-leading Hair & Fur

Anyway thats my 2 cents, I would have to go with XSI at this point

[scroll-lock]

thank you for your answers. I have asked myself the same questions, and i gave myself the same answers... First to correct you that i`m not building a new studio :) i wish so.. The studio i work in is using Lightwave... considering moving to XSI or Maya. We use dual Xeons on Windows XP /2000 platforms.
So the offer for the free MR licenses is greeaat... yes 12 cpus for free whoaa.. XSI is great, the only thing that`s not good at is the particles and the fluids... Well our studio has Realflow licenses.... well it`s better the particles to be integrated directly in the program you use.. but. So the thing that i`ll miss is really the particles and fluids... I still can`t decide for myself..

[kex]

thank you for your answers. I have asked myself the same questions, and i gave myself the same answers... First to correct you that i`m not building a new studio :) i wish so.. The studio i work in is using Lightwave... considering moving to XSI or Maya. We use dual Xeons on Windows XP /2000 platforms.
So the offer for the free MR licenses is greeaat... yes 12 cpus for free whoaa.. XSI is great, the only thing that`s not good at is the particles and the fluids... Well our studio has Realflow licenses.... well it`s better the particles to be integrated directly in the program you use.. but. So the thing that i`ll miss is really the particles and fluids... I still can`t decide for myself..


you really should of said that in the first place :)

[Myliobatidae]

Well I'm glad to hear you already have realflow, it also can't be beat as far as fluid simulation.
As far as particles, I know maya's particles are better than max's, but I don't know if they're superior to XSI's.

[scroll-lock]

well the particles in Maya are the best out there. After a long desicion about the pros and cons of the one or another i saw that XSI vs Maya means:

better MR integration
free MR nodes
syflex
behavior


vs

particles
fluids
paintfx


Thank you for your time.

[solarflare]

As far as the XSI vs Maya argument goes, there are a couple more arguments for each:

XSI: comes with its own compositor, better polygon modeling tools.
Maya: better Nurbs modeling tools.

And while I don't know the program well enough, I have heard that Houdini has better particles than Maya.

[el_diablo]

Well you cleared up the point of the question isnt forming a new studio. However I am in the position of doing just that right now (pretty slowely though, project budget in my country is about 1/10 to 1/50 of the comparable projects in US). I thougt of getting three tiers of software:

1. Fast projects with 3d only/little vfx/basic compostiting
2 x seats of LW
1 x Aftereffects professional

2.Middle to high level projects/high level vfx/middle level compositing
2 x seats of XSI foundation
1 X seat of XSI essentials

3.Highest level project/extreme level vfx/1000s of nodes/100s of passes
1 x seat of Houdini Master
2 x seat of Houdini Escape
1 x seat of D2 Nuke

Well, thats the basic sw plan, with tier 1/2 already in progress/aquired and they work awesome. I'll invest in tier 3 only if we get a project that justifies it.

Now for details. Why XSI?
[rumbilings ahead]
Well it was mostly based of my personal experience in the area I have most professional expirience in (broadcast graphics/commercials/music videos). In my expirience and that of my sensei (my good friend and one of the piooners of Croatias VFX scene), if you can do it in post production - do it there. That was in relation of rendering a perfect scene in 3D. This basic knowledge proved true/accurate on numerous occasions and at most value on big projects. For example for our post production on a drinking water commercial that won 2003 Euscar prize I used maya paint for growing grass, grape veins and other folliage on unusal places like steering wheel of a car etc. I dunno how many of you people tried using Maya paint for closeup shoots of foliage and tried to make it truely photorealistic, but its not an easy feat. After 100s of renders and tweaking, after polygonizing the strokes, manualy adjusting everything director wasnt yet satisfied with the results. Here comes the turning point. We knew we should do something or the whole project could be in jepardy. We 3 vfx people sat down one evening after the director went home and talked it out, worked all night and made output that director was finaly happy with. What didi we use? Used first animated grows that come out Maya on our initial tests a week ago which were far from realistic. However...this time all the time wasnt spent on trying to improve renders, we did it all in the post! All the shadows, all the speculars - everything was done in the post production. This brings me to the point of this rambling.

XSI has best render pass management system on the planet. This is where the software trully shines. Since we switched to it projects are done faster, better. And you dont need a dedicated TD for managing your renders.

All said...Yes XSI particles still arent all that good, they lack control, and render too slow through mental ray. MR render licenses are expensive if you plan to get a render farm.

On a side note, we are lucky to have had a pretty adaptive team on my last place of employment and switching packages wasnt so big a hurdle so we could allow ourselfs to use the best way to evaluate software, use it in actual production.

Jeez, I dont think I ever typed this much on a online forum before.
:eek:

[AA_Tyrael]

Ok... in defence of Maya

A)Syflex does NOT come with the basic edition and u need the advanced one which cost a LOT of cash :-)

Syflex is avaiable for both Maya and XSI seperately for 2200$

B)Maya has new versions on the work.
With rumors of Alias now ALSO targeting at a lower tier than movie studios and the acquisition of Kaydara motion builded by Alias pretty much means that Maya goes forward

C)You come from lightwave,and being lightwave user you should be used on TEXT BUTTONS and not on silly icons

Maya hotbox=the love

Unless ur studio is urgent to get things going,i would suggest you wait a bit
But even if ur urgent,and care for ur wallet, you can have the best of both worlds by buying a few XSI fudumentals($499?) for the modellers and a few Maya Unlimited(7k) for ur particle and fluid effect needs.

[Myliobatidae]

Ok... in defence of Maya

A)Syflex does NOT come with the basic edition and u need the advanced one which cost a LOT of cash :-)

Syflex is avaiable for both Maya and XSI seperately for 2200$

B)Maya has new versions on the work.
With rumors of Alias now ALSO targeting at a lower tier than movie studios and the acquisition of Kaydara motion builded by Alias pretty much means that Maya goes forward

C)You come from lightwave,and being lightwave user you should be used on TEXT BUTTONS and not on silly icons

Maya hotbox=the love

Unless ur studio is urgent to get things going,i would suggest you wait a bit
But even if ur urgent,and care for ur wallet, you can have the best of both worlds by buying a few XSI fudumentals($499?) for the modellers and a few Maya Unlimited(7k) for ur particle and fluid effect needs.

I'm sorry, you must have misunderstood me, I was speaking of XSI advanced and Maya unlimited, which are the same price...

[JDex]

Lots of strange arguements here on both sides...

Questions for the original poster:

1. How many seats are we talking about?
2. Do you need particles?
3. Do you need PaintFX?

You have fluids... your systems will run both.

If the answer to Q1 is >1 and if Q2 or Q3 is answered Yes... get XSI for 1+ computers... and Maya for 1+ computers... then use the built in compositor in XSI or the compositor of your choice to bring it all together.

If the answer to Q1 in 1... then flip a coin, because you're not going to get much more flame-free, and accurate info than you already have.

[scroll-lock]

Lots of strange arguements here on both sides...

Questions for the original poster:

1. How many seats are we talking about?
2. Do you need particles?
3. Do you need PaintFX?



1: 4-5
2. yes
3. yes.

:)

[JDex]

Okay... so then how does this make sense for you?

Buy 2 seats of XSI Advanced, 1 Seat of Essentials, 2 Seats of Foundations, 1 Seat of Maya Unlimited and a Standalone Mental Ray Seat (2 processor I would assume)... you then have access to everything you need and a whole lot of Mental Ray available for each side...

That's 3 seats for compositing, lots of dynamics flexibility, plenty of XSI character animation and a seat of XSI available on all machines for continuity.

Then down the road, should the need arise, just upgrade the lower level seats of XSI.

[MatrixNAN]

Hey Guys,

Houdini is worth it for the VFX over maya. I mean you will have to have alot more people doing alot of mel programming in Maya for what you can do with just one seat of Houdini with no coding. So I mean you get the costs back in the number of people you need to tackle the project.

XSI also comes with its own Crowd Simulation tool Behavior for XSI Advanced as opposed to Maya Unlimited. Behavior is a good Crowd Sim tool too.

Cheers,
Nate Nesler

[peliosis]

Hum hum...
I used some software (max:) XSI some LW and some Maya), now I'm learning houdini and from how far I am, I can tell that it's worth to cut through some heavy obstacles in learning and not just as easy as point and create solutions.
Houdini is very capable and I disagree that it should be incorporated in big productions only.
It is a common logic.
It is the most logical and powerful software I used.
Only people don't like to learn it I don't know why.
What I truly detest about other software is the "delete,recreate" idea of modeling.
It takes days to rebuild a model if client changes something, when it is very big there is a problem of polycount, blah blah.
In houdini such things just doesn't exist. Your model is a living matter with the ability to morph into anything in any state of the production.
Most "3D artists" are encapsulated in the common thinking world, and houdini lets us experiment without virtually any extents, any barriers After many years it still is the most innovative environment.
I'd better go back to my tuts;)

P

[BigCurly]

You get 8 satellite cpus for MR rendering with Maya 6.5 Unlimited and 2 with Maya Complete.

http://www.alias.com/eng/products-services/maya/new/mental_ray.shtml

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