Why is LW so whacked?

[oddjob101]

I think all apps go through this - eventually LW will bounce back and you'll wonder why you even bothered with XSI. :)

[uncon]

LW had bone deformation, IK, HDRI support, GI/radiosity, raytracing, standard long before Max (or most other apps) shipped with these features. Lightwave and Newtek have a long history of being inovative and staying competative. In my opinion (I use Lw on a daily bases for work) Lightwave is a very strong 3D app and many things going for it. I push it as hard as I can go and it's never failed me.

[pooby]

I wish I had optimism like that.

[vonbon]

I started writing a reply but i said why bother. Its easy to tell when ppl are lookn for ways to ease the pain of thier own short comings. :rolleyes: hehe have a good day.

[leigh]

I started writing a reply but i said why bother. Its easy to tell when ppl are lookn for ways to ease the pain of thier own short comings. :rolleyes: hehe have a good day.

All software packages have problems. I don't think that Cman is blaming any shortcomings of his own on LightWave...

[Cman]

LW had bone deformation, IK, HDRI support, GI/radiosity, raytracing, standard long before Max (or most other apps) shipped with these features. Lightwave and Newtek have a long history of being inovative and staying competative. In my opinion (I use Lw on a daily bases for work) Lightwave is a very strong 3D app and many things going for it. I push it as hard as I can go and it's never failed me.

Hmm...
But these are all kinda "big ticket" things, when the nuts and bolts get's looked over.
Like something many have asked for years, to be able to make a spline, extrude on that spline, then change the spline and have the extrusion update - where is that?

Where are edges? Just selecting edges even, let alone weighting them.


I was one of the first to add bridging through lscript because I saw it in other packages.
But why wasn't it in LW to begin with? It's not until v8 that it's added, and it's really just a previously free plugin that's now simply shipped with LW.

But as vonbon says, maybe I'm just whining and crying about what LW doesn't have instead of just using the other apps and being happy about what they DO have.

I guess I shouldn't be upset I've sent Newtek thousands of dollars over the years to get updates that are not much more than a repackaging of previously free or commercial plugins. (see v8)

vonbon is quite right - I'll just put my money where my mouth is and leave it at that.
I don't plan to comment on this thread again.
Sorry to have bothered.

Have a nice day.

[uncon]

So the "big ticket" items can be dismissed? I don't understand your frustration. What do you want out of Lightwave? what's the problem?

[Ramon]

C4D has some great features I wish LW had. However, I can't stand it's interface. :rolleyes:
On a positive note; I recieved an email response from the guys at Newtek telling me that they are working on the features that I (and probably every other user that sent them a "features" request) asked them for. REALLY IMPORTANT ONES (for modeling at least): Ngons, Edge support with extrusions, weighting etc; and last but not necessarily least, SubPixel Displacement. So I am heartened by their quick responce in acknowledgement and that they are working on it. I just hope it's much sooner than much later.
The soft selections you mentioned would be nice but, depending on what it is you are doing, you maybe able to use weight maps to achieve that. It's a runaround, I know.

[vonbon]

Cman i hope you look back at this :love: I didnt mean to come off as a !@#$%. tho i can be a smart @$$. Im just havn fun really, no mistake i did mean what i said but not to hurt ya. So now ima write what i was gone write.

In my opinion they make these programs based on what "we" as artist want. I cant speak for everybody but i know when "I" think the program should work a certain way and it doesnt its usually cause i want somthn to work faster, easier, more in depth, or just a way "I" think is better. Your opinion on how it should work counts also, like everybody else who does graphics. So if you a software developer, who do you listen to. At what level of complexity do you approach it. How much money is R&D gone cost:surprised . So why its probly impossible to please everybody, why "we" as artist (at least in this forum) fightn or bashn about it. If you see somthn thats cool in another program and you cant do it in lightwave, and they are important enough to where you think you should switch then by all means switch to get the job done. If the cost(time=money) out weigh the workaround then do what you have to do.

I just think instead of coming here with negativity maybe you could have came and presented what the other program has, ya know "hey check this out, wonder how it could be acheived in LW" "Help" us with a workaround. I mean, us users of LW know what we aint got(sometimes we just dont know the process) but still. Unless you being a critic of artwork, bring somthn positve to the forum, hehe but i know some feelings can get hurt when people critique artwork. Lets help each other, u might like the workaround we come up with better than the way ya program does it. :twisted:

Brand (A) :beer: Brand (B)

[cresshead]

every 3d app his it's set of weaknesses...and that includes xsi, max, maya and c4d


cinema4d:note that cinema 4d has just got ngons...it took 9 releases to get 'em...
and cinema's renderer is really not there as yet..

3dsmax 7 still can't select/manipulate the projected sub d points...you can in the very latest version 7 "see" the porjection so it looks nicer but the points still float above...lightwave has had this for years...xsi has them now as well.


xsi's render tree is hard to grasp for most new users, it feels quite alien to what they have used before with max, lightwave etc...and they only just added render balls/boxes in version 4...before that there were no shader balls...
and whilst metal ray is nice...you don't have much of a choice for renderers in comparion to 3ds max which has scanline,mental ray,vray,brazil,illustrate,final render.....etc.

maya continues to be a mish mash of render capability with some fx that will only work in a particular renderer and not others...


depends how you look at it i surpose...is your glass half empty or half full?

i use max, lightwave and xsi foundation...to be very honest they are all irritating i just think that lightwave tends to irritate me less than the others on most occasions...!

[Shade01]

I use Maya all day at work. Sometimes I'm like wow! This is so much easier to do than in Lightwave, why can't Lightwave be like this? Then other times I'm like wow! this sucks! It's so much easier to do it in Lightwave, why can't Maya be like this? I've also used XSI and Max and thought very similar things.

The long and short of it is all 3d apps suck in different ways.



oh, and I'll be watching this thread. Play nice.

[Julez4001]

I will say this: Modo is kicking a and taking names. Its just silly at what they consider a patch and they even list a release date on the feature update. Some toosl LW already has but its just how fast they were able to be get them out integrated in the app, being that they are a "new" kid on the block and all. I am waiting for LW 8.2 but compared to what others are doing it just kills me to see that are literally "dragging" behind. The IK and deformation speed upgrades I have been crying about since 6.5 would make all those character tools that 3rd party release even better and even the new ones in [8]. But no matter what tools they give you, they get shortchanged by the slowness of deformation, slow expressions and IK slow speed. I am still thinking the new team are trying to get the heads around LW and it shows in the speed of how each patch is released. For the record, while the new features like ghost for IK is cute, the bigger problems need to be addressed or prioritize:

(A really old list)

Ik Speed
Deformation speed
Expression speed
AE export
Full PSD export
If you gonna use IK boost, make it worthwhile and allow it have simple locked down (for feet).



Surpass has stopped me from asking for multipass manager but it tools like that that should have been there in some form or manner. The UV features is a great step in the right direction but would love to use it soon.

[vonbon]

ive seen complaints about the PSD Exporter alot. Ive used it before and it seemed to work fine for me. it split diffrent things up like spec, reflc, difuse, etc. in diffrent layers when i opened it in photoshop. just curious, how is it suppossed to work.

[Chewey]

Must be that time of year when all the "LW doesn't have edges, blah, etc, blah," regulars/whiners come out to rant and rave.

Groundhog day redux...

[LucentDreams]

I usually don't get involved with these threads ont he "other" forums, but after a polite discussion with none other then policarpo the other day regarding getting endomorphs into cinema 4D I thought this time I would.

one thing people really don't seem to get is shortcomings of each app. There are 48% of people who use an app that just praise it regardless. There are another 48% that use an app that are always noting that the grass looks greener on some other apps lawn. then theres that small 4% (okay maybe a little higher on this one a little lower on the others) that seem to get that they are all essentially the same (in terms of the top five) with a few really nice advantages in some areas then all the others, and some serious lackings in other areas then all the others.

For instance as mentioned off the start, cinema 4D has this amazing After effects bridge (well really cinema has the best support for IO support for AE and PS to my knowledge still, especially with BP installed.) But as we discussed in the endomorph discussion, cinema still uses copies of the mesh for morphing rather then storing them in the mesh itself, also making it impossibl to update the original without screwing all the morphs p as they don't compensate/adjust with this alteration.

Maya released some special tools for Character Animation not too long back, and i remmember a lot of C4D users including myself laughing at many of the ones mentioned because our MOCCA module (quirky as a lot of the module is) had these features initially (maxon beat XSI and maya to the soft IK/softconstraint punch)

Want to talk about odd things being added lae in the game, C4D didn't have multi selection of objects till R8. That said they've had falloffs that maya still doesn't have since version 5, and even provided new altered version of the falloffs (while maintaining the old ones partly for legacy but also minor speed differences) that were even more accurate now allowing for true light faloffs that were slightly off in prior versions.

Cinema has a gear shape (spline) making it easy to make a proper gear in two steps (shape and then extrude the shape) while maya doesn't have such a shape so making one requires careful drawing of one or modeling wiht polygons, and isn't procedural so it can't easily be altered in terms of number of teeth and such.

When you choose an app nowadays between the top five, its a plain and simple fact that your going to give up some features to get others. Really look at what you need carefully before you purchase to make sure the one you get best suits your needs.

Oh and Cresshead, what do you mean by the renderer is not theirs really? cinema 4D's renderer is theirs, cebas provided help in areas such as GI, SSS (which I don't know if you've seen but the SSS shader they helped make for cinema is a joke and part of the reason I'll never take final render seriously either.) and two post effects. They didn't code these things entirely for cinema and nothing else in this impressive renderer (the only other one of the top five t note is LW's as we all know, the others all sucked and had to resort to paying mental images to get a good renderer) is even related to cebas and all those thigns are now totally in maxon's hands (hope maxon redoes the SSS, and the DOF cebas provided all over cause both are usless junk 90% of the time and leave users like me using plugins to compensate the majority of the time.)

while cinema just got ngons, thats true, but out of the top 5 they are the most flexible ones of the bunch. You can display the tirangulation of ngons at anytime, you can have entire unconnected holes in an ngon (only other is maya out of the top five) cinema has two methods of Catmull-clark subdivision of the ngons one that preserves the holes (unheard of in any of the other five, since three don't have the ability, and maya does this horrible twisting thing) and the other treats the hole as non existent (better overall subdivision of the model but rather then resorting to the same horrible twisting as maya, the simply trate the ngon containing the hole as an ngon wihtout the hole at all) All tools support otpional methods for either creating ngons or not, most apps don't offer the choice, the either always do or always don't create ngons such as a cut or multiple segment extrude. Sometimes apps are late in the game for stuff but when enough users ask for it, usually they not only add it, but try to make it one of if not the best.

As I said some apps are better in one area som in others. Cinema has edge weighting, but honestly I prefer the weighting in LW from the few examples I've seen, and cinema just got a pixel shaded map representation of that weighting in R9 while LW has had it for how long?







While a bit off topic here, since the main people here are LW users and cinema 4d has been mentioned (and Im a mod for them.) I just though I'd bring up the awesome compatibility of these two apps. i know a few users now using both that would probably agree (policarpo and splinegod for example) that its actually quite impressive how much of the LW file is supported by cinema and how easy it is to work on them together.

[SplineGod]

Kai,
I couldnt have put it better myself. C4D is a natural when it comes to working with LW.
Its difficult enough to master one app. Lightwave for me is a great choice because its easier IMO to master most aspects. I do a great deal of contract work. Some days Im doing complex medical animations, another flowing Lava and character work another day. If I were using an app that forced me to specialize Id die of starvation. With that in mind Im careful about choosing applications that work well with my app of choice. When it comes to that C4D really stands out. I can load most of a LW scene file into it including objects and textures.
This allows me to use the best of both worlds. I can use Lightwave to its fullest and for those things I cant do easily or at all I can do in C4D. I dont know if Ill ever master C4D like I have LW but Im not forced to because of the excellent LW support in it.
I think its a great idea to make apps play together well. Id like to see Newtek get better at doing this as well. I have no intention of ever "jumping ship". I have too much time, effort and money invested in LW. I dont have a problem with bringing in other tools that compliment my investment. The less friction between tools the better. :)

[Julez4001]

Yep its that time gain, its usually when they start seeing the other apps progress and move on. Notice my list is the "same old, same old" its been for years, However they did get the dopesheet integrated so I guess I "shouldn't" complain.

[PetterSundnes]

When I was to decide what 3D application to use for interactive 3D at work, I could have chosen any application I wanted, XSI 4.2 Advanced, Max 7.0... I needed an application which could give me a no fuzz approach to low-poly modeling for prototyping my interactive 3D programming (mainly ShockWave3D).

LightWave lacks many of the features found in applications such as XSI, especially parametric modelling, but thats also why I chose LW... I need a polygon to be a polygon, not an instance of a clone of a primitive with modifiers applied. Sometimes you might want to create a massive 3D scene, with all sorts of simulation going on and multi pass renders. That said, in my experience, most of the time I have a few hours to complete my interactive projects, not several weeks, and so I need all the tools I use to have a no-fuzz-approach. If I have to spend most of the time setting up hierarchies witin a scene, then I wont have the time to program the interactivity for it.

I do also like the way C4D and XSI works with modeling and scene setup (when I have the time to create more in-depth setups), and dont get me started on how incredibly nice the new modeling tools for C4D is... but when trying out LW->SW, it just felt best for my work, so I told my boss thats what I needed.

Whenever I use LightWave, it actually helps me produce polygons, and applies textures for me where I want them to be placed, and makes it all into a format I can create interactive presentations with.

Oh, and people, dont forget LW has had direct manipulation of the sub-d cage for years (MetaNurbs), while others have gotten it just recently (and still absent in some).

Now, go through my ShockWave tutorials and create something cool I can play with http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/grin.gif

[policarpo]

Your frustrations and observations are totally rational and founded CMan. I remember when I downloaded your modeler scripts. They opened a whole new world of modeling in LW for me and I for one was really happy that you made these tools for us (you saw a limitation and decided to create something to make things easier-I just wish you got paid once these scripts were cobbled up and ported as a new feature).

Having sat on the fence and used several apps...I made a decision a little over a year ago to migrate to C4D (because in the end what I decided was to ease some of the frustration I was having with LW). Now, having said that, while I use C4D for nearly everything I do these days, I still keep an eye on the evolution of LW (since I am vested in it) and hope it progresses to that place we all know it should go in. It is a good application, but it feels more and more like a seasoned 1990 Chevy S-10 instead of a shiny new SUV that we see driving around (sure it works, and works well...but there are easier ways of doing things these days).

Procedural tools are the future. It's time to go for the core and build it up new.

For whatever it is worth CMan, just try out some of the other apps over the next several months (it really only takes a couple weeks of using an app to determine which one fits your workflow best). And when you decide on the one that fits your workflow, start using it more and more (you can get demos for all of them these days).

LW 8.2 is coming out soon, but in all honesty, Siggraph 2005, is going to be the make or break date for LW (if we don't see something big, revolutionary, amazing) well...I think we'll see a lot of people transition and adopt new tools to make their work faster, better and more satisfying.

Take a deep breath CMan...you've done great things for us.

Cheers.

[lwbob]

I will say this: Modo is kicking a and taking names.
What is funny is that all the official cgtalk What LW needs threads sounds like a Modo feature list. With that said there does sound like some cool stuff in 8.2.

[Steve Warner]

What is funny is that all the official cgtalk What LW needs threads sounds like a Modo feature list.
Seeing as the developers of Modo were also the original developers of LightWave, that sort of makes sense. What frys my bacon is that they developed Modo during the time that they should have been working on LightWave. Rather than integrating new features for NewTek (as they were contracted to do), they gave us minor patches and half-baked new features, then put the goods into Modo. If anyone is to blame for LightWave's lack of innovation of late, it's Alan and Stuart. They held back development for years and we're still paying for it.

[policarpo]

Seeing as the developers of Modo were also the original developers of LightWave, that sort of makes sense. What frys my bacon is that they developed Modo during the time that they should have been working on LightWave. Rather than integrating new features for NewTek (as they were contracted to do), they gave us minor patches and half-baked new features, then put the goods into Modo. If anyone is to blame for LightWave's lack of innovation of late, it's Alan and Stuart. They held back development for years and we're still paying for it.

What's done is done. No one knows the whole story except the parties involved. I for one no longer care. I am an artist and just want solutions that work and work well.

There is no sense in crying over spilt milk.http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/love.gif

[Steve Warner]

What's done is done. There is no sense in crying over spilt milk.http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/love.gif
If that's true, then what's the point of this thread? :shrug:

[SplineGod]

Steve you nailed it! I dont spend my hard earned cash on people with tendencies to do that sort of thing on the backs of loyal customers and then bail. Newtek has always been around even when things got tough. They seem to have a sense of customer loyalty.

Policarpo,
Youre right, there are other apps out there that can fill in where needed. I have other apps
and others here do too. Luckily software isnt like an endangered species when once its gone its gone forever. Im also vested in LW and intend to continue using it.
I can agree with that to a point about the past but sometimes spilled milk just leaves a bad smell.. :)

[lwbob]

Seeing as the developers of Modo were also the original developers of LightWave, that sort of makes sense.

not really following your point of view on that one.


What frys my bacon is that they developed Modo during the time that they should have been working on LightWave.

I doubt that since they didn't release Modo the day after 7.5 hit the street.


If anyone is to blame for LightWave's lack of innovation of late, it's Alan and Stuart. They held back development for years and we're still paying for it.

Not what I've heard but feel free to keep believing that.

[lwbob]

Steve you nailed it! I dont spend my hard earned cash on people with tendencies to do that sort of thing on the backs of loyal customers and then bail. Newtek has always been around even when things got tough. They seem to have a sense of customer loyalty.



Look out splinepants is on another one of his anti-luxology rants.

[Julez4001]

Rather than integrating new features for NewTek (as they were contracted to do), they gave us minor patches and half-baked new features, then put the goods into Modo. .........., it's Alan and Stuart. They held back development for years and we're still paying for it.


The fact that these guys left must have been some bad blood between them and Newtek, early on.
Usually rights or pay or "fair" compensation for the backbone of Newtek (VT isn't it). I can't blame them if they feel they were not being treated what they (programmers and all) are worth. These guys made Lightwave so if you feel so jipped by these guys .... you are still using something THEY created from day one.

What about the guys that created Hypervoxel? They are to blame too for lack of innovation?
Whoever told these guys to "get out" is to bear the most of the blame, you don't fire "creators" (different from just programmers) just too make a point.

[policarpo]

If that's true, then what's the point of this thread? :shrug:

I dunno...you raised the flag and I merely commented on what you were waving.http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

[SplineGod]

Look out splinepants is on another one of his anti-luxology rants.

Sorry bob, didnt realize you were so sensitive... :cry:

[Sil3]

Seeing as the developers of Modo were also the original developers of LightWave, that sort of makes sense. What frys my bacon is that they developed Modo during the time that they should have been working on LightWave. Rather than integrating new features for NewTek (as they were contracted to do), they gave us minor patches and half-baked new features, then put the goods into Modo. If anyone is to blame for LightWave's lack of innovation of late, it's Alan and Stuart. They held back development for years and we're still paying for it.

How do u know that?

Just curious because i have the "feeling" that Alan and Stu "left" or "stoped" developing for NT right after LW 7 (more than 2 years ago) , but this is only a "feeling" that i have and like the majority of us im not sure about anything.

LW stagnated for whatever reasons and NT took too long to replace the DEV team by whatever reasons to...or who knows if Alan and Stu wanted Modo (Nexus) to be the new re-write of LW and again by whatever reason that didn´t/couldn´t happen while they were in NT. In the meanwhile Modo was being developed and all other 3d packages where in constant development while LW was not, this is the only certain that i have :hmm:

"Blaming" Alan and Stu for something they did not implement in LW but MODO has is kinda harsh IMO, mainly because we dont know the circunstances ( maybe u do) why development was or was not made into LW. It´s like blaming PMG for not implementing Messiah into LW´s core, and instead they went standalone. They did what they though was right, some liked it, some didn´t. Yes it would be cool in 2000 if LW 6 had Messiah into it´s core, didn´t happened, though luck... wanted it? Well buy it as a standalone.

When u bough LW u knew exactly what u were getting, either u get along with that or u dont, either u stay with the tool or u leave to other packages, i did.

Speculations apart i only whish that LW will be again what it once was, i have my doubts, but nothing is impossible with hard work and dedication, lets wait for Sig2005 :)

[chikega]

Like Policarpo said, we'll never know the entire story ... but it does seem that some developers were not treated well ... remember the Shave and Haircut fiasco? He left the LW community to develop for Maya, XSI, and C4d .... it's sad to think that he developped S/H for LW first and at such a great price. And Lip Service was a pretty clever app as well. I dunno ... somewhere, somehow along the line, compromises were dropped and egos got in the way of the bigger picture. <sigh> :sad:

[thx1138]

Seeing these kind of discussions remind me of the days of the Amiga. I remember spending at lot of time on Usenet talking to PC users that the Amiga was so much better than PC's. I used to sit at a PC and think, "hell, why does this suck so much, why can't Windows have true preemptive multitasking." (this was around 1991). Or why can't I output my animations to video without an expensive add-on.
Think of how much that has changed nowadays. I use PC's constantly. And I'm not bothered by their shortcomings. So somehow, the PC has grown to a level that makes me as a user happy. I can get the job done. I think this is the basic principle. When a tool (yes, LW is only a tool) helps you get the job done, there's nothing wrong with it. Sure, there can be better tools that get the same job done in less time, or cheaper, but that doesn't write-off every other tool.

Today, the Amiga is no longer a suitable option to choose instead of a PC or Mac. It doesn't get the job done. That's also a reason why I shifted from Amiga to PC years ago. This also is true for Lightwave. When it no longer get's the job done, people will stop using it. But this is not a sudden shift. It happens over a longer time. And during that time it's up to NT to take the next step and make LW compete with the other apps out there. This proces is normal. It happens it all other industries.
Compare it with cars. When you drive a 4 year old VW, you don't sell it the same day the new Toyota hits the market. Even if it's better than your VW (which it probably is). As long as that VW get's you from A to B. Just wait 2 more years when the new VW hit's the market. By then it will be better than the last Toyota. But even then, you can probably still use your old VW as long as it can take you from A to B.

[lwbob]

Sorry bob, didnt realize you were so sensitive... :cry:

Actually not having you around to spam their forums is a plus.

[vonbon]

Fight! :bounce: Fight!


:twisted:

[cresshead]

i think there's a fair bit of "grass is greener" going on about other apps in comparison to lightwave...it's easy to read spec sheets of other apps and think geez...lightwave really does'nt compare nowdays...but that's just not correct..all apps will "play up to" their cool features and strengths and will go the extra mile to hide/play down what they really can't do that well..


my personal view is that both lightwave and 3ds max have one great plus that maya/xsi and cinema still need to get right...both lightwave and max are logical in that you can guess what/where and how to do stuff without having to wade thru your help files too often where as xsi and maya lean heavly on them at every turn...now maybe that's because they are more complicated/in depth etc...but when you spend a large amount of time in a app there should be a point to where you get to think like the people who made it and can just get on with making cool 3d...maya an xsi in particular seem the thrive on over complicating the most basic of some tasks to the point where you would be happy
to strangle who made/laid out the tool/proceedure they are torturing your head with...

in the end of the day if you feel lightwave isn't cool...off ya go try out xsi and maybe, just maybe you'll find that all that glitters is not gold...or maybe you will...good luck anyways!

steve g

lightwave
xsi
3dsmax
combustion

[schuubars]

Someone should close this thread.


BTW

lwbob you should learn a little thing named respect for peoples.


Many peps on CGTalk are so fanatic as gamers(sure not all) with no respect to others, go an invest your time better somehow else.

counter-strike - quake
maya - xsi - c4d - lightwave - max
linux - windows - mac
nvidia - ati


and so on... waste of time

[-NG-]

Someone should close this thread.

Yeah, c'mon guys, everybody has his own opinion about all the app's out there and you should respect that opinion. They all have there strenghts and weaknesses, i for that matter really like the flow of LW and the easy to understand interface, compared to the at first complicated interface of maya, ive checked c4d out at my school and are eager to learn more about it:)But i geuss it all has to do with money and budget of the company's who are making the app's, ok so a certain app lack's alot of features compared to other's, but there's probally a good reason for it, budget perhaps.

Just respect each others opinion and stay nice :) Be a human...

[vonbon]

Ding dING :scream: BREAK!!! Dats da bell gentlemen, to ya corners. :applause:

:D Whos gonna win it folks. will it be "Splinepants" or "CrybabyBob"

Place ya bets :deal: < HERE

:argh: its a commercial, dont :cry: talkers we'll be right back with the next post of.


"LIGHTWAVE IS WHACKED"

[rendermania]

my personal view is that both lightwave and 3ds max have one great plus that maya/xsi and cinema still need to get right...both lightwave and max are logical in that you can guess what/where and how to do stuff without having to wade thru your help files too often where as xsi and maya lean heavly on them at every turn

Hmm, dunno if that's quite right (what's a lightwave fight without some C4D folk crossing over to join the fray...:D). Maybe I'm a little biased, but my impression is that Cinema has the simplest UI structure out of the big five apps. The only bits of Cinema that get a bit hairy are Mocca (character animation) and Xpresso (visual expression building). The rest is a real no brainer, certainly compared to Max or Maya. XSI... hmm. Logical in the basics, but the render settings and some of its scenegraph functionality are a wee bit quirky.

But yes, the grass is always greener on the other side. I could help but notice the 'what about pyrocluster' thread. Pyrocluster isn't all that great. At least not the Pyro 1 we have. Max has a newer version. Pyro 1 renders pretty slow unless you really turn the settings down. Animation capabilities aren't exactly great either. Yeah, it looks like fire/smoke etc, but it doesn't exactly animate like Chaosgroup's Aura for Max for example. My impression is that Stormtracer is taking over from pyro for those kinds of effects for a lot of C4D users.

Lightwave actually got quite a few tools earlier than C4D. Its been quite a wait for C4D to get stuff like decent bonetools, morph targets etc. I remember LW 5.5 having that stuff when I watched people use it. At around the same time, Cinema R6 had much faster rendering than LW, but far fewer CA tools. Lightwave's Lscript also seems quite popular while the number of Cinema users digging into COFFEE is pretty anemic. Just a few plugin devs mostly. Most people can't get their head around the C++ syntax. :)

In any case, happy fighting. Feel free to cross over for a beer every now and then. :beer:

[PetterSundnes]

Bashing of software and corperations are ok, but when it turns into a war between individuals... :rolleyes: no good.

It smells like thread closure coming up, instead of making this into a constructive kick at NewTek/LW, which it should be.

[lwbob]

Bashing of software and corperations are ok, but when it turns into a war between individuals... :rolleyes: no good.

And that is EXACTLY what it turned into when Allan and Stuart's names were pulled into it. Even mentioning them as "the developers" was turning it into bashing individuals.

[Netvudu]

I don´t understand why intelligent people loose their time "bashing" anything (or anyone by the way) instead of praising everything. I mean LW has some great stuff going there. Let´s focus on that...but it doesn´t have that very cool thing that Maya just brought in, let´s praise that cool maya feature.

Criticizing Lw or any other app because they didn´t bestow a given feature, is like getting angry with your son because he can´t run 100 meters in 9.7 secs even if he can jump 5 meters high without a pole (¡!). You can´t get angry for not having something. That´s childish attitude. Get the best you can afford and then do your best stuff with it.

I mean, I surely would like to go to work everyday in a private jet that at the same time allowed me travel underwater in case I need it...but for the moment I´m doing with an underground ticket, and wanna know something? it gets me to work as well!! dang underground workers! I wanna go flying!! let´s bash ´em to death! :)

So the moral is: praise, praise!...and make your job at the end of the day...

[Shade01]

It's like clockwork with you guys. closed.