Should rigging be this difficult....

[Cactus Dan]

Howdy,

ps. If Cactus Dan weighs in. When are your CDIK tuts coming out?

I reckon I better get busy on them. Sorry for putting them off for so long. I've been busy with the 1.2 update (which will be released in the next couple of days).

I think that understanding Xpresso is an important part of rigging no matter what system you're using. A little 3D math knowledge will be a tremendous help, too, but it's not mandatory.

Adios,
Cactus Dan

[LucentDreams]

Difference between a rig and a good rig will often if not always mean customization via scripts or xpresso or custom plugins. Fact is a system can't be fully functional and still easy to use for animation. A lot fo the xpresso stuff you see, especially with MOCCA II and CDIK is more about making controllers to control the rig, not actually making the rig itself.

To make a stablerig with bones skinned to a mesh is easy with MOCCA II and CDIK (and others) However controlling it takes a lot of manual labour and carefulness. Thus many of us make special controls and such to help control things easier.

Rather then using rotation limits I choose to use slider to control the specific axis a bone or target will rotate on. this helps by limiting which way a bone can rotate to only one axis, and allow me to set the limit by adjusting the min max of the slide. not to mention sliding a slider is a lot easier then selecting the specific controller I want to rotate, changing to the rotate tool, rotating in editor with prcise clicking, and then changing back to the position tool.

the majority of the stuff I add to my rigs isn't about making it possible to use and animate with, its about making it easier and more convenient, the ability to animate it was in the original skeleton and Ik not in my custom controllers. a bad skeleton is still going to be bad when using custom controllers.

[edfenner]

It is an interesting question though. Of course all software can't be everything to everybody (and I love C4d and tout it all the time) but, if you have every watched someone use character studio with Max you do ask "why is it so hard for us?"

I used to work with a guy who used max and on any other task C4D and I could run circles around him. But rigging up and animating a character ( and he was not a good animator) and character studio allowed him to fly.
Would love to see another module "4D Rigger" (?) available for C4D. It would be one step closer to ruling the 3D world!


ed

[Jannis]

Cactus Dan CD IK is one of the easiest and most user friendly IK tools around. It has things that you will not find not only in Cinema but not even in Maya. The spine IK which he is bringing out on version 1.2 can only be found in XSI as far as I know. The hand expresion I have not seen anywhere else.

The kind of skeleton rig Kai is talking about with hand poses and sliders all the IK controlers in place and ready to go for a biped can be set up in 15 mnutes ready to go! I use Maya and I know that this is not possible in Maya for at least a few hours. In XSI you can get ready made components but if you customise you still can't beat CD IK.

Further more the Hand expresion that is coming out on version 1.2 is quite amazing and does away with posemixer or user data sliders and has also the added bonus of recording poses at will.

Anyone who things Character riging is difficult in Cinema has not tried CD IK. Now with this plugin I have even stoped using my Motionbuilder that much.

The only thing we are missing now is a better skinning tool, maybe weightlifter made better by Arntd or alot more improvements in Claude Bonnet.

Mocca riging is pretty good also but not as extensive as CD IK and has not made its mind up between soft and hard Ik (far too many tags and settings)

So, dowload the demo and give a go, see how easy it is.

regards

jannis

[edfenner]

Jannis,
Thanks for the info. Your right I haven't tried it but, I might be tempted. My reason (right or wrong) is this. It is just too dangerous to set-up a workflow based on third party plug-ins. Especially when they are created by a one man show [ Dan, please don't take any offense - as absolutely none is intended].
A case in point is bonderland - while that is an unfortunate (and extreme) example, it makes the point. A one man developer can switch apps, get bored, decided it isn't making enough $, etc. and then you have to re-vamp (if there is anything else even out there) and start over.

I know developers have a different opinion on this sort of thing. But, for me when Maxon buys something great like this, incorporates it and really develops it - it is the best for the end user.

[bobzilla]

Well, with CD IK Tools, you CAN litereally put together a basic working rig in a few minutes. But, as Kai and others have stated to make it more advanced and in turn more workable for animating, you're going to have to do a little customizing, but that depends on your needs.

For instance, to set up different foot controllers (toe roll, ball roll, heel roll) you're going to have to do that manually, but CD IK Tools makes that process very easy by making the original set up and hierarchy sensible and easy to customize.

Plus, when you purchase CD IK Tools you get great examples of different aspects of the tools as well as several full rigs that you can examine how they are made. If they look too complicated, just strip them down to what you think you're going to need.

I'm blabbering, but I really can't say enough good things about the plugin...and it's very inexpensive. So if Dan wins the lottery and decides his days are best spent with supermodels in Hawaii than making plugins, then your're out a couple of bucks but probably learned enough to rig on your own.

[mecha]

Hey all,

I think we are all on the same page. I have tried Character Studio and Motion Builder (a little) and was more impressed with the NON-character stuff such as the viewport speed in MB for example. Im glad people understood what I was trying to say as I didnt want to sound like a whinning little a***hole!

Cactus Dans tools are probably the only reason I havent dug deep for MB, but like Kai and Cactus said it is the Xpresso stuff needed to get the rig working much better that I am having problems with. Let me get specific again though.....

CDIK does everything I need, apart from one teeeny tiny job! I cant get the shoulders/biceps/forearms/hand chain to move when the Chest (or Torso) bone gets rotated or moved. For those who have CDIK, a good example is on the downloadable Biped rig. I think the xpresso is on the Spine Bone but I really dont get it.......

I think its just the final touches, like with my problem above, which would making rigging ultra easy for the 95% of us who just want to animate with a great, but perhaps not perfect and customised rig.

Finally, thanks Cactus for saving my interest in C4D character....something im pretty sure was Mocca II job. :shrug:

mecha

[Cactus Dan]

Howdy,

Dan, please don't take any offense - as absolutely none is intended

Hey, none taken. It's up to everyone to use whatever they feel most comfortable with.

Just to also plug my plugin (as Jannis has already done, thanks), my buddy is an avid 3DS Max/Character Studio user, and he is impressed at what I've accomplished with CD IK Tools (and we all know how difficult it is to impress Max users :D ).

Anyway, it's still as Kai said that no matter what, you still have to finish the rig off with Xpresso to make it really usable for animation, and that's with any system or application.

Adios,
Cactus Dan

[Cactus Dan]

Howdy,

So if Dan wins the lottery and decides his days are best spent with supermodels in Hawaii

Hey, thanks Bob.

The last time I went out to the bar drinking, a buddy of mine said as I left, "Don't get pulled over." and guess what happened....

so, I'm keeping my fingers crossed at what you said.

Adios,
Cactus Dan

[Jannis]

If I might add a little more to this... You realy don't need that much Expresso to get a pretty good rig going. Just a few simple nodes here and there will do the trick. Sometimes it sounds as if we need reems of code to do a decent rig and that is simply not true!


For instance, to set up different foot controllers (toe roll, ball roll, heel roll) you're going to have to do that manually, but CD IK Tools makes that process very easy by making the original set up and hierarchy sensible and easy to customize.

For this you don't need not even a hint of expreso, it is simply done with reverse foot set up which is incredibly easy to do. Ok, you might want to add some user data sliders but this only takes a few seconds.

In my experience riging is not all that dificult to do or understand in any application, what you need to do is brake down the skeleton in parts. First make a good leg rig, then a good spine (with CD IK this is a breeze) then an arm and then a head/neck. The secret is to keep the rig as modular as you can so you are dealing with small components as oposed to one huge hierarchical mess.

I think is time to get rid of this myth that somehow riging is such a difficult process. What is difficult is good animation.

regards

jannis

[LucentDreams]

Jannis makes a great point acutally. My rigs may have a lot of xpresso in them ( I do a lot of customization) but most if not all of those xpressions are pretty simple.

Typically my xpressins consist of:

>Connecting USER sliders to the objector parameter they will control
>Linking one object to another objects Matrix or individual PSR parameters
>changing color of somethign in the editor when a specific setting extends past a specific range ( I use this for feed back about spines stretching too far for example.)

now there others that I setup sometimes for very specific control and such but I'd say the vast majority is these types of things, a lot of which are as easy as using the set driver and set driven command.

there are sometimes whereI do go for much more complicated thorough xpressions for things, but often thattime is spent on soemthing easy to reuse over and over again such as my eye setup. The one included in my book Has sliders for pupil dialations, Depth of the iris, both of which can be used by a master slider or individual left and right ones, and then a specail control to allow me to place the specular highlight on the eye which sticks to its position on the eye when the eye moves, or to simply use specular highlights that actually come form the lightsources in the scene. In my own personal version that isn't included owiththe book i also have more customization for changine the size of the iris/pupil for larger or smaller eyes, and the colour, and which system I use to pose the eyes (either targetting as in the book, or using my own slider to move left and right and up and down for scenes when nothing specific is being looked at.) It took a long time to tediously connect all the wires (the xpressions are for the most part simple but require controlling a lot of gradient handles which is a slow process) and design all the parameters. But with the eyes, I can simply plop them onto any objects like a plane or a sphere or a cube, i can place them inside any head, and customize them without ever going into the shaders themselves (which puts me at risk of acidently breaking somethings or changing something i shouldn't) and animate them immediatley without any setup time.

Since its such a reusable thing i see no reason to make keep it simple and have to make it over again, instead it was better to make it complex once and never have to change it again.

[Decade]

Mecha, it really is worth learning a little Xpresso if you can.
I have no programming or scripting skills. I just started using set driven keys (from the tutorials that come with R8), then I opened it up and looked at the range mapper node & experimented with it 'till I understood it. I just leart little by little as I needed it.
Now I can come up with reasonably good Xpressos to help with my rig. It's very reassuring to know that when the tools run out, I can keep going, there are few insurmountable hurdles.
When I was working on the techniques from the 'stop staring' book, I couldn't have done it all without expresso.
Anyway, thats just my little rant.....Xpresso's great!

[mecha]

Thanks for the input guys!

Looks like I am going to have to get my head around Xpresso after all :cry:

One last thing (and I realise this may be perceived as extremely lazy and/or stupid) but does CDIK support IK/FK blending / switching? As a animation noob I have read alot about this and understand the reason for its use. I know there is a "Use IK" switch, is this the same kind of thing?

mecha

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