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crossbones
12-27-2004, 06:42 PM
I know that alot of us out there are learning anatomy and using Zbrush to sculpt muscles etc.

Anatomy Instructor Rey Bustos has updated his site with some amazing flash movies that explain a great deal

http://www.reybustos.com/03ra/ra.html
The images use Flash technology to interactively cross fade from Rey's drawing to the photo reference.
http://http://www.reybustos.com/flash/fade_Sarah_mx_.swf
http://www.reybustos.com/flash/fade_Sarah_mx_.swf

http://www.reybustos.com/04er/img/rtside_b.jpg
http://www.reybustos.com/05b/b.html

Zoomify flash movies that explain anatomy and how it works at the simplest level.

LoTekK
12-27-2004, 06:59 PM
Da-yum! That's incredibly helpful, taking the guesswork out of musculature study. Thanks for the heads up!

*Bookmarked*

Wilson-3d
12-29-2004, 02:06 PM
Thanks for pointing that out. Very nice reference.

ThomasMahler
12-29-2004, 03:22 PM
Wow, that really helps a lot! Great page, bookmarked already.

JOSICH
01-02-2005, 05:18 PM
I use the fitness magazines for the anatomi of the mens, and others like playb.. for the anatomi of the girlds.:D

It´s a coment nothing more.

smooth
01-02-2005, 06:03 PM
thnx a lot m8

seven6ty
01-03-2005, 04:41 AM
Yeah, thanks. Interesting and great reference material.

crossbones
01-03-2005, 04:54 AM
JOSICH: Rey Recommends a book called " Anatomy for WeightLifters" $8 online, it shows you what is going on under the skin when you weight lift. The problem is that most artists and designers don't have paitence to sit, look and understand the fundamentals of anatomy. All rey and I are doing are putting together reference for those designers.


All: Thank you for the comments: Please give me feedback on what you would like to see. We are in the process of creating an interactive DVD where 3D anatomy is explained in a fun interactive way.

seven6ty
01-03-2005, 06:46 AM
Artists who don't know anatomy??? Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron???

crossbones
01-03-2005, 06:57 AM
Some artists/ designers do not or are in the process of learning or for those who already know they are learning more.

seven6ty
01-03-2005, 07:22 AM
Eh, yeah, I suppose. I just always said you shouldn't call yourself an artist if you don't know how to draw. I guess I always looked at "designers" as more, I dunno, photoshoppers or something? *shrug*

APLevitz
01-03-2005, 12:32 PM
To say Matt Groening (http://www.thesimpsons.com/actors/index.htm) and Gary Baseman (http://www.garybaseman.com/) aren't artists would be a pretty controversial statement. You might be able to support it, but you'd be an ass to try.

To compliment them on their use of anatomy, however, would be equally wrong.

Levels of abstraction, friend. Different tools for different goals...

crossbones
01-03-2005, 01:04 PM
Don't get me wrong, I was posting a resouce I am building/improving for those that want information.
Designers as in conceptual designers etc.

seven6ty
01-03-2005, 01:53 PM
Are you kidding me AP? Both the links you posted (especially the first) are chock full of drawings. How are you implying that I think those guys don't know how to draw (to what level of quality isn't necessarily a question)? I was understanding "designers" to refer mostly to graphic designers. Animation (ie The Simpson) IS drawing.

Sorry, I sidetracked the discussion. :(

APLevitz
01-04-2005, 02:36 AM
Nope, not kidding you. Ready? :wavey:

I was examining this statement:Artists who don't know anatomy??? Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron???And it's connection to this one:I just always said you shouldn't call yourself an artist if you don't know how to draw.The question left hanging between there was "Can a person draw without knowing anatomy?"

Or rather, "Can we consider someone an artist who doesn't draw in a style requiring knowledge of anatomy?"

Of course we can. You agree, because it's ridiculous to think otherwise.

I wasn't so much implying that you thought these people couldn't draw, as I was forcing you to acknowledge that they can -- you're arguing my case against your own statement now. Which is the ultimate goal of any debate; an agreed conclusion.

Which brings us back to the beginning:

"Artists who don't know anatomy" are not in any way an oxymoron. They're probably more the standard than the exception.

-----

I guess we'll leave it at that. I'd like to discuss the assertion that artists aren't artists if they don't know how to draw (as I think that's a very narrow view of the creative process), but we can do that another time. Following that line WOULD hijack the thread, where I think we've actually managed to stay on topic thus far.

-----

crossbones:
That link's a handy resource, and I'm definitely interested in the 3D Anatomy DVD. Can you give us a hint when it'll be available, and what the projected cost will be?

crossbones
01-04-2005, 03:04 AM
What would you like to see is my question. What do you think would helpful for you to know anatomy. This is Rey's method coupled with a little technology to help. Where do you feel that you get lost? Rey's core method of teaching is telling you what is under the skin and teaching you how it works. Once one understands that knowledge, you can use it to create anything.

I am collecting data on how our methods can be improved to produce a DVD Rom with interactive video etc.

seven6ty
01-04-2005, 03:06 AM
Ah, I see. Well I'll be the first to admit that I have what most people would call a "fairly narrow and limited" view on what is art, but I'm all the more happier because of it. I hold it in high regard and something I take seriously, so I'm not as likely to consider a picture of a bulldog in a tutu as art.

As far as anatomy and drawing, yes, of course someone can draw without knowing anatomy. A person can doodle a noodle and "draw". But to consider themselves to "know" how to draw, and to be compitent at it, of course I think that a basic knowledge of anatomy is necessary. I'm sure any of the cartoonists working on the Simpsons and similar shows have at the very least, a basic knowledge of anatomy, even though the characters don't seem to rely on it too very much, I'm sure the skills are still there in the background, even if they aren't being shown off.

I look at it like this: Drawing is the most simplistic way of analyzing any of the visual arts. Any visual idea or problem encountered in the visual arts can be broken down using a simple pad of paper and a pencil. Also, it's the simplest way to convey your ideas in the visual arts to another person. You don't just jump into building a bridge without first drawing it out, do you?

Edit: Oh, and I just caught your post Crossroads... Exactly what is the DVD-rom designed to do... Teach people to draw or teach them anatomy?

Ernest Burden
01-04-2005, 03:18 AM
You can be an artist and not know how to draw. Many do just fine without any actual talent, even. But that's just a subjective opinion. The great thing about art is it is strong enough to survive even artists.

I do think that computers have drawn out a lot of people who would not otherwise be called 'artists'. That is both good and bad, depending on whom you are talking about. That's how it should be--a new tool demands some new hands. And its just another tool, another camera or airbrush or pencil. Art is the product of an artist and not his tools.

I do always encourage people to draw, even if they don't need to draw to do digital artwork. Drawing is good for you. Drawing is therapy. Especially human anatomy. You learn so much.

Most areas have a college within reasonable distance, at which there are usually drawing studio classes, meaning an open studio with a model where you pay a small fee to show up and just draw, paint, sketch, whatever. Not a 'class', no grades, just draw the model. If you want to find such sessions, try finding an art supply store and looking for a pin-up board, or ask a salesperson or a shopper buying paints or pencils. Somebody will usually be able to point you in the right direction.

Thank you for the link. That site is great. My son is learning to draw anatomy (and models in Zbrush about every day now) and I find myself doing those drawings over photos I find handy in clothing catalogs to explain muscle structures. He will get a lot from that site. He's too young to take to a live-model class (children aren't supposed to know people are ever naked, remember) so the drawings and model anims will really help him out (and me).

crossbones
01-04-2005, 04:00 AM
Rey is setting out to interactively teach anatomy in a fun appealing way. As a conceptual designer, he's given me the tools to disect what I see and create my own designs. Ever seen the skeleton of an ant eater. That nose is all bone. Rey has tons of skeletons of animals, preman, dinosaurs etc etc. He also can explain how it all works and muscles attach with saying very little words.


The DVD is still in the works, I am asking you what would you like to see in terms of 3D anatomy. What based on what you've seen in the sight are you still unsure about? Rey does teach how to draw but I don't think that will be discussed on his DVD.

My work is below...




http://www.reybustos.com/images/SketChBook_Zoo_03.jpg


http://www.reybustos.com/images/SketchBook_Zoo_04.jpg



http://www.reybustos.com/images/_done.jpg

Pinoy McGee
01-04-2005, 04:55 AM
Thanks for posting Ray's site and sharing your zoo sketches and model. I'm looking forward to the DVD's progress.

Where does Ray conduct his classes?


I am asking you what would you like to see in terms of 3D anatomy.

How 'bout an explanation as to which muscles are tense and which are relaxed for actions such as lifting weight off the ground, then walking; or, doing a tug-of-rope action (where lots of muscles are in use). Because muscle definitions (how they bulge or tense up) aren't visually evident until they're flexed. Biceps are easily observed. But what happens with the calves and back muscles. Where's the point where they tense up and where they start relaxing. And importantly, which muscles are visibly active over others (which ones are doing the flexing).

More to the point of what I'd be interested in is if there's a general rule, if you will, as to how different muscles react in different "generic" actions and body exertions. From a video game animator's standpoint, generic like pushing heavy doors; lifting bodyweight to climb or rising from a couch; hammering a la blacksmith; resisting a bear hug, etc.

crossbones
01-04-2005, 05:09 AM
He conducts classes at the http://www.laafigart.com/

Pinoy McGee
01-04-2005, 05:22 AM
Ooops, I've edited my post above w/ a feedback.:thumbsup:

chikega
01-04-2005, 05:36 AM
He conducts classes at the http://www.laafigart.com/
Man, I was getting dizzy watching those portraits whiz by ... I finally got the hang of the navigation though. Nice stuff.

Beautiful sketches, crossbones. By the way, how is that ant eater (aardvark) project coming along? I believe you showed those images on the messiah forum a year ago or so. Extremely nice modeling and character work. I would love to see some animation tests. :)

crossbones
01-04-2005, 06:17 AM
I will convey this information to Rey when I meet with him this week. He is very excited and eager to spread his to knowledge to all of.


Email Rey bustos (rey@reybustos.com (rey@reybustos.com) ) and ask him about which book he has in regards to anatomy and weightlifting. Its a cheap book but very great and helpful for what you are asking for. It shows what happens on the muscle level (seeing through the skin).

Just remember," Almost all your muscles flex when you are doing something as tense as what you described."

If you want to learn about how the arm works when lifting he has a black board on the subject. You can zoom in and see the lesson
http://www.reybustos.com/05b/BlackBoard_Arms_2_Zoomify_MX.htm
These drawings of quantae & Bambi can you show what happens when the arms flex & twist
http://www.reybustos.com/03ra/Quantae_Arm_mx.htm

http://www.reybustos.com/03ra/Bambi_Arm_mx.htm

chikega: Hey man! More Rendering videos soon by you! THanks for the comments on the drawings. The AntEater project was finished with that website I did. The modeling was really unecessary now that Zbrush exists and Messiah displaces. My focus is on conceptual design professionally but my heart still belongs to 3D.

ranger999
01-04-2005, 07:33 AM
man these are great.. thx alot...........

APLevitz
01-04-2005, 08:37 AM
seven6ty:
Nothing wrong with limiting which works you view as being art. But using the process itself as your criteria for that can close you off to possibilities in your own work.

You make a good point that drawing is a useful professional skill, and probably vital for any artist's career. Are we refining your definition to include that an artist must be employed as such, then? Either way, that minimal level of "communicate an idea on paper" is helped by (but by no means requires) a study of anatomy.

I was a little surprised to hear you say that, though. Drawing for analysis and communication, I wouldn't have thought you'd consider "knowing how to draw" because the final work is more functional than aesthetic; very rough, not fully rendered.

So I guess we need to explore this question:

How are you defining "drawing"?

I contend that drawing with black pencil on white paper is very different from drawing with white chalk on black paper. Both use light and shadow to define a form, but you come at the problem from opposite directions -- depending how you "see" the world, one of those is going to feel more natural than the other. They're very different; if you don't believe me, try creating the same scene in both.

Either approach gets the job done. Both are equally creative, and from an artistic standpoint, equally valid. But you're absolutely right that one's more practical, and more likely to keep a person employed.

Should this affect whether they're allowed to call themselves an artist?


I'm reluctant to state my own position on this, as I think it's going to descend into "I've found some of your work, and it is not art." But, I think some people might benefit from hearing this, so I guess I'll take that risk.
I'm sometimes jealous of people who can pick up a pencil and just start at the outer contours. It's like they're tracing a scene they had fully mapped out in their heads before they start. That's not how it works for me; I throw forms on the paper and refine them, discovering as we go. (I explained this to my grandmother once. She told that I'm not an artist, and will never be one until I can train my mind to work the other way. Perhaps you agree? I personally think she's got that backwards, that an artist improvises -- simply executing a plan is the technician's job)

I don't enjoy modeling from reference drawings. I can do it, but that's not where the joy is. For me, that's a technical process, not an artistic one. And trying to maintain orthographic continuity in your reference drawings sucks the life out of creating them. Again, that's just me. Others prefer that (and are all the more employable for it -- there's something to be said for fitting the industry standard!).

I mean, look. I create. I evoke emotion. I communicate ideas. And my work improves the longer I keep at it. If I thought as you did, I would have stopped a long time ago.

Do I call myself an artist? Sometimes. Depends who's listening.
Have I earned that right? Maybe. It's not for you to say.
----------

crossbones:
If you've got infinite resources, this seems more or less ideal:
You've got a split screen. On one side, muscle, bone and tendon. On the other, flesh. The same action is looped on both sides so we can see the deformations going on under the skin and how it affects the skin itself. The user has realtime camera control (of only one camera -- the other is linked, and will follow without additional input).

Sliders or keyboard hotkeys adjust the opacity of each element, or display an animation-friendly wireframe atop the shaded model if desired.

A "guided" mode takes control of these settings to highlight audio commentary, which in turn explains what we're looking at.

Each animation is based on accurate motion capture data, and models of different gender and body type are covered.
I don't see that happening, but if you can pull it off, more power to you! :thumbsup:


Failing that... Come on. He teaches ecorché, and you're in a ZBrush forum. Does this not seem like an obvious match?

Explain each bone, build each bone, export an OBJ file and in your animation program of choice, position it appropriately within the skeleton.
-
Explain each muscle, build each muscle, export an OBJ file, and in your animation program of choice, attach it to the skeleton the same way it exists in nature.
-
Leverage the fact that this is digital by scripting expressions to deform that muscle appropriately as the skeleton moves.
I don't own a copy, but I guess I'd recommend XSI as the other program for this -- it's got solid rigging controls, and you can wrap a skin atop your musculature, which is then driven by the underlying deformations.

Don't fear that it's too academic. It's a resource the world needs.

(In the absence of such a product, I was actually looking for a good ecorché class in Southern California. Thought I might partner up with the instructor afterwards to produce such a thing, but it looks like you beat me to it! That's good, though. I'm glad to see it, and fully support your efforts. In the meantime... I just wrote to the school to see if it's not too late to get in on this next session, which I believe starts Sunday morning.)

seven6ty
01-04-2005, 11:26 AM
Crossbone:

I think it would be good to approach anatomy from the beginning similar to drawing, teaching the large and basic forms that make up the body. From then, defining the major muscle masses in each portion of the body. It would be nice to get into detail on some of the more visible muscle groups and go into some detail on insertion points of those. Leonardo had a neat method of drawing strings instead of muscles, to convey the idea of where each muscle in a group began and ended. This can make it easier to see where the muscle is pulling from, and what it's pulling on. I think after all of this the lessons about what muscle groups are being tensed should follow rather naturally with a bit of practice on the part of the student, although it would be nice to see some action poses and explanations as well as weight balance.

There are a lot of drawing books which seem to cover exactly what you are talking about though, so perhaps you might have a better bet to try and tailor it to something specific, like perhaps modelling realistic anatomy in 3D animation programs or something similar, instead of just hitting the broad range of human anatomy.

AP:

The term drawing is pretty self explanatory, so I don't really care to get into it's definition to much, as that can easily be found by reading a few lines from a local dictionary. But basically, my personal definition at the moment would have to be representational mark making on a surface. (Not representational as in figurative or reality based, but representing something in general, be it thought, feeling, emotion, story, etc... rather than simply having no meaning or purpose.) And in this same vein, as you remarked on the relevancy of anatomical drawing, the human form is perhaps the most universal mode of transportation for expressing practically any thought, desire, emotion, story, state of mind, etc that you can think up. So just as drawing can be the most simplest and universal method of visual communication, so too the human body can be the most effective vehicle for expressing all of these things I just went over.

And nooo, I don't think one's employment in the arts necessarily has anything to do with the label itself, as I'm quite sure most of us know a great many people who we may judge to be more talented than those employed in an artistic field.

Actually I'd have to agree with you on form drawing vs. contour drawing. I don't tend to find contour drawings very interesting, as mostly they end up coming out looking like comic figures or something similar. In any well developed finished drawing, the artist had better have considered different poses, settings, etc. Referencing Leonardo again, he often had a practice of creating several different hand poses in a single drawing, before finally deciding on the approriate posture/pose for his figure. He worked it out while he was in progress, trying different approaches and possibilities.

Regardless, I still find drawing the simplest, quickest and most efficent way to practice any theory in the visual arts and so on. But yeah, I enjoy these discussions, kudos!

Ernest Burden
01-04-2005, 04:40 PM
Crossbone:
My response was too general, I was really just thanking you for the Ray link.

I really like your animal studies. Here in the New York Cty area we have the American Museum of Natural History. They have lots of 'stuffed animals' which are great to draw since they stand very still. Sure, its great to see how a living animal moves, but its harder to study the beast. A few days ago I went to a Christmas lights show at the Bronx Zoo and saw some tigers through a glass-walled enclosure--so from a foot away. What majestic animals they are! Interestingly, the Museum of Natural History has a huge collection of dinosaur bones, but never shows one with the 1/2 muscles like the Ray sculptures. I think that would be SO USEFUL for people to get a sense of dinos as flesh, and not just bones. Now my mother used to make dinosaur models for the Academy of Science in San Francisco. So I grew up with those sorts of things, but it was always in miniature. How grand it would be to do the dino real-size with muscles.

Back to your question though:

What I always find lacking in anatomy books is a sense of the overall massings and blockings of a human body in motion. Yes, Bridgeman has some good drawings like that, but not enough, if you look at a book like Barcsay's you see lots of good anatomy but almost NO massing.

Taking my son as an example, he is focusing too much on individual muscles. I try to show him the larger shapes and how they interact. In Poser there is a figure that is a cross between a manaquin and skelaton that is a useful simplification. What would be really great to show through 3D graphics is how weight falls on a figure and how energy flows through the body as it poses. My son draws an upper arm, then a lower arm. But really its one long dynamic structure with energy flowing from the shoulders right down to the fingers. That is the sort of thing that CG can demonstrate BETTER than a regular drawing. So that it what I would like to see.

When doing studio figure sketching (which I do all-too-rarely) I find that the big challenges come in the short poses, the 1 minute and the 5 minute. Because I am an experienced illustrator I can make a 10 or 20 minute drawing look good whether or not I've 'nailed' the pose. That's all illustrating. But a 1 minute requires a more fundamental conection to the pose. You can't fake that with shading, you either have it or you don't. That's drawing, and its hard. Show me how to see the pose's energy flow and you will teach me to draw the figure better.

APLevitz
01-05-2005, 12:40 AM
seven6ty:

Interesting.

I'm fully capable of making representational marks on a surface. Generally speaking, though, I'm not happy with my drawings. I'm a pretty good cartoonist, but if I have difficulty with perspective and foreshortening, so I end up avoiding a lot of the dynamic shots I want to create. That's largely why I got into the 3D -- it lets me arrive at those decisions with more of the work completed in front of me, and make adjustments after the fact.

That's huge. And if you asked me in any other context why that was so important, I'd tell you "because I can't draw."

Still trying to come to terms with my own double standards on that one. I like to think I'm a pretty good artist. But if I were limited to only pencil and paper, that impression would quickly dissipate.

So, yes. Because I'm not focused so heavily on drawing, I haven't put in nearly enough work on my figure drawing. Flat out, I haven't picked up an intuitive sense of anatomy. And while I'm clever enough to go my entire career without ever exposing that, I hate knowing there are limits to what I can do, which other artists aren't hindered by.

Hence, I'm first in line for Crossbones and Rey's DVD! :buttrock:

I'm sure any of the cartoonists working on the Simpsons and similar shows have at the very least, a basic knowledge of anatomy, even though the characters don't seem to rely on it too very much, I'm sure the skills are still there in the background, even if they aren't being shown off.That's a reasonable assumption. But if you're wrong, they totally got away with it!

You're probably not wrong, though. I can't think of any animation school that's going to accept a student, much less let them graduate, without extensive skills in realistic figure drawing.

That's not a prerequisite for illustration work, though. I feel comfortable saying that some of the most innovative artists out there have achieved their fame by overcompensating for some crucial hole in their training.

And more often than not, that hole is going to be anatomy. :shrug:

crossbones
01-06-2005, 07:43 PM
A message from Rey on supplemental reading materials"

Strength Training Anatomy by Frederic Delavier,it's pretty good but should just be a supplementary book. I still think everyone should get Human Anatomy For Artists, The Elements of Form by Eliot Goldfinger,that's the book I make my students get for making the ecorche'. Rey

"

tjnyc
01-06-2005, 07:57 PM
Crossbones,

Excellent stuff, great sketches. Looking forward to the DVD. As to what I would to see is exactly what Rey and you are planning. I want to see what is under the skin and how it works in motion.

Do you plan to follow Taron and use the texturedeform node in messiah to demo muscle tension?


Cheers,

crossbones
01-06-2005, 08:08 PM
I am gathering information on what people want to see, then rey & I can create it. He has an explanation on how muscles work and once you understand a) where they attach b) what they attach to, everything takes care of itself and you can create muscles. He has a very fun and easy to understand way of explaning things. Not to mention Rey has a great sense of humor.

Please give us feedback on what you would like to see.

tjnyc
01-06-2005, 09:08 PM
Will you guys just focus on human anatomy or will you guys also delve into animals\birds as well?


Cheers,

crossbones
01-06-2005, 10:20 PM
We will go all over the place, but his imaginatomy section on his site describes what the knowledge of Rey gives character designers.

http://www.reybustos.com/07i/i.html

Check it out

tjnyc
01-06-2005, 11:04 PM
That is awesome! I often find myself cross-referencing between animal/man for character design that isn't necessary one or the other but combination of several. I hope you guys can put some knowledge of how to properly go about creating imaginatomy character designs. There are plenty of anatomy information and recent advance modeling DVDs, but I got to assume that your DVD would definitely be one of the most valuable sources of information if you guys can pull it off. Here is hoping you guys do.


Cheers,

APLevitz
01-06-2005, 11:23 PM
Does this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/070060426X/fallenskybooksto/) have any value?

The approach struck me as interesting, but skin does bunch up in ways muscles don't, so maybe not the most useable reference...

tjnyc:
Not sure i agree that straight human anatomy's been covered enough, but what you propose would be sweet.

tjnyc
01-06-2005, 11:47 PM
Not sure i agree that straight human anatomy's been covered enough, but what you propose would be sweet.
As it applies to CG? or in general? I have tons of books and video on human anatomy that are not geared to artists and most of that I have to disseminate to something I can apply. The knowledge is out there, but the gigantic task is trying to gather and comprehend them and then apply to CG. So what these guys propose is quite an undertaking. I would be shocked if it doesn't come down to a series of DVDs. Which I wouldn't be opposed to as long as they don't shortcut any info. http://www.cgtalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


Cheers,

crossbones
01-06-2005, 11:56 PM
http://www.reybustos.com/04er/Week_14_Open_Arms.htm

Rey Just added another one of his Ecorche's to his site. This one was geared towards answering a question on CGTalk.

http://www.reybustos.com/images/Week_14_Open_Arms_Full.jpg

crossbones
01-07-2005, 12:00 AM
Rey gets in to skin to as well. You haven't looked at his sketches. He taught us in class this past term that wrinkles occur perpendicular to the muscle strands. I.e "brow muscles" the strands actually run vertically yet the wrinkes horizontally. This applies just about anywhere.

Also check out the blackboards there is alot of information on them.

tjnyc
01-07-2005, 12:10 AM
Those interactive turntables are great. Since it is flash would it be possible for you guys to create a close-ups of certain areas. Like let say I want to click on the chest region, or leg region, it brings me to a close-up of that region but still gives me an interactive turntable so I can view it from multiple angles.

Have you guys any plans to create your own forum, I sort feel this is getting OT from ZB. Maybe we could move this to the modeling forum.

Keep up the great work.http://www.cgtalk.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Cheers,

crossbones
01-07-2005, 12:19 AM
Can you have a moderator move. Reason it was brought up in the Zbrush form is alot of Zbrush people are asking how does one model X part of the body. I figured that having a 3D TurnTable they could study, look and then create.

I am working on something similar to what you described. Its just going to be tricky to implement in a way that's not confusing. The interactive DVD Rom has content to be planned on that level.

jmBoekestein
01-08-2005, 04:53 AM
I personnally get most of my anatomy from what I see myself. I recently downloaded dynamic figure drawin and figured that I knew a lot allready. But what I find most difficult to learn are for instance tucked away muscles. How do you rotate an upperarm bone? And why does the femur have muscle wear and tear where the ball ends? how do the muscles behave inside the belly pulling at the spinal column? And where the friggin heck does the tongue attach to? The last one being an utter fundamental for facial anim, I've never even heard a spoken word or even a written one, all I hear is that it's the strongest muscle in the body.

That's my short version, but of course I'll be spending the rest of my life studying humans and animals.
Thanks in advance! It's something really necessary!
PS:Yeah lot's of animals if you can do that!

crossbones
01-09-2005, 07:20 PM
I personnally get most of my anatomy from what I see myself. I recently downloaded dynamic figure drawin and figured that I knew a lot allready. But what I find most difficult to learn are for instance tucked away muscles. How do you rotate an upperarm bone? And why does the femur have muscle wear and tear where the ball ends? how do the muscles behave inside the belly pulling at the spinal column? And where the friggin heck does the tongue attach to? The last one being an utter fundamental for facial anim, I've never even heard a spoken word or even a written one, all I hear is that it's the strongest muscle in the body.

That's my short version, but of course I'll be spending the rest of my life studying humans and animals.
Thanks in advance! It's something really necessary!
PS:Yeah lot's of animals if you can do that!

I am very thankful for all the feedback and discussions from this post. Rey and I will do our best to assure great quality in anything we put forth. His book will be released first which will include a sampler of what will be on the interactive DVD.

How do you rotate an upperarm bone- Well I am not sure of the question, but I can point you two of Rey's examples.

http://www.reybustos.com/04er/Scapula_Rotation.htm
If you look at where the humorus (upper armbone) attaches to the scalpula. Its a ball and socket joint with the acromion process.The arms aren't actually attached.

http://www.reybustos.com/03ra/Bambi_Arm_mx.htm
This is actually a good eample of what happens wwhen the Arms Twist.

**** NOTE: If you look at the sculptures they are all done in sequence. Gradiating from skeleton to a full muscular system its all there. Also Rey has done so many of these, he has done so many poses with them as his students have as well.



"The approach struck me as interesting, but skin does bunch up in ways muscles don't, so maybe not the most useable reference..."

Rey's example, if you have a chair and you through a cloth over it, its going to take the shape of the chair. The same thing applies with skin as it relates to muscle and bone.

crossbones
01-09-2005, 07:27 PM
I would like to show you guys one of Rey's students who has website. This student was taught from the ground up by Rey and since have applied the information to his work.

http://www.theprocreator.com/

http://www.theprocreator.com/gallery3.htm

crossbones
01-23-2005, 04:53 AM
By request, I have updated Rey's site with some helpful Turntable animations of his anatomical sculptures. These ones specifically go after what happnes when the arms are raised at various degrees.

Update: Production goes well on the DVD. We hope to have the evaluation copies of the series ," Rey's Interactive3D Anatomy: A reference for Artists and Designers" in the hands of some well known Artists in the industry, that if all goes well will have good things to say about the product.



Click on the images and it will take you to the links.


Also keep the feedback coming. Rey wants to thank each and everyone of you. Personally i hope our product serves your needs and gives all of you the reference you to assist your creative processes.

http://www.reybustos.com/images/Forum_images/Upper_Torso_Arm_Up.jpg (http://www.reybustos.com/04er/DVD_Ecorches_/Arm_Raised_Upper_Torso.htm)



http://www.reybustos.com/images/Forum_images/Quantae_Body.jpg (http://www.reybustos.com/04er/DVD_Ecorches_/Quantae_Body_.htm)


http://www.reybustos.com/images/Forum_images/Joe_Body.jpg (http://www.reybustos.com/04er/DVD_Ecorches_/Joe_Body.htm)


http://www.reybustos.com/images/Forum_images/Debbie_Body.jpg (http://www.reybustos.com/04er/DVD_Ecorches_/Betty_Body.htm)




http://www.reybustos.com/images/Forum_images/Debbie_Upper_Torso.jpg (http://www.reybustos.com/04er/DVD_Ecorches_/Betty_Upper_Torso.htm)

jfrancis
03-03-2005, 10:10 PM
Here's my classwork ---

http://www.digitalartform.com/archives/2005/02/rey_bustos_ecor.html

I'll be done with Rey's current class in a few weeks.

http://www.digitalartform.com/archives/images/skeleton_WIP3.jpg

... at the moment, it's work-in-progress

crossbones
03-04-2005, 09:19 AM
Nice, It looks like you guys just started adding the muscles. You are definately placing the muscles correctly it looks like they just need some fine adjusting and you will be styling for the final phase.

If I can make the suggestions, I would have chosen to slightly bend the arm and not hyper extend. It would have been easier to add the muscles of the bicep. I might have cocked one arm back to make a difference in the scapula.

You have seen his models up close and personal, does the website do it Justice?

jfrancis
03-04-2005, 10:46 AM
The web site is great. I'd suggest putting more imagery (the ecorche, for example) on the first page, though, and not relying on the visitor to find it deeper inside the site.

crossbones
03-04-2005, 05:19 PM
I think Sarah's beautiful body is better imagery then an ecorche.

Stephen Casey
03-06-2005, 08:25 PM
Great work. Rey's site is terrific.
http://www.reybustos.com/index.html

I would suggest some mention on Rey's site of the DVD in progress.
Small sample flashes of each of the media styles used on the homepage would be best. Ecorche is a word alien to many budding artist that would make good use of your efforts.

Question: Are the skeletons in these exorcises each sculpted by each student, a group of students, or are they all recast from the same skeleton?

crossbones
03-06-2005, 09:30 PM
The skeleton is built everytime from scratch. He starts with an armature of wire and then adds sculpy. Each student is required to make it all from scratch.


To answer your question much of what you see on that site is the direction of content. Rotating Ecorches, Crossfading drawing between photographs and sequences of these ecorhces which convey motion. WE have other DVDs in the works dealing with more on a level of seeing these muscles deform in motion, Imaginatomy etc ALL LABELED!!!



http://www.reybustos.com/04er/Zoomify_teaser/sequence.jpg

crossbones
03-06-2005, 10:41 PM
If you look at the Ecorche with Rey, you can see it goes from built clay skeleton to adding each adition muscles etc.

ambient-whisper
03-09-2005, 12:16 AM
Can you have a moderator move. Reason it was brought up in the Zbrush form is alot of Zbrush people are asking how does one model X part of the body. I figured that having a 3D TurnTable they could study, look and then create.

I am working on something similar to what you described. Its just going to be tricky to implement in a way that's not confusing. The interactive DVD Rom has content to be planned on that level.

ask and you shall recieve

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