Question for pro editors on a PC

[Chris]

sounds like an idiot - theres no way he's editing in an MPG format - its time based compression. Thats a bit silly.

So hes probably using some form of AVI (depending on his system) If he has quicktime pro, he could just dump it off as that, or as an uncompressed AVI if he hasn't. Its pointless having it in a compressed AVI, compressing it again into MPEG2, Then converting it again into Quicktime - thats at least 3 generations of compression so its bound to introduce some artifacts.

Why cant he just burn off either a AVI movie from his timeline, or just give you the raw footage & an EDL?!? Crazyness!

Mind you I did just receive a low res JPEG of a logo from an advertising agency, who obviously created it in Freehand - & I'm expected to trace it back to vectors again in Freehand. People are stupid. I hate people. :annoyed:

[Mechaman]

Not a professional editor, but interned around the block enough.

1. Depends on the (price)level of the editor. Most of the time, "yes", using a lossless codec(of which I recommend HuffYUV (http://math.berkeley.edu/~benrg/huffyuv.html) ). The growing trend is towards DV, although as usual, it's still got some hiccups on the Win32 platform.

2. It depends on how well the DVD was encoded in the first place. If he did a proper MPEG-2 master, then there shouldn't be too great loss of quality(depending on whether or not you want studio-quality). It should be visible on the disc if he ham-handed it with a point-n-drool DVD program, or took the time to correctly encode it.
As far as trying to edit from the DVD, this is certainly possible. Even though it's more aimed at us "amateurs", check out ErMaC's guide (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/legacy/ErMaC/default.htm) at AMV.org (http://www.animemusicvideos.org) , which is all about retaining as much quality as possible from a DVD. You probably won't have to worry about CSS cracking, however. Doom9 (http://doom9.org/) is also a good place for technical info and guides.

Incidentally, take a handy DV deck and smack the guy around a few times, then explain the difference between "production" and "distribution" video types.

Good luck!

[phatgroovn]

Moron. It's kinda like rendering a movie, printing each frame on an inkjet printer, and then sending them to telecine to get put on film off of the prints.

AVI is also a pretty old n shitty codec. I edit on Macs mostly, but even with the occasional PC edit job I always use quicktime, or preferebly image sequences.

As far as ripping is concerned, yes you could probably do it, but it takes a ridiculous amount of processing time and disk space - he gave you the files in the worst possible way he could have! :shame:

[derelict]

Ok let me try to help here.

Yes, one can edit the contents of a DVD with a pc. Period.

first thing first, if the DVD contents are encripted than you virtually can't see the content due to the relocation of the FAT data. Can you view the contents? If not, don't worry there are lots of downloadable rippers out there that MPAA have not got their grubby hands on yet. ;)

Ok here is the techie part... use the ripper to rip those *.vob files from the DVD than run the converter to change it to a DV *.avi format. Wallah, edit away from there onwards.

footnote: always re-codec it to DV before editing because it is one format that is lossless even after manipulating it a hundred times. :cool: BTW, there is such thing as a mac media player... and from what i know final cut pro does take in *.avi for the mac.

[phatgroovn]

True, but the point is that he shouldn't have to. Mastering it to DVD video and then recapturing/ripping it is just a ridiculously inefficient workflow, doubly so considering the additional encoding steps that will result in quality loss.

[moovieboy]

Lot's of great info guys, thanks! :D

I figured this was much more him being a dope! :annoyed:

However, just to clarify. Are any of you saying it's not unusual to edit with avi files? If so, is that the preferred format for a PC editor?

-Danke!

-Tom

[beaker]

>>footnote: always re-codec it to DV before editing because it is one format that is lossless even after manipulating it a hundred times.

That is a horrible idea, it will totally screw up the movie. DV is not lossless, it is 5:1 compression. Also it is 4:1:1/NTSC instead of 4:2:2 so your loosing a whole bunch of information there, especially if it is going back to beta or back to dvd. Also your going from 720x486(if they encoded full ntsc rez) to 720x480 so your fields are going to get all screwed up and vertical scaling is going to add lots of very ugly artifacts.

>>first thing first, if the DVD contents are encripted than you virtually can't see the content due to the relocation of the FAT data. Can you view the contents? If not, don't worry there are lots of downloadable rippers out there that MPAA have not got their grubby hands on yet.

This doesn't matter anyways, the guy probably encoded it and burned it to dvd on his home machine, so it wont have any kind of encryption.

[beaker]

>>however, just to clarify. Are any of you saying it's not unusual to edit with avi files? If so, is that the preferred format for a PC editor?

Yes, most editors on windows use either avi or dv files. Usually with some special mjpeg avi codec for the video out board just like you get on the mac (mjpeg quicktime codec or uncompressed codec).

[Chris]

yep, beakers right, avi is the most common format - even DV is generally in avi wrapper (bear in mind that AVI, like quicktime is just a wrapper for various codecs - not a codec in itself) Final Cut pro will take avi files, as long as it has the required codec.

Most DV codecs these days can be re-encoded around 8 times without noticable quality loss. But there is definite loss - essentially you are getting only a quarter of the colour information in a 4:1:1 compressed format. Its always best to remain in some kind of losslessly compressed format until the final print to tape. On a PC, as someone has already mentioned, HuffYUV is an excellent lossless AVI codec, but isnt supported on a Mac afaik. I always go with Quicktime->animation set on 'best'

[beaker]

>>I always go with Quicktime->animation set on 'best'

Chris,
One codec you should check out is PNG compression in quicktime. I started using it about a year ago. It is about 1/4 the size of the animation codec, it is lossless and it is 4:4:4. Also if your doing any film work that requires 16 bit/channel images, it supports that too along with an alpha in the movie file.

Sorry to go OT here

[Chris]

that sounds cool - I hadn't tried that one, I'll give it a whirl - cheers for the tip! :beer:

[moovieboy]

Always great to learn new things around here!

You're all fantastic! Thanks again, guys! :D

-Tom

[derelict]

hi again,

Well i agree that i seldom post my materials more than 4 times. hehe. I personally use Matrox MAX for my encoding which give me a pretty near lossless DV format. I suppose there are lots of varient DV format out there at the moment.

Well, for the final transfer for most of my DV work i post it to Reelsmart (the plugin). It helps kill the DV look and end up looking filmy. Managed to pull a couple of fast one with two of the most powerful ad agency!!

[Chris]

Have you got a DVT Max? They use DV50 as well as DV25 - so they compress at 3.3:1 (4:2:2) as opposed toDV25's 5:1 (4:1:1) - which means your colour is effectivley half resolution rather than quarter resolution. Nice :)

Bear in mind you need to shoot with at least a DV50 camera to take advantage of the extra quality....

[derelict]

Hi Chris,

i use Canon XL1 models for my shoot... well it is good enough for me. But with an added weapon to it..mini35 digital adapter. Now it is kinda feel like a 35mm camera. Downside... bloody heavy!

FYI, my lil canon could capture full frame instad of half mode at 30 frames.

I don't think the new digibeta could churn out full frame recording though.

ps: when those guys from the agency ask what i'm using, i'll usually say it is a 35mm camera (in a way i'm not cheating cause the adapter is a 35mm) and they go "wow! that is one sexy pc of hardware there!"

And i'll go "yup"

[Chris]

nice one :thumbsup: what they dont know won't hurt them eh? :)

[beaker]

>> I personally use Matrox MAX for my encoding which give me a pretty near lossless DV format. I suppose there are lots of varient DV format out there at the moment.

Actually there are only like 3, DVCPRO(panasonic), DVCAM(sony) and minidv(everyone else). All are physically different media for different cameras. With a XL1 your just using minidv which is stuck at 5:1 compression at 4:1:1, so it's definatly not "near lossless". You can't change the compression comming out of the tape over firewire unless you change to a different standard of tape/camera.

>>FYI, my lil canon could capture full frame instad of half mode at 30 frames.

Full Frame mode is very cool on the xl1. It is an awsome camera and has been king for a while for indy films. Another camera that I can't wait to get my grubby little hands on is the new Panasonic AG-DVX100. It does 24p/30p and costs the same as the XL1. The nice thing is that it uses DVCPRO so you get 4:2:2 and a less compression for the same price(around $3500). Definatly a camera to look forward to in the future.
http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/cams_ccorders/f_ag-dvx100.html

[derelict]

Well whatever the compression that my lil xl1 churns out, it just looks mighty cool all the same.;) furthermore the mini35 adapter help alot in the quality department.

What figures is that i've done work on it that pays the bills. hehe.
As i said, even those crooks from the agencies luv the end results!!

Nice link there, plan to get my third unit and that link is an eye opener. Thanks beaker!:thumbsup:

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