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Ollarin
12-25-2004, 06:05 AM
Caligari just posted a short article on Truespace 7, with it's features and a small preview of it's interface. (Kinda looks like a Lightwave + Messiah hybrid)

<<LINK>> (http://www.caligari.com/News/news_dec2004/truetown_roman_b.html)

dotTom
12-25-2004, 07:34 AM
Kind of reads like software engineering "buzzword bingo".

rendermania
12-25-2004, 11:42 AM
Looks good to me. Looks like they have a new GUI (DirectX screenshot), Vray is a welcome addition, and the web based collaboration thing sounds intriguing. I've often wondered why CG apps don't repurpose network code written for multiplayer games to provide multi-user collaboration, stuff like RakNet from Rakkarsoft. I hope for Caligari's sake that all the new stuff translates into a more professional app than the old Truespace. Always room for new tools. :)

Boone
12-25-2004, 03:41 PM
I think the "Rosetta" API is for real. Sounds like Caligari have finally pulled their socks up and quit mucking about.

As for the rest of the "Fully this, fully that" - every 3D app company pulls this same shit, so I shall dismiss the boasts as I would NewTek, Alias, Discreet and Maxon sales pitches.

Judging by the screen-grab, it looks as if Caligari have finally given into a more stable and professional product. But then again, we shall have to wait and see if this is the case... :hmm:

Frank Lake
12-25-2004, 04:23 PM
As they use to say... "The proof is in the pudding!".

It's intially underwhelming in the worst of ways with it's techno-babble talk and extreme lack of screengrabs. Hell the presention was in digital wasn't?!?

400 tools..... so what! Version 6 has over 418, with 400 of them being buggy, problematic or just flat out broken. 350 of which I fully expect to be modernized or actually fixed.

The only postive so far is that of a potentially clean highly organized(for many people standardized(or to myself and other stupified)) interface, that just may, stay the hell outta my work area and for once do what I want!

Maybe Caligari will get smarter and join with other small company's like oh say the makers of Rhino......

Boone
12-25-2004, 04:45 PM
Re: Frank Lake.

Another suspicion I have about TS7 is that Caligari have taken a look at how other 3D apps are programmed such as Maya and have finally followed suit. I reckon it will be a stable app this time... :hmm:

dotTom
12-25-2004, 04:58 PM
It never ceases to amaze me just how many Me Too applications there are in the 3D space. I mean with the exception to ZBrush and maybe Modo they all try to play catch up with the big three. You don't see the same thing in the office apps space where you have MS Office, Star Office and one or two other possible contenders.

I can't for the life of me see anything new or original with TS7. I do wonder what % of users they're going to be able to attact from other 3D apps. I can see how TS7 would be attractive to folks who use TS6.x - but to say a Lightwave user? I don't get it. Someone sell TS7 to me. Why should I care? I'm not trying to start a package war, I'm just interested...

Boone
12-25-2004, 05:10 PM
Re: DotTom.

That is indeed a fair question.

The answer however, can only be answered when Caligari release TS7. Personally, I expect TS7 to be at a VERY low price to stay in the market place. The problem is "balance"...

TS7 will be stuck in between XSI:Foundation and Blender...one is $495 and the other is free! Caligari will be cutting their own throats if they keep the $595 price tag... :hmm:

Frank Lake
12-25-2004, 05:29 PM
Another suspicion I have about TS7 is that Caligari have taken a look at how other 3D apps are programmed such as Maya and have finally followed suit. I reckon it will be a stable app this time... :hmm:
Re: Boone

While that maybe true it's customer base was not happy about the recent shift in it's interface, though a small minority were, so this well might be they're way of correcting that step. Personally I don't give more then a fig about the interface, as long as it's easly learnable, because I've grown into using short-cut keystrokes.


Re: dotTom

Nobody has the ability to sell you TS after you've used LW. The performance gap between the two is at least an order of magnitude higher then the different between TS and Anim8tor. The power(tool) difference is simply too great. A fine example of this is that while TS has become aimed at gaming purposes it doesn't have a simple "save as .obj" command and not even a simple planarizing tool.

Only way I could sell you TS is if the big 5 weren't available for home use.

rendermania
12-25-2004, 06:18 PM
It never ceases to amaze me just how many Me Too applications there are in the 3D space. I mean with the exception to ZBrush and maybe Modo they all try to play catch up with the big three.
I wouldn't dismiss what you call 'me-too' apps so quickly. Aside from the fact that there is a sizeable market for them - there are tens of thousands of 3D enthusiasts/hobbyists out there and not all of them have the patience to learn XSI or the hardware to render with MR - they can evolve into much bigger things quite quickly. People used to laugh at Cinema 4D back in the days of R5 or R6 as an entry level or midrange 3D app with poor CA capability. Buy the January 2005 issue of Computer Arts magazine when it hits newsstands. Cinema R9 came out the winner of a 3D heavyweights group test that also had Maya 6, XSI 4.2, LW 8 and Max 7 competing in it.

Point is, that's how the software market works. Apps that have a virtual monopoly at the very top end can tumble with time. Apps that are entry-level or mid-range to begin with can move up the ranks. Besides, CG is used so widely these days that there's no way 3 top apps or whatever can cover the whole market. You'll always have at least 7 or 8 widely known CG animation packages competing for the 3D crown at different price/feature levels. Its no different with editing or compositing. Look at how many different pro-level softwares are competing for those markets.

dotTom
12-25-2004, 06:37 PM
I wouldn't dismiss what you call 'me-too' apps so quickly. Aside from the fact that there is a sizeable market for them - there are tens of thousands of 3D enthusiasts/hobbyists out there and not all of them have the patience to learn XSI or the hardware to render with MR - they can evolve into much bigger things quite quickly. People used to laugh at Cinema 4D back in the days of R5 or R6 as an entry level or midrange 3D app with poor CA capability. Buy the January 2005 issue of Computer Arts magazine when it hits newsstands. Cinema R9 came out the winner of a 3D heavyweights group test that also had Maya 6, XSI 4.2, LW 8 and Max 7 competing in it.

Point is, that's how the software market works. Apps that have a virtual monopoly at the very top end can tumble with time. Apps that are entry-level or mid-range to begin with can move up the ranks. Besides, CG is used so widely these days that there's no way 3 top apps or whatever can cover the whole market. You'll always have at least 7 or 8 widely known CG animation packages competing for the 3D crown at different price/feature levels. Its no different with editing or compositing. Look at how many different pro-level softwares are competing for those markets.Yeah, I saw that review. They said C4Ds only major downer continues to be its rendering and the comparative lack of 3rd party renderer support. I'm not completely convinced that MR is any more of a cycle hog than any other comparable renderer. I've got Cinema 4D with the AR module, and it will peg my dual proc box just as much as Maya will. As for TS7, the day it's used for a "money shot" sequence in a major summer blockbuster I will eat my hat and post the photos here :-)

Here's a question then, how come we don't see artwork created with TSx posted here or appearing in the pages of Ballistic publications? Is it because they don't have their own specific forum or something?

I take your point about no one app being suited for the whole range of the CG market, so what range is TS suited to? Are we saying that it's like "Lightwave with stabilizers?"

Frank Lake
12-25-2004, 07:14 PM
Re dotTom,

Why?

Lack of Talent depth. The TS community has VERY VERY few people(less then a single hand count with myself not being among them) who can even remotely compete with average people who know how to operate a better package. But those people either quickly hit the programs limit and move on to another package OR still have TS but know how to operate other packages and do most of their work in them. Since TS is toted as a 'beginners' package few people of 'talent' will actually stay with it. It also doesn't help that TS isn't as stolen as MAX, MAYA, or LW either.

Besides CGTalk is known for being tilted more towards organic modelling and to gather a decent response takes a pretty damned high quality of work. Which is why, even though I do my modeling basically in organics, I'll never post my materials 'here'.

Boone
12-25-2004, 08:16 PM
Re: Frank Lake.

I was refering to TS7 - not TS 5&6. :curious:

And I wasn't refering to the interface, but the way its programmed. If it had a more flexible approach like that of the Maya Node-system, it could be an easy task to add new features and therefore give it more functionality! :wip:

Frank Lake
12-25-2004, 09:27 PM
Re: Frank Lake.

I was refering to TS7 - not TS 5&6. :curious:

And I wasn't refering to the interface, but the way its programmed. If it had a more flexible approach like that of the Maya Node-system, it could be an easy task to add new features and therefore give it more functionality! :wip:
Ah! my mistake then. I thought you were referring to the more standardized interface.

I seriously doubt that they could've put together a stable node based system within 18 months. Only thing that I 'known' is node based is the new shader system that brings it up to relative date. However, either way, the TS community simply doesn't have the base to see much in the way of improving functionality. Maybe if it's successful sometime in 2006-2007 we'll see some people with excellent programming skills make strides.

Ollarin
12-26-2004, 12:57 AM
Caligari said they'd release some videos of the conference soon. Can't wait for that to happen, they'll give a quick demo of Truespace 7 in it, i think. :D

I wonder if any beta testers for TS 7 are around here. Maybe they want to share some information? :p

*Bribes beta testers* :deal:

Zarf
12-26-2004, 02:33 AM
Ah! my mistake then. I thought you were referring to the more standardized interface.

I seriously doubt that they could've put together a stable node based system within 18

I don't. The actual algorithms involved for sorting and evaluating nodes within a directed graph are pretty standard fare. If you get everything in the design stage correct the rest is mostly refactoring the codebase that you already have into discrete node classes and creating the user interface for editing their contents. Although it may not have been trivial, it is hardly a superhuman feat for a small team of competent and dedicated developers working over an 18 month period. It would however be pretty boring and tedious work though.


months. Only thing that I 'known' is node based is the new shader system that brings it up to relative date. However, either way, the TS community simply doesn't have the base to see much in the way of improving functionality. Maybe if it's successful sometime in 2006-2007 we'll see some people with excellent programming skills make strides.

Hopefully it will be cheap and good enough that it will attract new developers to the community. If the API is clean and logical it might also inspire people in the TS community to take up programming, Although I'm not holding my breath, I really hope Caligari hits a home run with this one. A greater range of choices in applications is always good :thumbsup:

Cheers,
Zarf

AdamT
12-26-2004, 04:20 PM
It was a good choice for them to scrap the old core as it seems they were incapable of sorting out the generational bugs in the old tS. Let's see if they can make a stable program starting from a clean(er) slate.

jeffthomann
12-27-2004, 06:22 PM
I see that they are keeping with the traditional icons that make it pretty difficult for us color blind folks to use the program... I wouldn't expect too much of a change from 6... and even if they did redo the core program, I truely doubt that they worked out all the bugs...

Vizu
11-17-2005, 09:30 PM
News about TS7 (http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/ts7/Brochure/intro.asp?Cate=BIntro)

BillB
11-18-2005, 12:14 AM
CG is used so widely these days that there's no way 3 top apps or whatever can cover the whole market. You'll always have at least 7 or 8 widely known CG animation packages competing for the 3D crown at different price/feature levels. Its no different with editing or compositing. Look at how many different pro-level softwares are competing for those markets. Gotta disagree. For such a small market, 4 or 5 tops. Editing? Avid, Final Cut, Premiere... and that's it really. Ditto compositing - AFX, Shake, Fusion (ignoring the highly specialised top end). How can something like TS (which I didn't even know was still alive) hope to compete in the new regime where XSI is $500?? Which would you buy? In 3 years we'll have XSI, MaxiMaya, C4D and LW - and I don't envy the latter two. Apps like zbrush, messiah and Modo leverage those powerhouses. Beyond that, it's gotta be pretty tough to survive, let along innovate.

In any market you have a balance - eveyone wants everthing to be compatible, and do everything in one app, but you need innovation which means competition. The balance is about 2-4 apps vis-a-vis the Office market -which has leaned way too far towards standards at the cost of innovation.

DanSilverman
11-18-2005, 07:19 AM
I have had so many bad experiences with Caligari in the past that they could create the best 3D app on the market and sell it for $1 and I might not consider getting it. They, more so than most companies, have so much marketing hype and their hype is often times outright lies. I had purchased their GameSpace app (basically a cut-rate version of TS6 with a few "game specific" things thrown in) and was very disappointed. Their website contained so many promises. For example, they stated you could use ALL their tools and ANY type of geomtry to build level geometry and GameSpace would flawlessly create the BSP specific geoemtry for you. If you have ever worked with BSP geometry then you know the problems with converting "standard" geometry to BSP. Well, as it turned out, the hype was a blattent lie. First of all GameSpace did not convert anything. It was a 3rd party plugin by a guy that did not even understand specific aspects of real-time 3D game creation, the plugin was full of bugs and it did not come close to exporting BSP-correct geometry EVEN when creating BSP-correct geometry to begin with in GameSpace (let alone when the geometry was NOT BSP-correct). This is only one of many examples of hype from Caligari that was either an outright lie or was on the very edge of it.

Several of us confronted Caligari on the way the product was presented on their web page and they changed the wording concerning GameSpace ... but not enough ... they just took the edge off.

I don't trust Caligari ... at all.

Frank Lake
11-18-2005, 12:21 PM
LOL!

Well that was an embrassing update page. Virtually nothing new with no real mention of tooling changes. Frankly just an image showcase of little substance and if I have to 'link' nodes together for modelling...... HULK SMASH!

But is it me or has the interface because the bastard child of a MAX, Lightwave, Blender three-way? :argh:

Nichod
11-18-2005, 07:34 PM
Not a TS fan, but the attitudes of some of you disgusts me. The product isn't even on the market and you are smashing it. I see a few things I'm quite impressed with, dependin on how they function. Its at least worth a demo. Things that seem interesting:

Panel Editor, Material Editor: Link Editor allows you to easily create your own UI panels as well as advanced HLSL (DX9) materials simply by drag, drop & link (DD&L).

-Sounds like Modo in how you can build the user interface into what you'd like it to be. The DX9 materials (if its full support) is pretty impressive as well.

Existing animation tools are now integrated with the new photorealistic real time view. You can also create new procedural and interactive animations and behaviors for games or training simulations simply by linking objects in new Link Editor. Procedural Modeling is a radical new way to create complex, and particularly interactive, objects. You can use either script (like Javascript or VB) or simply link existing objects in the Link Editor to create more complex objects.

-Sounds like a toned down version of Houdini, but worth a look and sounds interesting. Would be nice to see a lower priced solution similar to Houdini on the market.

All in all it seems like a lot of work and thought was put into this release, the realtime rendering push seems like a pretty powerful implementation. Anyway its worth a look. Maybe will try the demo.

DanSilverman
11-18-2005, 08:03 PM
-Sounds like Modo in how you can build the user interface into what you'd like it to be. The DX9 materials (if its full support) is pretty impressive as well.

-Sounds like a toned down version of Houdini, but worth a look and sounds interesting. Would be nice to see a lower priced solution similar to Houdini on the market.

Sounds like ... sounds like ...

That was the point of my "I don't trust Caligari" post. Caligari says all sorts of things but the reality of their application is a different story. Seriously.

Its at least worth a demo.

Have you ever downloaded a demo from Caligari? If you have then you realize that you get a "zillion" SPAM emails from these guys. Between the hype and the SPAM it makes Caligari seem like a cheap two bit company instead of a corporation producing cutting edge 3D.

Frank Lake
11-18-2005, 09:14 PM
Not a TS fan, but the attitudes of some of you disgusts me.
I've used TS since '98(versions 4.3-6.6) and 2 years ago had enough of it's repeating failure to address simple flaws. Did you know that in order to get some of the tools to work correctly you must work in large, and generally hard to work in, scale? When you spend more time looking for work arounds then you do scene building, rendering, or animation you know that the package has problems and when the company won't take aggressive steps to correct said problems........

So I've seen the same olde bs from Caligari several times. So you will understand my attitude towards the company and product.


Existing animation tools are now integrated with the new photorealistic real time view.

Given how the existing animation tools are over 50% broken NOT something to look forward too!

Merrow
11-18-2005, 11:19 PM
Every time I look over at my bookcase and see the manual for TS 5 I feel a twinge of regret. The book is left there only to serve as a reminder. "Be carefull with your money!"

ctguitars
11-19-2005, 01:23 AM
Hey Boone,


The answer however, can only be answered when Caligari release TS7. Personally, I expect TS7 to be at a VERY low price to stay in the market place. The problem is "balance"...

TS7 will be stuck in between XSI:Foundation and Blender...one is $495 and the other is free! Caligari will be cutting their own throats if they keep the $595 price tag...


From new Caligari email today: l "That is why, despite all the improvements to the software, the suggested retail price for trueSpace7 will remain unchanged at $595. The regular upgrade price from trueSpace6 will be only $399 – but if you purchase during the Pre-Release special, you will pay only $299 for the downloadable version!"

Cheers
CT

RorrKonn
11-19-2005, 02:21 AM
Max,Maya,TS,C4D will not subdivide a Tri.
http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_T_Mix_Sub-D_Tri-Quad.htm (http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_T_Mix_Sub-D_Tri-Quad.htm)
XSI will but the UI's a is a pain.
LW's divided layout,modeler is a pain.

All 3D apps our ate up with stupid stuff.
that make 3D 100 x's harder then it should be.
some how they just don't put common since in to 3D app's.

and we have alot of main 3D app's Max,Maya etc etc
alot of landscape app's Vue,WB etc etc
but only one Poser app ?

Will the next version of every app Modo,XSI etc etc be ate up with stupidity ?
you can bet on it.
why ?
cause we buy the messed up app's.
n as long as we continue to buy upgraded versions ate up with flaws it will never change.

C4Ders gave Maxon un ending grief about nGons but don't say nothing about subdivided Tri's.

LW'ers say they like there app turn in to separated app's.

I think the 3D universe is more frailed then our universe.
I have yet to find any common since in any 3D app.
but I will continue to look.

I know how easy TS is to pick on n to point out there flaws.
but all app's have flaws, major flaws.

of all the app's Poser is buy far the worst.crashes looks like crap it's hard to find anything nice to say about Poser.
but hay there fast,easy to use and low cost.even there meshes our low cost,u shop at turbo squad.

if I was betting who would finally win the 3D Wars I would beat on the company that makes a descent Poser app.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Nichod
11-19-2005, 04:03 AM
All 3D apps our ate up with stupid stuff.
that make 3D 100 x's harder then it should be.
some how they just don't put common since in to 3D app's.



What I've been noticing is trend towards specialized applications (Silo, Hexagon, Motionbuilder, etc.) I think reason for this is the lack of straightforward clean intuitive designs in the "all-in-one" 3D packages of the day. The only application that seems to be doing well in that area is Modo, but it remains to be seen if this will remain to be true. That said each program has its niche, including TS. Its been around for how long now? It has its following and user group. Really I'd love for this release of TS 7 to be all its being made out to be, a powerful procedural based animation, modeling and shading system.

Carpenter
11-19-2005, 04:25 AM
My 2 cents...

The part of this that is really bugging me is TS character animation has been broken for a while now. GS (GameSpace) character animation is almost nonexistant. If you read the Special Promotions email you will notice that they have not included character animation into the initial release of TS7... but will gladly charge you at a later date for that feature :( When TS7.1 comes out. These are the types of things that Dan Silverman mentioned above. When GS came out, we were promised that they would fix character animation, that was in Nov. 2003 (GS came out at the end of September of that year... still no fix.

Oh well, I am definately going to upgrade my XSI Foundation licience (I might even just get an Essentials Licience)... TS... I doubt it... not till I see some serious changes to the product and the way the company treats their customers :(

Rich

foleypro
11-19-2005, 05:09 AM
Bout time...4 years in the process...

RorrKonn
11-19-2005, 05:38 AM
My 2 cents...

The part of this that is really bugging me is TS character animation has been broken for a while now. GS (GameSpace) character animation is almost nonexistant. If you read the Special Promotions email you will notice that they have not included character animation into the initial release of TS7... but will gladly charge you at a later date for that feature :( When TS7.1 comes out. These are the types of things that Dan Silverman mentioned above. When GS came out, we were promised that they would fix character animation, that was in Nov. 2003 (GS came out at the end of September of that year... still no fix.

Oh well, I am definately going to upgrade my XSI Foundation licience (I might even just get an Essentials Licience)... TS... I doubt it... not till I see some serious changes to the product and the way the company treats their customers :(

Rich

way way back in the stone age of 3D back in the TS3 days technically TS3 had charter animation
u broke the mesh in to individual peaces like a robot or machine.
n animated each peace individually.
no one uses this method any more but technically u could, don't need rigs for this method.
C4D still has this built in also.

Apps have demos so u know what your getting be for u get it.
If my current app does not have the tools I need I go get the app that does.
I do not wait on a app to get anything.

I would like to have XSI Advanced.
I need hair,cloth,dynamic etc etc LW has it.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Carpenter
11-19-2005, 11:16 AM
way way back in the stone age of 3D back in the TS3 days technically TS3 had charter animation
u broke the mesh in to individual peaces like a robot or machine.
n animated each peace individually.
no one uses this method any more but technically u could, don't need rigs for this method.
C4D still has this built in also.



You could also animate each vertex individually... but what is the point of that? Making me pay an additional upgrade price to the upgrade price because I want to use a core feature of the program... seems odd to me :(

I guess anyone wanting this program should look at the demo, and test everything you can to be sure it has the features you find important... character animation is important to me... I'll wait on this one...

Rich

Frank Lake
11-19-2005, 03:34 PM
Well I got their "Buy our product!" email....

....thought I opt'ed out of that bit.

Anyways, not to impressive and definatly scary that they state that your are going to be like a Beta Tester for them after you pay for the product! :surprised Nice warning! Now I most certainly not be buying this product.

Q: Why should I care about new architecture? Isn't it all just about real-time views?

A: The new architecture is about much more than just real-time rendering. For example, it allows command-based construction history with full undo capability, support for multi-core CPUs, new tools like soft selection, a new method of polygon reduction combined with normal mapping, and even the 3D recording of your actions in the modeling space which can be synchronized with regular video.

The new architecture also gives third-party developers essentially the same access to our new kernel as our own developers have, which should result in powerful new plug-ins (old plug-ins will continue to work because of real time bridge, so you gain the best of both worlds).

At first, you may not be as interested in the real-time rendering and collaborative modeling aspects, but what we saw with our Beta testers was that everyone loved the shared space once they experienced live interaction with our customer support or each other. The Caligari support team (or trueSpace Forum members) can literally show you how to solve some issue rather than just describe it.

Combined with the truePlay downloadable, which will be available at no charge, the new architecture will allow you to show your artwork online as a 3D photorealistic environment that your friends or customers and clients can move around and interact with, without them needing to own any version of trueSpace at all. For example, a jeweler could make changes to a custom design of a ring with the customer watching, commenting and making requests, and even "pointing" to particular places or features on the ring. What is remarkable is that while both would be together in the shared space and seeing the same same object change in real-time, the jeweler would in fact be in their store in one city, while the customer was sitting comfortably at home in another city. The same capability opens up new worlds for architects, game content designers, animators, and more!



Q: I am concerned about stability and performance, is trueSpace7 more stable than trueSpace6?

A: trueSpace7 includes essentially all of the existing trueSpace6 functionality within the new architecture. While we did improve some issues in the trueSpace6 code, including a clean-up of the user interface, the old code did not change significantly. This is because over time all the old tools will be replaced with new (and improved) ones that fully exploit the power of the new architecture.

As always, our Beta testing team have pushed us hard – they are users like yourself, so they demand the same things of the software and of our developers as you would! We have striven to ensure stability in all aspects of the software.

As for performance, using the new real-time views, you can easily edit scenes or objects that have over 1 million polygons while maintaining a real-time response from modeling tools. Point editing in the new DX9 view with larger objects is at least 10x faster compared to trueSpace6 older Model view.



Q: Has character animation been improved? How about fur and hair?

A: The short answer is no. It was not possible for us to create a commercial quality character animation tools without having a stable new platform to build it on.

The good news is that we now have that stable platform, and we are planning to release next generation of character animation tools as part of a trueSpace7.1 upgrade, which will be available at a low cost to trueSpace7 users. As for hair and fur shaders, they could easily be written using the trueSpace7 advanced shader editing tools for example.

At present, the existing trueSpace6 animation tools still work, and they can be used along with the new real-time rendering, so you can for example pre-visualize your animation with real-time shadows and materials without having to run a time-consuming render.



Q: The power in the new trueSpace sounds awesome – but does all this talk of scripts and link editors mean I have to be a programmer to really benefit?

A: No. Thanks to the simplicity of the Link Editor, adding functionality or interactivity to an object can be very easy – no more difficult a task than creating a hierarchy of objects or moving keyframes around is in earlier versions of trueSpace.

The beauty of the trueSpace7 interface is that it is role based - you choose the appropriate user interface based on your purpose and talent, and you can go as deep as you like into what trueSpace7 has to offer. A few mouse clicks can draw a connection between objects, and offers enormous possibilities just at this level. You certainly do not need any programmer skills, just an open and creative mind, to come up with your own unique behaviors, tools and interactivity using this approach.

Alternatively, you can choose to use accessible scripting languages like VB or Java Script which remain relatively simple, yet can still access almost all of the core functionality of trueSpace7. And sure, you can still develop plug-ins using C++ and similar compiled languages if you want to – although you’ll find much of what you need is available without ever having to go that deep!

The UI reflects this role-based approach, and lets you adapt how trueSpace looks and works to fit your needs. Without any programming knowledge, you can create your own interface which may include 3D widgets, icons, panels, script editors, link editors and more– and you can store your interfaces within libraries to recall a preferred set up with a single click. This means you can turn truespace7 into a near-identical trueSpace6 look-alike, use any of dozens preset role based layouts, or make it something unlike any previous version of trueSpace, the choice is yours!



Q: What hardware will I need to run trueSpace7?

A: Any Pentium4 (or equivalent) with 1GB of RAM will work very well for the majority of projects. For large projects, we would recommend 2 GB of RAM.

For the new real-time views, a DX9 compatible card with 128MB or 256MB of VRAM is highly recommended. Full Pixel Shader 2 compatibility will give you the best benefits and range of effects offered by the new DX9 rendering engine, but the real-time views are scaleable in functionality so that you can enable or disable features to balance performance versus quality to suit your own tastes and needs, in much the same way as you would in many games.

For collaboration and shared space features, a 300+ Kbps (broadband) internet connection is recommended.

DanSilverman
11-19-2005, 03:47 PM
The good news is that we now have that stable platform, and we are planning to release next generation of character animation tools as part of a trueSpace7.1 upgrade, which will be available at a low cost to trueSpace7 users.

Gotta love that part. They want you to pay a decent sum (hundreds of dollars) to get TS7, admit that character animation has not been fixed at all and then have the nerve to tell you that you will have to pay for it when it comes out in v7.1!

It sounds like you get a very buggy v6 repackaged in order for Caligari to get more of your money and then they plan on getting even more of your money a bit later down the road with an incremental update.

Sheesh.

powerwave3d
11-19-2005, 04:12 PM
They want you to pay for a .1 upgrade? They sound like a bunch of goons operating out of a garage somewhere...

DanSilverman
11-19-2005, 06:16 PM
They want you to pay for a .1 upgrade?

It's worse. They actually want you to pay for a beta:

Q: I am concerned about stability and performance, is trueSpace7 more stable than trueSpace6?

A: trueSpace7 includes essentially all of the existing trueSpace6 functionality within the new architecture. While we did improve some issues in the trueSpace6 code, including a clean-up of the user interface, the old code did not change significantly. This is because over time all the old tools will be replaced with new (and improved) ones that fully exploit the power of the new architecture.

So essentially you get a re-skinned v6 (called v7) with some new functions built in but not all. This sounds more like a beta build to me than a final product.

And then, after paying for this "beta" version, they will want you to pay, yet again, to upgrade (i.e. to get what should have been in there all along).

aaron111
11-19-2005, 06:30 PM
I have to admit TrueSpace 1 and 2 were the first 3D apps I ever experimented with - before going on to learn about 3D Studio R4 (DOS version), Max, and finally Maya. It was a lot of fun back in the day, but I'm not sure how Caligari continues to survive with their current marketing strategy. They don't seem to know what they want to be. Are they a tool for hobbyists and graphic designers/web artists? That would be more likely, but they seem to keep heaping on features that pretend to be targeted at competing with the big guns. Not sure what they hope to achieve by adding features like a pseudo node based interface, HDRI, GI etc. I think there best bet would be to keep it simple and intuitive and make sure what they already have actually works.

RorrKonn
11-19-2005, 07:03 PM
alot of newbie's start with TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara.
newbie's see the $7000 of Maya,XSI n go I'll get the $500 TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara.
but once they get what 3D is, you can bet there gone to one of the fab 5 app's.

but the fab 5 apps aggravate me more then the newbie apps.
goons in a garage or corporate suits

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Frank Lake
11-19-2005, 09:11 PM
alot of newbie's start with TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara.
newbie's see the $7000 of Maya,XSI n go I'll get the $500 TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara.
but once they get what 3D is, you can bet there gone to one of the fab 5 app's.

but the fab 5 apps aggravate me more then the newbie apps.
goons in a garage or corporate suits

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.
Actually alot of 'newbies' start with a package that, in their eyes, produced the best looking stuff. By hook or by crook, not to belabor the point.

The nasty little fact that TS 7 goes for 595(competing DIRECTLY with Foundation here! maybe that's why they are tossing in 3 render engines), 299 for a regular upgrade price(ouch), and 199 for a pre-release price. Throw in the fact that V-Ray is an optional purchase for expaned rendering abilities and it makes you wonder why people simply skip to Lightwave to have access to a 'pro' package.


ctguitars, thanks for posting that link over at the caligari boards!

3DKiwi
11-19-2005, 10:20 PM
Re 7.1 character animtion upgrade. My guess would be that Caligari will have Motion Studio built into it. Hence the .1 upgrade cost.

Ironic that in 3DWorld issue 61 / Feb 2005 Caligari first announced tS7 and started taking pre orders. Copy of ad below. Interesting that it says 2004. Looks like they originally intended tS7 to be out 2004 probably at the same time as tS4 was given away for free on the cover CD.

The link to buy tS7 at $495 still appears to work btw.

3DKiwi

1image
11-20-2005, 02:50 AM
alot of newbie's start with TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara.
newbie's see the $7000 of Maya,XSI n go I'll get the $500 TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara.
but once they get what 3D is, you can bet there gone to one of the fab 5 app's.

but the fab 5 apps aggravate me more then the newbie apps.
goons in a garage or corporate suits

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Your absoloutly right, i started with TS because of the price (5.2 $89, 6.6 upgrade $99) and thought i could create some serious looking stuff but after reading through this thread i see it's not all my fault. I tried working through all the tut's except the ones you pay for, and was able to create some stuff but nothing worth posting. All the time i thought i'll just stick with it, but i couldn't help notice that the (fab 5) have constant tut's and i can go just about anywhere and pick up a book with relative and up to date info, not to mention i can get Free online tut's with people like Ted Boardman at CG Architect and many more. Being a student i can get a fully functional max 7 for $275 2yr lic, and an army full of tut's which is bound to help speed my learning curve. Expecially when most of the tools work, oh and also the tut's.
However, i can say that the calgari team have always been friendly.

(Newbie)

RorrKonn
11-20-2005, 03:58 AM
I don't get why anyone would use Foundation when they could get LW.
I would like to have Advanced.but haven't much use for extra lite,lite version of any app.

$7000 is a bit much for hobbyist to give for a app thou.

and during all the 3D price Wars Max has never lowered there.
somebody needs to tell them there's a price war going on n to lower there price, ;)

I think all the apps our over priced
Why is hair n cloth an additional $4000 for Maya,XSI ?
LW has cloth n hair Lite built in for $800

and Poser has hair n cloth built in for only $250 ?
Even if TS does MS still needs hair n cloth.in other words ya need Poser.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Nichod
11-20-2005, 05:28 AM
alot of newbie's start with TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara.

I'm surprised at how people look at those these software packages as "newbie" software. I know quite a few professionals that would disagree with your analysis.

1image
11-20-2005, 05:48 AM
Mabie your right Nichod you need to be a professional to get it to work, or at least alot of money to pay for all the tut's.

3DKiwi
11-20-2005, 06:07 AM
And if you want to know more, check out the tS7 brochure:

http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/ts7/Brochure/intro.asp?Cate=BIntro

I wonder if they've fixed the undo?

RorrKonn
11-20-2005, 06:13 AM
1image
3D takes a commitment = to a marriage but the rewards our just as = so stick with it your create those master peaces.

Nichod
I never said TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara was newbie's only apps and Pro's never use the apps.
Hell I made enough with TS to buy LW,C4D.
now if I could make enough with LW,C4D to get Advanced or Unlimited ;)

I said
"alot of newbie's start with TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara.
newbie's see the $7000 of Maya,XSI n go I'll get the $500 TS ,AM, RealSoft, Carrara.
but once they get what 3D is, you can bet there gone to one of the fab 5 app's.

but the fab 5 apps aggravate me more then the newbie apps.
goons in a garage or corporate suits"

OK I should have said
you can bet "most our" gone to one of the fab 5 app's
3D's like politics and religion.
we all have our opinions and ya know well never all agree 100%.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Nichod
11-20-2005, 06:22 AM
I wonder if they've fixed the undo? Looks like it has: command history

Seems TS7 will have a undo history.

1image
11-20-2005, 07:00 AM
Rorrkonn,

1image
3D takes a commitment = to a marriage but the rewards our just as = so stick with it your create those master peaces.

Thanks for encouragemnt,
I am commited but i don't like hitting my head against a brick wall, expecially when that editor came to the TS forum and asked why there had been no books written since 2000, i was looking for one at the time, the idea was virtually regected,
i thought that was plain stupidity.
I'll go back to my origional opinion an app that sells is one that provides indepth customer support and doesn't rely on just it's forum members to do all the dirty work.

oops! i elaberated a bit there!!

RorrKonn
11-20-2005, 07:35 AM
Educational materials our getting alot better.
We've been campaigning for them for years now
back in the day there was slim to none.TS'ers Artist and the company employees showed me how me to 3D in 98.and I used other app's tutorials alot.
still one of my fav's it was done in Max.
http://67.15.36.49/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp (http://67.15.36.49/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp)
TS now has proteam.thats why there will be no more books.
LW has alot of tutorials posted now.
when I got LW 7 the manual suxs but there's alot of helpful LW'ers.n there's always the inside LW books.
C4D comes with CD's but buy the time I got C4D I had 3D down so it was easy to pick up.
3D Buzz http://www.3dbuzz.com (http://www.3dbuzz.com/) has Max tutorials.



there schools for the fab5 app,but they cost alot.
CD's our affordable.

the big thing with the fab5 apps they use hotkeys.
but once ya can run one of the app's it's easy to pick any of the others up.
even follow tutorials for other app's.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

1image
11-20-2005, 08:00 AM
Thanks for the link, i spose it takes anyone a fair while to learn, i'm just sayin there's alot more constructive tut's out there for other apps than TS i've been through moonman, comykwizard, madmouse and their all good guys and do there best to help, actually everyone in the forum are friendly and helpfull, but i think
A: paying $US 900 = $A 1500 -1600 = noway man!!
B: a lot of the other tut's are outdated and irrelevant to 6.6 tools.

When your just a newbie you don't want to start playing houdini with your 3D app you just want the facts clearly spelt out for you, i know not all people are like this, but i am.
Good diagrams + concise commentry = less stress and more productivity.

Thanks for talking with me on this, it's helped to air some frusteration so i can move on

RorrKonn
11-21-2005, 04:47 AM
we were all new at one time and know the frustration of learning 3D.
and no proteam is not cheep.
but Max is not cheep either and you go buying plugs
TS plugs $20,$50 some Max plugs go for more then TS.
takes high money to do high end apps.
I've never messed with Max cause there so plug dependent and the price of there plugs is so high.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

1image
11-21-2005, 05:14 AM
I havn't looked into it that far, my main focus is the tut support which is good quality and free. I suppose to some extent the plugins help pay for services, By the way are the plugins any good "feedback"? i've also been looking to join the CG Society which is probably $45 for me, from the look of this forum it will probably be worth it.

My plan is to get better sooner, in australia i can set up a small home business and claim almost all the software and hardware costs in a tax return, but i need to be producing work for clients to be able to legitimise it. "it's a fine balance".

RorrKonn
11-21-2005, 05:28 AM
plugs.
next upgrade the plug may be in the app
or the plug may not work with the new upgrade.

if at all possible I'll get the apps with the tools built in.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

AdamT
11-22-2005, 04:15 AM
I started with tS too.

Caligari continues in its weird ways. Seems like most of the new stuff would primarily be of interest pro users, while their market is composed almost entirely of hobbyist users. And they've gone ahead and released a full version upgrade without updating the buggy tools that their customers actually *do* use, or adding CA tools, which their users have been begging for from time immemorial.

I really don't know how they stay in business.

1image
11-22-2005, 05:00 AM
Downloaded a 30 day trial of 3Ds Max last night with no limitations cama with tut's on just about everything and i didn't have to go on a lengthy search to find everything.

I'll soon see the difference, i've got bit of spare time!!

3DKiwi
11-22-2005, 06:00 AM
I'd also suggest checking out the demo of Cinema 4D. It's easier to learn than either trueSpace and 3DMax. For lots of free C4D tutorials head over to my site: C4D Cafe http://www.c4dcafe.com Quite a few ex tS users like myself hang out there.

One of trueSpace's biggest problems apart from being buggy is lack of decent training resources. They do have Pro team where you get some video tutorials but they're nothing like what you can get usually free for the other well known applications and the price of Pro team is very high for what you get. Many Pro Team members have been complaining about no new content for over a year. Of course the problem is that tS7 should have been out around 12 months ago but obviously it took longer to produce than planned.

One thing. No matter what 3D application you end up getting. Be prepared to putting in few years to learning it and how to model etc. it's something that takes quite some time to get proficient.

I agree with Adam's comments. I think Caligari has lost site of who its target market is. Whilst tS7 is clever, how many of us hobbyists have the urge to work in collaboration with someone else? Not me. I'm more interested in work flow / ease of use.

3DKiwi

RorrKonn
11-22-2005, 09:13 AM
1image your sorta new to know what Max tools our missing and what plugs ya might need.it took me years to get 1/4 the way threw all the demos.

so I asked each app's forms
you all have
Hair
Cloth
lip sink
how goods ya rigs.
forest sky generators.
etc etc

I don't know what your doing 3D for so don't know what tools u would need.
deferent apps our better at deferent things.

AdamT I am not so sure C4D should be raggen on TS rigs ;)

3DKiwi I think TS is trying for pro gamers with collaboration and real time readback.
and it would be alot easier to show a newbie how to do something with collaboration then emails or forms.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

1image
11-22-2005, 10:40 AM
Sorry it took me so long to reply.

AdamT,
I started to feel that way about TS, seems like it's being more designed for pro users, although the forums friendly and helpful there's very little support from the company except for "proteam" i'd rather have the "CG Society" membership.

3DKiwi,
thanks for the tips and link, i understand it will take time, as much as i can from my point of view (newbie)! what i'm really concerned with is getting an App, even if it takes me 5Yrs to learn, that at the end of the day when i am proficient, the App that i've learnt on, will be recognised by the big guns. I will defenatly be over some time to check out C4D i've heard so much talk about it and it's all been good.

RoorKonn,
my dreams and ability are far far apart at the moment but my destination at least at this point in my 3D relationship is film and TV, primarily film, but i think i'll just concentrate on getting my stills right at the moment.

Pentium4, 512Mg Ram, Ati Radeon 9600Pro 40Gigs Just a baby but powerfull enough to have a look.
I haven't invested in Paintshop yet but as my post said in TS forum i'm moving to a mac enviroment with much more power and Graphics ability,
so max might not suit me i might have to go for maya,
but who knows by then we might have "MaxiMaya" workable on both platforms.
Macs already come with a reasonable post process program and i'll be studying
Screen Cert 3 with a package called Final Cut Studio,
which i'm lead to believe they do a lot of TV editing with.

naes3D
11-23-2005, 12:42 AM
Hope I didn't double post, but to shorten what may have been lost in my previous attempt to reply, I think that the new version of trueSpace is a good move for the program overall but I am afraid I don't understand it's marketing strategies. I have dabbled with trueSpace for as far back as version 2 but didn't make a serious stab at trying to learn it until version 5.

One thing I know for sure is that people have been asking for virtually the same things for at least the last 3 or 4 versions. truesSpace 7 is yet another promise to deliver.

If it doesn't do so this time I fear for the company.

xtrudethis
11-23-2005, 01:07 AM
I agree... Take the modeling end of things... it all comes down to having the tools and workflow to get the job done... and with so many ramped up modeling apps already there to choose from, well, trueSpace best be something ultra special to get my nod, never mind money.

1image
11-23-2005, 01:57 AM
Naes3D,
I think if they want to get the 3D World talking they ought to bundle the T7 package and throw in a couple of new tutorials to bring you up to speed with new features and sell the whole lot a hell of alot cheaper atleast to the TS community.

ctguitars
11-23-2005, 06:02 PM
Hi Guys,

TS7 will retail at $595. Upgrade $299/$399.

BUT elsewhere -

LightWave [8] full bundled with Vue 5 Infinite from e-on software only $795.
Your LightWave [8] full/Vue 5 Infinite [ Vue Inf worth $599 to buy seperately ] bundle comes with a FREE upgrade to LightWave 9 with electronic documentation, upon its release.

LightWave [8] upgrade bundled with Vue 5 Infinite for only $395!
Your LightWave upgrade/Vue 5 Infinite [ Vue Inf worth $599 to buy seperately ] bundle comes with a FREE upgrade to LightWave 9 with electronic documentation, upon its release.

So for $200 extra you get Lightwave 8.5 PLUS Vue 5 Infinite PLUS free LW 9 upgrade OR with respect to the upgrade ... no real difference.

[ Check the LW site at www.newtek.com (http://www.newtek.com) for details ]

This is NOW, the market TS is involved in. It no longer has the 'lowend' pricing area virtually to itself. The 'BIG BOYS' are coming on in there as direct competition.

The figures speak for themselves. LW used in a huge amount of Pro CG Studios / Films etc. TS not or not as many by a long shot. So as a move toward getting work in the industry, if that is what is wanted, the choice is a bit of a no brainer.

Personally - I have to say I am imminently due to go for the LW upgrade which also includes VUE INFINITE [ $599 to buy seperately ] and LW9,

cheers
CTGUITARS
Lightwave 8.5, Realsoft 3D 5, Truespace 6.6

1image
11-23-2005, 08:13 PM
The problem for me is i only have enough knowledge to blow up a nutshell :eek:.
I gotta thank TS for introducing me to the basics.
I guess we can kick all the Apps in the guts one way or another, it really comes down to personal preference and your purpose.
With the way i'm going i'll probably spend the next 3 or 6mths trialing Apps for that very reason to find what works best for me.
I shore wish that someone or few people could tell me what are the most used Apps in the T.V. & Film Ind. so that i don't waste time with Apps that just aren't going to count. I don't mind saving up the bucks, but i don't want to waste them when i do.

ctguitars
11-23-2005, 09:49 PM
Hi 1image,

Before I start - PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY.

You could probably list the top 4 or 5 3D apps [ the big boys ] as the ones used most in TV and Cinema. One of these apps is Lightwave:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/index.php - have a look under the inspiration menu option, also note the banner about Lightwave and the recent movie Serenity.

Of all the top apps at the moment LIGHTWAVE is the most competitively priced - and this is important - WITH A FULL INBUILT FEATURE SET, relative to the others. To decrease prices alot of the other big boy apps slice out or modularise features and give you a cheaper price but with less functionality. Suck you in and then you have to spend more as you grow with the app. A case in point here is Softimage XSI with there XSI foundation v's essentials v's advanced [ $495, $1995, $6995 ]. With Lightwave at $795 you get the full package - inc hair, cloth etc [ http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/features.php ].

Lightwave 9 is imminent and included when you purchase LW 8.5 at the moment.

Now I might sound like a Lightwave Salesman, I agree it does sound like that. But like you I was searching for a pro app widely used in the industry that wouldnt break the bank. Well for me LW fits the bill, especially with the recent dramatic price cut to $795 and all it includes.

I am a hobbiest - the three apps I use are Realsoft 3D 5, Lightwave 8.5 and less and less Truespace. I use RS as i find the Modelling features / speed very good FOR ME and I like the community. I export as an obj and then into LW for animation and such things. Lightwave gives me access to the 'big boy' tools. You will find that LW is among the apps that always is listed re connectivity to other 3D tools - for example Motionbuilders FBX format to import / export models and animation data in and out of this top animation app.

So JUST MY ADVICE would be have a look around, but for features / functionality and bang for your buck with respect to the big boy apps - you wont go far wrong with settling on Lightwave,

Cheers
CTGUITARS

PS - A good test is look at job adverts in the CG field, at CG training adverts and that kind of thing - in mags and on the net and see what apps are being mentioned - the ones that pop up always are - XSI, 3DS Max, Maya, Cinema, Lightwave.

1image
11-23-2005, 10:33 PM
Thanks for the tips ctguitars i will be shore to look into some of them. LW will probably be the next App that i trial, as far as Maya goes it doesn't like to work on my system, their specs say you need Xp Pro, for what i don't know there is very little difference between Pro & Home. And you can see my specs a couple of posts ago. Will LW run on Mac Os?

Oh and by the way thanks for directing me here, much happier now :thumbsup:

ctguitars
11-23-2005, 10:55 PM
Hi 1image,

Yip - Lightwave runs on Mac, the Sys req are here:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/requirements.php

dont forget the added bonus with LW at the mo, the Vue 5 Infinite [ $599 to buy normally ].

"Vue 5 Infinite is the most efficient and advanced solution for creating, animating and rendering natural 3D environments":

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Products/vue5infinite/

Very capable app this, get the demo also - as it comes with the purchase of LW 8.5




for what i don't know there is very little difference between Pro & Home



Huge difference between Pro and Home re Security. Home is also restricted with Networking also. Generally if you can afford it, get the Pro ver of XP on any new system or upgrade.

Cheers
CTGUITARS

1image
11-23-2005, 11:11 PM
Thanks for the help didn't know there was that much difference :banghead:

RorrKonn
11-23-2005, 11:14 PM
Yes Lightwave is a power house app
so why is it so cheep ?
it's old n a pain to use.
Witch would u give $2500 for, LW or Maya ?
LW dropped there prices cause they couldn't compete with the top dogs.

Yes Lightwave has been used in alot of Movies & TV videos
Hobbyist don't make these. Pro 3D crew with yeas of experience do.
LW is made for Pro 3D crews not hobbyist.
the 3D crews don't pick what app there using. suits that no nothing about 3D do.

besides all the bad u do get a hell of a bang for ya buck. :)
I use TS,C4D instead of LW's modeler to model with.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

RorrKonn
11-23-2005, 11:19 PM
plugs may be PC or Mac only
seems most our for PC's

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

ctguitars
11-23-2005, 11:32 PM
Yes Rorrkonn,

it's old n a pain to use.

But LW 9 is on the way, which may address alot of stuff:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/lw9featureprelim.php

LW with edge editing in 9 - i think ...

Hobbyist don't make these. Pro 3D crew with yeas of experience do.


Yes, but what 1image seems to be looking at is for a more Pro app, he mentions "Movies & TV videos" type of stuff above. Once you get involved with any of the "big" apps im afraid lots of learning time needs to be invested regardless of which one, so next consideration is price and Lightwave is attractive price wise at the moment compared to the other big apps. LW will rise again, it has such a huge following I cant see otherwise. It is still very highly regarded in the Pro 3D crew scene.

Cheers
CTGUITARS

RorrKonn
11-23-2005, 11:48 PM
yes LW 9 is getting Edges note it took to version 9 to get what TS has had sense atleast 4 don't know before ts4 had.

LW's strongest points was they where the only few that had morphs.
now everyone is getting Morphs.

LW has a huge following,yes but eventually they leave for bigger dogs.
alot of them left when it took LW so very long to release LW 8.

in 1995 LW was one of the top dogs in 2005 it's just not.

will LW rise again from the grave ?
I look at TS,LW companies the same.
I wish them the best of luck but not buying any of there stock.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

1image
11-23-2005, 11:59 PM
1 thing Lw has going for is it is Mac enabled, i don't want to reignite the Mac V's Pc debate but i'm going to study screen for 2Yrs on a "Mac", so obviously it has lot to do with my choice.
I don't know why they or many other colledges choose to work with Macs other than to say it's probably because their geared better for graphics, i know i was impressed with just the standard features,
have a look at "Final Cut Studio" it definatly looks like it's been designed for the Ind.
I know looks can be decieving but what can you do besides ask questions to who you think might know more.
Speaking of my question it was to find out what App would be recognised by the big guns after becoming proficient, so as to not waste money!!

Frank Lake
11-24-2005, 12:29 AM
Lightwave as a starter app.. with MAX & MAYA (all learning editions, cheaper) close behind.

In today's industry learning multiple programs is better on the resume then being dedicated to a singular program. The same goes for computer platforms. Learn both Mac & PC.

But this is all beside the point this was meant to be a thread about TS7 and not pointing out the pros & cons of other packages for a new person. Do that with the PM function. ;)

1image
11-24-2005, 12:41 AM
Thanks Frank my appologies i didn't relise i was in the wrong, guess i soughta got carried away talking. Also thanks for the advise. :)

naes3D
11-24-2005, 01:58 AM
I think the best thing that Caligari can do now is pick a target market and then satisfy them.

Sure they have a lot of loyal users, but they don't really have a market that they seem to cater to IMO. The market Caligari is courting to seems to be the 'people who need a 3D app' niche or maybe the 'people who love underdogs' corner. trueSpace seems to have always gone half the distance and left people wondering why they can't take the next step.

trueSpace7 seems to be a good platform for something great later on, but again it seems they are only taking us half the distance to a destination so many other apps have already arrived at with lower ticket prices.

RorrKonn
11-24-2005, 03:50 AM
1image

after u hang out at these forms long enough u just know all the answers.

get witch ever one of these u can afford LW,Max+Main Plugs,Unlimited+MB,Advanced.
once u learn one of them u will get any of the others easy.

Adobe Photo Shop,Primer,After Effects,or there ='s.
zBrush,Poser.

If u know all these your nobodies fool.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com/)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

1image
11-24-2005, 04:48 AM
Thanks rorrkonn :)

ctguitars
11-24-2005, 11:45 AM
Hi Guys,

I know we got a bit sidetracked on the Lightwave thing, but my initial point - to get on track again - was about the cost of TRUESPACE 7 and the new competitive environment in the world of 3D apps it finds itself in. Whether LIGHTWAVE has fallen from grace or not is one thing, but it still has a far bigger professional audience than TS has ever had. Now you can get access to an app that is still considered part of the top 5 for not much more than Truespace costs. Arguably you could say for less when you factor in the fact that you also get Vue Infinite [ $599 ] and LW9 upgrade. OR [ to move away from LW ] you can get XSI for $495 [ approx ], well the foundation edition anyway.

We - over at the REALSOFT 3D IRC and mailing list have been arguing this very same fact relating to REALSOFT also. The conclusion mainly comes down on the side that RS may have to drop from $600 to about $250-$300 in the future to stay someway in the game [ yes believe it or not it still exists :) ]. Some have even said it needs to go the route of a lite cheap poly model version and a dearer full pro version. As an aside, RS has been around a long time, since Amiga days. Is TS destined to go on a similar route as the competitive market pricings become more compressed?

My response to learning versions, well, watermarks for a start OR limited import / export. When learning / doing CG a certain element of ego slips in, we want to see our finished project in all its glory to show it off - unhindered : ) But yes, they are good for road testing apps.

Yes, buy what you want, learn what you want, but I think TRUESPACE / CALIGARI are going to have a tough time of it - particularly in keeping its existing price structure - in such a competitive and fragmented market now. It came as a small shock to me that the animation section upgrade has been left for a later charged for release. The whole release of 7 - to me - sounds a bit raggedy around the edges at the mo, unfinished.

http://www.caligari.com/products/trueSpace/ts7/Brochure/specification.asp?Cate=BSpecification (http://www.caligari.com/products/trueSpace/ts7/Brochure/specification.asp?Cate=BSpecification)

This is the new spec page. From what I can gather its a doctored TS 6.6 page, with the red parts being TS 7 ..... mmmm!

Cheers
CTGUITARS

DanSilverman
11-24-2005, 02:28 PM
A few here have mentioned that Caligari seems to not be sure who it its target audience is anymore ... that they have mostly a hobbyist audience but are attempting to appeal to pros. I don't think that Caligari has lost touch. Instead, I think they have a plan ... and a rather diabolical one at that ;) . Personally, I have absolutely no love for Caligari. My experiences with them (coupled with the experiences of others) have lead me to believe that they are a shady company at best. I think that Caligari knows what they are doing. Essentially they are attempting to get those that already own TS to upgrade (yet again!) in order to get a "pro" tool (or a tool marketed as a pro tool). In other words, they have their following and they are attempting to milk them for all they are worth.

Sue3d
11-24-2005, 03:04 PM
Judging from the online brochure, tS7 is too little, too late. I agree that it will be extremely difficult for Caligari to stay alive with these features and these prices in today's market. You can get LightWave or XSI Foundation in that price range. I wonder how many people would find this collaboration feature useful? At the same time, it seems like they've hardly added anything to the modeling area. No word about a better UV editor, edge extrude, displacement, hair/fur, cloth...

I started with tS5.1 and I really enjoyed it for a while. It does have a lot of neat features and tools that I miss in other programs. But it was very frustrating not having some of the tools other programs have, having some stability issues, plus the lack of resources. I switched to Maya a couple of years ago, and I found that tS was a very good foundation for that. (BTW, 1image, Maya works on the Mac and it's used a lot in films. I believe it works on XP Home - I tried the PLE version on that system -, but 512 GB RAM might not be enough and it's not very happy with ATI cards. Alias has a page with recommended cards and computers, send me a PM if you can't find it.)

I wonder what people who have beta tested tS7 really think of it!

Frank Lake
11-24-2005, 03:39 PM
I wonder what people who have beta tested tS7 really think of it!
Well from what I've seen a HUGH amount of the beta testers are ProTeam users and incredibly bias when it comes to TS. But then again they also have paided hundreds of dollars for 'training' too. So it's frankly not hard to say that the beta testers are more interested in TS for the hobby then it's ability. BUT many also have try'ed out or use several programs and mostly understand what TS needs, can't fault them there, shame Caligari doesn't. They seem hooked on the concept of 3D for 2D work.

Still kinda funny that people know that other programs can get them where they want to go faster, but refuse to move on when it's clear that they can't get there with what they have. Which is why I personally dropped TS and it only now works as a 'cheap' slow render engine.

RorrKonn
11-24-2005, 05:36 PM
Humans our not rules buy logic, there ruled buy emotions.
Name one logical thing about marriage,it's madness ;)

Some app's our just work.
TS is fun & one of the easiest app's to use


RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

DanSilverman
11-24-2005, 05:48 PM
Humans our not rules buy logic ... TS is fun & one of the easiest app's to use

I suppose you just proved your point ;) .

trueSpace is not fun and it is not all that easy to use ... especially when parts of the app are just plain broken or do not work as they should. If you think that looking for work-arounds are fun and easy, then I suppose, yes, trueSpace is fun and easy to use.

RorrKonn
11-24-2005, 10:50 PM
point is use what ever u like for what ever reason u like.
don't mater what others use.

TS is fun to, some of the other app's just feel like I'm working.
I like icons n customizing my UI.
and the modeling tools.
http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_TS_Polygon-Draw.htm (http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_TS_Polygon-Draw.htm)
I have the bells n whiles turned off,TS does not crash on me.

I realize this has become Trash TS thread.
but I can trash any of the app's.

what I don't get is why we go this vs that app.
when all the app's have major flaws in them.
and as long as we keep paying $1000's for trashed app's there never going to fix them.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

1image
11-25-2005, 12:43 AM
Hi All,

I think in conclusion to my question which i'm starting to wish i'd never posed in the 1st place, "because now i see a war beginning". I can get a copy of 3DsMax student Ed for A$275. while i am a student, and if i learn that i should be able to pick the others up fairly easily, however i'm probably going to get a Mac soon and i can get Maya Ple free.



Please note i have left this thread and will not be resposible for a "War of the Apps".
I simply wanted some advice and thank those who have helped me in this process.
A special thanks to Frank who helped pull me up and realise what i may have started.

If you have anymore advice please use the PM function as Frank advised. :blush:

"I wish i'd read leigh's post before i said anything".:banghead:

Frank Lake
11-25-2005, 01:40 AM
No your not at fault 1image. You had valid questions and asked them. It's our own fault because we should've 'known better' to begin with. That's one of the pros and cons of any subject that has a concentrated group of knownledgable people.

But as you can tell people have a love/hate relationship with their individual app and each app has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

Have a good voyage on the digital seas!! :wavey:

1image
11-25-2005, 01:58 AM
Thanks Frank, looking forward to talking with you in the future :)

naes3D
11-25-2005, 05:37 AM
Anybody who has read any of my posts on the Caligari forum knows that I can be critical of the product. I just don't think I am critical in a 'trash the app' sense.

I agree with Dan insomuch as Caligari is attempting to milk their customers for all they are worth. What company doesn't tho? I have said beforew that Caligari tends to market trueSpace as more of a proof of concept than an actual application that meets the needs of 3D users.

IMO, trueSpace has it's sites set on Cinema 4D.

DanSilverman
11-25-2005, 07:02 AM
I also want to apologize for entering into and participating in this "app war". On the other hand, I have had legitimate experiences with both Caligari and trueSpace. My thoughts in this thread, app war or no, are based on them. I am not so much a "fan boy" of any app (I own several 3D apps and use them), but I do have a negative impression of Caligari that does indeed leave a bad taste in my mouth. Frankly, I don't want others to have to experience the same thing ...

ctguitars
11-25-2005, 10:36 AM
Hi Guys,

ROMAN [ owner of Caligari ... I think ] started a thread where he personally answers questions posed AND he has answered:

http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/74/20137.html?1132908122

RE this thread and app bashing, jeez, I didnt get that feel at all. OK some people have strong feelings about TS, better that than nothing.

RE the Lightwave side discussion - OK we got side tracked in discussion, but that happens in real life too. As does somebody steering it back on track. So no harm done.

The most interesting thing for me is back to price again and how TS will competitively survive in an increasingly compressed market. I still think it a good idea that apps like Truespace and Realsoft split the app and bring out a Cheap Modeller version with there respective modelling toolsets and methods [ ala Silo, Eovia and the like ] and then a pro full version. The former may bring people on board because of price and / or a love of that apps modelling functionallity. After this [ dependent on very good import / export functionallity ] one could either purchase the pro version of the app OR go buy another different app because, maybe it has a better render solution OR animation. Any way I ramble, you get the idea.

Cheers
CTGUITARS

DanSilverman
11-25-2005, 11:41 AM
I have not (yet) read the thread where Roman is answering questions, but I do know that he and other administrators/moderators on their forum heavily moderate what is said there. They have been known to totally remove posts for a variety of reasons, especially if the post is preceived as overly negative about their products (even if the complaint is a valid one). This led to some problems over a year or so ago when several people were complaining about GameSpace. There were several complaints about what the GameSpace web page advertised and what was actually delivered when GameSpace was ordered. In other words, the web site promised the moon and delivered something considerably less. The result was many were upset and made it known.

The interesting thing was is that many of the posts were very civil and seemed like an honest attempt to help Caligari see shortcomings in their program. Instead of being thanked for attempting to help with these issues many of these posts were edited or simply disappeared. A few users were banned from the forum and Roman himself entered the fray to defend his pride and his software. It was very interesting to watch and very sad at the same time.

It is just another reason I do not trust Caligari.

R10k
11-25-2005, 01:09 PM
I recall you bringing that same point up last time there was a Truespace related thread, Dan ;)

I've been a TS user for a little while, and have had a look at the TS7 beta. Unfortunately because of time issues, I haven't been able to actively participate in the beta testing as much as I would have liked, but it was good to see how things worked in the TS camp.

I originally got accepted into the beta program because I vocalised my issues about Truespace 6.6 as a too unstable program for use in a professional environment. The main issue was- the underlying structure just wasn't a good base to keep building apps on, and I hoped they'd do something different with TS7. So, Roman (I think kindly) suggested I have a look at TS7.

Long story short- TS7 is an interesting beast, since there are a lot of interesting concepts that have been worked into it, which will allow for a lot of innovation down the track. However, I tend to agree with people that it's overpriced. The other thing that concerns me is that TS7 doesn't seem to be specifically targeted at anyone at all. I always enjoyed using Truespace, when it worked, because it was simple... and being someone new to 3D, I really needed simple. (and sometimes simple is good, anyway) On the flipside of the TS coin however, TS7 is complex on every level. It's complex to look at, complex to use, and a great deal of other 3D complexities are now exposed. Because of this, I think the vast majority of guys into CG (especially the usual TS crowd) will run for the hills because they don't understand what's going on. In usual Caligari style also, the widgets for things like camera movement are placed in the absolute worst places imaginable, and other simple things that would go towards a user-friendly experience have been left as unfriendly as they were in TS5. It's not all bad, but I really would have hoped for those things to be improved.

TS7 is most certainly still Truespace, and it's not going to win over anyone that's used and disliked the ones before it. But, despite the expected Caligari spam mails and beginner user community, the one thing you can say about Roman and his team is that they're not trying to make Truespace into a clone of Maya or 3dsMax.

Who knows, maybe the 3D world needs that very 'unique' app, which is Truespace... overpriced or not ;)

RorrKonn
11-25-2005, 04:23 PM
Yes TS7 is around $ 500 or $ 600
but TS5 is on sale for $89.00
TS3 was free ts4 was $100
TS has a door for anyone to get in to 3D no matter how broke they our.

You could get TS 5,Poser,Bryce n not have $500 in ya entire studio n post renders at http://www.renderosity.com/ (http://www.renderosity.com/)
all day long.

For hobbyist on a small budget, it works.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Frank Lake
11-25-2005, 06:08 PM
Yes TS7 is around $ 500 or $ 600
but TS5 is on sale for $89.00
TS3 was free ts4 was $100
TS has a door for anyone to get in to 3D no matter how broke they our.

You could get TS 5,Poser,Bryce n not have $500 in ya entire studio n post renders at http://www.renderosity.com/ (http://www.renderosity.com/)
all day long.

For hobbyist on a small budget, it works.
That's totally dependant on what the hobbyist wants. Is the hobbyist just a model builder? Are they wanting to make animations? Love to make scenes? Do they have alot of time for this hobby? Do they need alot of support? Wishing to just explore what 3D is?

All valid questions that a hobbyist must answer. Then their is the Blender question.

But the bottom line is that trueSpace 7 doesn't meet the hobbyists requirements for price OR easy of use. And barely meets the requirements of fast quality work for illustrators.

--------------

OH! And I've read that Roman thread. Not even worth the read because of so few questions have been answered or simply danced around with promotional "but, here this new feature..." dialog. Even the various former artists who are now employees are spouting the same thing. Promotion, promotion, promotion! Dialog without straight answers. But the email I got told me tons when I throughly read it.

RorrKonn
11-26-2005, 04:08 AM
There our 100's of this vs that app threads if not 1000's.
why ?
3D falls under the same category as politics and religion some how, not sure how thou.

All I know for sure is TS can provoke passion out of people more then any other app.
no middle for TS
ya either love it and defend it to the very end.
or
hate it with a bloody passion.

Maybe that's it's charm.


RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

naes3D
11-26-2005, 11:54 PM
There our 100's of this vs that app threads if not 1000's.
why ?
3D falls under the same category as politics and religion some how, not sure how thou.

All I know for sure is TS can provoke passion out of people more then any other app.
no middle for TS
ya either love it and defend it to the very end.
or
hate it with a bloody passion.

Maybe that's it's charm.


RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com/)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on one point. I neither love nor hate trueSpace. What tS does well, I really like, but in every area I want to progress tS is horribly lacking.

Believe it or not, trueSpace does a lot of things right, but it does many things wrong.

Caligari has done an excellent job of building a loyal customer base. But one of my many fears about the trueSpace product is that if and/or when trueSpace does find it's niche, this is going to mean bad news for anybody who doesn't find themselves in that niche group.

AdamT
11-27-2005, 04:32 PM
Seems to me that Caligari has the right general idea with tS7, i.e., they needed a core rebuild to get rid of the hideous bugs. HOWEVER, they're about three years too late. As a result they're releasing tS7, which provides the new framework, but by their own admission they haven't had time to rebuild any of the buggy tools within the new framework.

Maybe it'll be a decent app. in a year or two when everything has been recoded, but while Caligari is busy reinventing its own wheels, all the other apps will be moving forward. In two years time tS will be even farther behind than it is now.

Incidentally, anyone remember around three years ago when Cali's former evangelist left and said that tS' core was a hopelessly tangled bug nest? Cali issued angry denials? Guess who was right.

I also agree that Cali's editorial policy sucks. In truth that's the reason I originally switched to Cinema: got banned from the TSML. :) In the old days (tS1-4) you could at least express your concerns without getting canned from the community.

Well, it was the best thing that ever happened to me, so thank you Norm.

Boone
11-27-2005, 08:25 PM
Re: Frank Lake.

"But the bottom line is that trueSpace 7 doesn't meet the hobbyists requirements for price OR easy of use. And barely meets the requirements of fast quality work for illustrators."

For a single illustration, I'd say TS is more than capable. However, when it comes to rendering out frames of animation - then it's stability is an issue.

naes3D
11-27-2005, 11:48 PM
LOL

I was almost in AdamT's shoes. I had 3(?) of my posts removed from the TS7 Update thread and was warned not to make them go any further than that.

I sometimes get the feeling that Roman Ormnandy is really Jim Jones from the way some people revere him and his product, but maniacal loyalty is not limited to just Caligari. Some of the snobbery I see from users of any product is just down right dumb.

I remember I had an art teacher who admonished that 'the music was not in the piano'. I believe that to be very true. In the end, if your choice of application(s) is producing the results you desire, then more power to you.

Comparison and evaluation come with competition and sometimes that they won't be favorable to what ever product you hold dear. But we shouldn't disourage hearing the bad things about them. If our favorite companies development team is listening, we will see those things addressed.

It is obvious that Caligari is not committed to animation capabilities. I hope that changes for the sake of everyone who has hung on to promise after promise to get them right.

Als
11-28-2005, 03:13 AM
I don't really hate it, but I've used it only few times.
I bought version 6.6 based on "Digit" review. Doh!
I'm so sorry I did. I was never able to do much with it.
Not because it's bad program, but UI is in my opinion total chaos.
I'm certain it's easy for old users, but I could not find any of options I was looking for, and it was quite frustrating.
Then I thought I need more power, to make it worth while the money spent, so I bought a package of ALL plugins.
Well what a mistake that was.
Those plugins were for various versions of truespace, to my suprise.
To make mater worse plugins were asking for separate licenses which I didn't receive, and sending emails to various other companies got me nowhere, since no one ever replied.
Some of the plugins I managed to load, were useless with limited or no manuals at all.
All together, waste of money and effort.
So I decided to wait the upgrade, but now what I see is not making me throwing even more money down the drain. And the bottom line is that the upgrade is too expensive for what I see are the new features.
Implementing Vray is very nice idea, but then that's an extra bucks again.
I did finaly managed once to get through to them (after writing long long letter about all my problems) and their answer was to help me hack dark tree plugin and make it work.
The best of all is that this plugin is free for truespace anyway, and I had to pay for it.
I'm sorry if someone finds this offensive, but this was my bad experience.:curious:


Als



All I know for sure is TS can provoke passion out of people more then any other app.
no middle for TS
ya either love it and defend it to the very end.
or
hate it with a bloody passion.

Maybe that's it's charm.


RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

RorrKonn
11-28-2005, 12:05 PM
Als,
I avoid plugs as much as possible.but Darktree is killer for TS.
Not all app's need Darktree.
If TS is not working for u lots of other app's to pick from.
Some app's our more depended on plugs then others.
Some app's our better at certain things.

naes3D quote 'the music was not in the piano'.
very wise teacher u had there.
I don't use TS much these days.
but my avatar chrome was modeled in TS back in the day.
he can hold his own next to any character mesh.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)
TS 6, LW 7, C4D 9, zBrush 2.

Frank Lake
11-28-2005, 07:36 PM
Re: Frank Lake.

"But the bottom line is that trueSpace 7 doesn't meet the hobbyists requirements for price OR easy of use. And barely meets the requirements of fast quality work for illustrators."

For a single illustration, I'd say TS is more than capable. However, when it comes to rendering out frames of animation - then it's stability is an issue.
I disagree. It's not shown the ability to produce quality work in a production level environ. Even with highly skilled and experienced users doing the work.

Very oddly I've NEVER had stability issues when I've done animation rendering. But then again I learned early to keep the scenes short and to composite the scenes together instead of animating everything in a single pass.

1image
11-28-2005, 08:19 PM
Well i tried to keep away but i just got my fingers burnt again, and after what i've said in the TS Forum i probably wont be able to post there again "like so many others".
Here's the post:

Well this is the crunch isnt it.
I"m trying to do a simple logo animation for an assignment (all it does is revolves slowly on the X axis) and it turns out crap.
Is it me, or is it the program,
"isnt that the question of the year".
From what i've heard everywhere i'm enclined to think it's the program, expecially seeing no one seems to be able to help me,
"re:animation turns sour after render"
i suppose it could be me,
i'm gettin tired i of this whole line of questioning in my brain.

Seeing this is probably the last time i be allowed to post in this forum i may as well get it all out.

Beta Testers: you are all good at producing wonderfull HDRI images but can you solve the above mentioned problem? What about simple animation or is the program "all about stills now".

Proteam: why should i pay for a proteam membership when i can't even get the simple stuff done.

At the moment my opinion of TS6.6 is very poor and i'm fairly upset because when i really counted on it for something that would seem fairly simple to do, it has let me down.http://forums.caligari.com/discus/clipart/sad.gif

TS Community you guys have been great
and i'll miss reading the posts http://forums.caligari.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif


Well the end result is i'll have to render one frame at a time and place the images one at a time into mabie Microsoft Movie Editor (What a Joke)!! :rolleyes:

naes3D
11-29-2005, 12:26 AM
1image, you might have to do better than that if you want to get banned from the forum :)

They are a little more lenient in the Rants and Raves room thatn in the Roundtable room.

Rants and Raves is kind of like the confessional you can almost feel free to say what you want (almost) but every other room (well, at least the Roundtable Forum) is moderated as if they were alters to Roman with the moderators as his Metatrons.

ctguitars
11-29-2005, 10:38 AM
If you already ordered the trueSpace7 upgrade, you will be pleased to know that final production work is going well. But I have even better news for you!

As you may know, Caligari has announced that character animation will be released as part of the trueSpace7.1 upgrade approximately 6 months after the initial trueSpace7 release. While trueSpace7's new functionality is amazing value at $299, we received feedback from many of you that character animation tools are essential. I agree. Thus, we’ve decided to provide the trueSpace7.1 upgrade at no charge to all customers who purchase trueSpace7 during this pre-release special offer!

This offer will make it easier for you to get access to the revolutionary new features of trueSpace7 now, and receive next-generation character animation tools at no charge later on their release.



Hi Guys,

A new email recieved from Caligari. Are they listening? What do ye make of this? Have a read ....

Cheers
CTGUITARS

DanSilverman
11-29-2005, 10:59 AM
Are they listening? What do ye make of this? Have a read ....

No. They are trying to get sales. Nothing more and nothing less. I am guessing that the pre-orders are not going as well as they like and so they want to pull in a few more. How will they do that? By offering a "free" upgrade to v7.1 (which should be free anyway).

I love this statement:

This offer will make it easier for you to get access to the revolutionary new features of trueSpace7 now ...

From the other email they sent out we learn that, while the architecture is new, the tools are not new (at least not for the first release). So what is so "new" and "revolutionary" about v7? And, in the face of all the other apps out there, what is so "new" and "revolutionary" in that case?

It is just more Caligari hype to attempt to get your (and my) dollars.

Carpenter
11-29-2005, 11:58 AM
You are wrong on this one Dan... errr... well, yes they are trying to get sales... but... there may have been a thread started in the beta forums that got quite a bit of attention and many beta testers voiced their opinions... :) Can't imagine who might have started that one :), but I'm really glad to see this note. A big step in the right direction.

TS7 is far more than just a rehash of the older tools, there are many new and interesting additions to TS7. Do you need it? Will you want it? Well, that is why demos are made and offered for potential users to use.

I've had my complaints of Caligari and their way of dealing with situations in the past. TS has a place in the industry, there are only a couple of tools in the low end spectrum where a new user can get up to speed in 3D, TS is one of them. Caligari needs to learn that their survival depends on offering quality software at a reasonble price, and customer relations.

The Caligari you had your incident with Dan is not the same Caligari that I have seen over the last 12 months or so. I'm holding out having any further say in their software till I can see what the final product actually is. I may or may not buy TS7, but knowing that they are listening to the user base and beta testers means they are listening and willing to change.

Rich

aaron111
11-29-2005, 05:09 PM
From the other email they sent out we learn that, while the architecture is new, the tools are not new (at least not for the first release). So what is so "new" and "revolutionary" about v7

It would be "new" and "revolutionary" if the tools actually worked.....


Caligari needs to learn that their survival depends on offering quality software at a reasonble price, and customer relations.

Yes, QUALITY as in software that doesn't crash every 10 minutes. I still say Caligari needs to stop heaping on more non working "pro" features and get the basics working. TS strength has always been simplicity but it isn't simple to use an unstable product that doesn't work as advertised. And yeah, they need to get their price under control. I just checked the current going price of TS 6 and I can't believe it is costs $100 more than XSI Foundation. Are they joking? Prices on professional 3D apps have gone down in recent years but TS price remains the same. It's like an insult to their users. I'm guessing TS 7 will cost cost several $100 more??

Frank Lake
11-29-2005, 06:07 PM
TS7 is far more than just a rehash of the older tools, there are many new and interesting additions to TS7. Do you need it? Will you want it? Well, that is why demos are made and offered for potential users to use.

Rich
I'd prefer it if they simply have shown me with images instead of making me waste my my on downloading, installing, and learning another app.!

I'd just as soon like to see recoded 'rehashed' 'older' tools that WORKED better & more stably then new widgets that are limited in nearly everyway. If you look at version 6 it's Skew, Bend, and Taper tools are inferior to 3.2's Mesh Forge(OMG stackable undoable object transforms!!!) plug-in and the spline tools actually took a hugh step backwards. But by and large Caligari's flat-out refusal to intergrate former plug-ins into it's structure has lead to a MASSIVE developer drought and that is really why TS has no truely modern tools.

Oh and Carpenter! Caligari is still Caligari. They've just gotten better at deleting posts. :hmm:

1image
11-29-2005, 08:16 PM
"Customer service is the key" and to my surprise, i actully had after going off a little bit, some support from who i believed to Beta testers or Proteam, they helped me fix what i thought was a simple animation problem. The thing is though i had to turn off alll compression and field rendering to get the job done, "the file size was enormous"
which leaves me wondering, what if i got good enough to do a car chase down the street or something,

wait, wait, pick me, i know the answer to this one! I don't use TS.

Boone
11-29-2005, 08:29 PM
Re: Frank Lake.

Regarding Stability - I'd say you are one lucky swine! :eek:

Regarding Illustration - Sure, you wouldn't see it on an ILM or WETA workstation, but there are quite a few freelancers who use it for their bread & butter.

Nichod
11-29-2005, 08:30 PM
This is hilarious! :applause: I applaud everyone for there mature comment on bashing a program that none of them has used. How many of you have used version 7? Come now. What has CGTALK turned into, a community that produces a thread where everyone feels the need to respond about how they don't like a program. :rolleyes: If you don't like something, then why comment at all? Is it worth your time? And some of the comments are just silly.

Like the following:
I'd prefer it if they simply have shown me with images instead of making me waste my my on downloading, installing, and learning another app.!

So you'd buy a car without first seeing it and testing driving it? Pictures are enough? Riiiiight. :rolleyes:

I for one am looking forward to demoing version 7. Its procedural functions and finally redesigned ( to an extent ) user interface, make it interesting.

As far as price is concerned. COME ON. Anyone who just glances at TS from time to time, KNOWS that they are ALWAYS having specials. And I'm sure the same will be said of TS7. Come Fourth of July or Labor Day, there will be a $99 special.

Boone
11-29-2005, 08:38 PM
I think Nichod is soooooo lame - sooooo yesterday. Why do Caligari keep churning out the same bugged individual? :p

Man, I want my money back! :D

rbolman
11-29-2005, 09:01 PM
You all make me laugh.
Thanks. I really needed it today.

1image
11-29-2005, 09:01 PM
I for one am looking forward to demoing version 7. Its procedural functions and finally redesigned ( to an extent ) user interface, make it interesting.


Nichod, have you read the latest in the "Not Convinced Thread" at TS Forum,
they are saying there won't be a Demo of 7. :)

Frank Lake
11-29-2005, 09:02 PM
Well it was a mature thread before you, Nichod, started casting stones at others. And if I were one of your teachers I'd be embrassed at your lack of reading comprehension.

Your car analogy is in error and is a bad one at that. Images of the tools working and straight forward tool information will tell me far quicker then wasting time with a demo. But oh wait a minute! We have owner statements telling us that the previous versions tooling is still intact and that 7.0 is merely a rebuild with an mild interface change and some new widgets. Now why do I need to spend time learning what I already know, from long personal experience, about the tools in version 7? :rolleyes:

Carpenter
11-29-2005, 09:12 PM
I'd prefer it if they simply have shown me with images instead of making me waste my my on downloading, installing, and learning another app.!

I'd just as soon like to see recoded 'rehashed' 'older' tools that WORKED better & more stably then new widgets that are limited in nearly everyway. If you look at version 6 it's Skew, Bend, and Taper tools are inferior to 3.2's Mesh Forge(OMG stackable undoable object transforms!!!) plug-in and the spline tools actually took a hugh step backwards. But by and large Caligari's flat-out refusal to intergrate former plug-ins into it's structure has lead to a MASSIVE developer drought and that is really why TS has no truely modern tools.

Oh and Carpenter! Caligari is still Caligari. They've just gotten better at deleting posts. :hmm:

Well Frank, I prefer to test software before I buy it, pretty pictures done by professional artists does me no good. But I am sure people will post many pictures for you to look at if you so chose. I am no supporter of Caligari, I made a couple of semi negative posts in the beginning of this thread, they pertained to Caligari charging for the 7.1 upgrade, if Caligari decides to make the upgrade to working bones as part of the 7.0 upgrade price I see that as a plus. I made some statements in the beta forums about this very issue. I felt and still do feel that a working bones system is critical to the success of TS7. If Caligari can change that policy, I felt I owed them at least a post in a positive nature here.

In the end, we each have to make our own descisions on whether to buy something or not, I don't know if I will purchase TS7, but I will test it when it comes out and see if it fits into my needs, the programs I have now do a very good job (XSI and C4D). There are some very interesting tools in TS7 though so I will surely see if TS7 can fit into my budget and work flow. Whether TS7 succeeds or not, I will continue doing 3D and using whatever tools I can find that fit into my workflow. Creating animations and compositing my art into real world video is all I care about :)

Sorry to see you have had such a bad time in your 3D travels, best of luck to you.

Rich

Frank Lake
11-29-2005, 09:49 PM
Yeah the pretty images don't do me any good either. Maybe Silo has spoiled me on that because they've shown the tools in action and not just what the end results are. Ah well!


1image, man you weren't kidding and to hear that from Tom of all people! What's equally surprising is that their lauded coop feature looks to be broadband only. Hope that they'll have the server set-up materials available for dail-ups.

naes3D
11-30-2005, 02:20 AM
Hey I actually think we are doing pretty good here.

We need to airout this stuff. It's topics like these that will help shape the future of trueSpace.

Caligari is headed in the right direction with the software but it still needs help to motivate them to continue in the right direction. Every user who has heard a 'better animation later' promise should know where I am coming from.

IMO if Caligari were really listening to it's customers, animation would have been stable versions ago. Basically, this is about everybody who likes tS coming together and saying that this is 'no more excuses' time.

Give us what we've been asking for.

Wiglaf
11-30-2005, 06:59 AM
I used 5.1 and got fed up with constant crashing. Vray is the most tempting thing in 7, but unless they've really fixed all the bugs I'm not sure it's worth it. I'm thinking of jumping to Lightwave or Cinema 4D as you guys mentioned earlier. Only thing I have to decide now is whether Lightwave with the Vue 5 bonus is a good buy now, or save up and get the C4D bundle sidegrade from trueSpace... Any users want to PM me their thoughts? :shrug: (Lest this become a What Should I Use? thread...)

ctguitars
11-30-2005, 05:16 PM
Hi Guys,

Roman speaks once more in a new thread titled: TS7, a successor to Max and Maya? Bold statement indeed:

http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/74/20194.html?1133334288

"All of this - in my humble opinion - will make trueSpace7 a successor to the current generation of big boys."

Must try this TS7 demo when it appears - if statements like this are made about it - it must be good :)

Cheers
CTGUITARS

eltonhenley
11-30-2005, 05:42 PM
** This is dealing with trueSpace's ANIMATION capabilities - not modelling or stills rendering. **

True, most people who become proficient with trueSpace eventually 'grow out' of it and move on to Maya, Softimage, Max, Lightwave, etc...

However, I am staying with trueSpace so that when I do finish an animated short film, it is all the more impressive. I will know that there wasn't any physically-simulated muscles or hair, etc... ie. the program didn't do the work for me.

It doesn't have a very good bones system so I am using the MotionStudio plugin for that (http://www.pixelfu.com/MotionStudio/)

In the end, due to trueSpace's lack of animation tools, I am left doing it the hard way - but coming from a stop-motion animation background, I don't mind.

Boone
11-30-2005, 07:08 PM
Re: ctguitars.

Quite a statement. But then I suppose anyone would highlight only their triumphs. We'll just have to wait and see... :hmm:

Re: Eltonhenley.

Funny you should mention it, but using TS does remind me of stop-motion animation...I suppose its using those nails. :D

Nichod
12-01-2005, 07:16 AM
I continue to find it funny how many people post there dislikes about Truespace 7. Glad that a few are attempting to be nonjudgemental. And not allowing any past experience with the software or the company impair there judgement. Personally I don't like Truespace. The icon structure never clicked with me, so I barely made a foray into the program. But I do think TS7 deserves a chance before dismissing it. It does sound like an innovative release. I have yet to see this level of 3d realtime performance intergration in a 3d package. Also, the intergration of collaboration is a new thing, and I can see it being useful with product support amony other things. The rendering times seem to have been improved. Nearly half the time in some cases from what I've heard. Which is nice, since in my limited tests of version 5.1 I found it somewhat sluggish for rendering.

The fact they did a complete core rewrite is a good start. And I'm sure was a massive undertaking. In my experience with other developers with rewrites it was quite a headache, especially to transfer tools over. I think the livebridge was a smart way of getting a release to the users to both see how things are going, and not delay it for another year or more. Thus providing funds to pay the workers! And a new interface was much needed as things seemed to be getting quite cluttered. It seems they are going to slowly transfer all the tools over to the new core, and are starting with the modeling tools (SDS, polygon, etc.), then with the free .1 update they will add animation tools over. Seems like a nice deal.

I'm also pretty impressed with the Panel Editor, Material Editor and Link editor. It seems (from the description) that you can build your own tools and modify existing ones. Sounds like Modo a bit. Plus combined with the procedurals modeling, texturing, scripting and animating pretty powerful capabilities may be possible.

I like the intergration of all the different rendering engines. Lots of flexibility. The new physics also could be good. That was one thing that impressed me about TS was its excellent physics setup.

The system requirements could possibly be a bit much for the average user, as I feel they are underestimating what a user should have:

Windows XP or XP Pro
Pentium 3 or equivalent AMD Athlon (Pentium4 or equivalent AMD Athlon recommended)
512 MB RAM (1 GB or more recommended)
120 MB free hard disk space
3D video card with at least 64MB of video memory (DirectX9, full Pixel Shader 2.0 support, and 128MB or more video memory highly recommended)

Anyway. Thats my two cents. I do look forward to the videos they have planned, it will help explain things a bit more. And may help us all judge whats going on. I'm sure a lot of the bugs have been addressed and will be as the individual parts are rewritten. Of course then there will be new bugs. I do hope that the interface will continue to be improved and will limit the icons a bit.

phlewp
12-01-2005, 07:50 AM
Just my 2 cents...

I started out using tS2, then 3, then 4. Each version had stability issues (for me at least). I tried the demos of 5 and 6. They both were buggy as well. I decided to save for awhile until I could afford LW, and I made the switch (and then switched to Maya). I haven't used 7 obviousely, so I can't comment, but I will make comments based on past experience.

It wasn't bugs in the program that bothered me most though.... It was these claims of a new and revolutionary tool. Usually they were poorly implemented and buggy at best. (Remember metanurbs from 4?) trueSpace claims to be an innovative product, yet it always seems like what it's offering is too little, too late. If it was so innovative and useful, it would have tools and features that would set it at the forefront of the market, no? Also, it seems like they don't listen to customers when it comes to providing tools they want, or fixing existing tools. Instead, they focus on creating these "revolutionary" tools, that, as I said before, are poorly implemented and buggy. They also seem to have a history of claiming things that just aren't true. Example being the dissatisfied customers of gameSpace, etc.

I also get the impression that Roman Ormandy is out of touch with the reality of the current 3D market. I'm often left wondering what he was thinking when choosing gallery winners. Often I've seen a great image relegated to an honorable mention as opposed to winning. Now, I know he picks what he likes, but shouldn't Caligari be using their monthly contest as a means of showing off the best images, both creatively and technically so as to show off the capability of trueSpace? Not only that, but for years we've been hearing how tS is going to revolutionize the 3D industry. Has it ever done just that? I can't recall it ever doing that. He claims they were the first to use 3d widgets, and whether or not that is true, I can't comment. But now he's saying that tS7 is going to be the successor to LW, Maya, Max, etc (or as he calls it "the big boys"). I just don't see this happening. tS has been around for awhile now, and yet it's never really gotten any kind of respectable foothold in the market share among studios. Like I said, I've never used tS7, but given their past, I fail to see how it's going to be that much of an improvement over itself, let alone leapfrog Max, Maya, LW, etc.

Nichod
12-01-2005, 09:15 AM
I just don't see this happening. tS has been around for awhile now, and yet it's never really gotten any kind of respectable foothold in the market share among studios. Like I said, I've never used tS7, but given their past, I fail to see how it's going to be that much of an improvement over itself, let alone leapfrog Max, Maya, LW, etc.



I'd have to agree on some of the statements. But at least you seem to be waiting and seeing a bit. Really I've never been impressed with the big hitters. (aka. MAX, LW, MAYA) A lot of the technologies and implementations of tools seem to be lagging behind. Especially in the realm of modeling, polygon editing (loop cut etc) has been really slow in developing and often requires additional plugins to properly implement it. And realtime playback of a group of animated figures in any of them is rarely smooth. This is the reason specialized software has seemed to emerge more and more. (aka Motionbuilder, Messiah, Animanium Silo etc.) At the moment I'd consider XSI and possibly Maxon (with all the plugins, a bit overpriced in the current market) as the most capable at the moment. Maya is in a desperate need of a complete rewrite and addition of new tools in all areas, MAX is buggy as hell, LW..well...yeah they are finally getting a rewrite. That being said. The fact that people comment on TS and its bugs is secondary, every software has them, and an experienced user can work around them. More often its a change of work pattern. Anyway. Just wanted to comment on my current view of the market. Alias has pissed me off to great lengths, I've been trying to contact them for the past 3 months to purchase seats direct from them and question them about a few issues, and its been a waste of time. I can't wait until software like Modo has fully developed and we can perhaps make a move to a more capable and flexible piece of software.

~mrbones~
12-01-2005, 05:22 PM
TS7 is really cool software, I will try to post some screen shots later.

userBrian
12-01-2005, 08:02 PM
Does anyone know if Truespace models are imported by Lightwave?
I imported my 3d model into Truespace and sold prints but a museum
director wants to buy a huge 6 foot print and I plan to add details in Lightwave.
What converter do I use? Thanks for any help.

Sue3d
12-01-2005, 08:11 PM
I'd use the luuv plug-in to export your model as an .obj file. This plug-in comes with the newer versions of tS. In case you don't have it or you have an older version, here's the website where you can download it from:

http://www.pinacoderm.com/tsx/luuv/

Sue3d
12-01-2005, 08:17 PM
mrbones:
Screen shots would be great. I think one problem is that there's not enough information and illustrations yet to see what tS7 can really do.

phlewp:
I know what you mean about the Caligari gallery...

userBrian
12-01-2005, 08:21 PM
Sue3D
Thanks! That was fast! Went to get another beer and the answer is here!
How cool is that! Gonna download now!

thorn3d
12-01-2005, 08:22 PM
"All of this - in my humble opinion - will make trueSpace7 a successor to the current generation of big boys."

...if statements like this are made about it - it must be good :)


Only if they're true.

thorn

HellBoy
12-01-2005, 08:27 PM
hay mrbones, nice to see you man,

Truespace was one of the first 3d app I used, its really cool to see no 7, am looking farward to see the screenshots.

Frank Lake
12-01-2005, 08:43 PM
TS7 is really cool software, I will try to post some screen shots later.
Of course you will say that. You're a Beta tester. And you won't be able to show us what we want to see because of your NDA

What is really remarkable is the near complete lack of tool updating and pursuit of tool refinement. Right now TS could be at the fore-front of digital packages and not the 'johnie-come-lately' that it currently is!!! Especially since it's had Zbrush like functions since version 4!!! Remember the Sculpt tools(which is an early form of the current Soft Select)? Remember the Plastiform tools? Paint Brushs and Chisels!!! MY GOD. Instead we have something that looks like a visual form of POV-Ray

So what if other packages have take the ideas and did something with them. THEY are the REAL innovators.

*PS. Sorry if I sounded abit heated but once I saw the drivel that was posted earlier in a link, well it pissed me off!*

Nichod
12-01-2005, 09:03 PM
Of course you will say that. You're a Beta tester. And you won't be able to show us what we want to see because of your NDA

Actually he can probally show a lot. Since they have released the initial information. Other packages I have tested for generally allow the release of images, screens etc. at this point.

What is really remarkable is the near complete lack of tool updating and pursuit of tool refinement. Right now TS could be at the fore-front of digital packages and not the 'johnie-come-lately' that it currently is!!! Especially since it's had Zbrush like functions since version 4!!! Remember the Sculpt tools(which is an early form of the current Soft Select)? Remember the Plastiform tools? Paint Brushs and Chisels!!! MY GOD. Instead we have something that looks like a visual form of POV-Ray

What is wrong with povray?

*PS. Sorry if I sounded abit heated but once I saw the drivel that was posted earlier in a link, well it pissed me off!*

driv·el (drhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifvhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifl)
v. driv·eled, or driv·elled driv·el·ing, or driv·el·ling driv·els or driv·els
v. intr.

1.To slobber; drool.
2.To flow like spittle or saliva.
3.To talk stupidly or childishly.v. tr.

1.To allow to flow from the mouth.
2.To say (something) stupidly.n.

1.Saliva flowing from the mouth.
2.Stupid or senseless talk.

Kind of a rude statement. But perhaps you've had a bad day.

Sue3d
12-01-2005, 09:07 PM
userBrian:
LOL, you're welcome. I hope everything will work well for you. :)

Als
12-01-2005, 09:28 PM
Since I can't remember my password and user name, I'm not gonna answer to his reply there (on caligari web site) but here.
BTW I was using caligari in 1988 on amiga. It was fun and I actually used in to produce TV animations. I used version TS v3.2 and 6.6.
I tried/used all 3D packages, old love TDI Explore since v2.31. Big fan of "big boys".

As far as interactive animation for web is concered there is a great package there who does most of this stuff already and is geting better all the time, plus is fast and easy to use. (skiping to mention which one, not to sidetrack the tread)

- real time shaders: most of the 3D packages are implementing them. I don't know anyone who is using it in TV/film production, please prove me wrong here...

- I'm glad that TS7 is gonna be and that's great, but so far it wasn't really a film production making tool so far, nor really the video tool either (HD knocking big time).
Vray implementation might maybe change that, but that animation tools are essential too.

- It's good training tool maybe, but explain how would you use this in production.
Please prove me wrong there too.

"Big boys" might be old tools, but they made amazing movie effects with them, which is proof of they're use in production.

Why TS7 animation tools are not mentioned ?
Because maya animation tools, like deformations, hair, cloth, particles, dynamics, fluids etc. are matched in TS7 and surpased? :bowdown:
(I will try to limit my coment to maya since this is what I use most).
Maya has great scripting language and excellent architecture.
All major "big boys" in production are using it, because it can be customised to do about anything and works with great renderers, most of all renderman, which is so far best tool to do unlimited stuff (unlimited resolution, milions of polygons) and all with motion blur, displacement and unlimited texture maps etc.
I've seen amazing stills done with max, some really great renders with Brasil, Vray, MR, etc.
Next limit is taking different aproach to rendering, ...
I don't even want to mention Pixar Renderman...:rolleyes:

Can you sculpt in 3D like you can with Zbrush?

Also as procedural stuff is concerned there is package which does this real well and this is Houdini. Is TS 7 better and deeper implemented architecture easier to use the Houdini?
( there are other tools, like Xfrog for example, but a lot can be done in maya with a mel scripting or plugin writing).

There is huge user base and training resources for maya. Tons of free shaders, plugins and mel scripts. You can write them yourself as well, and it's not that difficult.
How easy is to make GUI in TS 7?:shrug:

Most of the people who write great stuff are snatched from big studios for good money, so it's no wonder that some of developers left. Alias made such a mistake and lost a lot of good programers, but that's life.

Main question is which great achivements truespace has behind ?
I've heard many animators who thought they can do better and faster stuff then Pixar, but only because they had no idea what undertaking is to make 3D animated motion pictures.
Great illustrations are fine, but they can be done with photoshop or even with paint or any other package that can make images one or the other way, all credit to the artists.:arteest:
So clearly this bold statement should be proved by clear examples and more information.
As I previously stated, I bought plugins for TS6.6 and they were hardly usable at all.:banghead:
Dark tree implementation is nice, but this didn't bought me dark tree shader writing as it was wrongly put for me to asume that this was the case.

So, I'd like TS 7 to:
- have one month money back garantee
- vray should come as standard in a package (and they will have many more buyers)
- they should give MUCH MORE information about the new version with pictures, movies, interactive contect and free why not - put the TRUEPLAY on the site so we can see how it works!
- show at least one proper example of how procedural architecture is working
- import/export FBX format ( so we can replace old tools like maya, max, motionbuilder, etc. )
- can ;)run on Xbox360 and PS 3. ;)

I'm not saying that TS7 is not amazing package, but please prove it, show us!
It will be good news for whole 3D community if this was true.
If you don't have time to put the demo of it on the website, send me demo version, I'd be glad to test it.:p

Thanks


Als

Hi Guys,

Roman speaks once more in a new thread titled: TS7, a successor to Max and Maya? Bold statement indeed:

http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/74/20194.html?1133334288

"All of this - in my humble opinion - will make trueSpace7 a successor to the current generation of big boys."

Must try this TS7 demo when it appears - if statements like this are made about it - it must be good :)

Cheers
CTGUITARS

Matski007
12-02-2005, 02:22 PM
Hmmm, i may be a beginner compared to a lot of you people, ive been using truespace for about 5 years and have found it very useful, mostly with how fast I can create in it, i think that in their layout they have made something that can allow people to make some pretty good stuff real quick. its especially good for me to create low polygon models I found. However i can see the major quality differences between Truespace and Maya lol, but for th elife of me I cant figure that software out, Guess ill wait until University to learn it.
Have you seen the new pages telling you about TS7 im looking forward to it as ive been waiting for the ability to use VRay in my images: http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tS7/brochure/intro.asp

Im also pretty impressed with how it can display realtime photorealism

phlewp
12-03-2005, 12:16 AM
Hmmm, i may be a beginner compared to a lot of you people, ive been using truespace for about 5 years and have found it very useful, mostly with how fast I can create in it, i think that in their layout they have made something that can allow people to make some pretty good stuff real quick. its especially good for me to create low polygon models I found. However i can see the major quality differences between Truespace and Maya lol, but for th elife of me I cant figure that software out, Guess ill wait until University to learn it.
Have you seen the new pages telling you about TS7 im looking forward to it as ive been waiting for the ability to use VRay in my images: http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tS7/brochure/intro.asp

Im also pretty impressed with how it can display realtime photorealism

I found that after I got used to Maya (which didn't take long after customizing the UI to match my needs and workflow), I can create things just as quickly as I used to be able to back in my days of tS.

I'm still waiting to see this "real time photorealism" in action though. I'm pretty skeptical about it (as I am with just about anything tS related)

Wiglaf
12-03-2005, 02:50 AM
However, I am staying with trueSpace so that when I do finish an animated short film, it is all the more impressive. I will know that there wasn't any physically-simulated muscles or hair, etc... ie. the program didn't do the work for me.
(snip)
In the end, due to trueSpace's lack of animation tools, I am left doing it the hard way - but coming from a stop-motion animation background, I don't mind.That sounds pretty noble. Kind of like how with landscape generation software like Vue and Terragen it's almost too easy to crank out pretty things (McGraphics?). But there are some things you just won't be able to do. There's no practical way for you to animate every strand of realistic hair manually, so you have to resort to textures or spiky manga hair. If you're going for the claymation look, that might work out fine. But I'd rather have all the tools I can get so I can just focus on the design.

ctguitars
12-08-2005, 12:11 PM
Hi Guys,

Some demo Videos are out for Truespace 7:

http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tS7/brochure/videos.asp

Video 2 looks interesting - the link editor. Looks powerful

Video 3 - soft selection caught my eye,

Cheers
CTGUITARS

Nichod
12-08-2005, 02:14 PM
I will say the does look pretty impressive. Not sure I like the manipulation widgets though. Though I get the impression you can change those. Its definetly looking like its worth a demo.

Nemoid
12-08-2005, 03:09 PM
Not a truespace user, but these vids seemed really interesting to me. i particularly liked the realtime rendering engine(even if i agree that its very very useful only in final refining of your animation - you don't want to get milseaded by the final look of your animation when you're just modelling or rigging)
i also liked the link editor and how nodes are displayed. it seems to me very clever. i like the TS UI, and icons are well designed and make sense for sure.

now about animation capabilities : i dunno . maybe this is a weak point of TS, but they said CA tools will come, so, in 6 months things could change definitely for this software. looking forward to know more about it indeed.

first question to Ts users : does it has or you know 7.0 will have simmetry modelling a la Modo and Lw ?

Silwolffe
12-09-2005, 03:29 AM
Well, I have to say I am proud of myself for reading the entire thread. I was merely searching through google for discussions regarding trueSpace7, and this thread peeked up.

I'm fairly new to 3D modeling, but I find trueSpace (6.6) to be easy to learn and easy to manipulate. Minus the annoying crashes, I find trueSpace to be fun. I definitely know it's not as powerful as other 'mainstream' 3D authoring programs, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it, and I have seen some pretty amazing work produced from it.

I'm still debating on whether or not I should pre-order trueSpace7 (the special pre-order offer is tempting, even if the 7.1 upgrade should be free). I watched the videos last night when I received an e-mail from Caligari, and I was quite amazed with the step in quality for the program.

But, given my history of modeling (I've only complete two actual renders; a cologne bottle and a screwdriver) I would have to say I'm a beginner at best. However, I definitely have the potential, so I will do my best and work throughout the years on trueSpace and produce some renders.

Wiglaf
12-09-2005, 04:38 AM
i also liked the link editor and how nodes are displayed. it seems to me very clever. i like the TS UI, and icons are well designed and make sense for sure. I've always found the icons a litte puzzling. Some of the miscellaneous commands like controlling hit detection are buried in icon groups with no apparent common denominator. Fortunately you can tear the toolbars apart and make your own, but it's sort of a scavenger hunt.

now about animation capabilities : i dunno . maybe this is a weak point of TS, but they said CA tools will come, so, in 6 months things could change definitely for this software. looking forward to know more about it indeed.I'm also not considering upgrading to 7 until I see 7.1 working...

first question to Ts users : does it has or you know 7.0 will have simmetry modelling a la Modo and Lw ?Yes, but only for polygons and SDS I think. I think it's had this capability built-in since version 6. Screen: http://caligari.com/products/trueSpace/ts7/Brochure/MirroredFace.asp?Cate=BModeling

R10k
12-09-2005, 11:01 AM
I wish I could say I'm excited about TS7, but I'm not in all honesty... mainly because it runs like a bog on my Geforce 5600 and 1.5Ghz cpu (and that's at the lowest shader settings, in the player view). Combined with the quite horrible to use control widgets, using TS7 is like a chore when compared to XSI 4.2, which I also use. I'd love to get into using it, but navigating in TS is just so much of a task at times, I usually just give up and use XSI instead. I've always disliked the TS control system (especially if you have a lot of small movements to make for a long period of time) and TS7 does nothing to fix that. Maybe I'm at fault for not having a $1200 video card, and maybe I'm just whining about the control system... but there you go. I'd love to learn TS (because another program on hand is always good) but I don't forsee myself using it because of those things.

Carpenter
12-09-2005, 01:20 PM
I wish I could say I'm excited about TS7, but I'm not in all honesty... mainly because it runs like a bog on my Geforce 5600 and 1.5Ghz cpu (and that's at the lowest shader settings, in the player view).

On my 3.0 Ghz XP Pro FX5600XT system Player is slower than optimal also... but you do not have to purchase a 1200.00 card :) I think the going price of an NVidia or ATI card that will run TS7 well is in the area of 100.00 to 150.00 (obviously a better card should yield even better results...), and I am sure if you shop around you could find one cheaper.

I have another system that has a ATI X300 PCI Express card in it, the difference from the 5600 is truly amazing, fast clean real time DX9 shader support.

I use XSI daily also, as well as other 3D software, TS7 has a lot of potential, whether Caligari can reach it's full potential is another thing... I have my fingers crossed.

Rich

R10k
12-09-2005, 02:54 PM
The player isn't just slower than optimal- it's pretty much unusable. The 5600 never did handle pixel shaders very well, but I've run quite a number of games with 1.4 shaders (2.0 is a no-go area) and the card handled it quite well. I brought up the point with Caligari and they said that while a game is optimised for speed, they need to calculate a whole pile of stuff more than what a game would (and can't optimise/cull things as a game engine would, which is fair enough), which supposedly explains why I can barely push around 5k worth of polys, even by dropping back to 1.2 shaders. I'm not sure I buy that explanation however, considering TS has had for a very long time the slowest D3D (and Opengl) implimentation of any of the 3D programs around. Load up XSI and throw in a 50k poly object, and then spin around it while in shaded/wireframe mode. Then, do the same in Truespace 6.6, or in 7's modeller view. Once you've done that, you too will wonder if the TS7 implimentation of shaders is as good as it can be.

I don't mean to put the guys down who worked hard on it... as I said, the issue could be with my card, and that's that. But, I'm not at that place where I have full confidence in what they're doing, if that makes any sense to you.

Carpenter
12-09-2005, 04:09 PM
The player isn't just slower than optimal- it's pretty much unusable.
With each RC candidate the Player's performance varies, each version of NVidia's drivers the performance varies, some versions of TS7 were unuseable for me, the most recent is ok... hopefully performance can improve for us on the lower spectrum of the hardware ladder. I can apperciate how annoying it is to constantly have to update hardware to run software... but realtime rendering in a 3Dapp... that is a pretty big plus.

With my ATI X300 system a 70.00 dollar card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814153017) I get substancially better performance. Moving around high poly characters and meshes was much easier, almost realtime, and that was with fully textured and displacement mapped.

I didn't take your post as putting them down, I've raised the issue myself, and frankly it is an important issue. It's hard enough getting people to buy your software, now convince them to buy hardware to fully push your software :) Not an enviable position to be in :)


Rich

Frank Lake
12-09-2005, 08:51 PM
Hi Guys,

Some demo Videos are out for Truespace 7:

http://www.caligari.com/Products/trueSpace/tS7/brochure/videos.asp

Video 2 looks interesting - the link editor. Looks powerful

Video 3 - soft selection caught my eye,

Cheers
CTGUITARS
I don't have time nor the connection to deal with a freaking streaming video. But tell me how far behind the curve is the Soft Selection tool? Right now the SS tool is becoming a paint brush like tool.

I'd also like to ask how low does the numerical input go now? Is it still add 6.6 levels, which makes it fairly unusable for me, or did they finally move it 2-3 points lower?

schuubars
12-09-2005, 09:05 PM
At the bottom of the video pages, you can save the videos as zip...

~mrbones~
12-10-2005, 06:54 PM
12 meg .wmv file, TS7 experiment demonstrating procedural animation in realtime window.

Dance Club. (http://www.callingmarvin.com/movies/DanceClubExp.wmv)

~mrbones~
12-10-2005, 07:34 PM
Normal Mapped Game Characters animated via Mocap in TS7 realtime window.

1image
12-11-2005, 01:21 AM
Hey Mr Bones,
your obviously going to be working on the 7.1 upgrade which will include updates to charachter animation,
will this include a fur & skin shader? :shrug:

~mrbones~
12-11-2005, 04:25 PM
I know both (skin shader and fur shader) are being worked on right now. I hope they are both included in 7.1

Thanks again and Cheers


Hey Mr Bones,
your obviously going to be working on the 7.1 upgrade which will include updates to character animation, will this include a fur & skin shader? :shrug:

1image
12-11-2005, 07:40 PM
Thanks for the info Mr Bones, i think caligari has come a long way to improving TS as far as we can all tell from the vid's and what not.
My main concern has always been will it be up to professional standard and will there be good support like there is for other apps like Max & Maya and so on.

Can you tell me more about the support being offered through the collaboratve viewer;
will it cost a mint, will there some sort of membership you pay for, so far they haven't really said anymore on that subject. :curious:

Trojan123
12-12-2005, 05:55 AM
Wow! 11 pages. To be honest, I skimmed a few posts tho, while reading others.

I'm a TS user, mainly as a hobby. I wouldn't mind tossing out a couple random thoughts:

"It's not the app, it's the user". That's what us TS users are usually hit with. Granted, there are many breathtaking renders out there done in TS... but not a lot of anims. We TS users tend to hang out in places where more professional apps are used... like here or Scifi-meshes. Lots of free meshes to DL there... as long as you have MAX or LW. We just have to fumble around, altho it is nice to be welcome here or there.

I've always maintained that it's a little bit of both, and this thread seems to lean that way.

I plan on sticking with TS- I know it and it can be kinda fun-, but I don't mind saying that it has its shortcomings. While some out there make great rendered stills, it will have to come a long way before finding itself in a production studio, and there are indeed good reasons for that.

I just wish that Caligari would just try and make their package more like the other apps. Otherwise, they may find themselves following the path of VistaPro.

Chris

1image
12-13-2005, 07:14 AM
Hi all, the UI is up for lookin at in the round table forum at TS comunity, here's a link

http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/74/20287.html?1134447827

Nichod
12-13-2005, 07:30 AM
Thanks for the update. The interface carries over much of the old design. I'm curious how customizeable it is. Since its stated that you can make your own icons, etc.

CupOWonton
12-13-2005, 12:51 PM
Why would someone buy a piece of software if everything in their gallery looks like it was rendered in max 4?

phlewp
12-13-2005, 01:29 PM
Why would someone buy a piece of software if everything in their gallery looks like it was rendered in max 4?

Well, the monthly gallery has always been pretty weak, but I attribute that more to the lack of artists submitting quality work than I do to the quality of tS. Also, I think it goes to show how out of touch Roman can seem at times... Afterall, if the gallery is supposed to showcase what tS can do, what the hell is an image like this (http://www.caligari.com/Gallery/ImagesGallery/2005/sep/winner.asp?img=1824&name=Jason%20Streby&email=c1live1@hotmail.com) doing as the winner?

R10k
12-13-2005, 01:48 PM
Wow, that's... not really showcase material. Still, Truespace is capable of *much* better renderings than that.

Nichod
12-13-2005, 05:18 PM
This is nice: http://forums.caligari.com/discus/messages/74/20300.jpg

Frank Lake
12-13-2005, 07:34 PM
Well, the monthly gallery has always been pretty weak, but I attribute that more to the lack of artists submitting quality work than I do to the quality of tS. Also, I think it goes to show how out of touch Roman can seem at times... Afterall, if the gallery is supposed to showcase what tS can do, what the hell is an image like this (http://www.caligari.com/Gallery/ImagesGallery/2005/sep/winner.asp?img=1824&name=Jason%20Streby&email=c1live1@hotmail.com) doing as the winner?
This question has been raised HUNDREDS of times by TS's own forum goers and they keep getting the same answer. "Because it's the Owners decision." That would be Roman who has a taste for abstract art. It's definatly NOT the lack of skilled users. It's the lack of easy to use software(ie TS).

****************************

Nichod,

Dude you have got to be joking! THAT is the other menu? Why oh Why could they have not gone the Silo route with a truely adaptable interface instead of this HORRID continuance of clutter!!

EDIT: I didn't know that it was your version of the interface.

Als
12-13-2005, 07:54 PM
I guess now might be possible to actually find the menu you need?
What's the point replacing bunch of icons (which no one can't recognize),
with bunch of text (which you can't find/differentiate either).
I guess it's bit better, but still looks like a mess.
I guess you can combine the two or something.
If TS is really that great and better the "old" guys, then please make user interface for us who want to abandon maya, max and xsi and start using TS.
(Like XSI has done for maya users)
There is nothing revolutionary about icons, but the problem is that I can't find my way around at all since they all look too much alike, and frankly not telling me much about what they do.
I understand old users, but they know all the icons by heart anyways.
My main problem with truespace was/is GUI, which I still think is worse by far.
It wasn't maybe problem when you had so much less commands, but now (6.6) is total mess.
I hope there is alternative to this text mess, and that you can actually have a decent menu system. If it was that silly(menus), why everyone else is still using it?
Is maybe Arogance in question?


Als
frustrated owner of truespace6.6 :banghead: with all unusable unregistred plugins which he paid for and never used due to the fact that they don't work without the license and even thou he bought the software he didn't get any licenses for those, and stop using truespace altogether only because of :rolleyes: icons.



This is nice:

phlewp
12-13-2005, 08:19 PM
This question has been raised HUNDREDS of times by TS's own forum goers and they keep getting the same answer. "Because it's the Owners decision." That would be Roman who has a taste for abstract art. It's definatly NOT the lack of skilled users. It's the lack of easy to use software(ie TS).

****************************

Nichod,

Dude you have got to be joking! THAT is the other menu? Why oh Why could they have not gone the Silo route with a truely adaptable interface instead of this HORRID continuance of cludder!!

I fully understand it's Roman's decision. I used to use tS a ways back, so I've heard the answer before. However, that's part of the reason I feel Roman is a bit out of touch if he wants to make it a professional level app. If he's going to pick crap that doesn't show off what tS can do in the monthly contests, then Caligari at least needs a gallery showing off it's full potential.

Trojan123
12-13-2005, 09:23 PM
Why would someone buy a piece of software if everything in their gallery looks like it was rendered in max 4?

Because it's what we know.

Just bear in mind that not everyone who uses TS fully expects to be working in an FX house that uses LW, Max, Maya, etc.

But still... it would be really nice if Caligary would expand their vision to include features that other apps use, and TS 7 geve me *some* hope that bridge would be closed some. Some.

I guess Caligari is trying to compete with C4D. But without more features, they're gonne be competing with Blender, and will lose. Heck, from what I understand Blender has more to it any way.

So why the heck do you stick with it?

Fair question. 1)- because I know it already. 2)- I just turned 35 from 34, and not 34 from 35. My main focus is photography, DV editing and DVD making, and TS is extremely secondary to me. I forsee myself blowing $500 on a full version of Photoshop before any substancial upgrade on 3D. Basically, right now I really don't have it in me to learn something new when my main focus lies elsewhere entirely.

Chris

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