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View Full Version : Brazil r/s Version 1.0 Released


Array
09-01-2002, 06:23 AM
http://splutterfish.com/sf/news.php3

The long wait is finally over for many 3dsmax users. Im still eagerly anticipating the Maya and standalone versions :)

baby
09-01-2002, 05:00 PM
and I'm the Queen of England ;)




Nooooooooooo....

the miracle
we're all waiting for
todayyyyyyyyyy...
doomdoomdoomdoom...
if every drop of 3D rains that fall could be rendered in Brazil...
if every 3D leaf on every 3D tree could be rendered in brazil..
it would be a Miiiiiirrraaaccllleee...

by Queen....(almost)

playmesumch00ns
09-02-2002, 11:57 AM
Yes...a Maya version would be nice. A renderman version would be even nicer. How much would the Maya plug cost? $1200? Ouch.

Isn't Brazil pretty slow too?

mustique
09-02-2002, 01:23 PM
Brazil's cool, but too expensive. (Put another 800 bucks and it costs as much as Maya) Guess the guys at SF are not interested to make it a mass product anyway. Also by the time it gets written for Maya, AW might come up with its next gen app that could have MR integrated a la XSI.
Man would that be nice...

Khepri
09-02-2002, 02:07 PM
all I can say is that version 1.0 rocks!

totally fast, and rendering is beautiful!

Isn't Brazil pretty slow too?
also its faster than scanline... wich is always good! and its one of the fastest raytracers around.

the public version doesn't even come near 1.0 in terms of speed.

if you never used the public version: try it.



oh here are some renders I did with 1.0 :D


toon:
http://www.rain3danimator.com/images/toon.jpg
rendered in 1 minute 26 seconds at 1200x900 res

sss:
http://www.rain3danimator.com/images/sss.jpg
7 minutes 24 seconds at 1200x900 res(this is at pretty high quality)

gi:
http://www.rain3danimator.com/images/gi.jpg
5 minutes 45 seconds at 1200x900 res

also all these images use image sampling of min=1 max=2
and are rendered on a Athlon XP1800+(single) with 1GB ram

cheers!

mustique
09-02-2002, 02:50 PM
Hey Khepri.

Looks like the toonshader is really fast. Could you probably post a few test images (alongside render times) with GI, SSS, etc... (and machine specs)
Could be worth the money if the rendertime/quality ratio is as good as for toon renders.

Xilica
09-02-2002, 03:27 PM
Pure Eye Candy. :thumbsup:

PotatoHead
09-02-2002, 03:31 PM
wow, neat phones! i really like that cartoon style render. and 1.5 minutes is pretty damn fast... cool.

but its expensive - almost the price of lw(which already has an incredible renderer - okay, it doesnt calculate dispersion, but that's about all that it lacks).:buttrock: :airguitar

HapZungLam
09-02-2002, 03:48 PM
Nooooo!!!!! we have to purchase it from now on.....

paconavarro
09-02-2002, 04:00 PM
FINALLY


This is great!!!!!!!!!!

censored
09-02-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by HapZungLam
Nooooo!!!!! we have to purchase it from now on.....

The public version will remain free; the current 0.4.53 available at the splutterfish website has no timelock and will work for however long you want it to :)

Zanith
09-02-2002, 07:46 PM
Absolute coolness! :bounce:

Kaz
09-02-2002, 07:47 PM
how in the world did you do that toon shader with brazil? anyone know? that's a nice shader.

Khepri
09-02-2002, 08:02 PM
Kaz:
the toon material is one of the Brazil native Materials there are also chrome, glass, Brazil utility, and Brazil advanced(wich has all sorts of cool shaders) materials.

they are all really advanced materials and I haven't even touched all the shaders yet. :D

cheers!

/me runs back to Brazil and tests the shaders!

drewbie
09-02-2002, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Kaz
how in the world did you do that toon shader with brazil? anyone know? that's a nice shader.


It looks like he's using the Gooch style that's a part of Brazil Toon. Run a search on Google if you want to know more about Gooch, but it's basically used in Industrial Design Illustrations and other things similar to that.

Khepri
09-02-2002, 08:26 PM
that is correct Drewbie :D

googlo
09-02-2002, 10:02 PM
That looks cool, but it's so expensive :(. In comparison to the new FinalRender at half the price is it worth it to by Brazil?

I swear I don't want to start a flame war, I don't know what to think of either right now. I like how Brazil is marketed, but it seems like Finalrender is just as capable and much less expensive! Do you think it's because FR is produced outside of the US so it doesn't get as much natural coverage here in the US as Brazil does? It just seems really odd to me. Everyone seems to talk about Brazil for Max and hardly FinalRender. Am I missing some kind of crucial difference between the two programs? Or is it because the previous version of FR was an add on to the scanline renderer and so it was just never taken seriously since Brazil has been developed to be a bucket system. Fr is now too, I just don't hear about FR that much in forums for some reason, but it seems just as impressive to me in it's capabilities, even having some beyond that of Brazil.

The only difference I see right now maybe is that Brazil plans on integrating some kind of shader language called Orchid in the future, is that why people are looking forward to Brazil more?

Cebas is very protective of their software, you can't even get into their online forum for FR without first buying and registering with the software. Maybe they just lack the PR awareness that the people of Brazil have. I don't know.

xynaria
09-02-2002, 10:19 PM
Compared to Renderman or even Mental Ray, Brazil is cheap... however it is still priced rather on the high side for individual users and I think there are many who hope they might re-think their pricing strategy as it's liable to be rather a success. Brazil has a far higher public profile than Final Render probably because of the long term free public beta version so many have no excuse for not trying it. It is also possible to do animations with Brazil, something that Final Render tends to need texture baking for. The speed hit when you need texture aa on Final Render rather makes some of it's marketing seem somewhat hyped. :)

Khepri
09-02-2002, 10:59 PM
googlo: heh, your right about not starting a flamewar, seen to many of those lately, and they are totaly useless.


I want to say something wich is flying thru my mind whenever people start giving crits on prices/features/etc.

one thing that none of the complaints/critics have been about is the user/artist friendlyness of Brazil.

Mental Ray isn't very artist friendly(in my opinion), I have not used FR, nor Vray, but with Brazil the creative process gets quantumleaped in terms of creating imagery with quality, and without the hassel of having to read thru 100's of manual pages(MR for instance) before your able to render anything half decent!

and if there is one thing that is important in this industry it is:

SPEED.

raytracing speed, sampling/AA speed, even GI speed.


how much it costs is not really the point here.

the point is: Splutterfish created high-end, high-performance renderengine!

its userfriendlyness is because of the fact that they are from the buisness themselfs. and the public testing have helped them in creating a efficient and scalable renderengine wich can cope with anything you throw at it.

no tricks, just what you expect it to do: assist you in your creative process!

thats my mind

cheers!

wasted weasel
09-02-2002, 11:18 PM
Khepri: how long would those renders have taken if you were using the standard scanline render??

you say it's faster right? cause the old one was wicked slow compared to the default max render, or at least the public version i was using:scream:

pintu
09-02-2002, 11:20 PM
googlo: you don't have to buy fR to be a member of fR Online Forum. The only rule is that you have to use your real name with your nick.

Khepri
09-02-2002, 11:32 PM
wasted weasel: how long would those renders have taken if you were using the standard scanline render??



well, 2 of these renders are not possible to do in scanline(the toon and the sss one) so would not know how long, the last(gi) one would take a long time to setup using a skydome script/ by hand, while in Brazil you only have activate skylight, choose the colour of the skylight/skydome and and press render. the results are better, and renderfaster(because the renderer doesn't have to setup 72+ lights) even if I would activate secondary illumination(radiosity) this would be faster than using a skydomescript.


you say it's faster right? cause the old one was wicked slow compared to the default max render, or at least the public version i was using

its is faster than scanline, what would the point be of creating a renderengine wich doesn't render normal images faster/more accurate than scanline? raytracing is much faster, and also max volumetrics render alot faster in Brazil than scanline.


you should try thelatest public beta (http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/b_download.php3)

its allready faster.

cheers!

Wigaru Wiyamoto
09-03-2002, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by PotatoHead
wow, neat phones! i really like that cartoon style render. and 1.5 minutes is pretty damn fast... cool.

but its expensive - almost the price of lw(which already has an incredible renderer - okay, it doesnt calculate dispersion, but that's about all that it lacks).:buttrock: :airguitar

Err, well, Brazil is practically free compared to Renderman or Mental Ray.

Viper
09-03-2002, 02:55 AM
Hey dudes. I rendered yesterday two images to compare GI in both Brazil and MAX 5. Here are the results:

http://realover.svinc.net/stuff/brazil.jpg
http://realover.svinc.net/stuff/max5.jpg

Both images were rendered in an Athlon 1300, with 256mb of RAM and a GeForce 2 64mb

I believe it's well worth buying Brazil if it's faster. And it's a complete (Almost anyway :)) renderer fully integrated with MAX and easy to use :)

censored
09-03-2002, 03:18 AM
and that scene would be likely even faster in Brazil 1.0.

Viper
09-03-2002, 03:33 AM
Exatcly :)

I plan to ask at work if they will buy it or not :)

Khepri
09-03-2002, 11:00 AM
hey Viper thats a cewl test, the only differences I see is in the aa sampling:bounce:



cewl rendering!

Viper
09-03-2002, 05:03 PM
You mean it's cool right? :)

Yeah, the AA from Brazil is extensively better then the one in MAX 5...

Bobo
09-03-2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by googlo

The only difference I see right now maybe is that Brazil plans on integrating some kind of shader language called Orchid in the future, is that why people are looking forward to Brazil more?



My 2 cents, no war! :)

All new max renderers have very similar feature lists.
What I like about Brazil is not the top of the iceberg (features), but the development concept. If you remember, Scott and Steve started developing an advanced version of the RayFX engine which ships with max since R2. At a certain point, they dropped the idea of RayFX2 and started from scratch. It was the best thing that could happen - taking all the experience (read - mistakes) made in the development of a production raytracer and creating a completely new modular, extensible architecture which does not carry over all of those mistakes. v1.0 is just the first step in an amazing future.

OTOH, I think Brazil has been developed for studio work (and a studio wouldn't think twice paying the price). Even if you are a freelancer, it would pay itself in a single job in few days. If you are a hobbyist though and money is an issue, VRay or FR would be a logical choice because of the price. I would personally prefer VRay, probably because I am Bulgarian, too ;)

Array
09-03-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by PotatoHead
wow, neat phones! i really like that cartoon style render. and 1.5 minutes is pretty damn fast... cool.

but its expensive - almost the price of lw(which already has an incredible renderer - okay, it doesnt calculate dispersion, but that's about all that it lacks).:buttrock: :airguitar

Ok, theres way too many things wrong with that statement. First of all, comparing lightwave and a renderer like brazil/mentalray/finalrender/vray is like comparing apples and oranges. The only similarity is that they take a scene as input, and return an image file. It ends there. As far as I know, Lightwave uses a hybrid radiosity/path tracing algorithm.

The rendering algorithms employed in photon mapping renderers(brazil/mentalray/finalrender/vray) give quite a bit more flexibility in terms of what kind of visual phenomena can be rendered. Without photon maps, one can not render sub surface scattering or volume caustics (things lightwave cant do). Plus, photon maps are pretty much as fast and error free as renderers these days get.

Second, NO commercial renderer can accurately render dispersion/diffraction. In fact, current renderers also can not do polarization and interferance. This is due to the fact that today's rendering technology only simulates the particle properties of light. In order to PROPERLY simulate the effects mentioned above, a renderer must implement wave based rendering.

Khepri
09-03-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Array
Without photon maps, one can not render sub surface scattering or volume caustics (things lightwave cant do).


first off:
Brazil does not render SSS thru Photonmaps at this time.
(no one except the programmers knows what kind of technique it is) all we know is that its not Photon mapping!

secondly:
You can use a bunch of semi-tranpsarent parallel planes to fake smoke, and let the caustics fall onto those to achieve volume caustics.

cheers!

beaker
09-03-2002, 09:25 PM
>>also its faster than scanline... wich is always good!

This is a pretty broad statement. It's probably faster than max's pure scanline rendering, but it's not faster than Prman. Prman is still atleast 2-3x faster than brazil, and also there is alot of production needed features that are still missing: Motion Blur and shadow maps, plus a couple other things.

>>well, 2 of these renders are not possible to do in scanline(the toon and the sss one)

Scanline renderers can do a toon shader fine with some form of nzid or gooch shader.

drewbie
09-03-2002, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by beaker
>>also its faster than scanline... wich is always good!

This is a pretty broad statement. It's probably faster than max's pure scanline rendering, but it's not faster than Prman. Prman is still atleast 2-3x faster than brazil, and also there is alot of production needed features that are still missing: Motion Blur and shadow maps, plus a couple other things.

You need to be clear on what you're talking about. Where is X faster than Y? I know that Brazil is faster than PRman in certain areas, but I'm sure PRman is faster in others. Everything has advantages.

Motion Blur and shadow maps work fine in Brazil. Now, 3D Motion Blur is another issue, and it is slated for a post-1.0 release.



Scanline renderers can do a toon shader fine with some form of nzid or gooch shader.

I'm not aware of any gooch shader for scanline. I know it's possible, but I don't think one exists atm.

Khepri
09-03-2002, 10:55 PM
Prman is still atleast 2-3x faster than brazil

ehm, do you know how fast it would be?

thats 2x as fast!

if I would have to render something wich takes an hour in Brazil, you honestly think it would take Prman 30 minutes, with the same results?

don't base your comments on the demo version of Brazil.

:shame:


and don't forget that Prman costs $8,000 usd for the full package!

Brazil costs $1,200 usd and you get 2 additional rendernodes with that.
so you could buy 6 brazil artist licenses(each with 2 extra render nodes) and a additional renderfarms bundle($750 usd), so you would be able to get 22 computers rendering for the same price as one Prman package!

not to mension the artist friendlyness of Brazil.

cheers!

P.S. oh, but since we are talking max and Brazil 1.0, you could have figured out that I was talking max scanline.

Array
09-03-2002, 11:07 PM
we're talking in terms of scanline. PRMan has a VERY efficient algorithm (REYES, which stands for Render Everything You Ever See) for culling out polygons. It's not too great for GI (GI algorithms need to sample polygons which are not directly in front of the view plane)....but it dramatically increases the speed of all scanline based renderings (including Toon Shading).

anim8r2
09-04-2002, 12:16 AM
Array,
Actually LW has one hell of an SSS and Volumetric Caustics Plugin called OGO_Hikari found here:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~pq1a-ogs/sss_e.html

(a lot of cool demo movies here)

It's practically free at 25 bux.

anim8r2
09-04-2002, 12:21 AM
(Whoops. I don't mean to push LW in this topic, so please don't take it that way. I was just responding to a previous response.) I just haven't used Brazil, so I don't have anything to add.

DotPainter
09-04-2002, 12:51 AM
I must say that Brazil is very impressive in the images I have seen so far. Unfortunately, not being a Max owner, I cannot vouch for the user friendlyness. Along with that, I have to question how open the architecture is if it only works with one application. If this program is to really be adopted into a studio's pipeline, wouldn't it need to support more than one app? Seems like it should be called a max alternate renderer rather than a truly stand alone renderer.

Otherwise, I think that the features in Brazil are somewhat cutting edge, but that is a slim edge at best. Renderers are becoming much more powerful everyday, both built in and stand alone and it is going to be hard, IMO, to really establish a feature set that is vastly more than the others. The only justification I can see at this point for a dedicated renderer is maybe speed and optimization, which by itself does not necessarily justify the cost, especially without a comprehensive set of benchmarks comparing times for various features/shaders, scenes and hardware. Even then, it still has to offer more than speed to be a viable force in the industry. Right now there are too many so called "stand alone" renderers seemingly vying for the same slice of max users, which may not be a great market segment dollar wise.

Array
09-04-2002, 01:06 AM
the Brazil R/S team is currently planning maya and standalone versions of Brazil. In fact, at one point, they had an anouncement on their employment site stating that they were looking for programmers to assist in a maya port and a standalone version. If the standalone version is as accessible as the renderman interface is, im definately going to put some $ down on it.

beaker
09-04-2002, 01:13 AM
The thing is any kind of translator takes atleast 2 years to create. It is no small job. Especially when the renderer was made especially for one app originally(3dsmax): MayaMan(2-3yrs), Maya to MR(4 years). I wouldn't start counting your Maya to Brazil chickens anytime soon.

censored
09-04-2002, 01:21 AM
well, brazil r/s was not made specifically for 3dsmax. it was psecifically designed with a completely open ended architecture (much more information on this is available at the website) with multi app support in mind.

3dsmax was its first home because the programmers are most familiar with max's sdk and capabilities and are at home with the community. it does not mean that brazil has any features that are psecifically tied into max's architecture.

Capt.Jackass
09-04-2002, 05:11 AM
i got one question, and sorry if it's been answered already. Is brazil RS 1.0 compatible with max 5?

Refracted
09-04-2002, 05:33 AM
yep

Khepri
09-04-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by beaker
The thing is any kind of translator takes atleast 2 years to create. It is no small job. Especially when the renderer was made especially for one app originally(3dsmax): MayaMan(2-3yrs), Maya to MR(4 years). I wouldn't start counting your Maya to Brazil chickens anytime soon.


that has many reasons, one of them is:

its never done by the company who developed the rendering system, there is always a 3rd party who creates the translator.
in this case, and as far as I know, Brazil will be made available to maya by Splutterfish!

Bobo
09-04-2002, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Capt.Jackass
i got one question, and sorry if it's been answered already. Is brazil RS 1.0 compatible with max 5?


During the whole development, Brazil has been available for both max 3 and 4. Now it is compatible with 5, too.
(This was easy to do mainly because the rendering system is a separate beast and only the translation part has to "talk" to max as far as I understand it).

treddicom
09-04-2002, 12:25 PM
I'm very glad CGTalk choose my pic to publicize the availability of Brazil 1.0 ... ;o)
If you want you can view all my pics at my site:
http://www.treddi.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album01&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

Thanks

D@ve

ZaonDude
09-13-2002, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by beaker
Prman is still atleast 2-3x faster than brazil, and also there is alot of production needed features that are still missing: Motion Blur and shadow maps, plus a couple other things.



Incorrect.

I really wish people would not carelessly spread disinformation like this, because many people come to these forums in order to learn.

The correct answer is that PRMan is 3-4x faster than anything when it comes to producing unbeatable 3d stochastic motion blur. PRMan, as a micropolygon renderer, also outputs NURBS and true SubDs at extreme speed-for-quality results. It also renders fantastic sub-pixel displacement (the best type of displacement by far) almost as if it weren't there (i.e., for a very minor performance hit over the non-displaced version of the mesh).

HOWEVER, Brazil is the fastest raytracer and GI renderer I have ever seen by a long shot, outputs outstanding quality (better than PRMan's shaders for achieving photorealism), is extraordinarily user friendly with the artist (not the programmer) in mind, and is simple to install and manage (unlike PRMan's nightmarish installations/management that requires a dedicated TD on staff unless you yourself speak Botchi).

That is also where both packages end for now, because until PRMan 11 is released at year's end with GI and raytracing there is quite simply no way to compare the two at all—at all, at all.

Furthermore, unless PRMan's architecture has been radically altered at the fundamental level to make way for optimized raytracing and GI, then PRMan's first-generation output of GI and raytracing is bound to be slower (not necessarily lower quality, but definitely slower) than Brazil's which was intelligently designed from the ground up with GI and raytracing as its primary focus—very likely making Brazil 2-3x faster than PRMan in these categories. Mind you, PRMan's architecture is still the most brilliant anywhere on the planet Earth, but it is also outdated and without due consideration given to GI and Raytracing because GI/raytracing was, up till now, too 'expensive' as far as render times go and so was not planned for PRMan at the time the RenderMan specification was developed.

So, before making statements such as "PRMan is 2-3x faster than Brazil", you need to be very careful about which area of rendering you are speaking about, and you need to purchase both in order to properly review the two (the public test of Brazil is waaaaaaay behind in speed and quality, and so not what you should use to compare).

Will Brazil ever implement 3d motion blur that is even close to as good as PRMan's?? Probably not. Will PRMan's GI and Raytracing ever be as fast and great as Brazil's? Doubtful in the short run, and if so not any time soon. What about true displacement? Don't know—nobody does. Same with other advanced features new to the market such as sub-surface scattering and the like—only time will tell.

I, for one, with the power of today's wintel hardware find an ultra-fast raytracer with ultrafast GI to be the wiser choice, though I do sometimes find myself missing that awesome displacement and motion blur of PRMan. The near future will prove very interesting for both renderers.

Good Times :buttrock:

Wigaru Wiyamoto
09-15-2002, 08:15 AM
Thanks for the insight, ZaonDude!

playmesumch00ns
09-16-2002, 12:57 PM
PRMan 11's GI/Raytracing will definitely be MUCH slower than Brazil's. As was said in the 3DFestival interview, it's only being included for the sake of future expansion; at the moment GI is too slow to be used in production.

Seriously, if you were at Pixar, and had just finished Monsters Inc, would you really care that you didn't have GI/SSS? I know for sure I wouldn't. I'd take Boo's bedroom over a room-full of raytraced/GI'ed/SSS'ed cubes/spheres/headphones (no offense meant) any day.

Having said that, Orchid could be interesting!

Viva RenderMan!

googlo
09-16-2002, 01:11 PM
They should care though. Just because they are big now doesn't mean they shouldn't expand the capabilities of the program.

SGI workstations didn't really keep up and look at what windows and linux systems are starting to do.

Occupying a niche is only good for awhile in my opinion. If you don't try to continually change and expand for the better, the niche can turn into a death trap. Right?

TorbjornO
09-16-2002, 04:14 PM
[i]PRMan 11's GI/Raytracing will definitely be MUCH slower than Brazil's. As was said in the 3DFestival interview, it's only being included for the sake of future expansion; at the moment GI is too slow to be used in production.

Seriously, if you were at Pixar, and had just finished Monsters Inc, would you really care that you didn't have GI/SSS? I know for sure I wouldn't. I'd take Boo's bedroom over a room-full of raytraced/GI'ed/SSS'ed cubes/spheres/headphones (no offense meant) any day. [/B]

Damn this argument is getting tiresome. First of all, your claim that GI is too slow to be used in production is a fallacy. It's just plain wrong and it's not an opinion, it's just not right. Because the simple fact is that GI HAS been used in production. Maybe you meant to say it's too slow to be used in feature films. Even then you would be wrong, because it has been used in feature films. So maybe you meant it's too slow for all CG feature films. Because that is the one area of the CG field where GI hasn't been used _yet_.

Though having said this, and I am repeating what others have said before, Brazil isn't a GI renderer. It's a renderer capable of GI. There are many strengths to Brazil other than its GI features.

Since your name is very anonymous I didn't word this as diplomatical as I could of had. In the end, these are just tools. There's no need to convince anyone of what's wrong and right, or that GI is "wrong" to use. Use what you feel works for you. I will base what tools I will use on a project per project basis. If I can use GI and still finish on time, then awesome. Another powerful tool in my belt.

Toby

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