Brazil r/s 1.0 released

[Das]

Seems an oddly unprofessional way to sell it. No online store, no distribution to resellers. You have to e-mail them your name and phone number.

Perhaps they're just doing it this way to get it 'out there' while they implement a real sales channel? Even so, considering how long it's been in development, you'd think they would've had plenty of time to set up a secure web store.

[drewbie]

Maybe they're holding off until Tuesday when they send out the official press release and update their site?

[KiboOst]

Originally posted by drewbie
Maybe they're holding off until Tuesday when they send out the official press release and update their site?

So why announcing it now ? Just to write "aout" and no "september" ? hummm


Kib

[Das]

Could be. I heard hints that they were promising to their alpha customers that it was coming out 'this month' earlier in August. Might have rushed it a bit to make the promise.

[Steve Green]

I don't think making the pre-sales beta users happy had anything to do with it. I bought the pre-sales beta a few months ago, and I wasn't particulary bothered whether it hit the revised August deadline or not since we were getting regular new builds.

- Steve

[drewbie]

Actually they made the announcement at Siggraph that they'd release in August, that hasn't been a secret. They've been squishing bugs for a while since all the features have been locked down. ( btw, Brazil's been out of alpha stage for a while. ;) )

[Das]

Yes, I know it was in late beta. For some reason, I'm thinking the early adopters have been called 'alpha customers'. Maybe I'm getting wires crossed.

If they announced August at Siggraph, that would explain the rushed feel to things.

[Steve Green]

Christ, they can't win, can they?

If it slipped a few days into September, you could guarantee that some berk on Maxunderground would start piping up how crap they are for missing a deadline again, and now people are complaining when they do ship it.

To be honest I don't care how it's sold or delivered, as long as the software is stable.

It could be delivered by carrier pigeon for all I care.

- Steve

[Das]

Seems an oddly unprofessional way to sell it. No online store, no distribution to resellers. You have to e-mail them your name and phone number

That wasn't a complaint, it was an observation. Discussion boards are for discussions, no? ;)

[drewbie]

I think the reason they used all the time they could in August was to make sure they still made the deadline they set, and to make sure that they knocked out as many bugs as possible, even some of the smaller ones that aren't that bad. Anyway, it's better that they waited and fixed as many as possible instead of throwing in all the features and then releasing it with more bugs.

[Steve Green]

Maybe I was overly sensitive to someone calling their method of selling Brazil 'unprofessional', it just seemed like someone lining up to snipe at a product that I've been very happy using, and delighted with the support I've got from Splutterfish.

I'm not trying to stomp on your right to have a discussion - the very nature of it requires people to respond - which is what I was doing.

Like I said, I rather they concentrate their effort on the software - I've bought many pieces of software with online sales/resellers/nice manuals - it in no way guarantees that there aren't going to be nasty bugs.

It's not like they sit in an ivory tower and don't respond to their customers.

- Steve

[Das]

I do hope they're planning to implement a 'real' sales system soon. I know a lot of people who won't take a company seriously selling a (very expensive) product by e-mail. Has a shareware special feel to it. Sorry, just the way I see it.


Also a bit inconvenient. I hate having to ask a salesman to call for my order information (which appears to be what they're doing here). I like being able to enter my CC# in a secure site, choose a shipping method by price, etc, and be done with it.

Waiting for a call and hoping it comes at a convenient time is a pain just short of the cable company's "we'll be there sometime between 8 and 5 - just sit and wait".


Regardless, I hope to actually get some impressions of the software now that they're shipping. Most of the artist sites I've seen that post Brazil images (using the pre-release) just have the images. Rarely is render time specified, and almost never do you hear the actual methodology involved in setting up a scene.

I'd love to see a real review of the product. A British magazine review of finalRender is what sold me on buying fR. With a fairly comprehensive review of Brazil, I might be convinced to change over ;)

[cptvideo]

Das,

SplutterFish does have a 'real' sales system - online store. Have had it, and all the current customers have been using it since early this year.

It's not uncommon to have to first make real contact with a company when dealing with high ticket items. All kinds of 'professional' companies have the same policy.

We get the info in advance so that in case there's a problem with the order we can get in contact with you. If I'm dropping this kind of money on a product, I expect to be able to be contacted by the company involved in the event of a problem rather than having to try and chase them down to get help.

As to your assumptions about the release date. We said we were releasing this month - we've busted our asses to deliver what I think is the most stable 1.0 product the max community's seen in a long long time - We locked the software and pounded on it with the testers until the end of the month. This wasn't any more rushed then any normal software release - in fact, it's less rushed in that *we* determined when it was going to be released - not some marketing department or stockholders.

You may want do some research - have something to back up your claims and assumptions. Find out what's going on - it's easy. It's not like anyone's keeping secrets.

Now that we have released a 1.0 product, there will be reviews. We just released it yesterday, so you may want to give people some time.

[cptvideo]

P.S. From the SplutterFish website - Purchase info page:

"You may purchase Brazil r/s online with Visa, Mastercard or American Express...."

[Das]

The site says: "To purchase Brazil r/s please email sales@splutterfish.com and provide the following information ...". I now note that it also says "Someone from our sales department will respond via email with directions to our secure SplutterFish online store", which I didn't see before. If it previously said that, I'm sorry I missed it. I assumed a salesperson would call and collect the CC# etc.

It still seems to me to be odd to have every single customer wait for a contact back from a sales agent. When I bought Max, I bought it from an authorized reseller, online, without having to basically ask the company for permission to buy it. Same for Mental Ray.

When I bought Lightwave, I bought it from Newtek's online store.

In no case did I have to e-mail the company and wait for a human response just to be able to access the online store. Those products cost quite a bit more than Brazil. It just seems a very odd way to do things, and it seems unprofessional in my opinion. It basically chases away impulse buyers (and some of us can consider $1200 to be an impulse purchase, rather than a "high ticket item").

As far as "get(ing) the info in advance so that in case there's a problem with the order we can get in contact with you", I provided contact information to my discreet reseller and to Newtek at the time of purchase. I don't see why the company needs this information before allowing the customer to purchase the product.

Basically, while you have the online store 'hidden' so that potential customers cannot access it by a link on your site, and instead have to ask for permission by e-mail, I'm going to hold the opinion that you don't have a 'real' sales system. You're forcibly limiting your sales volume for no apparent reason. It's not a sound marketing decision (again, in my opinion).

If I was mistaken in assuming that your odd sales method was caused by a 'rush to market', I opologize if this upset you. I consider message boards to be ideal places for idle speculation. "Why do you think XYZco did that? Probably because of xxx"; that kind of discussion seems quite normal on a CG board.

I'm certainly not going to "do some research - have something to back up (my) claims and assumptions" for a casual conversation, any more than I'd do serious political research to have a discussion about George Bush's latest speech around the soda machine at work.

Lastly, you seem to have misread my comment about reviews. Your "there will be reviews. We just released it yesterday, so you may want to give people some time" comment seemed a (slightly snide) dig that I'm demanding things faster than reasonable.

The meaning I intended was that I'm glad the product is shipping, so there will be user reports and product reviews to read. I was expressing frustration that there is very little information (that I've been able to find) about the actual controls and workflow of Brazil on artist sites. Usually just images presented as 'here, lookie, pretty'. I really am interested in the product, and might consider buying it before the November price guarantee expires.

Although the odd sales system might put me off.

[cptvideo]

If we were discreet or newtek we would probably do things that way too - the luxury we have in having our own company is that we can do this the way we think is right. SplutterFish is a non-traditional company in a lot of ways - we're honestly in this because we love 3D, rendering technology, production work, etc. The things that matter to us are not the things you're bringing up here - online stores don't produce better images. If you're more comfortable with the methods of larger corporations, I totally respect that and consider that a perfectly valid reason for you to make the decisions you make.

If I go down the list of truly professional tools that I use, I would bet I've had to contact the company in at least half the cases. I've never had any problem with it. You're the first person to even complain about something like this. We're in the business of writing and selling a production tool. We're confident we can do the best job of that by having a certain relationship with our clients. That relationship starts with an email exchange. We aren't making the decisions we make based on what others do - but on what we know is the best way to go.

So, you're admittedly not going to make any attempt to find out if your assumptions and opinions have any basis in fact. Cool. So be it. How about you post them that way. Rather than stating, as if it's fact, that in order to purchase Brazil, you need to "ask for permission by e-mail," you actually pose the questions as, "Why do you think XYZco did that?" - that's kind of the problem and I have to reply and say, Das is wrong here, and wrong here, and wrong here, and then you get all offended because your opinions are being called into question. Contacing a sales department has nothing to do with getting permission - where are you getting this?

... and lastly... You seem to have misread my comment about reviews :) - Sorry, I meant no slight and didn't intend to be snide at all. Just wanted to say that they will be happening.

[Das]

I think perhaps we're misreading emotional context here. I'm not offended, I'm just stating my reasoning where you've brought points into question.

Rather than stating, as if it's fact, that in order to purchase Brazil, you need to "ask for permission by e-mail," you actually pose the questions as, "Why do you think XYZco did that?"

I don't agree with your interpretation here. I clearly stated what the Splutterfish site said (and even quoted it). I wasn't misrepresenting what Splutterfish said, I was stating my opinion of the policy.

"To purchase Brazil r/s please email sales@splutterfish.com ... Someone from our sales department will respond via email with directions to our secure SplutterFish online store". I put that right at the top of my post to show what I was going to be talking about. I then went on to state my impression of that policy. The quote clearly says that I can't use the online store until someone from sales gives me access. I consider that asking for permission by e-mail to access the store, and said so. I wasn't trying to say that those were Splutterfish's words, or I wouldn't have included the exact wording from Splutterfish to show what I was talking about.

So, you're admittedly not going to make any attempt to find out if your assumptions and opinions have any basis in fact. Cool. So be it. How about you post them that way.

I was referring to my guesses that a rush-to-market might be the cause for the sales-by-mail, and I did state them that way ("Might have rushed it a bit to make the promise", lots of other statements with "Maybe", "Perhaps", etc.)

If I've stated any opinions as fact (and I don't see where I have, re-reading the thread now), I apologize. I do try to be careful about that. That's why I put in so many quotes and such.

I did make the one erroneous statement ("No online store, no distribution to resellers") based on my first visit to the "to order Brazil, click here" link, but I said in my last post that that was an error on my part (and apologized - "I'm sorry I missed it"). Since there wasn't a link to an online store, I assumed that there wasn't one.

Again, I'd like to re-iterate that I'm not an 'enemy of Brazil'. I certainly respect the product. I used the Ghost alpha and several of the Brazil alphas, but I decided I didn't want to commit my time to projects that could be shut down by forces beyond my control (if the time-lock ran out and Splutterfish failed to update it). If the reviews and user critiques are positive I might buy it in a month or two (bought fR and ZBrush in August, going to try to restrain my impulse buys for a month or two).

[kdub]

I hate to be the person behind the main guy that just shouts "yeah!" after the main guy is finished talking but i wanted to share a word. I have been following brazil now since it was ghost, before that even. If my memory serves me well, these guys were cranking out RayFX way back, which is when i first started using their stuff.

That brings up another thing. This is no large, medium or even small company, this is four people, with some help, but still four people. To put together an online store may not always be the best option (even though they have). I have gone throught the process myself and it is one with many unanswered questions that leave one saying, "I hope this works" and when it comes to spending $1200, thats no simple question. Also international sales, which a large part of them may be, are not so simple to set up especially when they are so busy trying to put out the software it the first place. Also this is software, purely digital no physical substance, going thru a middle man for sales equals cost, a big cost they probably don't want, so offers to re-sellers might not be the best option for XYZco.

You also mention a lack of documentation on workflow, and other things that involve use. I find no better support than the fact that you can dowload the software itself and try it out. While it's feature set may not be complete it give one an excellent idea of what is going on.

I know this is not entirely my business here, but the only reason i felt it necessary to respond was that, for the whole time i have been using this software, with no contribution on my part, i have been welcomed to information, free software and an irc room that is welcoming and will never deny you the information you need to use the software to it's fullest extent. Why possibly would you want to make strangers to this (splutterfish's) community feel like they shouldn't look at it's products becasue of the purchasing process that you deem unprofessional. This is one of those concerns you e-mail splutterfish, not tell the whole world. This is their job, if you put off just one customer, that's alot of money that they may need, this is not someones image that you critique.

Das, if an online purchsing system that is not up to your standards makes you second guess a software package of which there are so few and none of equal quality and value, then you should also question your need for a new renderer at all.

Just my opinion - of course :)

[Das]

Some valid points. I hope you don't mind if I address them in sequence (some people consider that 'picking apart' a post, but I don't intend it that way).

I didn't realize Splutterfish was still four people. I assumed they started the $1200 pre-release to raise funds to complete the product, and kind of assumed they'd started a small company by now. Releasing a major renderer with a crew of four is pretty daunting.

That does kind of make my point for me, in a way. I was saying the whole setup seemed unprofessional because it felt 'shareware-ish'. The reason shareware setups 'feel' the way they do is that a very few people are trying to sell something they believe in, but they don't actually have a company to back them up. Just a few guys who handle orders through e-mail to keep control of things. From what you're saying, that's just what Splutterfish is, except the product is higher-ticket.

In my opinion, they would've been better served by hiring a company to do the online sales. There are companies that do nothing else, and are more than capable of handling the tricky issues (such as the international sales issues you mentioned). They eat into profits a bit, but it can't be that bad.

ZBrush uses a company for their online sales, and their product is only $300 or so. Actually, ZBrush is a good example of my point. They seemed small but not shareware-ish. It was obviously a small group (might even be one guy, I don't know), but the online ordering was quick and painless. Obviously 3rd party, but still easy to get to.

As far as the anti-piracy points, I doubt the contact-before-you-buy system will slow those bastards down. Good software is pirated quickly no matter what measures are taken.

On to the next point. As far as downloading the product to answer all my questions about the workflow etc., the downloadable version includes very little beyond what was in the older timelocked versions. The features that I would want to know about before a purchase are the big guns, photon mapping, SSS, HDRI illumination, etc. These are the features I've had problems with in other packages and are the make-or-break features for Brazil (to me, obviously).

I'd like to reiterate that I was expressing eagerness toward the first reviews because I'm excited about the product. I want to see what it can do, and how (a factor that's been lacking in the artist sites that I've been following).

Why possibly would you want to make strangers to this (splutterfish's) community feel like they shouldn't look at it's products becasue of the purchasing process that you deem unprofessional. This is one of those concerns you e-mail splutterfish, not tell the whole world. This is their job, if you put off just one customer, that's alot of money that they may need, this is not someones image that you critique

This quote worries me. If I've given the impression that someone actually shouldn't buy the product becuase of the ordering system, I do apologize. I can't imagine anyone actually coming to that conclusion, though.

I mean, seriously:
"Wow! Look at all that Brazil can do! I can certainly afford to drop $1200 on it! Oh, wait, Das thinks the ordering system is unprofessional; lets order something else instead". I don't see it happening.

Lastly:
Das, if an online purchsing system that is not up to your standards makes you second guess a software package of which there are so few and none of equal quality and value, then you should also question your need for a new renderer at all
I'm not second-guessing the software package. I'm second-guessing the ordering system. My main critique is that it reduces sales volume for no reason I can see. Things I find illogical bug me.

Regardless, the sales system has nothing to do with the software package itself. If the software does what I want it to do, I'll buy it using a sales system I don't like. From all reports, Brazil is definitely a top-notch renderer. I just want to wait for the reviews to see if it's that much better than fR (especially stage-1, which I'll be getting as a free upgrade).

Keep in mind that my original gripe was when I was under the assumption that the procedure was:
- e-mail Splutterfish
- wait for a salesperson to call and get my CC# etc.
- get irritated when the salesperson keeps missing me at my desk

As I read it now, the procedure seems to be:
- e-mail Splutterfish
- wait for Splutterfish to e-mail the 'keys' to the online store (the how to access instructions)
- order at leisure

You can see why I disliked the first. The second isn't bad, it just seems odd (still). It just bugs me that they seem to be reducing sales volume by limiting access to the store. A basic principle of sales sites is that you make it easy to order the product. Look at Amazon or DVDirect. The 'store' button is on every single page.

Also just my opinion, of course :)

P.S. If there is actually anyone so gullible as to be holding off ordering Brazil due to my comments, for heaven's sake don't. Go look at the images, read the features, and order it if you want it. Like I seaid a paragraph or so ago, my main concerns were based on a flawed assumption.

[drewbie]

Originally posted by Das
It just bugs me that they seem to be reducing sales volume by limiting access to the store. A basic principle of sales sites is that you make it easy to order the product.

Just to make a comparison and maybe a point....

Go to Pixar's site to order Renderman. The only thing you're going to see is an email address. I'm not even sure they have an online store. This is another 'top dollar' product, which is in very broad use, as we all know. This lack of a visible online store apparently isn't hurting their sales or troubling their customers that much.

[Das]

True, but RenderMan is an established industry standard, many major studios are totally dependant on RenderMan-based renderfarms, and so they hardly have to worry about drawing customers. I mean, it's Renderman ;)

They're also almost all corporate sales, so almost all purchases are made by corporate purchasing departments. Don't have to worry about convenience, since purchasing isn't going to go to the decision makers and say "I don't want to order RenderMan, it's inconvenient". Brazil is priced to be affordable to a lot of the hobby/freelance market, where the decision maker is the purchaser.

Still, it is their choice. It bugs me that they're (imo) needlessly restricting sales, but it shouldn't bother them that I feel that way. I'm just some guy on a message board, after all ;)

[censored]

If someone is going to spend $1200/$1500, do you honestly think that having to email someone is going to deter that person? He/she might have to wait a day (personal experience may vary (tm), not an official statement of SplutterFish LLC etc etc :)) but thats really not very long, and if you needed it *that* fast there are other ways of contact.

Oh my! One might have to deal with a...human?

[Das]

From studies I've heard of, often quoted in web design courses, one more click can turn away a borderline purchaser (of course, that could be partially hype - web design courses like to exaggerate the importance of web design) ;)

I'm not talking the guys who've carefully considered the merits of the application and decided it's needed to be competitive. I'm talking the smaller percentage of purchasers who 'work themselves up to it'. The kind of person who, while browsing the site, barely decides to make the purchase amidst thoughts like "damn, that's a sweet renderer .. but I really shouldn't, it's really expensive .. but think of the stuff I could do .. no, I've spent too much lately", etc.

I myself put off the upgrade to Max 3 from 2.5 because DVDirect couldn't sell it any more and I had the incremental hassle of finding an authorized reseller. Delayed the purchase (about $900, I think) because I got as far as the purchase page at DVDirect and hit a notice that they couldn't sell to me unless I was in one of four states (I wasn't). It was a whim purchase, and the setback let me convince myself I should put off the purchase for a while. I ended up buying the upgrade, but I think I put it off about 6 months.

I'm not saying the practice is going to cut sales in half, but I can easily see losing a small percentage of borderline sales.

[Dougy]

Personally I think most of you are giving Das an unfair grilling. I'm finding his arguments well reasoned and thought out. I don't read his comments as 'having a go' at Brazil or Splutterfish. Discussion is what a forum is for isn't it?

I too find the method of purchasing on their web site off-putting. If they have an online store why not post the link?.

What I do find interesting is the (official?) Splutterfish responses from cptvideo.

Just my 2 cents ;)

[googlo]

Das does have a point though. I was curious about that too. It is just odd to order that way, it gave me the feeling that things haven't gotten up-to-par yet or something. I'm not trying to make Brazil look bad at all, it just did catch my attention too.

Like before Boxx had a online configuration system for a pc, you had to email them for a price request, then they email you back with someone who wants to talk to you, and suddenly I feel like I'im in a car lot with salesmen. The same thing happened when I was just curious about XSI and what was available with a local reseller, I started to feel like I was obligated to purchase, it made me feel somewhat uncomfortable, I like to be able 'transparentally' purchase things quickly and efficiently and only have to call if I need too.

It's like www.nextlimit.com's website for ordering RealFlow/RealWAve etc.. Not being able to order online gives me an odd sensation of lack of security or something, it's just really wierd, I can't explain it. Having to wire money in or send a check or whatever just makes me feel uncomfortable in the electronic age when most things can be order through an online system with a credit cared, ironically enough.


But aside from that.

What I would really like to see on Brazil's site is a much more exhaustive info list about what features the program has and how they are implimented with at least one picture for demonstration purposes showcasing that feature. Right not it's more like a quickie brochure. For example, just listing that it has volume lights isn't enough when another company like Cebas advertises volume lights in their product with detailed descriptions of what it's capable of doing and how, with nice pictures too.

Right now I'm debating between whether I should purchase FinalRender or Brazil in the next several months. I wish I could have as detailed a descriptoin and feature list for Brazil on their site or even for download as what I can get off of the Finalrender site. I mean right now, the public version isn't enough in my opinion, it just showcases what every major renderer can do really and it's not even really representative of the commercial version.

1,500 dollars is a lot of money for me compared to 750 and having to decide between one software that has tons of acclaim without a real exhaustive feature list for me to look at isn't enough honestly when I know what I will be getting in another product that has a very descriptive resource/feature list about what it can do and why online, besides having good acclaim.

I swear I'm not trying to be negative here, just communicating how I've felt.

Right now, Brazil has a more "only insiders really know what I can do. You'll now what your getting, once you've bought me!" while FinalRender is more like "Hey guys, buy me, see this is what I can do and why I do it well!"

[mlykke]

Still... there is no demo/test version of Final Render so how can you really compair? Like how would you compair Mental Ray for 3dmax, Renderman? Atleast with the pub test you can try Brazil out and see if you like the workflow. See if it suits you.

There are alot of things you can not tell from a website.

But Splutterfish already said that they would update the site. Lets wait and see what they will put up.

And about shopping site.... Is it REALLY that important if its a 1 click buy like you can on amazon? Spluttefish might do it this way to get in contact with their users in a way so they feel more close to the company.

I think people are making too big a problem out of this. You don't go to the local supermarket and say: "No... I will only buy a 4 apples from you if you put on a blue shirt instead of that ugly green one."

And who knows, maybe the shopping site is going to change.

Take it easy. :)

[Reality3D]

What I do find interesting is the (official?) Splutterfish responses from cptvideo.

From what i know, is Scott Kirvan in person

[Dougy]

From what i know, is Scott Kirvan in person [/B]

Then maybe he should 'listen' to possible customers? :shrug:

[ErickG]

Wow! so much yack about the website, etc. The real topic is the release of the software.

I bought the prerelease. I think the product RULES!!!! I also have a graveyard of other software (2 final render, 2 Entropy) which I spent far more money on and could not get the pipline working for production and I tried (many late nights and e-mails to the respective companies)

I used Brazil for production while it was in beta and it was rock solid. I can't say enough about it. The people at Splutterfish are true professionals who know production and while they may be small, they are mighty. I have never gotten better tech support from any other software company and I have lots of software in my studio. The on-line LIVE support is very professional. Every time I log-in I get instant help.

So hats off to geting 1.0 out there.

-Erick Geisler

[tmoney]

I too was a Brazil pre-release customer. I found the ordering process simple and I enjoyed the personal service of actually having a email conversation with someone before turning over the loot.

I agree with erick the support has been incredible. Connie the gentlemen who takes the orders has been extremely responsive and helpful.

Ohhhh I almost forgot BRAZIL ROCKS!!!:thumbsup:

--Tim

[mlykke]

Actually..... Connie is a female. :) Which just makes it even cooler :))

[tmoney]

Oooops now I'm embarassed:rolleyes:....OK SHE Rocks!!

[BrandonD]

Hehe...Connie is Scott's wife, and quite a cool gal I might add. She can also code assembly like it's no one's business.

[dpotter]

>She can also code assembly like it's no one's business.

Let's not forget drink guinness like no one's business as well :)

:beer:
Dagan

[Refracted]

and has the coolest typing cat in the world

go sean!

:)

[censored]

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:thumbsup:

[Neil_Campbell]

I'm waiting for an answer from Splutterfish, but in the meantime maybe someone here with the full install can answer ...

How is Brazil "shipped". Physically with a hardware key, or electronic download with a software key?

Thx
Neil

[Neil_Campbell]

Okay, I got the answer from Connie - it's all electronic, so nice fast turnaround, and no UK customs duties to pay either :-)

[ZeBoxx]

Welcome aboard :)

If You're ever looking for a super-speedy reply, try :
http://irc.splutterfish.com/index.php3

If You're familiar with IRC already, You can connect with this information :

Server : irc.splutterfish.com
Port : 5999
Channel : #Brazil_r/s

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