Lady Frances Drake, Aly Fell (2D)

[EdHarriss]

- Very nice work. I always liked Zeppelins.
- Reminds me of Sky Captain.
- I only wish the image was a little higher res.

[berniebernie]

same thing about the hires quality, other than that it looks excellent.. (it's just it troubles me that she's got the german luftwaffe sign on her necklace and a different armband that the nazis wore... )

[Cadinho]

:eek:

BEAUTIFUL!!! I love the style and the attention given to the smallest details!!
Nice!! :bounce:

[Kyena]

You know what I think of this :)
I still can't get over how wonderful the clothes are done

[Goro]

Beautiful! :thumbsup: The material of her clothes look amazing!

[rbf229]

Amazing work! That outfit has got to be the most original and well designed I've ever seen. Superb detail and very creative concept. Keep it up!:)

[Belltann]

You have done a really good job there. The leather texture and the sword is extrodinary. :thumbsup:
Im looking forward for some more and welcome to CGtalk. :)

[OZ]

YA SMASH!cool work!

[PixelRod]

I've seen this before. It still looks good. Good Job

[Wilson-3d]

One of my all time favs on the front page. I love the face and the shine on the boots. The knee kind of looks like it has a dent in it to me. Great piece.

[noelt]

That's awfully good, it looks perfect, love the leather, i would love to paint something like this, it's definately 5stars, Was there any 3D software assistance? i mean the boots just look too good. How old are you? One crit....i just noticed, the line separating the fur from the leather in the cape is not working compared to the rest of the piece, there should be some fur covering the lines i think. :bounce:

[MattDixon]

Brilliant work, old bean.

[J.K.Makowka]

I am not really into that lether girl stuff :p But this is a brilliant character design and a near perfect drawing of it.

[niki]

wow ..really cool .. I like her cloth ...and she is very sexy..
can you post a face close-up?
thx in adv

[???]

WOW ! your miss hitler rocks !

[Nickii]

DAmn that leather looks great!! KUDOS!!!

[AlyFell]

Kyena - Thanks, again! And thanks folks for the welcome here. I've been around for ages, but this is my first post. I know it's familiar to some... but this is after my alterations to it.

noelt - no 3D software assistance, and you are quite right about the fur. It was the only bit of the pic I did in Painter (the first time I used it), and I didn't tie it up with the cape too well...

niki - I'll try and sort out a face close up. :)

Thankyou!

[Fbomb]

CRASS!!! great work man

[AndyH]

Absoloutlely brilliant work!
I dont normally praise frontpage posts much, but i felt i had to with this one!
Really nice pose, designs and excellent rendering. My only complaints are that there are perhaps too many airships in the background, and it could use some atmosphere like clouds, mist, sunlight, focus blur etc. It looks a tiny bit flat right now.

Great work either way!

Any chance of a huge res version?

Where do you work by the way, i noticed you come from derby. Not Circle studios by any chance?

[resurepus]

outstanding work. Nothing to add to the previous speakers :)

Just one question: where can we find a step-by-step history of this painting?

[Kid-Mesh]

Man do I want to get to know this girl...this piece is delicious.:love:


KidMesh

[tlggungor]

very good image but ı dont lıke zepplins because ıt s too static :thumbsup:


My 2D CHALLENGE COncepts & CİTY:buttrock:

[HenningK]

Yeee-ouch. Does the altered nazi-swastika mean anything in elizabethan England?
(take andyH's advice)
-hen

[SOuLjA`-]

she is very hot :love:, great work!

[Tidus_44]

great job i really like it

[amoe]

nice one.

i d like to crit her arm (the one with the sword). somehow it looks like it s broken. at least i can t bend my wrist like that.

but thats about it ;)

cheers
amoe

[ace4016]

That is one sexy lady, even if she is wih the nazis. Great work poshspice, got a hi-res version?

[zenigeva]

absolutely stunning work

[AlyFell]

Andy H - No not Circle... but I used to work for a very close relative. ;) Lol! Too many
airships. Before I altered the pic, I felt there weren't enough, so I added
some... Doh!

resurepus - If I can I'll sort something out, but I usually start with a
scanned pencil sketch or rough one out in PS of a pose and vague BG. Block
in colour, and then work from the face outwards.

HenningK - I didn't want to use obvious Nazi imagery, so to fit in with the
Elizabethan theme, I changed the Swastika into a stylised Tudor Rose,
replaced the eagle with a British lion and added ER for Elizabeth Regina on
her collar and on the airships.

amoe - I used my own arm as reference, maybe I'm double jointed...

Head close up:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/Pointyteeth/HeadDetail.jpg
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/Pointyteeth/HeadDetail.jpg)

[ElectroLux]

Heheh... Black leather nazi babe. Classic stuff.

Remeinds me of 70's b-movies or Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

[agflash]

Ok, first of all it's a nice work. thumbs up
I'm just confused 'bout the lightwork, it's not harmonic imho. Backlight and frontlight plays against each other. the backlight seems to be much stronger that the frontlight('cause of the shadow), but the character says in oposite the stronger light comes from the front.
So my forst thoughts were "copy-paste"-technique, means "first the character then the BG".
Maybe i'm wrong but i think i'd like it more without the BG. (sorry^_^; )
Anyway keep it up.

[krazeyhorse]

Great artwork ! Is this for a fantasy story, with the alternate universe?

[Shin Tsuki]

Hey, great job on this one. I personally think it needs little alteration. Andy_H is right about the focus, though. There are some parts (like the little design on her choker) that should probably be a bit less in focus. As for the other suggestions, i can bend my wrist like that too, and the number of zepplins doesn't bother me. It gives me the impression that the fleet is massing for a major operation. The backlight, vs. frontlight doesn't bother me either, though I can see where that crit's coming from. all in all, excellent work.

[mushroomgod]

very cool idea, and very well done :)

[loocas]

You just got a new fan dude :scream: This sorta Nazi-ish style thingy is my personal favourite, I mean in general... very beautiful... Without wasting any more words http://www.cgtalk.com/images/rating/rating_5.gif from me :thumbsup:

[Ollarin]

Awesome work! Remind me of Sky captain too! :D

Great work man!

[Terkonn]

Wow, very good job, especially on her face. A very sexy, but stubern expretion. On of the best 2D's I've seen in a long time!- :thumbsup:

[case56]

Very very beautiful work :)
reminds me of a girl i knew at high school :love:
terrific attention to detail
keep it up babe

P.S. did you use a tablet?

man I want a tablet.

[Katss]

Sexy beautiful.very well done.really cool too.here are some more thoughts.:love: :buttrock: :applause:

[kylda]

Great work!!Cool pose and sexy!The specular of cloth is so nice!One thing i can mention is the knee looks a little strange.

[Majoron2003]

Very NIce!

[sumpm1]

She is beautiful my friend. Scampy dressed military brauds are the bomb. How long did the image take you?

[mimo8]

technicaly beautiful work.

I am a bit astonished bout the swastica thing and by the "positive" reaction of some people.

asked myself how this would look like, using the real hakenkreuz.
this would have given a lot of rumor, for sure.

This sorta Nazi-ish style thingy is my personal favourite, I mean in general... very beautiful... Without wasting any more words

one allways could argument that also the NS regime had its esthetical charm
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/gr103890/index.jpg
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/ba007228/index.jpg

by the way, I am austrian. think we were taught to handle this kind of things very carefully, perhaps thats what makes me wonder.

[Jameslsy]

Cool Costume she's wearing.

[Decadence]

I've always had a thing for Nazi SS styled uniforms and gorgeous women. I love the way you put a spin on the uniform. Excellent work~!

[Sunbane]

(it's just it troubles me that she's got the german luftwaffe sign on her necklace and a different armband that the nazis wore... )
I believe that's an "Iron cross", and it could be awarded to just about any kind of soldier, not just luftwaffe personnel. But that's beside the point.

I can see how the motif with all its fascist/nazi symbolism can make people cringe, but it's an interesting take on an alternetive timeline.

Absolutely stunning art. Stunning. =)

[safakoner]

is she SS ? :) I saw a skull on her hat. Super Job :applause:

[Arctis]

Hi,
I agree that the pict is well rendered, but I feel it's really indecent to present nazi's uniform as nice fashion, that suit well to a nice aryan blonde girl....
Many people in the 30's said "heil Hitler" because all these nazi's parades of that time (1936, Nuremberg...) represents "the Great Germany", with its nice suits, its fierce eagles above their banners. They also massacred jews, homosexuals, tziganes...:eek::eek::eek:
You could have introduce a crit of that imagery, but NO! It's just for fun!:rolleyes:
Don't you have any sense of historical responsabilities ? Are you proud to have reactions such as "I've always had a thing for Nazi SS styled uniforms(...)" (Decadence, nice name...)
I am shocked that there is so few crits about the symbols you are using! Maybe you, guys, need another genocide to understand that there are things to take seriously.
All I said is twice valid for the moderator that put it on the frontpage !:twisted:

PS : next time make a pict on BenLaden, just for fun of course...
Linked picture : the liberation of Dachau, a death camp.

[Bigpet]

Yeah Arctis you got some points.
If this pic was posted in a german forum there would have been no discussion about what those signs mean and nobody would have said that they think nazi uniforms are sexy. There are only very few people in germany who still sypathisze with the Nazi's . Most people would even swear at poeple saying "I've always had a thing for Nazi SS styled uniforms(...)" .
But all other nations don't care if someone of their nartion gives such comments.

I mean the Picture is great but shouldn't you stop talking about nazis being great in any way
I am from germany but I agree fully with Arctis and everyone I know also would.

[AlyFell]

OK. So I take it you don't like it then... I am sorry you are offended, but please keep a sense of perspective. I will re-iterate my previous comments. This an alternate history. The period it is set in is 1588, 350 years before the Nazis. The imagery is DRAWN on the Nazis because the look has become an archetype, and I imagined an alternative world where an Elizabethan superpower which was right wing was setting forth to battle the Armada. This is pretend! The Nazis were abhorrent and obcene, however popular culture has drawn on their imagery (uniforms by Hugo Boss), since the end of the Second World War. And a piece of fiction, as this is, has NOTHING to do with Germany or the Nazis. Please follow this post up with one complaing to the makers or 'Dangergirl', 'Hellboy', 'Raiders of the Lost Ark', 'Star Wars', 'Sky Captain' and 'Ian McKellerns 'Richard III' if this picture genuinely offends, because they are as guilty as I.

[Arctis]

You're right Bigpet. Germany has been traumatized by this period, so I really believe you when you say there's not much sympathy for nazis left...
Your reaction shows that there is a real hope for a better future, and I thank you for that.
Finally the danger comes from other countries, England for ex, with PoshPice, who should talk with his grandparents about germans bombing London...
"Great Britain, like Carthago, will be destroyed."(a nazi dignitary...)

[Arctis]

A little response to Poshpice :
You said for example that StarWars and Raider of the lost Ark are as guilty as you. Well I disagree, because Nazi - or dark side of the force- are CLEARLY presented as evil, and punished at the end...
Well you posted a whole text about the context just now, but there was no clear explanation at all until I wrote you ! Are we supposed to guess ? Am I wrong, but there's no link toward where we can read you story.
I can't believe that you dare to say that there is nothing to do with Nazis! The silver skull on a black german cap, the leather, the shoulder-strap white and red !!!
I don't think you're a nazi, I'm not that naive, but maybe you are a bit shizophrenic : your text and your pict don't speak the same langage. In your (recently posted...)explanation, you said nazis are bad, but in your pict you don't ! Without text, your pict said : I like gorgeous arian blonde girl wearing nice SS suit, and observing an attack. No bad faith about it, please!:twisted:

[mimo8]

happy to see some more critical opinions.

Poshspics:
I can imagine that it is hard to get hard critique on a piece that you must have worked on for a good time. But the whole story abbout an alternative history doestn exculpate the usage of nazi or even nazi-like symbols.
I think that we as artists are not only responsible of the thechincal side of our work, and your explanation shows that you are not unconsions of this side, as you quote certain history facts and made them your concept.

what I really do not understand is why you come up with 1588. The Montoglfier brothers started there first experiments arround 1785 ... so I dont get the zeppelins in the backround and how they fit in a image showing an alternative history version playing in 1588.

It is a critical discussion here and I see where you point at when you refer to Star Wars (Darth Wador has a very NS appearance) or other movies that use this archetype.
I perhaps wouldnt have replied critically on this thread, if your explanantion of the concept would be more profound, and if there would not have been some "decadent" other members, posting their ignorant and perhaps even pro-nationalistic comments.


My conclusion is, that you were ether a bit unaware of the power of the symbols you are playing with here, or (what I do not presume) you play with this images consciously, out of a certain affection for the ideologies related.

Both ways lack a ignorance of history.


Also I suggest CGtalk to take this image off fontpage ...
how did it get there anyhow ???

[AlyFell]

Hi Arctis,

I am truly sorry you have been offended by this picture, but you assume a little too much about me. It concerns me that you can't see this as a work of fiction, a concept, and divorce it from the reality of the Nazis. This is set at a time before the Nazis, 1588, and uses that imagery as inspiration for the aesthetic, not the morality or philosophy. It is a concept, pure and simple!

I won't go into my personal history, particularly in respect of my grandparents, who you bring up, whose experiences fighting Hitler I am well familiar with. As I am with the history of Hitlers Germany. The danger, as you put it does not come from people like me, but from governments and indivuals that allow ignorance and stupidity to foster.

I didn't post a pre-defence of the picture as I don't really feel as an image or a concept it needs one. As I have said before, I changed the iconography to express the theme of the picture that was done as part of a challenge on another site.

Darth Vader - clearly presented as evil? I think his character is probably one of the most ambiguous of all! I use those films as examples because they draw on the imagery, maybe more subtley, but that is all I have done. Lucas drew on totalinarianism to caricature the Imperial Forces, as have countless artists and writers. It is also patronising to the viewer to have clearly defined areas of black and white, good and evil. Do they need spelling out beforehand? But a closer comparison would be 'Richard III', where Ian McKellern sets the Shakespearean play in fascist 1930's England.

I feel you just want to catch me out somehow. Admit that somehow I glamourise Nazis. And you accuse me of being schizophrenic. Perhaps it is more schizophrenic to be unable to distinguish reality from something set in an impossible world.

So it's a girl! I like drawing girls! Would you have been more or less offended if I'd portrayed a man, a robot or a chicken as the protaginist?


mimo8 - 1588 was the year of the Armada. When the Spanish fleet attacked England and Sir Francis Drake was playing bowls before setting out to meet them. And her costume is Elizabethan. It is not meant to be an accurate portrayal of an historical event, hence the existance of airships.

You are now insinuating I might have sympathies for 'the ideoligies involved. What ideoligies would that be. Tudor/Elizabethan totalinarianism, because that's what the picture represents.

I don't wish to offend anybody. This is my first post here, and I hope to show many more. I chose this because it represents my current style, and is more representative of the way I now work.

[Bigpet]

I think you got me wrong. I said the picture is great.
I just criticized the comments like "WOW ! your miss hitler rocks !"
I mean you post the pic and some are going like: I always liked nazis and hitler
just exaggerated a little bit but that just looks as if some guys think like that

[Kyena]

Great answer Poshspice :)

I had a whole essay written out but I decided not to add to the pot - since after all this is an art forum.

Either way I still want to say this:

"Finally the danger comes from other countries, England for ex, with PoshPice, who should talk with his grandparents about germans bombing London...
"Great Britain, like Carthago, will be destroyed."(a nazi dignitary...)"

You are talking about the responsability of paintings..yet you just make an assumption over a whole country and call a person names and insults yet you don't even know anything about that persons background. Should make you think a bit.

Once more - sorry to add to the discussion which should probably just be left alone but I couldn't help.

[flingster]

ART...don't you just love a debate about acceptibilities and responsibilities!

nice lighting...nice materials...nice implementation of the subject and its setting...nice concept mix/spin on drake and facism and spin on female subject...like it. whats funny about it is no one mentioned the armada's effects on people lives/deaths....but then i don't want a history lesson either. not interested in a debate on ethics on an art forum at the end of the day...its something for general discussion threads..but everyones entitled to an opinion and thats the cool part of cgtalk.

good work is good work at the end of the day...and this is talent whichever way you look at it...whether you like the subject matter or its rendition of a theme is all for debate i guess.

keep up the good work...:thumbsup:

[henningsen]

I absolutely love this painting!
Too bad that some people starts naging about stuff that does not belong on these forums. It´s all about the art if you ask me.

Keep this up, I absolutely love your style! :-)

[Bigpet]

What are you talking about?
It doesn't belong into an Art forum?
What do you think you learn when studying Art? Just how to paint?
I think it's frightening that so much people show such an ignorant attitude . I don't mean this picture in particular. But just saying talking about what a picture means or could mean for some people doesn't belong into an Art forum. It seems like you guys don't understand Art it's not only about painting beautiful pictures.

once again sorry for bringing this topic up in the thread of this picture and I don't doubt that Poshspices drawing shows artistic talent in some ways

[Kyena]

Bigpet...

what bothers me is the fact that just because some people didn't bash posh for his custom treatment you guys assume that we all don't care what happend in history..and just because he did the custome the way he thought it was fitting for the background story doesn't mean he isnt careing for history or doesn't think what happend in Germany was horrible either..

I hope you got my point FINALLY! I am from Switzerland - I had history and each time I see pictures of war and what not it makes me freaking cry but there was no sign over his painting promoting anything - it was you guys who interpreted things into this piece..

And it was other people who mentioned the likeness in a probably inapprobriate manner but that doesn't justify a bashing or calling the artist insulting names.

[scytheman]

Hello
Declared for a very long time already.... and now my first post:)

The picture is very very beautiful:thumbsup:. Also the Designe of the uniform is very good:bounce:.
Do you have also a Wallpaper version from the picture?

Greets
Scyiiii

[flingster]

What are you talking about?
It doesn't belong into an Art forum?
What do you think you learn when studying Art? Just how to paint?
I think it's frightening that so much people show such an ignorant attitude . I don't mean this picture in particular. But just saying talking about what a picture means or could mean for some people doesn't belong into an Art forum. It seems like you guys don't understand Art it's not only about painting beautiful pictures.

once again sorry for bringing this topic up in the thread of this picture and I don't doubt that Poshspices drawing shows artistic talent in some ways
thats the point in this place..its a discussion forum at the end of the day...if you wanna discuss the "piece" then fire away bud...as i said everyones entitled to an opinion and i'm sure you're aware not everyone will agree or disagree with yours or mine. debating ethics on an art forum doesn't belong unless its focussed in scope in relation to the piece otherwise it should be general discussion about art...thats all i'm saying really... essentially with emotional subjects like this there is a need to be clear about what people mean hence why politics/hate etc is not encouraged discussion and needs to be focussed to the art. often threads like this get out of hand because of the media type of discussion and misunderstanding rather than the topic being discussed. people are quick to make assumptions or fill in the gaps which is most unhelpful. I think its clear from the artist that the intension was not to offend, she may well have, but at least they posted so we can discuss the work. just because i don't feel like an ethics or history lesson today doesn't mean you can't appreciate my opinion in the same way that i appreciate yours to discuss it. tomorrow i might feel like one thats all...BUT i don't think it you can deny the fact that taken to the bare bones the technique is exceptional...the subject may not agree with you but the work involved is pretty damn good from where i sit.

i'll be interested to see what they come up with for a second image when not based around a competition and at a more leisurely speed etc.

its all good...you're more than free to disagree bud, it the beauty of diversity.
:shrug:

[Arctis]

-To Poshspice :
"(...)This is set at a time before the Nazis, 1588, and uses that imagery as inspiration for the aesthetic, not the morality or philosophy. It is a concept, pure and simple!" Even if you use it only for aesthetic, you do know what represents these symbols you're using. Wether you accept it or not, this aesthetic can't be a pure concept, it's an historical fact!

"(...)The danger, as you put it does not come from people like me, but from governments and indivuals that allow ignorance and stupidity to foster." Your "pure" easthetic approach of the subject, the lack of critical sense on SS uniforms (and a little bit of gestapo thanks to leather...) precisely allow ignorance and stupidity to foster : just take a look at some reactions, like "WOW ! your miss hitler rocks !" from the courageous Mr. ???. The fact that you post an explanation very lately shows you have no real intention to avoid such ignorant reactions. Maybe you didn't mind, but that's serious. Unconsciousness can be as dangerous as violent acts.

"Darth Vader - clearly presented as evil? I think his character is probably one of the most ambiguous of all! I use those films as examples because they draw on the imagery, maybe more subtley, but that is all I have done." I never said Darth Vader was not ambiguous, but his dark side is clearly presented as evil ! The sympathy he provokes comes from his past, when he was a "normal" man. Your pict doesn't express any ambiguity : USA has its pin-up, now thanks to you, IIIrd reich has its babes too!

"So it's a girl! I like drawing girls! Would you have been more or less offended if I'd portrayed a man, a robot or a chicken as the protaginist?" Come on... Of course I would clearly have be less offended (or not at all, maybe...) if you had paint a black girl, or a gipsy, or a chicken, BUT you choose a beautiful aryan girl, blonde with blue eyes ! Are you so ingenuous?

You think I want to catch you out ? Well check my posts, you'll see I'm the first to recognize great work, and I have no resentment against anybody, so why would you be different?

-To Kyena :
"(...)yet you just make an assumption over a whole country and call a person names and insults yet you don't even know anything about that persons background."
When I said that danger comes from other countries, England for ex., I didn't say that danger IS England. Danger comes from every place where ignorance is spreading, France and Switzerland included of course! So where do I call people names and insults? :eek::eek::eek:

Some people complain about a historical lesson : Sorry guys, but an artist can't ignore the power of images, and have the responsability to master his work enough to avoid any unsound propaganda. Advertizers knows that a pretty girl promote their product better than any words...:twisted:

[flingster]

-Some people complain about a historical lesson : Sorry guys, but an artist can't ignore the power of images, and have the responsability to master his work enough to avoid any unsound propaganda. Advertizers knows that a pretty girl promote their product better than any words...:twisted:
we'll i didn't feel in the mood for a history lesson today..but since i can't avoid one it seems.
don't just assume its a propaganda image...i know and understand some very interesting comments you make...but essentially if you want to portray fascism those symbols are the very ones he/she uses..its not like they can use some others. however alot of the points and areas of the image to give that impression. In context with the fact that it was a competition entry using two themes...drake the armada and fascist england then i think it seems less advertorial as to describe. There is use of a single lion passant guardant symbol which is a bit unusual but then if it had been rampant then it could have possibly been said that it was the ensign of the Hebrew Tribe of Judah..."possibly" as it represents scotland on the royal standard currently (but taken from ireland and further afield afaik). maybe symbolism was used to lightly in this image but i don't know at the end of the day i can certainly take it or leave it. maybe the intension was unsound propaganda i don't know only the artist knows that...but since it was there first post and the intent seems not to offend i certainly gave them the benefit of the doubt...but its always good to question.

you do raise an interesting question though how to tackle the subject theme they set themselves...i liked the idea of the female twist to drake..but taking it a step further to something else is also interesting. i wonder if just the cross was removed and her skin colour had been changed whether there would have been as many complaints...dunno but its an interesting thought nontheless. i think also its important to consider drake in this and his legacy on england and the way we view him. we don't know a lot about his personality as his achievements often overshadow this in documentation
http://www.chantec.co.uk/drake-society
whether this fits with a fascist depiction of the character in history i guess the jury is out.

i just hope you guys can keep your crits friendly and as objective as possible to prevent any opinions getting out of hand. interesting discussion though with some varied reactions to it.:thumbsup:

[AlyFell]

Hello Arctis,

And thankyou Flingster for an eloquent and reasoned post.

Right now I'm off to bed to sleep no doubt the sleep of the ignorant and disingenuous, but I am tired. I have made my points many times, but will respond once more. But Arctis, are you really interested in arguments, or just scoring points?

You said earlier:"I can't believe that you dare to say that there is nothing to do with Nazis!" I didn't say that. I said: "And a piece of fiction, as this is, has NOTHING to do with Germany or the Nazis." The operative word being FICTION. Which is what this is. But hey, now we are arguing semantics. But you are arguing against the archetype, and I am defending the product of using that archetype for a piece of work. So in the end we ain't going to agree on this one really. And the stupid thing is you and I DO agree. On the fundamentals of what Naziism represents - no doubt! But for goodness sake this imagery has been used time and time again in so many different ways. Accuse me of unoriginality please, not promoting Facism!

You have repeated at length how I posted an explanation of this picture later in the thread. I have explained how I felt I initially didn't need to because it was merely a concept. An idea. And you again refer to this in your most recent post. How many times must I repeat this? I took the iconography of a right wing totalitarian state, commonly percieved at its most familiar in Nazi Germany and transfered it to a CONCEPT!

I changed the symbols. There are NO swastikas in this picture. I changed it to a TUDOR ROSE, which at the time I smugly though was actually quite clever. The TotenKopf or DeathsHead has long been a symbol of terror. Pirates used it, YES, as did the SS. The Iron Cross is not a Nazi Symbol unless it has a swastika in the middle of it. It was an award for valour before the advent of the Nazis. I even removed the Nazi Eagle and changed that to a lion. You see, I THOUGHT about this! At no point in the history of the Third Reich did anyone dress in Pseudo Elizabethan Costume and fly an airship to see off the Spanish Armada (apologies too, to any Spanish reading this).

Of course I know black, red and white were worn by the Nazis, that is what this picture alludes to, and I haven't diguised this. (Some of them probably wore pink at weekends!) She is based on Third Reich uniforms, but I design many characters for a living and use many historical costumes for inspiration. Recently I designed a future-cowboy, and used 19th century western outfits for inspiration. But this is where you and I have a problem isn't it? I did this as a concept, purely and simply. No political, or ulterior motive. You see it as a symbol despite the completely different historical setting and story. And do you know; as I did this, not once did I think I was drawing a blonde Aryan women. I was thinking I was drawing a cute blonde woman. Someone pointed your observation out to me after I did it. The last girl I had drawn had been brunette... this one was blonde. Should I change her hair colour? Are my personal preferences when it comes to hair colour now being questioned. Should I post the cowboy picture? It might offend Native Americans, or inspire hatred in the mid-west. If you wish to get into a debate about the responsibility of Art to provoke or supress or whatever, I will do, but let's wash that bit of dirty linen in private hey!?

In future I shall keep my work nicely sanitised and fluffy. Think I'll paint a bunny next, maybe two, frolicking in dandelions...


Good night, and may your God go with you!

[ace4016]

[...]you choose a beautiful aryan girl, blonde with blue eyes ! Are you so ingenuous?
She looks like she has brown eyes:wise: . BTW art is art whether you find it offensive or not, if you dont like it or it disturbs you, ignore it, look the other way and pretend it doesn't exist, simple as that.

[FredMerlos]

You just put a pretty face on horrible symbols and you turn that into an attractive sexy stuff .
You should take care on what you decide to paint and on what you want to communicate with your art. For me, it looks like bad propaganda .
Don't play with symbols, some of them could hurt much more than words.

I can't appreciate the artwork since the "repulsive Ideology" come first in your picture.

I'm very surprised that so many people like this image. I wonder if it's because immature reasons , lack of respect or simply By ignorance.

BTW, in most countries, specially in europe, it is forbidden to exhibit nazi stuff (except for film or documentary needs and must not serve nazi propaganda )

[Kyena]

I'm very surprised that so many people like this image. I wonder if it's because immature reasons , lack of respect or simply By ignorance.
I personally find this much more offending then the picture

[BigLarry]

I don't know what you guys want to do?

You want to remove this picture from the gallery??

Art is meant to stimulate us in a lot of ways - for good and for bad - aren't we all mature professionals who should understand this?

Censorship has been a problem for artists all through history and now we are bestowing it upon ourselves?

Rule 4: Critiques and responses to images are to be constructive and related to improving the quality of the artwork.

[Ruadhraigh]

I hope you are not being serious about removing the image. [I don't think you are, but I'll flame anyway :) )
What next? A ban on "decadent art"? Is no-one to be allowed to show the movement of light on black leather? (especially when done extremely well, as Poshspice has done). A ban on combinations of black and red? On lions couchant or rampant? On arm bands or garters? Poshspice was right when he says "Accuse me of unoriginality please, not promoting Facism!", because the galleries of the world are full of images from history and pseudo-history like this. The comparison with the RSC production of Richard III is well made.

If there is a crime, then that crime would be to white wash and blank out the fascist era, to pretend it never happened. If Poshspice is to be tried for thought-crime, then the charge is that he reminds us how seductive the images, uniforms, insignia of that era were. Many, many people in England, France, Ireland, Spain, Poland, the Baltics were seduced by it - not just Germany, Austria and Italy.

I think that this work deserves an Editors Choice. If it does not do so, then it will be hard for me to believe that the reason is not that the subject matter is too difficult.

[noelt]

I'm suprised at the amount of discussion this is generating, this is good to see. I'm thinking that it is all because this piece is so good ,because, there was another entry (page14) titled "Kaiser Wut Spaceship Landing" (not as good) and i thought that it was more Nazish but no one mentioned this issue then, and i think that the piece was front page as well. Poshspice i think you should go to page 14 and look and........read the comments (he he) then reevalueate the situation.....just playing devils advocate over here. Don't take this off if you were thinking of doing so. Is leather Nazi or is leather plus the other symbols Nazi.....i love the leather rendering. Please go to page 14 and tell us what you think. Lastly i think that it is better to consider the impact of strong images before creating but not to back off if you feel strongly about a piece, this is great art, to me, the amount of discussion this is generating is bumping the piece into the 5+ stars range :bounce: :bounce:

[AlyFell]

Noelt - Oooh! You stirer you! ;) He he he!

Checked out the image. Thanks. Most enlightening! Superb picture and great draughtsmanship. I really like the CONCEPT. Great design of a future spaceship, incorporating PSEUDO NAZI IMAGERY! Er... but whats this? (shock horror)! Gasps! Who can it be praising the image four posts down. Do my eyes decieve me? Blinks! Like duh!! I'm sorry but I am getting really confused here... I think I might faint!

[flingster]

BTW, in most countries, specially in europe, it is forbidden to exhibit nazi stuff (except for film or documentary needs and must not serve nazi propaganda )
This is a really good point actually... this is not the case in England where this artist lives afaik. This doesn't mean you can fly a nazi flag outside your house, but there is certainly less control over the use of the symbol. But it does show differences in cultural perceptions of these particular images, something i elluded to in my earlier comments about drake...my impression of the man initially was arrogant type of personality so the pose and gestapo type uniform would fit..certainly the pantaloon type ruffle thing works well, but having read some more about him this may not extirely be the case but. We are brought up in school learning about a romantic version of drake and outside of the uk how you regard drake is probably very different...certainly in spanish schools would be interesting how this part of history is covered. I do think culturally there a big differences in symbolism and there meanings...its certainly the case with colour...symbols like the swastika have been around for a long time before being bastardised by the nazis. to buddhists and hindus its a religious symbol and quite commonly used... so a surfer with these beliefs MAY see things differently. Its clear in this piece that the symbols relate to fascism rather than religion of course, probably because of the black leather gestapo look to the uniform helps the association. certainly in england the swastika is recognised as a nazi symbol but then in the same was it was used in propaganda in germany it was used seen in opposition here. i do think there is an element of cultural differences in perception arisen out of this image being posted...this is no bad thing...it reminds us there is more to the world than our own country and that we post on an international forum and should have respect for others opinions.

[Shin Tsuki]

Yes truly, that other pic is quite interesting, or rather, the responses it recieved. So why was it so well appreciated for what it was when this one was not?

[FredMerlos]

To all the peoples here who like or defend this picture solely because you find that the leather material is well done, I think you should be serious one moment.

This image is not as innocent as pretend Mr Poshspice.
It clearly shows nostalgy and fascination for Nazi symbols.
Worst of all, it gives a wrong interpretation of what these symbols means. It's commonly admited that nazism represent the largest genocide since human been existance, racial hatred propaganda,racial discrimination, tortures, humiliations and all those atrocities were done with huge industrial methods.

So you should admit that we are far , very far from the representation of the innocent young pretty female.
And this is the BIG problem of this picture...it gives another sense of what things are !
At this point I really don't care if the leather is well done or not.

Now if you think you can say, show, or exhibit whatever you want on this sensitive topic because you think you are allowed to do so, Just take a look on what the internationnal laws think about that.
-------------------------------------------------------------
The members of the Council of Europe (COE) are signatories to the 2001 Convention on Cybercrime.
The original COE Cybercrime treaty was also signed by a number of non-COE states. the United States, Canada, Japan, Mexico and South Africa. These states can choose to sign on to the protocol too, if they want

The specifics of the protocol:

What counts as "racist" or "xenophobic" speech? The protocol reaches "any written material, any image or any other representation of ideas or theories, which advocates, promotes or incites hatred, discrimination or violence, against any individual or group of individuals, based on race, color, descent or national or ethnic origin, as well as religion if used as pretext for any of these factors."

It also requires signatory states to enact domestic laws, if they have not already done so, criminalizing intentionally distributing, or "making available" via computer such material -- or, in addition, material which denies, minimizes, approves of or justifies crimes genocide or crimes against humanity.

-------------------------------------------------------------

[AlyFell]

Fred! Are you actually reading what I am saying! How the heck does a fictional representation of a totally IMAGINARY scenario set in a world that never existed fall into what you are describing. What seems to be bothering you and Arctis is the portrayal of a figure in this picture and the use of a woman. Which seems to me so blinkered. The other picture mentioned in this thread does exactly the same thing with the theme. PRETEND WORLD BASED ON A SOCIETY WHERE RIGHT WING IDEOLOGY TAKES OVER. But what putting a figure in this does, is remind you that it was people who were Nazis, not machines. It makes the subject matter identifiable with, and that is scary isn't it? And guess what, women were Nazis too. And some of them were pretty. Not just men with silly moustaches.

The problem being is that some cannot divorce the 'idea' from the 'reality' the idea is taken from. Look at your earlier post. What 'repulsive ideology' are you refering to? The idea of the Tudors having a Fascist state. This is a 'what if' scenario. It's pretend! Bad propoganda! Selling what? Elizabethan totalinarianism! Some people are imposing a pre-concieved notion of what constitutes 'offensive', on to a picture that doesn't actually represent what they think it does. If you read 'Fatherland' by Robert Harris, or watched 'Richard III' by Ian McKellern, do you imagine those pieces of ART are selling Naziism? Hopefully not! So why impose that misconception on me! This is about motive! If my picture set out to corrupt or alter opinion I could understand critiscism. But that was NOT the motive. It is a CONCEPT! I've said time and time again: I developed a concept of a Fascist Britain and used the idea of Frances Drake (even changing the name to the feminine spelling), to represent that power, and took the imagery of the Nazis (adapting it away from that) to present that concept. (And Flingster - you're points on Francis Drake are well put. I don't want to upset the Drake Society too! ;) )

Continued debate on this however seems utterly pointless, as we all agree on the brutality of Naziism. This has now turned into a debate on perception of imagery, and whether it should be suppressed. And the banning of imagery and writing deemed offensive is what led to book burnings in Berlin in the thirties. How bloody ironic eh! There is much I don't like to look at, but I don't want it banned, because WHO decides what is fit for viewing? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

However, I would like some opinion on whether people think the idea that Elizabethan England could have been a fascist state, with a female Frances Drake captaining a fleet of airships is an interesting concept or not. And whether I have rendered this effectively, or not.

[Kyena]

And the banning of imagery and writing deemed offensive is what led to book burnings in Berlin in the thirties. How bloody ironic eh! There is much I don't like to look at, but I don't want it banned, because WHO decides what is fit for viewing? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

OWNED - and exactly what I was about to write in my long essay post (and I can't believe I am still getting totally mad while reading this thread)..

[FredMerlos]

If you think you suffer of misconception on you, it's probably because in some points you failed in your Art communication. And you should assume the critics and the reactions created by your post. Take it as constructive comments and ask you why poeples react like that.
Nothing in your picture suggest what you wrote here.

I never talked about banning imagery ,
BTW, I worry more about what is really curently banned nowdays while I found that far less Controverted.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/16/news/fortune500/yir04_indecency/index.htm

[noelt]

I'm still stuck on why THIS picture is so alarming to people and i think that Poshspice carefully crafted this picture because of the thought used in the name Francis Drake and into dual meanings, reading his/her words tells me that there is a lot more thought to this painting than i originally thought , but, why this picture and not other, the alarm was triggered, i my opinion, by a specific symbol, the biggest one, .......Blond. I'm not defending blond or picking sides i'm just saying...."nice leather man, how did you paint that". When i see who and what these blimps are attacking then i start to make more concrete decisions,however, it is a very good idea to keep your eyes open this is why i'm happy to see this discussion, and that this nice painting was not taken down (because then, if evil, it goes underground etc.). I have a theory in my mind that an Evil deeds is a kind of suicide (this is the beauty of a GOOD universe) meaning that the long term result of Nazism is the longterm slow death of whatever evil Nazism represented and what triggered the alarm?? Why didn't Arctis respond to the other picture but to this one, this is the big issue to me ,as far as i know, Arctis is a good person and Poshspice is a good person. Please note, i'm not ever trying to win arguments, i like to....er, increase thought.

Here's a thought, what if the drive behind the ladys regime is a benovelent one, what then?? See how Blond kind of.......attacks itself (in this context), through, an initial negitive perception , he he he he heeeee.

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[flingster]

in this imaginery world...who say frances drake wins the battle? you've assumed the fascist regime in this picture is the dominant force in the world.
i thought it was legal to be blond?
why don't men take issue with the fact its a woman leader/admiral?
is the sword correct for the time imaginery timeframe?
why are they using air ships?
who is this order fighting for a monarchy? one of germanic decent like our current monarchy?
was drake just a gestapo nutter or a good man misunderstood?
why don't you just pop an arrow in her eye and that sure to up confuse the issue further.

i don't know guys i think its clear people have been offended by the picture but not sure removing it is the answer. Posh has applogised for any offence caused and clearly stated its not propaganda for facist politics what more do you want from him/her? repaint the thing!there are clearly some cultural differences which in hindsight may have been avoided but this is the internet you're on guys...we have people from geneva and france clearly upset by the image and those in england or further afield less so...it has a lot with how history is taught in schools or approached in media in general whether you like it or not, we are brought up in entirely different societies and yet we are all in agreement fascism is not good...maybe we should take this as a lesson in cultural differences rather than subliminal propaganda.

bygones
:shrug:

[AlyFell]

Flingster and Noelt... you are born diplomats. If my real name was Victoria I'd have your babies. But my genetic makeup might dispute the viability of such a desire! :)

[Arctis]

Hi,
Some people reproached me that I didn't criticize the "KaiserWut" picture.
It's possible that I should have reacted more, but I didn't for three reasons :
- No nazi symbols are clearly used, just red banners and a german name. Now that I take a closer look, maybe the character suits are Wehrmacht suits, but it's hard to see...
- The name is the most ambiguous, but somebody said, before I posted, that it was a ridiculous name. I thought it was enough, but maybe I was wrong...
- A war ship as austere as this one can't be an idealization of war in any way.

But the main reason is a personnal story : at my school, there was a guy that was fond of SS suits : he admires their elegance etc... Someone told me two year later, that this guy has joined a french neo-nazi clan !
I never said that you were a neo-nazi, and I believe you when you're describing your uchrony : if this historical period inspires you a story where you can express your horror of nazi's obscenity, for ex, it can be interesting of course.

What shocked me was the addition of SS symbols+blonde attractive girl+some reactions on the thread ("your miss Hitler rocks" etc...)+the history I told you just before.

I agree with most people here : technically, you did a great job. It's not surprising that it attracts so many people (10000 entries !), so it's important that you think about the message carried in your pict, even unintentionally, because some people will never read any text, and will never catch the context of your image...
Maybe I've been a bit tough in my previous post, sorry about it, but I think the debate was necessary.

Bye.

[davpunk]

very nice illo. Nice pose and composition. My gripe would be the highlights in the zepplins detract your eye from the focus-which I am guessing is the girl. So youre eye is being pulled away rather than TO the girl. They are also very sharp, so the zepplins compete with the girl.
Great quality though.

[Shin Tsuki]

hey Posh, did you use reference for the leather or the sword? Maybe it's just me, but i have a heck of a time getting sword blades to look that good, and this one is great.

[FredMerlos]

Maybe I've been a bit tough in my previous post, sorry about it, but I think the debate was necessary.

Arctis, you do not have to justify yourselves, your reations are completely justifiables.

A creation of image always speaks by itself.
You can not show something and say in the other hand , you have to understand other things.


It belongs to Poshspice to decide if his image, betrays his opinions or not and to assume its responsibilities and the consequences.


Now if some of you doubt again about the impact of the symbol, read this:

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/

[AlyFell]

Hello Arctis,

I guess one of the big problems here has been misinterpretation from both
perspectives. I really had no ulterior motive in this picture. It was
completely to illustrate an idea, and I had thought the changes I had made
to the symbols on the uniform were enough to fit in with the historical
peroid I chose to set it in; which I think they are, but it shows how the
complete image causes the emotion, not the individual parts. And for that I
apologise.

Perhaps I should have chosen a different picture as my first post, but this
represents hopefully where I am technically with Photoshop. Believe me, the
piece I'm working on at the moment is in no way as potentially provocative.
:D I had thought of doing Lady Drake in 3D using Maya, but I might drop that idea...

Shin Tsuki - The sword was drawn from imagination and from a fancy dress one
I have that I set up next to the computer with a bendy lamp shining on it.
The hightlight isn't very accurate though. It was supposed to be like the
flash off a camera, as I imagined the viewer in the pic was taking a
photograph of Lady Drake and using a flash... The leather was totally from
my head, as was the girl, but I love drawing fabric and designing costumes.
I did use reference for the Zeppelins, as I'd never drawn one before.

[AlyFell]

OK FredMerlos - You seem determined to put more petrol on this fire. You are now suggesting this image BETRAYS my opinions and its up to me to decide if it does. Right...Okay... Er... I hate Nazis too. Yup! Thats my opinion! Of which the picture is completely irrelevant, because it shows a made up world! What do you actually WANT from me Fred? I'd love to know!:shrug:

Arctis's and your reactions to Nazi ideology are JUSTIFIED, because I feel the same, but you are attacking the wrong target! The axe you're grinding is sharp enough!

[nacho_grande]

It is a real masterpiece. I am schoked :eek: :bounce: :buttrock: :applause:

[Calveccio]

See it for what it is people...a painting, and a 'very' good one at that!

Art doesn't always have a meaning and it doesn't have to, people forget that, sometimes we just create art, in a way we want to...because we want to.

Poshspice, any hints on who the character is modelled on?! :D

[stoo]

Hi,

Has anyone else noticed that some of the imagery used looks a little nazi-ish?

Heh, Just Kidding :). Excellent picture; as well as the awesome leather, I think the hair looks amazing. Any pointers on how you did that? I love the way it's very fine at the ends, it's very real looking.

cheers,
stoo

[MartinGFoster]

I like everything except the key lighting contradictions.

Especially her cast shadow on the floor indicating that the main lighting direction is from behind.

The zeppelins are front lit with a blue tone.

I wish it was 3d so it would be easy to relight it. I imagine that's a bit tricky in 2d ;)

Hey, I grew up in Rotherham, UK. We were once neighbours! I'm in West LA, California now though.

[Paperboy]

The Hair and clothing are great! and the scene is great also :)

Awesome Artwork :buttrock:

[llama]

yeah~~
the costume is pretty!
and the background is full of imagination.
aeroboat ~~ :thumbsup:

[peachysticks]

Hey, I still have the original in my computer! :D New version's ships look very cool, less like a painted backdrop (but painted backdrops aren't a bad thing). Nice work!

[AlyFell]

Calveccio - Not modelled on anyone I'm affraid, just the product of a perverse mind... heh!

stoo - the hair was just playing till I was happy. But a good tutorial on hair is by DonSeegmiller, and it might be on his website.

MartinGFoster - you're right. The lighting is a bit bonkers, but I kind of faked it for effect... I was going to do this in 3D, but that idea's kind of on the back burner now... You've been in the States too long! Rotherham's miles from Derby! ;)

Hi Peachysticks! - I forgot you were here too! :)

Thankyou for the responses!

[Rennie]

Awesome work
Like the nazi-feel you gave to it. Was the first thing that came to me when is saw this picture.
The women looks like a real bitch to me :D

[flingster]

Hey, I grew up in Rotherham, UK. We were once neighbours! I'm in West LA, California now though.
heh heh...the world is a small place...there is hope for me yet..rotherham posse...lol.
all the best from Sunny Sheff! :blush:

[ANARKY]

I love this image. Its technically brilliant.

But im shocked that people have read into this image and assumed your political idiology based on this one image. I think its safe to say that the vast majority of people on here realise that its a work of fiction and in no way means your some kind of Nazi.

I myself have had a similar reaction to one of my Artworks that was based on Jack the Ripper.

It has to be said that as the artist it can be hurtful that people automatically assume things about you based on an image.

The thing is that, artistically, the Dark side of humanity is hugely insperational. Dark imagry, or basing imagry on dark era's in our history often produces the most thought provocing and powerful Art (be it pictures or film or whatever) around.
But there will always be people who are offended by it. Everyone has different tolerances to things.
The reaction to this image reminds me of the Religeous Rights reaction to things like Harry Potter and Dungeous and Dragons. They cant get past the fact that Magic (Hence witchcraft = Satanism) is used in these works of fiction and protest against them.

As for your idea of doing the image in Maya. I say do it! Dont let a few bad reactions put you off. Your image has been provocative, but thats all.

I look forward to seeing more of your Art!

[Faceblur]

hi poshspice,

first of all, great work. And believe it or not I've been in your position numerously before. It seems nowaday some people are over sensitive to certain context, and apparently we're no longer allowed to draw, nazis, devils, satan, and according to one right-wing extremist forum, even people with turbans are not allowed to be depicted. These people can find obscure hidden meanings in a painting that even the original artist was unaware of, often forgetting that sometimes a painting is just a damn painting, but without knowing they are enacting critical censorship, undermining the artist the will and daring to use imagination without political/religious restrictions.

If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.

[johanflood]

Alistair, first of all I really like the motive and you have some sort of built in feeling for anatomy which I admire. very well done my friend

I think maybe some of the "highlights" on the sword and on the airships are to strong and over the top. I am not talking big adjustments here and purely for bringing out the girl as the main focus. With this you would get 5 stars instead of 4 is my guess.

[johanflood]

my English is not really brilliant so I am just saying stuff with simpler words. I do not think the world is black and white even if some people want to see it that way. When it comes to bad symbols go to the roots of the use of this symbols. the runes adopted by Nazis to use on their helmets is nothing I am proud of as a Swede but I cannot help ignorant people using stuff for the wrong purposes. I would still use runes in a picture because they are part of my history with Vikings long way back in the family tree. It is ignorant people who kill other people no matter what symbols or flags they carry. Maybe I should paint a big picture of Dalai Lama just to follow this up.

This is just my reaction to the topic brought up in this thread.

[LynX88]

First off, Very nice piece! :D This "alternate reality" theme is really interesting, as it brings up a "what if" question. The choice of subtle imagery based on this "evil" archetype is interesting as well, because it makes the viewer immediately register it as such. No crits on the piece.

Now, i've seen all this talk of the image containing "Pro Nazi" imagery and such. And Mr(or Ms) Poshspice, you've obviously put alot of thought into the piece, to the point of replacing such obvious Nazi symbols as the Swastika with that ingenous Tudor Rose symbol. I personally see no Nazi-promoting elements in the image at all. So to all those people who come in and say "this piece has Nazi influence!" or "it promotes Nazi-ism!" or "i just hate it for some reason or another, because it reminds me of Nazis!", from the surprising vehemence i've seen being spouted here, i have to ask you: what is your major malfunction? This is an art forum. To critique art, not to impose prejudiced views on other people. The debate i've seen regarding this issue so far, is not constructive and related to improving the quality of artwork.


The posting rules are stated as follows, which some people obviously forgot:

Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right.
Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause.
Don't dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff. CGTalk is a professional, moderated forum. It's a place to talk about all things related to computer graphics.
Critiques and responses to images are to be constructive and related to improving the quality of the artwork.
The modern world where openmindedness is the best policy. You don't need to forget, but its healthy to forgive. And before you flame me for being ignorant of such things, let me just tell you that i live in a country that has seen brutal, inhumane atrocities committed by the imperialist Japanese during WW2, which has indeed made a lasting impression. Yet i keep an open mind, because this is a different era. I will never forget the things that happened, but understanding that times have changed, i bear no ill will to the Japanese, or to any supposed Imperial Japan symbolism such as their Rising Sun symbol, so feared and hated it was at the time.

[cateaic]

The leather work on this is absolutely amazing! I love the character.

[Chicco]

wow...indeed you have an amazing technique... :eek:

[Cleveland]

everytime i see this i am inspired. she's hot; beautiful. cool costume, a great mix of historical styles. fantastic mixing of concepts in there. especially all the subtley changed emblems. and of course the ever popular elizabethan gestapo leatherwork! they all seem in harmony with each other, in terms of treatment. great concept, better execution. can see it hanging on a wall in some engllish stately home, like those portraits with the hunting dogs or horses. maya 3d please!just wondering why her airship is different from all the others. (the others have no railings...)

[feeesh]

I am so incredibly offended with this picture I cant even put it into words!!! :rolleyes:

Just kidding of course. Ive had this one in my favorites for quite some time now and was just looking back at it and saw the whole Nazi related discussion going on and was blown away. I have no opinion on it all at this point and dont want to express an opinion that would dredge up the conversation again but I do wish to say that I hope the heated debate that came up over this piece hasn't made you skiddish about posting more art. I haven't seen anything else posted from you since and I am dying to see more artwork from you if it is even close to the quality in this piece.

You might jsut be busy and not have anything new to post which I hope is the case. If you were too annoyed or turned-off by the CG Talk members' reactions to post any art in the future that would be a real bummer!

-Jason

[jordancheng]

Sexy woman!

[cksdayoff]

wow.

Beautiful piece of work.

[D-a-r-e-k--B-u-b-e-l-a]

I know a lot of people are offended by this picture, but I'm not. I'm not ignorant of the topic and i still think this is fine piece of art. Yes, ART...it is supposed to be expressive and at times controversal (tho, i'm not sure if it was intended in this case) but i still find the beauty of this piece of art.

Personally, i think this piece is a great statement of stereotypes... Just seeing a nazi symbol makes everyone all upset and uptight, but the girl shows that u can find beauty in the ugliest of things.

Get over stereotyping in negative ways and realize that not everyone who followed hitler and his nazis were bad people...some were still good people and beatiful, too.

[snakeagle]

I like the uniform so much,the design is really wonderful!(Also,the uniform is British style.)
And all the airships,convulse me so much!
Wish you wouldn't mind if I collect it.

[anshutz]

:applause: :) Nice pic! I really like womans! She is very...hnn...she is dominant!

[Voluntas]

Very nice indeed. Beautiful girl with "powerful" clothes, nice stand and good setting (place) which gives it a special touch.

Now im intrested in the fact..

How will her "husband", second captain, co-pilot or just "boyfriend" look like?
Will it be also some dude in same clothe style or will it be the opposite, like yin and yan(, white clothes)?
Or is there no "captain/boyfriend" in this girls life?

I'm not as good as you but i do think it looks great and realistic. Ones again, nice done.

And of course keep it up.

[Lifthz]

I know a lot of people are offended by this picture, but I'm not. I'm not ignorant of the topic and i still think this is fine piece of art. Yes, ART...it is supposed to be expressive and at times controversal (tho, i'm not sure if it was intended in this case) but i still find the beauty of this piece of art.

Personally, i think this piece is a great statement of stereotypes... Just seeing a nazi symbol makes everyone all upset and uptight, but the girl shows that u can find beauty in the ugliest of things.

Get over stereotyping in negative ways and realize that not everyone who followed hitler and his nazis were bad people...some were still good people and beatiful, too.

I think it's pretty stupid to be offended by this. This is great artwork and I do not see anything that is offensive despite the obvious military nature of the setting.

[Thasaidon]

Well, I just found this site today and already some of the opinions posted as an answer to this briliant picture got my blood boiling in my veins. I've seen many manifestations of human indolence and effects of pollitical correctness propaganda that is wide spread in the media, but this... Some of you are criticizing an artist, and a good one at that, just for the use of certain imagery. An altered and severly differed from the original might I add. Most of these opinions have nothing to do with historical and furthermore political concept of National Socialism. You "critics" apparently do not even know what word "Nazi" means. It stands for GERMAN (and not any other) National Socialist - "nazionalsozialist". When used in the context of any other country it should never be even mentioned, and here we have an example of ENGLAND in alternate universe. I'm acquainted with most of the political concepts that were present in human history, simply by a fact that I'm a student o Political Sciences. To be exact, National Socialism is nothing more than one of political, economical and adnimistrative concepts to rule a country. Just like oligarchy, democracy, absolutism, monarchy, socialism, politeya and many more. To all those self-righteous censors and defenders of morality and historical untruth, National Socialism does not derive from Germany and for your personal information, Poland, the country attacked firstly, had NS parties in 1918 - the first year of our independence! National Socialism in its roots was not hatemongering ideology, simply set to preserve the national values. There is simply nothing to hate or like if you are not into politics. And I don't think that pride of one's nation or love to country's history is something bad or to be ashamed of, if you do then I feel sorry for the country you live in. But let's get back to the main cause of this odd quibble. The symbolics, if this settles you, used in this picture needn't be of III Reich origin, because the Reich wasn't so innovative as you may think. Death's Heads were commonly used in Prussian cavalry (Totenkopf-Hussaren), Tsarist Russia and even in Polish dyon (old term for division) of cavalry (going under the name "Huzarzy Smierci - The Death's Head Hussars" during the Polish - Soviet war of 1920). As cavalry dressed in black uniforms with skull as their emblem they were probably firstly installed in Prussian Army but before that, during the January Uprising 1863 on ethnic Polish teritiories, Death's Heads and black uniforms were used by "Zuawi Smierci" which can be loosely translated as Death Infantry. If you want to see some proofs, so here:

Zuawi Smierci:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Zuawi_smierci.jpg/620px-Zuawi_smierci.jpg

Polish Death's Head Hussars of 1920 Polish-Soviet war:
http://img278.imageshack.us/img278/5513/szwadrony3dq.jpg

Prussian Hussars from World War I:
http://www.greatwar.nl/kleur/princereg.jpg
http://www.greatwar.nl/kaiser/kronprinz.jpg

General August von Mackensen in uniform from around Franco-Prussian War (1870-71):
http://www.pzaufkl.de/mackensen.jpg

Concerning the Iron Cross, its design was popular in almost EVERY army of European Continent. When it goes to swastika, which is NOT EVEN USED in this picture. Its banishment by EU council is more or less as infantile as treating carrot as a fruit by same authority organ. This sign is present in almost every culture, Nordic - as a sign of sun or wheels of Thor's charriot, Slavonic as Swiaszczyca - as a fire, sun symbol, commonly used on Arkona (today's Rugia). Hindu, Chinese, Japanese and many more as a sign of happines and luck. Even Perssian, Asyrian, Aztec, Inca, Toltec, Greek (Gammadion, Tetraskelion) and even jewish cultures had swastika as a symbol. I'm almost sure that if Poshspice would draw alternate universe England as a communist state, with usage of red star and sickle crossed with hammer you wouldn't object. And that is because winners write history, and even if you have this small awareness of that the communism is "bad" only "Nazism" triggers your strange reaction. And now:

Directly to FredMerlos : Your knowledge of history is astounding, probably you haven't touched historical book, beside History Textbook in highschool. You wrote that Nazism killed the largest amount of people in history of mankind, which proves you obviously have no idea about this particular branch of science. Let me give you some numbers, the total number of victims of Nazi regime is 25 million, and now read carefully, total numer of communism victims may be over 300 million (three hundred!) according to "The Black Book of Communism". Furthermore communists were first when it comes to building deathcamps, they were more brutal and inhumane but they won the war so there were no serious repercusions about their ideology, were there? And don't tell me (or maybe Arctis wrote this) that Germans were traumatized by Nazism, Germans were traumatized by loosing the war which was not the consequence of Nazism but Hitler's lack of strategic abilities. Germans couldn't be traumatized by an ideology praising German Folk. Besides if any of you would be interested in history you would know something about historiosophy. That's the science basicly and among other things dealing with "what could happen if". So if there was no Holy Inqusition many think we would colonize Mars by now, so the absolutistic monarchy dressed in the robes of NS Totalitrianism would be pretty much possible as the two are very close.

Directly to Arctis: Your argumentation is even less coherent then one of Fred Merlos. No comment. Well maybe one little, mayble we really should organize another genocide but this time only for those who give their authoritative opinions about something they are not familiar with? Or for those not literate enough to read a book about that? Next time think twice before making such remarks...

Oh, one more thing about that thing here: http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/
Half of what they write about symbolics on this site is very misleading, I don't intend to be ashamed of some of them just because some americam idiot tatooed it on his skull/chest/whatever and thus it was approved as a "hate-symbol", some of them are a part of European heritage (runes, sunwheel, celtic cross, Odin's mandala etc).
I apologize if I've been a little harsh and my tongue was too sharp, but such ignorance on the subject that I'm so fond of (history) just makes me mad as hell.

At the end of this massive post I would like to tell Poshspice that his work is fantastic, not BECAUSE he used totalitarian symbolics, but because he used totalitarian symbolics among various other things, and he did it with great skill. I'm not in position to judge the purely technical side of this picture but I just like it, just as I like other pics from his site. (even though Demon Prince has behind him pentagram pointed not in the way it should be ;) ). My congratulations.

[JM_JM]

What a beautiful image.
Such great texture on the clothing.
Fantastic style.
5 Stars!

I come to CG SOCIETY to admire art.
I dont care about politics when I am here.
Being here helps me escape reality...it gives me
a chance to put the world on hold.
I wander through CG SOCIETY
admiring and studying all the beautiful
realizations of other artists.

I dont give a crap about their politics or whatever...blah blah blah...
I only care about possible tutorials and other goodies to create more beautiful images with!
:bounce:

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.