PDA

View Full Version : Sell me on Messiah as a renderer


ScottC
12-05-2004, 08:24 AM
Hi all! I was wondering if anyone would like the chance to do some shilling for PMG. Im a LW/ frpime user, but have grown increasingly frustrated by rendering deficiencies. Fprime is great, or at least will be, whenever it eventually supports shaders, but LW has some native deficiencies that dont look like will be addressed anytime soon.

I work primarily for print, i.e., higher-end/high resolution, and LW has grown increasingly problematic for me in this area...there are problems saving out at high res that transfer over to Fprime as well. Also, I recently picked up Zbrush, and it has really changed the way I work, and I am now all about displacement, but displacement in LW is fairly useless, as you generally have to generate more polys to get the sds patches to display the maps accurately than you would be just importing the pure geometery. Oh, and not to mention the Fprimes need to have the display res match the render rez. So Messiahs Sub poly displacement is very attractive to me. I dont actually do much in terms of animation, though messiahs superior rigging would help me in character posing.

My questions are as follows, if anyone would be good enough to chime in on the matter:


1)Is the sub pixel displacement really the magic bullet it seems to be? I understand it doesnt increase the gemometry, but is there an equivilent trade off burden in complexity somewhere else that can bog down the renderer, and allow for failures at high res?

2) How do you think it would work for high resolution stills generation?... How print firendly is it?...does anyone use it thusly?

3) It boasts fast Global illumination, but has anyone who is also a lw user vouch for this? I dont expect it to be Fprime fast, but is it faster than LW? How about quality comparison? I havent actually hasd a lot of luck finding a satisfying amount of samples, particularly GI online, at least, not on the PMG site

4) and finally, I have a new nvidia 256mb 6800 GT vid card, which Im not likely to swap out any time soon. How severe are the reported problems with the 6 series line? Do I need to be really worried about this?

So, bottom line, for someone who doesnt do animation primarily, but would certainly benefit from better rigging than lw 7.5, but who is looking primarily for a more advance rendering solution than LW do well to pick this up?

I really appreciate anyone who is willing to take a stab at any of these questions, or point me to some exclusive Messiah galleries, beyond the scant content Ive found on the site and here in the forums.

Thanks!

ThomasHelzle
12-05-2004, 01:57 PM
Hi, I will try to answer as good as possible:

1.) Messiah doesn't do subpixeldisplacement as you interpret it. It is subpolydisplacement that actually subdivides the geometry, but does so at rendertime in an extremely fast and efficient manner. So it is superior to LW, but has quite some memory overhead if used with high subdivision numbers.

2.) There are different reports on high res. I have done 6000x6000 renderings without problems, but others had problems with even lower rez. The problem isn't completely clear at the moment but is looked into from what I have heard.
I was always very impressed with the fact that increasing the resolution doesn't slow rendering down as much as Lightwave which is pure crap for high-rez work IMO speed and memory wise.
You can render the image in chunks that can be saved to disk to save memory and this doesn't slow down rendering (just a little bit for the disk access which is no longer a big concern nowadays).
I would advice to get at least 2Gig of memory and set the /3GB switch in the boot.ini of Windows XP to allow the apps using more memory.

3.) It is much faster than LW with GI and has a far superior GI-smoothing algorithm that dramatically can bring rendertimes down (depending on your scene). I have never used MonteCarlo in LW because it was always too slow for me. But I very often use MC GI in messiah. The MC GI Quality is at least as good as LW, with the added option of good smoothing. I am not as keen on the Photon GI. I don't like it in XSI either so it may be the technique and not the renderer. :)
I own Fprime too and I use it for previews mostly, as an enhanced viper. There are some things where it is really fast but other stuff I found rather tedious so I'm using messiah more than LW lately.

Maybe go to http://www.zoogono.com and follow the links in the news to all the stuff Taron and others have posted lately. Great examples for displacement, sss and GI.
Some GI stuff I currently do is documented in my WIP Thread:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=187319
The noise in the images is left in because I like it very much - with stronger GI smoothing I could have gone rid of it.
There are other threads in this forum with cool images too...

4.) As far as the Graphics card goes, I can't help. I use an older Nvidia card with no problems. The best may be to download the messiah animate demo and try out the interface on your machine. Maybe someone else can give some tips about the issues.

One other thing that is superior to LW is the current development that brings exciting new stuff with every new patch. 2.0c is about to be released with a wealth of new options and fixes. Having Taron as a developer doesn't exactly hurt either :)

The node based shaderflow is for me the most fascinating part of the renderer. Being able to connect everything to everything is very cool. But you will have to see how it fits you - some people seem to have a hard time getting used to it, coming from LW.
But if you are looking for extended possibilities - node based is the way to go.

There surely are some issues as well, but I know that they are on the list to be fixed or improved so I am getting more and more confident that we will soon have one of the best renderers on the market - in some areas it already is.

Cheers!

ScottC
12-05-2004, 04:03 PM
Thank you Thomas! More than I could have hoped.

2.) There are different reports on high res. I have done 6000x6000 renderings without problems, but others had problems with even lower rez. The problem isn't completely clear at the moment but is looked into from what I have heard.
I was always very impressed with the fact that increasing the resolution doesn't slow rendering down as much as Lightwave which is pure crap for high-rez work IMO speed and memory wise.
You can render the image in chunks that can be saved to disk to save memory and this doesn't slow down rendering (just a little bit for the disk access which is no longer a big concern nowadays).
I would advice to get at least 2Gig of memory and set the /3GB switch in the boot.ini of Windows XP to allow the apps using more memory.

Well, the problem, at least on the LW end is a bottleneck on the software saver side, and is completely hardware independant, as I upgraded machines, and still had the same problems. I mean, back in the day, I used to render out much larger in Strata (albeit soooo slowly...) with no problems on a 512 mb ram machine. I currently have a 2 Gig dual channel setup, so I would hope that wouldnt be a problem.

Again, you answered many of my questions more thouroughly than I could have hoped, Thanks!

CGTalk Moderation
01-20-2006, 03:00 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.