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ambient-whisper
08-27-2002, 08:31 AM
heres the page with the info..

http://pixologic.com/

http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=007506


have fun guys :)

heres the order form :)
http://pixologic.com/order/orderfr.html

Array
08-27-2002, 08:33 AM
excellent :bounce:

EDIT:

Ha, no seriously, that HAD to have been my worst post here so far :)

Im actually very excited about this software, as new technologies that challenge the way we work is allways a good thing.

I think the prez of Alias|Wavefront once said that his vision is to make production quality software easy for any artist to pick up, without having to know a great deal of the technical aspects of modelling, animation, and rendering (leave that to the TD's :applause: ). Looks like Pixologic beat Alias|Wavefront to the punch in terms of taking a big step in that direction. I hope Zbrush enjoys it's well deserved popularity.

ambient-whisper
08-27-2002, 10:08 AM
alias has been beat in that area for years tho ;) as far as production quality...its there. but ease of use..i wont say its hard but theres many other apps that are much easier to pick up :)

Scott Guns
08-27-2002, 10:29 PM
Yeah, like Wings 3D (http://www.wings3d.com).

You know you want to.

gidgit
08-27-2002, 10:43 PM
Too funny... be real... comparing Wings to ZBrush is akin to comparing MS Paint to ZBrush... Get a grip...

ambient-whisper
08-27-2002, 10:59 PM
....gidgit... :annoyed: :shame:....apples...oranges. try to magnet rotate a long rectangular object when you need to wrap something around another object in zbrush :)
select an edgering convert to faces and extrude inwards...then select that edgering again and scale down. or bevel to your mechanical objects..have fun.

on the other hand...have fun drawing your object in wings...see the difference? each has its use. dont devaule a year of one mans work against a team that spend several years on a product.

trust me. both are great software. you should try to use both of em together to try to limit limitations that each software has. no?

wlau
08-28-2002, 12:27 AM
Gidgit,

Hardly. use a little more intellect and you might see the stupidity of your statement.

Ever used Wings3D? Either way, it's an exceptional program. But as Ambient says, it's not feasible to even compare these two programs.

From its inception, both programs are systematically built using two very different approaches to realize one common goal. I see no reason to bash Wings down, when it is a more than competent program.

MS Paint to ZBrush? Try comparing plausible things next time.

wlau

gidgit
08-28-2002, 02:52 AM
haha, ambient, you are right of course... :D

one is a small poly modeler needing many more things of which ZBrush has to offer... :D

wlau... If my primary focus was on modeling I could think of quite a few apps I would rather work within... Wings may be a competent poly modeler, and may have a loyal following of sorts, but... is rather limited when one considers texturing, lighting, etc... this is a reality... Workflow man... that's what CG is all about, well that and creating of course... :D

Yea, I was off a bit in an apples and oranges manner of comparrison, but the reality still ends up suggesting that while one app is huge in potential for many different areas of CG, the other is very limited indeed...for now anyways... and should this reality change, well, I for one would be pleased to see such... :)

ambient-whisper
08-28-2002, 03:05 AM
and may have a loyal following of sorts, but... is rather limited when one considers texturing, lighting, etc... this is a reality... Workflow man... that's what CG is all about, well that and creating of course...

ugh.
:annoyed: :shame:
think about what you say... even on teh website it says wings is just a modeler... its like saying a car is limited because it cant fly like an airplane.. but the plane can drive too...and fly.. it comes down to how things work, and what is efficient... think... look at the zbrush interface. i know that it is hard to design an interface around 2.5d-3d. and they did a fairly good job at it. but its cluddered compared to wings. try to flatten an area in zbrush like in wings... snap a certain section of your model to another... soon you will be able to save states of your model. so you can use magnet moves and then reset a section of a model to a saved shape easily and very accurately. inside wings you work on teh exact cage. you get it exactly as clean as you want...and you can alwasy go down to the edge level and place a single edge if you want to make an efficient model. its ACCURACY that zbrush will give you lots of trouble with. and then youll rethink your statements about workflow and such.

now this whole time im not saying that zbrush 1.5 isnt good. hell i love the idea and want to definitely dive into the software soon. but i know where its limitations lie since its PAINT based. and know where ill need other software to get me through the fact.

gidgit
08-28-2002, 03:59 AM
hehe... I love it when people suggest to others "think"

think about what you say... even on teh website it says wings is just a modeler

my point exactly... no argument here... :D

think... look at the zbrush interface. i know that it is hard to design an interface around 2.5d-3d. and they did a fairly good job at it. but its cluddered compared to wings

I find the interface in Wings as unintuitive as do many find the same with ZBrush... but ...during the learning curve I would rather have a few more options present than not... and when ya get used to how things work well I am sure you will find that the ZBrush interface is pretty customizable indeed...

That you folks like Wings this much is great... it's really the end result that truly counts... and if this tool does it for ya... fantastic...

In the 2d world I feel the same way about PhotoImpact as do most people feel about PhotoShop... I am all for using underdog products if they work for ya... In fact if I told you the app with which I do most of my poly modeling you would die rolling on the floor laughing... but hey... it worx for me... :D

yahooo... version ZBrush1.51 has arrived... one kick butt app for sure...

ambient-whisper
08-28-2002, 05:11 AM
i think the only reason why you are saying that its un-intuitive is because you havent learned to use it properly.

another example where you will fight with zbrush on. lets say you extruded something out of an object. and want to make that squared part of the object into a cylinder like. well select the top and bottom edgeloops...cut them so that you have more than 4 segments. ( cant make a circle out f 4 sides right ? :)
now scale down the edgeloops so they equalize themselves..and thus become circular. and scale back up.

how would you turn a rectangle into a cylinder in zbrush.?
end result...sure...but then once again. you fail to see where im going with this. wings is a modeler. you make models and export them into another application for whatever reasons. ( animation, rendering, texturing..whatever ) its a very dedicated app to a particular task, and does so well.
but zrush is more opened up. it does everything by PAINTING. while wings is a modeler where you MODEL. see. 2 different words. paint...model. :) the end result is dependant of what the app does. you can never expect wings to make a nice illustration as you cant expect zbrush to make a fine-tuned model to be used for animation, ( as in having a perfect edgeloop layout. )
or even a mechanical object where you have to make sure that your objects have as little wasted geometry as possible.

.wings isnt made to compete with zbrush. its there for people who like its workflow for modeling and it is indeed a good one. they would rather use that then use the modeling tools that are native to their application of choice.. or even accomplish certain tasks that might be daunting in the application they use.
once you understand how it works. i doubt youd say its un-intuitive. ( though it does need refinement in some areas still. also you have to remember that zbrush is 1.5 while wings is 0.97. meaning that it hasnt come to the point where the developer has sat down and only work on polishing up the application so its bug free. its still alpha/ beta. )

if its end results in MODELLING you want to compare. im sure i would come up with a few examples where you will have a bit of a hard time in accomplishing in zbrush, while in wings it will take you only a few steps/seconds. and then you will have a hard time in getting as clean of a result that you could get in wings within that same time.

by the way. im not even a wings user ;) i just play with it from time to time. but im aware fo what it can do.

Fuzer
08-28-2002, 05:36 AM
Just wanted to chime in with my vote of confidence in Wings, and back up what Ambient ( :bowdown: ) is saying :)

I have been using LightWave since 5.6, and have always (and still do) love it's modeler. I just downloaded Wings for the first time a few nights ago, and have been extremely impressed with it. I can't see myself ditching LightWave's modeler. But I can easily see myself making extensive use of Wings on future projects.

I think Wings would get a lot more respect if they charged a couple hundred bucks for it.... I know I always rolled my eyes at the thought of using it 'till I got bored enough to actually try it :p

It is a quick download, and I would urge everyone to give it a shot the next time you are feeling adventurous :D

gidgit
08-28-2002, 05:55 AM
modeling a house perhaps (joking) ;) ;)

but...

for organic modeling the new ZSphere approach is pretty quick indeed... like what Organica does, or Softy3D, only easier to use and within a much more robust app... and yes, you can import your 3D models in dxf or obj formats, continue to model, adding onto your mesh, subtracting from it...deform em...bla bla, and yes the models rotate in 3D ...paint em up, and export back into your fav 3D app... this app is meant to speed up the modeling process for concept creation and does that and more... man, there is so much this app can do... and with someone that has much more experience with it than I do... well, it's wild... I have seen some of the worx some folks have done with this app and it blows me away...

and hey, it is meant to use alone or with your favorite 2/3D apps... use what ever suits your fancy... I do :D

but, just to be fair, I will give wings another go... just don't expect anything out of this world... I am such a rookie... :D or is that a ludite... :D... gidges arms are twisted back and gidge rolls over in submission... hehe

You guys in sales somewhere by any chance?

haha..

ambient-whisper
08-28-2002, 06:04 AM
ok youve missed some of my point more than once now. so i think i will stop with this post.

although you did say yourself. its good for painting on models..and concept. which is one of the points i was getting at. wings isnt made for that.

when you need to quickly switch between XYZ and its negative views, aim your view at a selected vertex/face/edge, bevel, make a single edge...split edgerings, squish your model volumetrically, bridge parts together...turn edges when you are working around videogames, because you need to use your edges as efficiently for videogames as possible to try to get contours that are meaningful ...flatten areas on any axis you can think of accurately, snap, use array, use magnets in combination with move/scale/rotate on either face/edge/vertex to achieve radically different effects, duplicate regions of your model allign one area of a model with another model....

these are the times where you will want to use something like wings and not zbrush. because the reality of the situation is, if you are working in the industry, you need to put out clean work for others to work with. for animation your model needs to have a good topology layout to deform well, to make character setup easier, or to make UV-ing easier. its because for animation/ rendering you have to take into consideration a ton of things. and its these things that you will have to look to other applications to fill the gap for you. and if you are doing animation then technically you done even need the lighting and rendering tools that are provided with zbrush.

you said it yourself. made for organic modeling, and concept work.
( actually i think this can be expanded to props as well ) since props can usually be heavy in detail, dont need to deform, and for animation you can substitute the actual prop object with a simpler representation until you need to do your final rendering.

( theres a bit more to 3d than rotating a model and being able to import/export like you said in your post.)

made this post before seeying your edited post ;)
and as for sales...not really. but marketing...somewhat with mirai ;)haha

gidgit
08-28-2002, 07:30 AM
haha, I just wanna tell you there ambient, that it is folks like you that make hobby people like me thankful for the web...

This (Wings) is a great little tool to compliment ZBrush, and/or any other fav app...

Wow, I have managed to learn more in the past hour thanx to your patience, than I have for quite some time...

thanx man... I will go now and play some more... :D

rok
08-28-2002, 08:09 AM
Oooooooh

Another happy ending

thedaemon
08-29-2002, 01:38 AM
Only comment I shall say is, get your facts straight before you dis another app. That's silly. People can go on forever argueing which app is better. Does it really matter?:shrug: I use wings for modeling almost everything. But I also use Max for modeling too. They new Zbrush looks great, but the older versions of Zbrush were very limited when trying to do low poly work/full characters. I will try the demo version when it comes out, but dont expect me to change to Zbrush. As for wings just being a modeler, it has just begun. Wait for it. ;)

gidgit
08-29-2002, 08:39 PM
hey daemon... get up to speed eh... I have already changed up somewhat, thanx to the wonderful attitude of a few helpful members here...

I too feel that this app has lots of promise...

as for interface stuff...

here's a pic of how much ZBrush's interface can be customized... hit tab and the menu shown here disappears as well... ( please keep in mind here that this is a shot of the 1.23 demo version thus the work area is limited to 640x480... the full version would be the whole anchaloda... ), but ya, you can make the work area as you like...

and version 1.51 allows to define skin colors etc as well... too cool..

oh yea, painting in progress shown within is a concept doodle for a new robo critter I am working on... lot's of doodling to go, then modeling... fun fun fun... :D

Fuzer
08-29-2002, 09:20 PM
Hey Gidgit-- Glad to hear you gave Wings a shot :thumbsup:

I am looking forward to the ZBrush 1.5 demo! I know I will probably be putting it pretty high on my wish list.

btw: Something that took me a while to stumble across in Wings was the magnet mode within the Tweak mode. Go into tweak mode and press "1", then check out the options at the bottom of the screen...... Sorry if thats old news :)

And HERE (http://pub33.ezboard.com/fnendowingsmiraifrm17.showMessage?topicID=183.topic) is a thread started by a ZBrush user I'm sure you will recognize. It's in the Wings forum.

ambient-whisper
08-29-2002, 11:44 PM
heres a tutorial that describes what i meant :) good usage of more than one app together.

http://www.brilliant-creations.com/zbrushtutorial.htm

gidgit
08-30-2002, 12:12 AM
Brilliant, right on... a very good iluustration indeed... it would be great to see some of the ZScripts illustrated here on the latest version 1.51... and the techniques each applies right on through to the animation in fav apps... quite the project I suppose... but one at a time would be cool... in fact the ZSperes modeling approach is enough to warrant it with a seperate form, thus encouraging some of the ZFanatics to place worx, zscripts etc.. here for all to see... :D :D

Hey thanx for the links folks... :beer:

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