WIP: Amazonian muddy waters, with piranhas

[STRAT]

top marks for atmos, water, caustics and lighting/colour, but i dont know about the other bits.

those balls and rectangular faces floating about in there put me right off the image. and those tree stumps look a tad too straight and sharp - not natural enough.

and you sure thats a piranah? only i thought they were short, stubby and more disc like in shape

[iladi]

i am afraid i wasn't to clear, my fault. there is absolutely no serious modeling in the scene. the trees are just plain cylinders, the fish is an old one i model some time ago and the spheres are there just to study the shadows caustics and speculars. i was started backwards: first the lighting and later the modeling.

[jamiearonson]

I like the lighting that you have, but I don't think that it matches your description of what you are trying to acheive. I would think that muddy, murky waters would not let as much light through. It seems as though your sun is a bit overpowering and the volumetric as well and the lumination of the light would fall off very quickly as it penetrated the water.

I would also check the color of the sun, I don't know what time of day you are shooting for, but IMHO I think the sun should more white and less yellow. I like the idea of the stuff floating in the water, I think if you mixed some browish noise into another volumetric light underwater with no illumination that it would show some of the stirred up sand from the bottom of the the river.

Just some ideas. I like the look so far.

[iladi]

OK, more dirty there is. still no much modeling in the scene :(

http://www.interactiv.rdsor.ro/pictures/piranha2.jpg

[malthus]

Looks superb! Can't wait for the piranhas to make an appearance:thumbsup:

[jamiearonson]

That looks better. still think the sun is a little intense. Not sure if it is too bright or just too focused. The muddy water looks really good though. Are you using an environment or volumetrics for the water? I really like the big root looking things in the scene. Lets see some real models in there. Keep em comin.

[iladi]

that's a photo i took for reference (i shot the tv screen, sorry for the quality, but i throw away the VCR), so i don't think the sun is too bright. maybe now, it's a bit undersaturated but i like it more this way. as for the water i use both volumetric light(s) and environment color with fog.

[bobzilla]

I think the water "surface" (from underneath) looks great! The dirt that was added is too uniform in shape, though...all rectangles.

Maybe start working on the river bottom surface. That will play a lot into the lighting. I'm assuming you're going to make that not quite as sandy looking??

Looks great, though.

[iladi]

yes, you are right regarding the shape of the dirt, but for the moment is just a plain emiter. my intention is to use a TP Multishape Emitter and use some more and elaborated shapes. and no, it will not be sandy bottom at all. i was already done some tests with hairdepartment to use as grass and i think it will be looking OK

[iladi]

still don't get the piranhas so far, hard to catch them ;) -a very bussy part of the year for me. but pretty much done with the atmosphere. maybe some grass fibers hanging on the roots. and anything you may want to suggest.

http://www.interactiv.rdsor.ro/pictures/piranha3.jpg

[Rass]

looks nice good work!!

[iladi]

oh, come on guys, nothing to say?

at least some help with the fish:

1. i was thinking to add a big fish in the front, with a bone harpoon/arow in it (let's say a local weapon)

or

2. a half eaten fish, bleading

and for both proposals, in the second plane, a bunch of piranhas.

or maybe you, guys have other proposals?

[malthus]

I vote for the half-eaten fish - if you can get the wisps of blood in the water right, then that would look outstanding. Somehow I can't imagine the weapon scenario - the image might be confusing without context (i.e. the weapon-wielder!).

[bobzilla]

Is it going to be a still or animation? If animated, then maybe a large fish swims into frame slightly toward camera, then gets speared from above. You can show the fish wiggling and the blood fill the water.

Gruesome, but it probably happens veryday there so the people can eat.

If still, maybe a bunch (school?...spelling) of pirhana eating a larger fish. you can show the fish pieces floating around and a cloud of blood and fish parts.

[RogerNobs]

I think it's stunningly beautiful and one of the best renders I seen with C4D. Nothing to add you'll do it better than me anyway.
Roger

[elagman]

Im speechless this is very good. :thumbsup: This is one of the most realistic scenes I have seen on this forum for such a challenging enviornment to visualize.

I like the idea of the half eaten fish. Maybe you could do a shot where the piranah is coming right at the camera with half the victim fish, or a piece of it in his mouth. Then in the background show what is left of the wounded flailing fish and blood is in the background with maybe a bit of depth of field added. Also in the background you could show some of the victim fishe's buddys swimming away for their lives. This would be a very dynamic image if you did that. That might be too much to fit in. Just my 2 cents. Very good though keep it up cant wait to see how this progresses.

[rendermania]

The scene could use some more texture detail, maybe some glittering billboard plankton floating in the water (texture with alpha transparency mapped onto sprites shaped like poly squares). A detailed/well textured fish would help focus the scene, as would DOF and GI if you have access to them, and you could use something like Digital Film Lab in post to give the scene a more diffuse quality.

How about sticking a human artifact into the undergrowth in the scene? Maybe a shoe or a license plate? Or some garbe floating at the water surface, like a half submerged, transparent nylon bag.

[iladi]

wow, thanx alot for suggestions and apreciation guys.

@malthus: half-eaten will be

@bobzilla: is going to be a still, the render took more than 20 minutes, to much for animation. i also don't have the skils, never done an animation biger than placing object into emitters in my life :(.

@ roger: you are to kind

@ elagman: this is exactly what i had in mind, let's see if i can do it well

@rendermania: very, very usefull suggestions, i'll follow them. what do you mean by "more texture detail"? -the textures i used so far? as for the glittering plancton, i use highlights for the floating debris and in the background there is some, but nothing in the front, don't know why; maybe because all the light came from behind? although DOF will help the realism of the scene, i was not considering GI for this scene been usefull. in what areas do you think this will improve the looking? the shadows, maybe?

[iladi]

i finaly got the fish.

and a question: if (just if) i'd like to make real (modeled) flakes, how can i attach them to the body?

http://www.interactiv.rdsor.ro/pictures/fish2.jpg

[JIII]

nice clean mesh on that fish, btw what do you mean by "flakes"

[AdamT]

I guess he means scales. Theoretically you could use a plugin like Place on Points, but I certainly wouldn't recommend using separate objects for the scales, as it's a perfect application for a bump map (or worst-case, displacement).

[JIII]

if you mess around with bhodinut enough you should be able to find it.

http://www.metafex.net/~j3/scales.jpg

That's an image of some kinda scaley things that I did once. I did it by duplicating the file and making a transparent layer and a color layer to the object. However you probably don't need to go that far as for one. the guys in low light and for two, you can't see a fishes scales when it's wet and in the water it looks rather smooth :-)

[DCB]

Nice work. Seeing as I'm primarily a biologist/ecologist (3D is just a hobby for me), I'll throw in my 2c on your model. Assuming you are modelling a red bellied piranha (the species most people are familiar with) then there are some small adjustments that need to be made. The head and jaw need to be somewhat more square and blunt. The pectoral fin needs to be moved forward to just behind the gill slit. The bones in the fins also need to be less prominant. Finally, the body shape is a little too disc-like and symmetrical. Good reference photos are hard to find but here is one that should aid you -


http://www.bluemorphotours.com/image/picture/flora_fauna/red_belly_piranha.jpg

[iladi]

wow, qiuck answers

@ JIII: bloody online translators :D, i guess is "scales" as adam points. your image is very inspiring.

@ adam: it was rather retorical. unfortunately i have to try my best and do some clever texturing

@ DCB: thanx for pointing out my modeling errors. i have used a skech as a reference, but i guess it was not the best one.

[neilyb]

Heres one I did earlier :-) Ok its cartoony rather than real but I think using Bhodi nut tiles and proximal (to shade the white areas on the belly) you can achieve a real enough effect, especially as the lighting will mask some of the detail! The fins testures were done in PS but otherwise this is all procedural. For your Pirhana I would use a small square tiles texture mapped at a 45° angle. They have very small scales so the details are less important!!

http://www.neilyb.de/fishFour.jpg

[flyingP]

and a question: if (just if) i'd like to make real (modeled) flakes, how can i attach them to the body?

with one hell of a lot of time and patience I would Imagine :surprised . Zbrush and SPD would be one of the better routes IMO if you have those options

[neilyb]

with one hell of a lot of time and patience I would Imagine :surprised . Zbrush and SPD would be one of the better routes IMO if you have those options I don't want to argue or start anything but considering the size of the scales on the Pirhana I don't think displacement is necessary. Perhaps on the fins and gill covers where there are obvious bumps but the scales are TINY! Just a small bump, Procedural if you like, and some spectral / colours in the enviroment to give scaly reflection.

[flyingP]

I don't want to argue or start anything but considering the size of the scales on the Pirhana I don't think displacement is necessary.

Oh I don't know there's nothing like a good argument now and then :D you're quite right though....I'm just digging Zbrush at the moment :D

[neilyb]

Me kind of liking SPD (isn't that a kind of Shimano pedal?) at the moment.

[iladi]

ok, the shape is reshaped as DCB suggested (i hope :D)
now, i have to reveal my photoshop skills and do a good texture :D

http://www.interactiv.rdsor.ro/pictures/new%20fish.jpg

[DCB]

Not bad. The mouth still needs to be a little sqaurer I think (imagine that it ran head first into a brick wall!). Can you show a side view so we can get a better look at it's profile?

[iladi]

here it is:

http://www.interactiv.rdsor.ro/pictures/wires.jpg

[DCB]

Ah cheers - that makes it much easier to assess the mesh. I would say the mouth/head still needs a little work (as per my last post), and the body needs to be a bit thinner - maybe only half as wide. Also the body still seems a little too disc-shaped.

I must say however that the texture is looking great! Would love to see a render of that. Maybe just a touch more red/orange on the belly though? Sorry if I'm being too picky :P All in all very nice work.

[iladi]

so sorry, DCB but the fish is not textured, yet. the image is just the reference picture i used for modeling, so as far as the basic shape i think i'm OK. concerning the head and mouth, yes, there is a little more work to be done (especialy the teeth), but there are so many variants of piranhas in the references over the net so i think that the texture will mask the remaining errors. anyway, i stop modeling (maybe i continue later the teeth) and start fighting with UV maping (a heavy fight :D)

[bobzilla]

Looking great! It looks like you'll be able to use your reference pic for textures. If that's the case, you're halfway home with you're texturing process.

Nice clean mesh, too. Maybe Cactus Dan can help you ut with the fish rig.

It's good to have a scientific advisor on call, eh? Wish I had one when I do my dinosaurs. ;)

[iladi]

Looking great! It looks like you'll be able to use your reference pic for textures. If that's the case, you're halfway home with you're texturing process.

only if i know how. for my former jobs i was using mainly procedurals, and it was easy to map them ;). now it's the firs time i want to use bitmaps and is a pain to map them. yes it was easy to flat-map the reference (it' s also easy to correct it in some aspects) but on the forehead and other places the texture wraps ugly and i dont know how to fix this :(

http://www.interactiv.rdsor.ro/pictures/why.jpg

[Venkman]

Add another texture with alpha maps using a different projection, or unwrap the thing in bodypaint.

[bobzilla]

Yeah, not sure what your UVs look like, but do what Venkman says. Try projecting from the top.

I would use the old checkered tex to check things all over then applay the texture.

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