What codec?

[tcastudios]

I want good quality and good compression.

That's what we all want :)
Encoding is an art in itself. As for QT and Divx, if your friends bother to download it for QT they are all set.
http://www.soft32.com/download_75202.html

Cheers
Lennart

[paulselhi]

Well the DivX codec is free so why not d/l it ? in my opinion DivX makes for the best compression/quality renders. It does howver have a rather complex set of options that i really don't understand but i really don't think i need to !!

[3dg]

I have been a QT evangelist for years...most people don't use it properly. They link directly to the file (i.e. myreel.mov) instead of embedding it into html and giving it proper parameters for almost instant playback, etc.....blah blah...anyway, very recently (2 days ago) I bought the pro version of the Sorenson Spark codec for Flash. Yep. Flash. Stop laughing...it looks AWESOME. the filesize is small, it plays almost instantly, and Flash is about 98% ubiquitous (spelling). So most people will never need to download the plugin. Movies are also protected from downloading by default.

Here's a sample if ya care to look at the quality.

flv sample (http://ingleinteractive.com/feature10/)

click on the last thumbnail - the one with the flashvideo icon in it.

If you'd like to see what the "non-pro-built-into-flash codec that everyone tries to use" looks like, click in the white area just to the right of the last thumbnail. You'll see what most people do with flash video...that's the encoder built into flash.

Also of note...in Flash player 8, there will be an even nicer codec added...smaller files and prettier quality.

Ok...i'll stop preaching now.

Enjoy!

Gary

[ooo]

Well 3DG, the picture quality is great, but the playback of your movie (and sound) is not smooth at all for me. Sorry to say that. I have a high speed (ADSL) connection so that cannot be the problem. Is everybody else having a smooth experience?

odo

[Uncle-Ox]

I'm affraid I have to disagree with the DivX and Quicktime fellas.

(Everything I'm about to say is my personal opinion built on trial and error so please take it at face value.)

Firstly, with quicktime there's always new codecs being developed and hence you always have to tell your clients or, in this case, your friends to download something in order to view your movie. It just doesn't feel right :)

When I researched all the different formats, I came to believe that DivX in itself is a hack and as such is prone to all sorts of glitches. (lovely compression ratio though it has.) If you do any kind of professional video editing I cannot stress enough that having DivX on your computer isn't a good idea. I've tested it with a variety of editing software and DivX caused severe instability in most of these editing software. I, personally, would rather have a Mamba bite me than have DivX on any of my computers ever again. There was only 1 piece of editing software it didn't effect in the least. It was a free piece of software of which the name evades me now but that one rendered so slowly in any case that the juice certainly wasn't worth the squeeze.

I don't know MAC at all so I'm not sure if you can view these on them so I won't vouch for this working on MAC but I strongly recommend Mpeg1. I don't see why MACs wouldn't be able to play them though as they are the standard format for VCD.

Mpeg1's compression ratio is good to fair and, I'm sorry, but I have yet to be convinced that Quicktime or DivX has better image quality or smoothness of playback (especially on older computers). Since Mpeg1 is a format in itself it doesn't have codecs which you have to download in order to play it. As far as Windows computers are concerned, Mpeg1 has been playable on the standard Windows Media Player since Windows 95.

Another benefit of Mpeg1 is the fact that the bitrate is truly constant and hence you will not run into the type of scenario where some frames are picture perfect and others are pixelated beyond recognision. ...a flaw I've seen great many a times with both Quicktime and DivX.

That's just my 2cents.

[3dg]

Well 3DG, the picture quality is great, but the playback of your movie (and sound) is not smooth at all for me. Sorry to say that. I have a high speed (ADSL) connection so that cannot be the problem. Is everybody else having a smooth experience?

odo
Really? Everyone I've had test it has had a very pleasant experience. Now this was my first Flash movie to compress in this way...so I might could stand to back off on the data rate a bit.

Would you mind giving me your machine specs?

I would really appreciate it. I've been doing video for multimedia and web for about 7 years now, and so far I'm very impressed with what Sorenson Spark can do.

I may give the compression another try with some lower settings. I will try to post in this thread if i do.

@Uncle Ox The only reason people would have to download a new QT is if the movies are encoded with any of the newer codecs like Mpeg4. I have been using Sorenson 3 forever...not the crappy built in one, but the pro version. Used properly it can do quick start playback and looks really good. It's a fine line we walk to show the best quality we can and not require people to keep downloading new plugins or codecs. This is the very reason why I'm so excited about the .flv format. Flash is not going away. It easily has the highest installation base of any web plug-in because it is installed by default on many browsers. And it is relatively new to the video arena, so it's only gonna get better. I remember when QT first came out. The movies were TINY. I laughed and thought who would ever use that? But look at what can be done now. Anyway...i'm rambling...

I don't disagree about mpeg1...but i don't use it just out of sheer habit. I used to do a lot of cross platform CD-ROM work, and mpeg1 was not readily playable in QT at the time (i'm showing my age now...LOL)

Gary

[ooo]

Really? Everyone I've had test it has had a very pleasant experience. Now this was my first Flash movie to compress in this way...so I might could stand to back off on the data rate a bit.

Would you mind giving me your machine specs?

I would really appreciate it. I've been doing video for multimedia and web for about 7 years now, and so far I'm very impressed with what Sorenson Spark can do.

I may give the compression another try with some lower settings. I will try to post in this thread if i do.

Gary

My machine is a G5 dual 2.5 with 3gb ram. I tried it with 3 different browsers. I will later today try it again with my Vaio laptop to see if that makes a difference...

odo

[ooo]

Ok I couldn't resist to try on my Vaio right away and guess what: smooth as a babyskin! Hmmm, why would the G5 playback not be the same quality?

[zoetropeuk]

Ok I couldn't resist to try on my Vaio right away and guess what: smooth as a babyskin! Hmmm, why would the G5 playback not be the same quality?

I just tried it on my Dual 2Ghz G5 and it's perfect. Are you sure that G5 isn't rendering in the background or something ?

[ooo]

I just tried it on my Dual 2Ghz G5 and it's perfect. Are you sure that G5 isn't rendering in the background or something ?

No other applications are open. So now you made it my problem ;)
I have no idea why this is happening...

[Jorge Arango]

No other applications are open. So now you made it my problem ;)
I have no idea why this is happening...

I'm on a 2.0 G5, 128K ADSL, Safari and it's stuttering. No rendering in the background.


Jorge Arango

[AdamT]

Playback was smooth as butter and almost instantaneous on my dual Xeon 2.4. Very impressive.

So do you have to have Flash software in order to use this codec/encoded movies, or can it be used standalone?

[rikke]

I have very good experience with windows media 9 codec, but it leaves most MAc users with just an error message.

Question: I have a bunch of .jpg files which are part of an animation. Which freeware tool could you recommend to stitch them together to an .mpg of .mov file? Now I use Virtualdubmod, but it can only output .divx or .avi movies

[3dg]

Very interesting guys. Please don't take this wrong, because I swear to you I am a Mac advocate and have used them for years. However...the Macs still do not render Flash as quickly as PC's I do not know why...but for some reason I thought the Flash video would be different. Guess I was wrong. I will try with some different settings later today. Maybe you will check it out for me on those Macs that stuttered with it?

@AdamT: You need Flash or someone who has it to make a player. Then you could just pass all of your movies to this player via the query string if they are all the same size...or with a little bit of scripting, you could pass it movies of any size and have it dynamically adjust. Some people are dropping FLV files directly into dreamweaver with embed tags...but your server has to be configured to pass flvs to the flash plugin.

[3dg]

I hope I'm not offending anyone by keeping this slightly off-topic thread going...

Anyway, those of you who were having trouble...could you clear your cache and try it again?

I've added a 3 second buffer to it rather than recompressing at lower bitrate. (I will still recompress later, but i was curious if this would help the issue)

with 3 second buffer (http://ingleinteractive.com/feature10/)

(It's the last thumbnail...the one with the Flashvideo icon in it)

Gary

[Jorge Arango]

I hope I'm not offending anyone by keeping this slightly off-topic thread going...

Anyway, those of you who were having trouble...could you clear your cache and try it again?

I've added a 3 second buffer to it rather than recompressing at lower bitrate. (I will still recompress later, but i was curious if this would help the issue)

with 3 second buffer (http://ingleinteractive.com/feature10/)

(It's the last thumbnail...the one with the Flashvideo icon in it)

Gary

After empying the cache, the video plays smoothly for a few seconds then stops for a few more then plays for a few more and so on. The behavior of the other video (blank thumbnail) is the same and was also stuttering before emptying the cache.

I would prefer to have play-pause-stop controls like with quicktime so you can wait until the video is downloaded and then play to see it full lenght.

BTW, how much costs the Sorenson software?

Thank you

Jorge Arango

[3dg]

Jorge,

Thanks for trying it...there's a lot to be said about field testing :)

As far as the play controls...yes there is a media component built into flash, or I could make my own like these guys did:

These guys rock (http://www.psyop.tv/)

Have I officially hijacked this thread? Ooops. sorry about that.

Sorenson Squeeze for Flash only is $99. Or you can get the suite which compresses for many different formats for $399.

G

[jonmartensen]

Let's see, I'll just give a little run down of what I can remember about codecs.

MPEG-1 - If you want compatibility (something most anyone on any computer can play), you'll want to go with MPEG 1. You don't get nearly the quality to size ratio of others methods of encoding, but most everyone out there will be able to view it. As you go for a lower file size it gets rather blocky.

MPEG-2 - That's what is on most DVDs. Very nice quality, but the file size is huge for that quality and does not lend itself well to internet distribution.

Divx - quickly becoming a common compression method, anyone out there who downloads fansubbed anime (or rips of movies) will have this codec installed. You get a great compression ratio and with the multiple settings you can adjust for optimal compression depending on how much motion your scenes will contain and how much solid color (cartoon/cel shaded vs realistic with particles/moving grass and such).

Xvid - Not quite as common as Divx, but also growing in use. Great compression, some consider it better than Divx.

3ivx - Don't use it :p

WMV - Has good compression but don't use this if you want non-Windows users to be able to view it easily.

Quick time Sorenson - Sexy playback for online use. Embeddable with compression near Divx/Xvid quality. If your friends have ever watched a movie preview online, then they probably won't need to download anything to watch a quicktime file that you make.

RV9 - great compression but not as easy to view for <i>all</i> users. Some don't like the Real Media software that gets installed for decoding/encoding. You can get it as just a codec (couldn't previously) but it's more complicated than installing Divx/Xvid.


If you are going to have the file up for people to download, I'd suggest either Divx/Xvid. If you want it viewable embedded in a web page definitely go with quicktime. If you know people that are Mac users and people that are Windows users and neither are computer savy at all, use MPEG-1.




As a side note to editing with video, DO NOT use any codec that has keyframes when editing. Not being able to edit keyframed video, such as Divx, is not an indicator of the quality of the codec. If you are going to edit video, use something like <a href="http://neuron2.net/www.math.berkeley.edu/benrg/huffyuv.html">huffyuv</a>, where every frame is a keyframe.

[ooo]

Thanks for this overview Jon! I was wondering why is Mpeg1 not better supported? Ok, it's possible to render straight from C4D to mpeg1, but if you want to export from a compositing app like AE or FCP or QTpro there is no option for Mpeg1, only Mpeg 2 and 4. So why is this and what's the best app to encode in?

odo

[jonmartensen]

One of the methods I would recommend when saving an animation that you've made would be to save it in a 'lossless' format. You would save the lossless file and then encode copies of it with any codec later on. You could do this by saving as either an uncompressed or huffyuv encoded avi file. You can then open the file in a program like VirtualDub or TMpeg Enc and make an encode into most any codec that's contained in the AVI format or as an Mpeg-1 or Mpeg-2 file. But this is more Windows-centric.

By the programs you mention I'd venture to guess that you're on a Mac. I'm not a Mac user, and I've never really played around with it, but I think there is also an uncompressed or some such format with QT for saving video in a lossless format (maybe, I don't know for sure). I'd suggest asking around about saving video in a lossless format and programs made specifically for encoding said files to Mpeg-1.

All this 'lossless' video, of course, requires a fair bit of HD space (or filling up a DVD or 2 every now and then) but I think it is worth it if you can do it. You get the benefit of having to render your animation only one time, giving you a source to do multiple different encodes from, and sometimes more control in the encoding process.



Mpeg-4 is an audio/video standard format just like Mpeg-2 and Mpeg-1. Divx and Xvid files are Mpeg-4 streams, as is AAC audio. Also, the newer codecs are more processor intensive. An older computer should play Mpeg-1 files with ease, but may easily barf when trying to process more recent QT and Mpeg-4 based codecs.

[jonmartensen]

Ah, I just checked and the Animation codec under Quicktime is lossless. If there are lots of solid colors (along the lines of 2d animation or cell shading) you get decent compression over uncompressed video, but if it's a complex scene you get very little compression.

[Uncle-Ox]

Hi

I agree with Jon that you should export to a lossless format first. I personally prefer to render as an image sequence such as TGA's (Could also be TIF's or BMP's etc.) which I can use "as is" with Media Studio Pro because it has a function which compiles a little reference file which you then use as if it were an AVI or some other video format.

I don't have QT Pro as I don't like the format very much but I gather from this link: http://forums.macosxhints.com/archive/index.php/t-2262.html that one can use QT Pro to merge Image sequence files into various different formats.

I will mention one main pro and one main con to using an image sequence:
Pro: If you're rendering quite a large project, rendering an image sequence will safeguard you against electrical power dips and black outs because you can just continue from where you stopped, knowing exactly from which frame to start rendering again.
Con: To keep the images lossless, you will need a VAST amount of diskspace (appr 4-6GB per minute for Full Frame PAL). I'm not a big TIF user so I'm not sure how LZW compression effects the quality of the image but for images, compression usually means quality loss.

Render lossless and add compression afterwards, just as Jon said.

[ooo]

Hi, I always render lossless so thats not my problem. Rendering to tiff images and merge them in QTpro is what I mostly do. I was just wondering why there is no mpeg1 support in most Pro-apps when it's so usefull as Jon says. As I work mostly for DVD-output I don't have a problem, but when I have to deliver for other purposes i am interested to know what other options there are. The Sorensen spark option that 3dg suggested is looking very good. AVI with divX encoding works great for inclusion in win ppt to my experience. I would also like to try the mpeg1 encoding but don't how how do it, because it's not available in the apps I'm using (on OSX).

odo

[basilisk]

Jorge,

Thanks for trying it...there's a lot to be said about field testing :)

As far as the play controls...yes there is a media component built into flash, or I could make my own like these guys did:

These guys rock (http://www.psyop.tv/)

Have I officially hijacked this thread? Ooops. sorry about that.

Sorenson Squeeze for Flash only is $99. Or you can get the suite which compresses for many different formats for $399.

G

If you have Flash MX 2004 Pro then you get a compressor that does 2 pass variable bit rate compression straight out of After Effects (Premiere etc) without having to buy the Sorensen package - It has a very good compression/quality ratio. I have had problems with Mac playback not being smooth, I blame the Mac version of the Flash plugin. But some people seem to get it to work - try nexusproductions.com for some more examples. The main problem is the cost and learning curve involved. Great if you want video on a professional website, otherwise probably not very practical.

[ooo]

Regarding the Flash player options, I just was pointed to news about the nexgen Flashplayer. Looking very promising!

http://www.moock.org/blog/archives/000146.html

odo

[tcastudios]

I was just wondering why there is no mpeg1 support in most Pro-apps when it's so usefull as Jon says./// I would also like to try the mpeg1 encoding but don't how how do it, because it's not available in the apps I'm using (on OSX).

odo

I use Cleaner for mpeg1 encodeing. On a G5 its very fast. As for why its not included in most pro apps, my guess its a licence thing..

Cheers
Lennart

[AndyMcc]

Jorge,



These guys rock (http://www.psyop.tv/)


G
Thanks for posting that link. Now I can turn off my computer and go get a real job.

[ooo]

I use Cleaner for mpeg1 encodeing. On a G5 its very fast. As for why its not included in most pro apps, my guess its a licence thing..

Cheers
Lennart

Cleaner, thats the one! I'll give it a try, thanks!

odo

[Rapier8]

I thank all of you for posting your comments and help but i don't have the time right now to read them because i'm just waiting for the new episode of "Desperate Housewives" and i have about 5 minutes, hehe. I think the best way, for me, would be to put it in a flash. I don't know how to use flash mx and was wondering if it is possible to put a movie, with a reasonable low file size, in a flash animation without any extra software.

[3dg]

If you have Flash MX 2004 Pro then you get a compressor that does 2 pass variable bit rate compression straight out of After Effects (Premiere etc) without having to buy the Sorensen package - It has a very good compression/quality ratio. I have had problems with Mac playback not being smooth, I blame the Mac version of the Flash plugin. But some people seem to get it to work - try nexusproductions.com for some more examples. The main problem is the cost and learning curve involved. Great if you want video on a professional website, otherwise probably not very practical.
Yeah...it's funny you mention the Flash Pro and After Effects connection. I just found that the night I ordered Sorenson Squeeze. (D'oh!) But my tests show that it is still nowhere near the good quality/small filesize that Squeeze makes. But you are right it is another option that could be used without spending more money. My thought was that $100 is worth it for me to put high quality video that instantly streams and that 98% of visitors could see without downloading a plugin. I will have to do more testing to get the right bitrate for best range of audience, or i may encode 3 or 4 versions and write a script to test viewers' connection speed as well as checking platform and then stream the appropriate file. I think this is the best solution for me. I realize it is not for everyone, but I like it very much.

Gary

[3dg]

Regarding the Flash player options, I just was pointed to news about the nexgen Flashplayer. Looking very promising!

http://www.moock.org/blog/archives/000146.html

odo
Yes. it looks awesome. And video with alpha support? that's crazy! Now since it does real time post effect filters, I'm hoping someone will write a real time keyer so we can do some cool stuff with virtual environments.

[3dg]

I thank all of you for posting your comments and help but i don't have the time right now to read them because i'm just waiting for the new episode of "Desperate Housewives" and i have about 5 minutes, hehe. I think the best way, for me, would be to put it in a flash. I don't know how to use flash mx and was wondering if it is possible to put a movie, with a reasonable low file size, in a flash animation without any extra software.
I don't know if this applies to all versions of Flash (I have MX 2004 Pro), but you should be able to just create a new document, select the empy keyframe at frame 1, hit ctrl+r on PC or command+r on Mac, and choose the movie file. Then a window will show up asking to embed or link the movie. choose embed. This will convert it to a spark encoded Flv file.

just adjust your Flash movie stage size to be the same as your imported movie, then change the fps to match the movie and you are finished.

This is NOT how I did my example however. I built a player (without controls) and I pass it a variable so I only had to build one flash .swf and i can feed all my .flv's to it. A little more involved with programming, but offers more control.

Anyway, hope that helps.

Gary

[Lonely Pixel]

hi there. I found this topic using the search tool :)


At the moment, I'm completely stressing out. I've filmed, captured and edited this movie for school with a few mates, which took me about 10 hours (I've never done anything like this before). The movie has to be done tomorrow, it just HAS TO BE DONE, it's an ultimate deadline. But the problem is; I can't get it out of Adobe Premiere Pro decently! HELP!

I figured that I could export it using File > Export > Movie.. . Going this way gives you a sh*tload of options and stuff. I tried rendering it as a Windows AVI file with all sorts of compression methods. Each method has it's problem; some give me crap sound (with loads of glitches and stuff), Others make the 5 min movie over 1.2 GB, and still give crap sound and some give shitty quality, bad sound ánd are over 1.2 GB. Exporting as Quicktime gives OK sound, but the quality is poor for me with fast moving parts of the film, and I don't know if my teacher can open Quicktime files.

Here are some screenshot of what options I've got. Please, please help me. I'm about to smash my keyboard.

http://members.home.nl/reinoudschuijers/001.jpg

http://members.home.nl/reinoudschuijers/002.jpg

http://members.home.nl/reinoudschuijers/003.jpg

http://members.home.nl/reinoudschuijers/004.jpg

http://members.home.nl/reinoudschuijers/005.jpg


Thanks in Advance!!


Edit: Oh i see now that this is the Cinema 4D forums. Sorry for posting a Premiere Problem, but still please help me! :D

[3dg]

sorry to dig this thread back up, but I was doing some research on pre-existing flv players and thought this might be of interest to those who want to use flash video but don't want to fool with programming their own player. It's inexpensive, looks great and the actual sample video is pretty nice (3D and compositing is nice)

an flvplayer (http://www.proxus.com/components/FLV_Player.php)

Gary

[AdamT]

Looks like a good deal for Flash owners, but still not the thing for those of us without.

Do you know anything about this product: http://www.wildform.com/flix/flix_pro.php?sid=%7BSESSION_ID%7D
I saw a review that said it's compression was comparable to Spark Pro. Comes with 20 or so movie players (actually 3-4 plus different colors) and outputs streaming .swf and .flv. It can also output .exe files which could be handy for some things.

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