Indian VFX: On the Verge of Breaking Out

[Per-Anders]

shame you have to have an account to read the article, can anyone post the full copy here? (the one quote given could be misleading as to all that is being said... at least I hope that no-one would ever seriously underate the artists and overate the tools that much, btw that would be maya with the make toy story button right?).

[lowkey]

ohh, sorry...i did not even think about that! :hmm:

I hope that no-one would ever seriously underate the artists and overate the tools that much

yeah, this is the essence of the articles' analysis of the local market. the technology is already there, but the infrastructure still needs a lot to become on par with western systems. 90% of the bollywood movies are flops and directors/producers do not even know about the processes involved in creating great VFX. There still seems to be a huge lack of communication between departments.

well, the article is 3 pages long and i do not know if it's hurting any copyrights to paste it here. it's been very interesting indeed! :p

btw, registration is free!

[superlayer]

I dont see why color of skin has anything to do with this.
And why should the same software and hardware equal same quality?

The great advantage that India has is loooooooooooow wages which means they can outsell any western production house price wise. Wether they can prevail quality wise remains to be seen.
I have seen some impressive work being done in a city called Shen Zhen (mainland china) next to Hong Kong. Pixar quality stuff coming out. I forgot the name of the company.

A problem with the low wages in India is already having an effect on my life. I work in freelance and with elance.com etc outsourcing everything to India there is little work to pick up unless you are willing to work for outragous low salaries.

:( But hopefully one day Indian wages will be on par with western wages and then the fight for work will be more equal. Anyways its good to see the development is going well in India.

[leigh]

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but the article really seems to give the impression that the Indian industry is actually really badly-organised, ill-established and lacking in decent leadership :surprised

[Signal2Noise]

shame you have to have an account to read the article, ...

RESPONSE REMOVED OUT OF RESPECT (AND SECURITY) FOR CGTALK AND THE MODS.

MDME_SADIE knows what I'm talking about! ;)

[ThE_JacO]

the skin color thing cracked me up.

last flick I worked on (in London), having a look at the 20 closest people, 2 were from pakistan, one from india, 2 were black english, one was black american, a couple english jews, 2 white americans, 1 ozzie, some germans, 2 eastern asians, one canadian/asian...

the english were a minority, and you could find the whole range of skintones, from toilette paper white to afro black.

no one single country can ever provide all the talent needed for large productions, so it always is the case that the largest proudctions focus around 3 or 4 geographical poles but put together people from EVERYWHERE.

the rest of the article was pretty bad too, it seemed constantly unable to decide if it wanted to promote india as a place with shops capable of offering the whole deal or if it wanted to bash on it.

[Per-Anders]

ooh neat, thanks Signal! now to read the full article\

hmm... yup i have to agree with previous posters on this, the article is not painting a picture of an industry ready to take on hollywood vfx houses. disorganised and lacking the far sight needed in order to rise above the mundane is how it comes off.

[kevb3d]

Fellow CGers,

I agree with Leigh here. The article, while pro-India in some respects, speaks more of an industry lacking the essentials to compete....for now. I also read an article recently, and I apologize for not being able to reference it here, that the infrastructure...meaning electrical grid, is strained in India now and is having trouble handling the growth. It will mean that the government will have to choose between spending a large amount of money on infrastructure, or feeding their poor.

Most of the article doesn't seem to boast that they are on top of their game. Optimism and exuberance are one thing, but production and deadlines are another. I'm all for India getting into graphics and animation, to serve their local markets. It's when they can undercut the Western countries by $50,000 USD per head that trade becomes unfair and our wages fail to support us.

With that said, we do it to ourselves. We can't blame India for wanting to better their quality of life, and we should support that drive to escape poverty. However, if we want to maintain our quality of life in these outrageously expensive Western countries, we must accept that we have to pay a little more for goods and services. Think about that next time you shop at Wal-Mart. The race to the bottom is our own fault as consumers and investors who pressure our companies to cut us fat dividends and perform on a quarterly basis. To do this, and appease us, they have to cut costs, and that is in the form of jobs and wages.

Again, just my thoughts, take it as you wish, and please, let's not start another war here.

Kev

[andy_maxman]

:( But hopefully one day Indian wages will be on par with western wages and then the fight for work will be more equal. Anyways its good to see the development is going well in India.
bite this -
- today's date
- animator's average salary - rs. 22000/- (approx. $500 usd, with $1 = rs. 50)
- works on an avg. 24 days in a month
- with an avg, of 9-11 hrs ( i'm sure my co-brothers will disagree saying those many
hours would be a blessing )
- comes to about rs. 90/hr or close to about $2/hr ( someone pls throw light as to what it
is internationally. i assume its around a min. of $8-10/hr. )

if things had to go as 'superlayer' hoped....trust me i would own a home, car and a beautiful wife ( well ok...i already have the last one ) in about 2 years time.


about the article - pathet*c

[outoftheboxirritation]

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but the article really seems to give the impression that the Indian industry is actually really badly-organised, ill-established and lacking in decent leadership :surprised

Now you yourself told the truth... remember leigh??? you banned me 2 times for telling the same truth that indian industry is badly organised....Now can u give me back my old "beyondreamz" id??? :cry:

This same "skin color" guy once commented that he could have done jurrassic park in a years time and blamed ILM for taking more time for "simple" work... :) :banghead: A true Jack@ss... who is thirsty for cheap publicity...

by the way, guys out there... Is there any vacancy for refugees from indian vfx industry to work in US studios..???:buttrock: I just want to get out of this stupid place asap before others talk more nonsense and spoil the whole name of Indians... I dont understand why most of the guys here say matrix was a f**kall movie and saving private ryan was full of violence and tom hanks dont know how to act... :hmm:

I hv no further comments for the time being...

[rendermania]

There is no reason why Indian VFX shouldn't catch up with the quality level set by Hollywood. They have a good education system, plenty of programmers/English speakers and access to the same web resources, training books/DVDs and animation/compositing tech the rest of us use. It may take a while until the management/organization side takes hold, but in terms of cost/manpower, India looks pretty good, especially with Internet 2 on the way (remember call centers and software outsourcing?). In fact it wouldn't surprise me if we eventually see a Maya or XSI manufactured entirely in India. VFX isn't all about talent - the required skills and digital artistry can be learned, and India has plenty of painters, sculptors, composers, choreographers and other artists working with traditional media as far as I know. It'll happen. probably just a matter of when rather than if.

[percydaman]

(remember call centers and software outsourcing?).

We're already starting to see some movement BACK to the US in those markets. WHY? The average joe and jane is tired of speaking with someone in India they can hardly understand. As others have said in the past, its a circle, where companies will outsource to other countries to save money, then eventually bring it back, when they finally see that it hurts them in the long run.

The CG market could be completely different, but we'll see.

[Gary2]

so they have the same computer equipment, who cares.

i dont care what the stuff was developed on, i just wanna see good visual effects:bounce:

[RobertoOrtiz]

OK a warning before this thread goes to hell in skates.
Keep it civil guys and ON TOPIC.

-R

[rocarpen]

so they have the same computer equipment, who cares.

i dont care what the stuff was developed on, i just wanna see good visual effects:bounce: Who cares? How about anyone who actually makes a living from CG? How about the majority of people on this board? This is a pretty serious issue!

Population of China: 1,298,847,624 (July 2004 est.)
Population of India: 1,065,070,607 (July 2004 est.)

There is a tidal wave of humanity out there, highly motivated, equipped with the same software and tools we have, and offering their services at a fraction what North American / Europeans will charge. Things are going to change.

As you say, most folks couldn't care less where the graphics and fancy pictures are made, no more than they sweat the source of their shoes, textiles, electronics, etc.

I wish Mandarin wasn't so goddamn hard to learn! :banghead:

[slaughters]

bite this -
- today's date
- animator's average salary - rs. 22000/- (approx. $500 usd, with $1 = rs. 50)
- works on an avg. 24 days in a month
- with an avg, of 9-11 hrs ( i'm sure my co-brothers will disagree saying those many
hours would be a blessing )
- comes to about rs. 90/hr or close to about $2/hr ( someone pls throw light as to what it
is internationally. i assume its around a min. of $8-10/hr. )
How much does montly rent cost you? How much for an average lunch? Cost of living is a big deal when you are talking salary (one reason I hope never to move to California)

P.S. 24 days a month and 9-11 hrs per day sounds about right for most salary paid jobs in America (this totally ignores commute time which is 10 hours a week for me). I beleive that CG related jobs have much longer hours.

[friendinlove]

P.S. 24 days a month and 9-11 hrs per day sounds about right for most salary paid jobs in America (this totally ignores commute time which is 10 hours a week for me). I beleive that CG related jobs have much longer hours.

Andy works in the best available company in India....

[WhiteRabbitObj]

How much does montly rent cost you? How much for an average lunch? Cost of living is a big deal when you are talking salary (one reason I hope never to move to California)

P.S. 24 days a month and 9-11 hrs per day sounds about right for most salary paid jobs in America (this totally ignores commute time which is 10 hours a week for me). I beleive that CG related jobs have much longer hours.
Aye, at Digital Domain the work day is 10 hours minimum, and most people stay longer, especially at the end of a show. 9-11 hrs per day isn't too bad. Personally, I don't mind a 10 hour work day, it flies when you're having fun.

As for India catching up with Hollywood... it's all about experience, not just talent and equipment. Without people in India who have been doing VFX for a good long while to lead the rest of the artists, talented as they may be, things will never be as high of quality as Hollywood. And I really doubt many of the Hollywood artists want to move to India to work and train artists there. Perhaps if there's enough money to be made of course. But India may catch up to Hollywood eventually, but that will take a long time of dedicated folks who advance their industry from the ground up.

[andy_maxman]

How much does montly rent cost you? How much for an average lunch?

that would be a $120 as rentals for a good place and an avg. meal costs around $3
cheers!
andy

[DotPainter]

Outsourcing, like in India, is only a bandaid not a cure to the economic hopes of third world countries. The main problem lies in all of the things mentioned previously: infrastructure, production for local markets and better management. India is trying to bank its future on outsourcing, but that is not enough to grow India's economy and make it prosperous. Unless there is more spending on infrastructure, economic progress is impossible. Secondly, Bollywood is the largest movie industry in the world. If Indian VFX companies want to make money, start there first! There are hundreds of opportunities for doing full CG movies based on the legends and tales from within Indian culture that could make a big splash and a big name for a studio worldwide, if done properly. On top of that, if the managers at these companies don't get smarter about finding opportunities, both home and abroad, there will be a serious problem. Look at the Korean animation industry, they were once mainly used as special effects subcontractors for larger Japanese anime titles, now they are starting to breakout (albeit very slightly ) on their own. If Indian companies started specializing in certain areas of 3d effects, they may be able to offer themselves as a more valuable component within a larger team. However, trying to sell an outfit from India as a total end-to-end Hollywood caliber production studio is a bit ambitious and may never catch on.

- $.02 -

[Iotrez]

There is a tidal wave of humanity out there, highly motivated, equipped with the same software and tools we have, and offering their services at a fraction what North American / Europeans will charge. Things are going to change
Well India has the best programmers and now programming is probably not a great area for guys in the USA to get into because of the competition, so if lots of people in india are getting into CG then eventually India will have the best cg guys too.

Seems kind of inevitable.

[outoftheboxirritation]

Well India has the best programmers and now programming is probably not a great area for guys in the USA to get into because of the competition, so if lots of people in india are getting into CG then eventually India will have the best cg guys too.
Seems kind of inevitable.

India has some excellent artists also.. but now they are struggling with useless management and stupid directors... only atmosphere can make them the best. But still 50% of them suffer with a totally wrong perspective about CG and VFX. It will take some 5 years before these kind of stupidity (skin color) gets removed from india. I really love if some vfx schools in US start giving some scolarships for eligible indian students.. This will help remove stupidity to some extend from India. I will appreciate if that great person who commented on hw+sw+skin color could come down and give some proper explanation to the whole industry through this thread... may be he actually means something else... god knows :banghead:

[slaughters]

Well India has the best programmers...Those that come to the USA to work tend to be the very best, but the average India programmer tends to be, well, average. Not much better or worse than any other programmer that I've worked with over the last 20 years. I expect the same to happen in the CG industry.

India really needs to focus on building it's infrastructure. Without supporting infrastructure development India seems to be creating a highly educated class of people who then have to move to other countries in order to find jobs in their speciality. They've created a system where their most educated people leave. Not a good thing for the long term economic health of a country.

India needs to be able to create markets within it's own populace. Otherwise it will just be an exporter of services and man power instead of a world wide economic power house.

[outoftheboxirritation]

India needs to be able to create markets within it's own populace. Otherwise it will just be an exporter of services and man power instead of a world wide economic power house.

101% true... To build up such a system, india has to start by changing the whole educational system which currently chunks out half baked graduates who need 2-3 years of training before they do some real job.... and the "management policy" of "first lets get a $5 million outsourced work, then we can think of buying systems and softwares and recruiting people."

[andy_maxman]

Eat right. Stay fit. Die anyway.
hey slaughters......
hope you don't mind me quoting your sig. here ( i know its off-topic )
but that surely is one of the best one liners i ever heard. just can't stop laughin'Mate!!!


hooohoooahhaahaaaahhheeeehhoooohho!!! :-) lol

[slaughters]

No problem. I've often thought of printing it on a workout/T-Shirt and wearing it to the gym.

Anyone know a good location to get one time T-Shirt prints? :)

[the_zed_axis]

This whole topic bites....


anyhoo with the amount of movies that bollywood pumps out annually i think that indian studios will have plenty of work in their hands as long as those fat bastards(lol the producers) decide to start taking some risks with real creativity and not just copying stuff off hollywood movies.
I have lived in india for 3-4 years(my father is a diplomat) and believe me if you have seen one bollywood movie you have seen them all.

you would not believe that budget that goes into making these (hopeless) movies. with all that money you could defintely make something worthwhile.

Last i heard there was this movie in which a single song sequence cost 2-3 crores rupees to shoot(i think a crore is about 1 million rupees) and the movie failed miserablely

crap crap crap

[outoftheboxirritation]

i think that indian studios will have plenty of work in their hands as long as those fat bastards(lol the producers) decide to start taking some risks with real creativity and not just copying stuff off hollywood movies. Aren't you aware that those fat bast****(some skinny @ssH@les too) take risk only while deciding the cast and not in vfx.. they even put the teaser with "releasing on Jan 20th 2005" and do the vfx editing on xmas and scanning on new year...They know only one thing - if u cast this hero you get XXX amt of collection, that hero means XXXX amt ... You really missed my thread on Indian Industry...chkout
http://www.angelfire.com/film/indiancg/oldpost.html dont miss the one on bollywood movies... Watch "King Of BollyWood" ..aavailable on DVD in US/UK... a spoof on bollywood movie making techniques.... Worth Watching..


you would not believe that budget that goes into making these (hopeless) movies. with all that money you could defintely make something worthwhile. There are some smart guys who spend these money wisely in making new religions, political parties, smuggling and international terrorism( :cool: )...

I love to watch the "Pavitr Prabhakar" (Indian Spider man) as an autorickshaw driver who falls in love with some stupid gal and these two will go to switzerland to dance with 100 extra artists with their costumes (bright colors) changing on every shot.

Like Viagra Someone someday will make some stuff for boosting commonsense.. Then India will be the biggest consumer for that. :banghead:

[dixit13]

:bounce: :bounce: ...Ha ha ha..well i m Indian.

India will be on top of da list economically in 2035.People got lot of talent and potential out here that needed to be explored. Taking about outsourcing - well, Offshore outsourcing is a high-gain - high-risk proposition, powerful and perilous. The elusive key to a successful offshore venture resides in a twelve-letter word - relationship. Offshore development is as much about technical skills and quality as it is about a relationship based on compatibility, trust and mutual respect. So if you are an impatient guy don’t opt for outsourcing cause there gona be problems no matter which country you try , but watt gives edge to indian is that their solution finding capablity .

hell....sometimes i also talk crap ..after all i m also human ..Pew :))

Gooday HustlaZZZZ



:thumbsup: My Recent thread :http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=185223
If you find me talented send some work :P:scream:

[AmbiDextrose]

but watt gives edge to indian is that their solution finding capablity.
Umm, not to rain on your parade, but I've worked alongside Indians and those from other cultures (Filipinos, Chinese, Korean, Singaporean, Italian, German, . . . .) at a System Engineering level and they're not smarter or better than any of them. In the U.S., everyone's on equal footing which means, with my skill-set, I can replace anyone, even (gasp) Indians and I've done so in the past. What is advantageous is that Indians are ammenable to working for less money so they tend to undercut everyone else (and they tend to be great at haggling- a skill I can never master). You can find that here as well as globally.

Also, you can't outsource everything. That's one lesson we learned from that massive and disruptive 2003 East Coast blackout. I think outsourcing was brought about by the current state of global economics. So, what'll happen if the global economy strengthens? Wouldn't we see a shift back to localization?

[rocarpen]

There are some smart guys who spend these money wisely in making new religions, political parties, smuggling and international terrorism( :cool: )...
Yeah, sort of like Sikh extremists in British Columbia, using the proceeds from pot, coke, and heroin sales to fund little ventures like Air India bombings, political assasinations of moderates, etc. ****ing bastards.

Sorry for the OT post.

[RobertoOrtiz]

Guys guys, I have an itchy finger on top of the "Close Thread" button.

Please get back on topic.

-R

[tarun_don]

An ORIGINAL (Losely based on Indian jungle folk tales) CG series is airing on Cartoon network India. It's not the best quality but still a good enough attempt from a startup Indian (http://www.mpcindia.com/)studio (http://www.mpcindia.com/) with startup mostly inexperienced team ...I started my carreer here..Cheers to the CEO Mr.Ramesh Sharma and team for taking the lead...:thumbsup: ..This place could be a great place, but unfortunately the vision is dimming here...And nobody heard the artists...so all original good guys left..(me too)

Bad things in Indian CG Industry...

Most heads and lead guys are people from IT...not artists themselves
Too much emphasis on technology
Not too many places (and suits there) , respects artists
Not many people have right skills...( this is changing)
And ofcourse Ignorant suits giving laughable quotes to end up here :) ( I've not read the article in question)
Most places here don't wanna pay, not even to good people.

So work hard to sharpen your Art, become a freelancer over net, ask comparable International rates...This way you can play fair and get the work because you are good..not because you are cheap..

And about bollywood movies...Well, most are made for average Indian people who don't give a crap to Hollywood or Western sensibilities...In my opinion there are very few countries where cinema has their own *distinct style*...yes that includes songs in movies...Can't say good or bad..either you like it or don't..

Recipe to make an Indian thread: Search..search..search..till you find an unimportant, unheard of article..now scrutinize and find the most stupid quote and put it on Cgtalk...There it is!!

[the_zed_axis]

good dammit i have had enough of these indian 3d industry threads.... they always turn into india bashing etc etc etc

India and China will be the next two economic superpowers thats for sure and India definitely has the edge over China in the sense that it has a larger english speaking population.... but then again bureaucratic corruption is more rampant in India then in China

lol


anyhoo

time to learn some hindi or mandarin boys:)

[andy_maxman]

Guys guys, I have an itchy finger on top of the "Close Thread" button.

Please get back on topic.

-R
There 've been similar threads in the past and its a REQ / SUG that such threads be moderated in the beginning itself.

There simply is no point in repeating whats already been flamed about a hundred times before. Besides such threads jeopardize an industry's image.
*unsubscribed*
Thanks.

[outoftheboxirritation]

Guys guys, I have an itchy finger on top of the "Close Thread" button. Please get back on topic.


Thanks for not closing this thread. Let me try to give a small explanation for posting in this thread. Following is my personal opinion and I am just expressing it in a right place.

Indians have a very very bad attitude towards publicity. At any cost the top people in a company want their name and photo to be in the media. For that they talk about things which they don’t know to impress the media. I don’t think that threads which try to bring out the stupidity of some individuals will jeopardize an industry's image. Instead it will help this industry to grow in a more mature way... Until someone criticizes what they have told, they may not realize their mistakes and will live with the same mistakes for another few years killing the industry.

When I have met some individuals like the above "skin color" guy in past, I have sincerely felt that they would have never been like this if someone had criticized them in past. Instead everyone supports such people in India, who open their mouth only to eat food and talk nonsense. You see a person who works hard in a company and minds his own business. He will be treated as the most useless person in that company. Whereas people who don’t work and talks foolishness in a company gets appraisals and promotions every month. bcoz he know how to impress his boss with his talks. Why they become like that? Bcoz no one raises his voice against such people.

This is just a sincere attempt from me personally to clean up the perspective of artists and management in this country so that they can be of some good use to the whole world in future. Else India and people over here will ever remain as an option for cheap workforce. I believe the civilized people around the world will help this country and its creative team grow in a much more civilized way than in misery. Making people in India more intelligent will not harm any US artists bcoz they will stop thinking of getting a job at any cost by selling them for a cheap wage. Companies in US will stop thinking of outsourcing work to India for just a single cause -"cheap manpower" . That saves talented people losing jobs in US. It will make the local people here to think in a more better way. When one know well that they can get a job by just asking for cheap labor, they don’t think abt increasing their quality or efficiency. When companies over here come to know that they cannot just depend on outsourced work, they will start thinking of making original content for international market. If this things happen eventually, people will think of quality and make themselves a better individual. Its good for all...all those who are talented. Only fittest will survive.

I don’t think this subject is of no importance. Discussing over this issue is really going to do something good for all. May be not now. In another 2-3 years you can see the changes. Anticipate what can happen in future and plan well, If you fail to generate a civilized workforce in India or China you all will end up sitting in your house without a job in coming years. Producers and companies just care about the profit they are going to make. They wont care to do work in India if they find India is 10 times cheaper than US just by sacrificing some quality. Nobody will resist themselves from seeing a movie(vfx or cg) if its good. They are least bothered where the movie is made. Hope I am not talking anything offensive. On the outside it may look so, but think about it for sometime. Is there any other solution? Isn’t it better to do something now before it gets late.


Since media is also business minded, they prefer to write Hot stories of Indian Achievement. Years Back I have read that Swordfish was done in an Indian VFX facility. People who have worked over there know the fact. Others still believe that swordfish was done in India.


Please don’t take my threads in a wrong sense. I am not going to gain anything by spending my precious time in writing all these. Blocking this thread is as easy as clicking a "Close Thread" button. But think twice. If these things can make some changes in India for everyone’s good, why not let it happen? In a country where people worship filmstars, this might turn out to be a solution. :deal:

Sincerely
BEYONDREAMZ

[rocarpen]

Hey man, thanks for your passion on this. I don't understand everything you're saying, but I can see that you seem motivated by powerful convictions. So what's your story? What background led you to this position? Just curious.

[outoftheboxirritation]

Hey man, thanks for your passion on this. I don't understand everything you're saying, but I can see that you seem motivated by powerful convictions. So what's your story? What background led you to this position? Just curious.

Just some feeling that its important to make changes before its too late.

Only an Indian feels that everything is perfect and beautiful in India. Frog in the pond attitude... :banghead:

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