NewTek's LightWave 3D® First Professional 3D Application to Unveil 64-Bit Port

[Thalaxis]

So will this be a paid upgrade for current LW[8] users?

Either way, it's good to see NewTek getting on the bandwagon early again :)

[MasterZap]

Uhm, 64 bit mental ray has been available for some time. But maybe that's not an "application"? Oh how marketing departments have creative use of language ;)

/Z

[pgp_protector]

Thing is, there not releasing it tell Windows 64 Comes out.

[Para]

Uhm, 64 bit mental ray has been available for some time. But maybe that's not an "application"? Oh how marketing departments have creative use of language ;)

/Z

There's difference between a renderer and a full-blown 3d application (which in this case at least includes its own "world-class" renderer) :p

[Thalaxis]

Thing is, there not releasing it tell Windows 64 Comes out.
Seems logical... otherwise they'd be shipping software that only people with WinXP64 betas would be able to run ;)

[igorstshirts]

Amazing! Good job Newtek!

[Fluckrat]

Great!®..........

[UrbanFuturistic]

Uhm, 64 bit mental ray has been available for some time. But maybe that's not an "application"? Oh how marketing departments have creative use of language ;)That's 64Bit Double Precision floating point utilisation which any 32Bit software can utilise (including any half-decent renderer); it is not, however, a 64Bit application. A 64Bit application utilising Double Precision Floating Point numbers would use 128Bits.

regards, Paul

[Beamtracer]

Newtek announced that they have LW64 in development. But they have no product to give to the public at this time.

In 1999, the old Lightwave development team announced that Lightwave is "64-bit clean". They were already developing LW64 back then. Around 2000, Newtek publicly demonstrated a 64-bit version of Lightwave running on Intel's Itanium platform.

Now, the new Lightwave development team announces that a 64-bit Lightwave is in development for Windows/AMD processors, but it is still "in beta" and can't be released to the public. Microsoft still doesn't have a release version of 64-bit Windows available for the general public, though a beta OS has been seeded to developers.

By the way, the 64-bit Mac OS X "Tiger" OS has also been seeded to developers. I wonder why Newtek made no announcement about plans for this?

[retinajoy]

This is great news. The new LW development team are certainly working hard. A shame we have to wait until Microsoft release the new Windows. Looking forward to having a 64bit Lightwave on my Athlon 64 :) It will be intresting to see how much of a speed gain this will give us.

[Hazdaz]

Bravo NewTek!

[danielh68]

Yeah, I agree, this is great news!

[harlan_hill]

Great news, however I'm disappointed to not see OSX Tiger mentioned.

I can understand why a Linux version isn't mentioned (even though Linux is available in a 64bit state) as there is currently no linux port of Lightwave. However, there's been a Mac version of Lightwave for years; so what gives??

[jevinstudios]

Brilliant! Once again, NewTek takes the lead for others to follow. I love LightWave, and use it every day in my studio -- this is truly extraordinary news. Keep up the great work, guyz!

[Fasty]

For those wondering about a Mac port, Chuck mentioned this in another thread

We have a roadmap for a 64-bit port for the Mac as well, but it will take more time to do the changes we need to make for Tiger. Things like no more Direct Draw make it a bit more work for us. In sum, we simply aren't comfortable at this time in making the formal announcement for the Mac 64-bit port.

[Beamtracer]

So the Windows version is being beta tested. The Mac OS X version, well, there's a roadmap on a piece of paper somewhere.

Meanwhile, Luxology has already made public announcements about getting their apps ported to 64-bit OS X.

[Thalaxis]

That's 64Bit Double Precision floating point utilisation which any 32Bit software can utilise (including any half-decent renderer); it is not, however, a 64Bit application. A 64Bit application utilising Double Precision Floating Point numbers would use 128Bits.

regards, Paul
Nope. Double precision = 64 bit.

It has nothing do with running 32-bit or 64-bit code.

[Thalaxis]

So the Windows version is being beta tested. The Mac OS X version, well, there's a roadmap on a piece of paper somewhere.

Meanwhile, Luxology has already made public announcements about getting their apps ported to 64-bit OS X.
And Maxon's still waiting for production-ready 64-bit development tools.

So what's your point? That Lux is better at hype than NewTek and Maxon?

[pthomas72]

Does anyone know why Lightwave is so behind the curve?
are they going broke or something?

[M.E.L.]

Brilliant! Once again, NewTek takes the lead for others to follow. I love LightWave, and use it every day in my studio -- this is truly extraordinary news. Keep up the great work, guyz!
you're kidding me right? The last time Lightwave took the lead was hmm...yeah...uhm...never? Look, as great as these 'leaps and bounds' really are, NewTek is flogging a dead horse here...kill the app and either start fresh or jump off a cliff...

Luxology has already built WAAY beyond what Lightwave ever could and even took the spotlight of what little hope LW users had left (their precious modeler). Maybe LW users should start lighting candles and pray for survival? :P

[Paul-Angelo]

you're kidding me right? The last time Lightwave took the lead was hmm...yeah...uhm...never? Look, as great as these 'leaps and bounds' really are, NewTek is flogging a dead horse here...kill the app and either start fresh or jump off a cliff...

Luxology has already built WAAY beyond what Lightwave ever could and even took the spotlight of what little hope LW users had left (their precious modeler). Maybe LW users should start lighting candles and pray for survival? :P
Comparing Modo (Just a modeler) to Lightwave a full blown modeling/Animation/Rendering solution is like comparing apples to oranges. Modo is a great start, I own both Modo and Lightwave but I think it is going to take some time before Luxology can offer something that surpasses Lightwave. BTW why jump into thread that is about Lightwave's future offering and throw stones? Ever hear of the saying; if you don't have anything nice to say then...?

Well, I am siked about this. I look forward to Lightwave's continued future.

[harlan_hill]

you're kidding me right? The last time Lightwave took the lead was hmm...yeah...uhm...never? Look, as great as these 'leaps and bounds' really are, NewTek is flogging a dead horse here...kill the app and either start fresh or jump off a cliff...

Luxology has already built WAAY beyond what Lightwave ever could and even took the spotlight of what little hope LW users had left (their precious modeler). Maybe LW users should start lighting candles and pray for survival? :P

Whoa, and the leader of the ignorant masses rears his ugly head. You really need to know what you're talking about prior to posting as it does no one any good.

[Para]

Does anyone know why Lightwave is so behind the curve?
are they going broke or something?

All we know is that Luxology and NewTek had a long battle in court and that caused some sort of fallback on LW. NewTek's been working on the issue ever since and seems like that they are slowly getting back to their working pace. Rumors even say that next big version of LW could be a total rewrite.

[retinajoy]

Does anyone know why Lightwave is so behind the curve?
are they going broke or something? I think you have been ill informed by someone. I will try as a Lightwave user to put my spin on things.

1. Lightwave artists have won Emmy awards for the last 6 years in a row. Testimony to the power of the application. http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/09-28-04a.html
2. They have a new fresh forward looking experienced development team
3. The last maintenance update came out soon after the official 8.0 release. Evidence of rapid developmemt and improvement.
4. The SDK is being opened up to become a serious contender to other Apps. Also the LScript language is being futher developed to make it even more powerful. http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/09-07-04a.html
5. All 0.x updates are free including the .5 update which always includes major new functionality. I believe the new development team will integrate these new features better than the former one.
6. A proven application in all types of production. http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/products/lightwave/projects.html
7. An excellent renderer (999 free nodes). Not as fast a some competitors, but certainly better quality than the other apps inbuilt renderers (I am not comparing with dedicated renderers such as renderman, VRay etc etc). Enhancements coming soon to LW renderer judging by hints on the Newtek boards.

and now the announcement on this thread. So hardly going broke. Development is going very much forward and we will see further evidence of that, when they are ready to release their next .x update.

LW is not perfect and there are many good apps with their own strengths out there such as XSI, Maya and C4D has now become a more serious contender with release 9. I do use Lightwave for work and the past months have given me confidence in Newteks future and the development of LW. Catch-up in some areas? Yes; but I'm sure Newtek have a lot of goodies up its sleeve regarding LW. :)

[combatmantra]

I,m not very happy with the latest direction in the development of lightwave with lw 8 but m.e.l. i think you don,t know what you are talking about and i supose you have never used lightwave neither, lightwave was one of the pioneers of gi and hdri when max only had an scanline and is a great program, very easy to use and very intuitive i suggest you to know about what you are talking before doing it:) and i,m not saying you trying to give you a lesson or something look at my smiley.
imho the software election is really secondary, today all app,s are capable of doing great things if there are great people working behind it, you don,t need to have the latest superspecial technology to do a good job, see the people in ilm or weta, they aren,t using in the productions gi or hdri they are using their knowledge creativity and experience, something that you will never find in any special app.

Cheers.

[Galo]

you're kidding me right? The last time Lightwave took the lead was hmm...yeah...uhm...never? Look, as great as these 'leaps and bounds' really are, NewTek is flogging a dead horse here...kill the app and either start fresh or jump off a cliff...

Luxology has already built WAAY beyond what Lightwave ever could and even took the spotlight of what little hope LW users had left (their precious modeler). Maybe LW users should start lighting candles and pray for survival? :PWHat the heck are you pointing at,we all now now that modo is great and fantastic bla bla bla..... tried working with it, will stick with LW cause i dont think Modo is better or stronger in any way, they are all just stupid tools anyway, and LW happens to be my favorite, your's is modo, stay with that and just do your job!

And IMHO Lightwave has always been 'a' leading tool in the industry, 'a' cause were not alone in the universe.......
And if you think Modo is a replacement for Lightwave your wrong, just see and watch what newtek has under the hood of theire next release, this is a long way from flogging a dead horse!

Does anyone know why Lightwave is so behind the curve?
are they going broke or something?
Hmmm,.... what curve, no stop this, a curve, is there a curve, OMG they are behind that curve, and they are not broke or anything, Newtek is still a pioneer at toprange...

cheers,
Galo

[faulknermano]

@ M.E.L: if you dont use LW, why do you care about LW's 64-bit port? if you use LW, what do you not like about the 64-bit port?

if you'd like to post anything else on this thread, i would like to politely ask you to address my question with it.

[UrbanFuturistic]

Nope. Double precision = 64 bit.

It has nothing do with running 32-bit or 64-bit code.Actually, double precision is defined as requiring Double Word Length to store which on a 32Bit processor is 64Bit whereas 64Bit processors handle 64Bits natively with no extra work required and a double, at double word length, would be 128Bits. The only reason some people (including, it seems, thos who wrote the original Java spec) define it as specifically 64Bits is due to the length of time 32Bit computing has been the standard.

regards, Paul

[Thalaxis]

Actually, double precision is defined as requiring Double Word Length to store which on a 32Bit processor is 64Bit whereas 64Bit processors handle 64Bits natively with no extra work required and a double, at double word length, would be 128Bits. The only reason some people (including, it seems, thos who wrote the original Java spec) define it as specifically 64Bits is due to the length of time 32Bit computing has been the standard.

Sigh... in C++, Java, and C#, a "double" is a 64-bit floating point value. A float is 32 bits. Define it however you like, that's how it is. Actually, I could include quite a few other languages in that list, but I'm too lazy.

The 80387 had an 80 FPU, so it's not like being unable to handle 64-bit values has EVER been a real limitation, though there have been a plethora of other limitations, none of which have to do with whether or not a float is 32-bits or 64 bits.

Most software written for 64-bit platforms today is 32-bit software, using 32-bit floats and 32-bit memory addresses.

[poly-phobic]

im betting my money alias is next to suit up for the 64 bit trend.

[Lyr]

Wow wonder how many years will go by before this actually gets released. While they may be first too announce they will probably be one of the last to deliver. Newtek hasn't exactly been on target with release dates in recent history.

[opus13]

That's 64Bit Double Precision floating point utilisation which any 32Bit software can utilise (including any half-decent renderer); it is not, however, a 64Bit application. A 64Bit application utilising Double Precision Floating Point numbers would use 128Bits.

regards, Paul
...so then running vliw or x86-64 compile of mental ray on itanium or opteron doesnt count as being a 64 bit application? are you just nit-picking that it is a 32 bit application re-compiled to run on a 64bit platform, as opposed to a solution that has been a 64bit target from conception?

[Proximus]

This is good news even if I am not using Lightwave anymore, other developers are sure to follow!
NewTek did have a Lightwave version runing on Irix long ago, and I belive that was 64 bit too.

[JDex]

Am I reading this right... they are announcing that they intend to release a 64 bit port of their app, when a 64 bit OS is made available.

Isn't that kindof like me announcing that as soon as XP64 is released, I'll buy a 64 bit computer.

Well anyways... it's good to here something positive from Newtek... hopefully this is a glimmer of hope that they will still exist in a year or two.

[RobertoOrtiz]

And why would they cease to exist?

-R

[JDex]

Well... I have read many LW users express concerns that the development has been lacking and trouble-plagued... I was talking to a ex-professor the other day and he was on a tie-raid about having a lab full of LW workstations that are unusable because they lock up within minutes of firing up the app... Ironically, he is officially the biggest app-fanboi I have ever met... he truly believes (or at least he used to) think that LW is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Dunno... it's just a vibe I've gotten from many LW users over the last few years... it's not flamebait.

[Nemoid]

Your statement seems strange to me. Lw is a solid app.and doesn't stops functioning after awhile u start it at all.

Maybe its development has been not so good in latest years, but now a new dev team has come, and good news are starting to come : first some needed bone tools in directly layout and other good tweaks to the animation and modelling compartment, then the 8.01 update wich is more solid, then a good announce about works on scripting language and now this 64 bit announce.
Then there's Mr Steve Worley, author of good plugs like G2 and Sasquatch (respectively sss and lights and textures boost plug, and hair generation good plug) that is supposed to be working on Lw SDK make it really opened and allow his Fprime rendering engine and preview system (a very good one) to work smoothly with the app. :)


While these news could seem to be not so astonishing to Maya or XSI users they actually are for Lw users and also mean the team is working very very hard to make Lw grow better. :)

[annaleah]

Long live the Hub!:rolleyes:

[UrbanFuturistic]

...so then running vliw or x86-64 compile of mental ray on itanium or opteron doesnt count as being a 64 bit application? are you just nit-picking that it is a 32 bit application re-compiled to run on a 64bit platform, as opposed to a solution that has been a 64bit target from conception?

Oh damn, I'd completely forgotten about that >_<

I'm still sticking by my other statement though.

regards, Paul

[dotTom]

Well anyways... it's good to here something positive from Newtek... hopefully this is a glimmer of hope that they will still exist in a year or two.
I find Newtek's announcement very depressing. I'm currently porting 3.5 million lines of C++ to Windows x64 using Visual Studio 2005 (Whidbey) and to be frank, Big Deal. To date, and I've been doing this for about 4 months so far, it's been extremely easy. Why are we doing this? Because clients need larger data sets, period. What does Newtek need (and I say this as a old time LW user who's moved on), Newtek badly needs a new application architecture. Simply widening (and really folks this is simple) their pointer sizes is not on its own enough to keep their heads above water. Yes there is a small (read: small) speed increase from the extra registers that x64 processors have (it lets you call more functions entirely using registers without having to build and tear down a call stack), but that's it.

On the upside, x64 is a far less forgiving execution environment than x86, so Newtek's codebase which I imagine will cross compile will be better off time terms of cleanliness from the port.

You can bet your bottom $ that Avid, Alias and Discreet are doing the same. If they haven't made jumpy-up-and-down noises by now it may just be because they consider 64 bit to be a relatively minor engineering "tick list" item compared to say implementing a better workflow throughout the app as a whole.

[Galo]

I find Newtek's announcement very depressing. I'm currently porting 3.5 million lines of C++ to Windows x64 using Visual Studio 2005 (Whidbey) and to be frank, Big Deal. To date, and I've been doing this for about 4 months so far, it's been extremely easy. Why are we doing this? Because clients need larger data sets, period. What does Newtek need (and I say this as a old time LW user who's moved on), Newtek badly needs a new application architecture. Simply widening (and really folks this is simple) their pointer sizes is not on its own enough to keep their heads above water. Yes there is a small (read: small) speed increase from the extra registers that x64 processors have (it lets you call more functions entirely using registers without having to build and tear down a call stack), but that's it.

On the upside, x64 is a far less forgiving execution environment than x86, so Newtek's codebase which I imagine will cross compile will be better off time terms of cleanliness from the port.

You can bet your bottom $ that Avid, Alias and Discreet are doing the same. If they haven't made jumpy-up-and-down noises by now it may just be because they consider 64 bit to be a relatively minor engineering "tick list" item compared to say implementing a better workflow throughout the app as a whole.
I agree 100% with that....

cheers,
Galo

[Hazdaz]

Ya know what guys? Companies put out press releases like this all the freakin' time.

They put out a press release for the simplest, smallest point release, and then hype it up like its the greatest thing since sliced bread. Thats what marketting/sales departments do... they post any stupid new news just so people can keep their products in people's minds.

Putting up a rellease that says that LW is going 64-bits is basically expected.... but the fact that they are announcing it even before Win64 is out is a little surprising, and probably done just to keep the LW faithful happy knowing that their favorite app is being worked on.

I think you guys are thinking just a tad bit too much concerning this press release.

[Ejecta]

Long live the Hub!:rolleyes:
LOL!! Lets hope not.

[charleyc]

I agree, this announcement is surprising comming this early, but there are rumors in the max community that discreet plans the exact same thing, there are probably rumors in all the major app communities. LW just got the be the first to officially announce it.

For all of you surprised about the remarks made about LW, don't you read these forums? We are in the online CG forums era of "My app sucks worse then yours and I am going to/just did/did a long time ago switch and you are a poor fool for not following". The same exact things are said about all the other developers and apps in their specific threads. Don't take it too seriously, it isn't worth it...trust me. :)

[Stone]

The last time Lightwave took the lead was hmm...yeah...uhm...never?
you, my friend, is a complete ignorant of 3d history. no matter what position lightwave3d is in today, your comment is false and is sorely demonstrating lack of insight into the subject you ramble about.

/stone

[DiscreetDave]

I agree, this announcement is surprising comming this early, but there are rumors in the max community that discreet plans the exact same thing...With so much of Max licensed from 3rd parties, and with the huge reliance on plugins (free and otherwise - inluding ones that ship WITH the app like Reactor and Character Studio), i'd be VERY surprised if Discreet were able to pull off a port of Max.

In fact, with a 12 month release cycle and an architecture that was not created with OS portability in mind, I'd say Discreet will be the last of the majors to get there.

They did some work on Itanium a few years ago and were bitten by some "we ain't got no good development OS" issues...

Any "64-bit" association they have will most likely be with certification running in 32bit mode on 64-bit systems (so y'all will at least get some extra memory), and of course some kind of story between Max and 64-bit MR (even if it's just at the .mi level).

ANYhoo.. congrats to Newtek - seemed like Lightwave was falling off the chart, maybe there's life thar yet!

:thumbsup:

[dotTom]

They [Discreet] did some work on Itanium a few years ago and were bitten by some "we ain't got no good development OS" issues...
And they'd be right. We tried on Itanium a few years a ago and it was a joke. Why? Well the 64 bit Microsoft C++ compiler (Visual Studio) was one major revision behind the 32 bit compiler. This was hugely significant in terms of GUI library delta. It meant that as an ISV you where faced with the choice of either trying to implement Microsoft's 32 bit GUI libraries for them or doing it all from scratch. Engineering cost and effort aside this sucks since what you really want (and what you have now) is feature parity between a 32 and 64 bit build targets and a single cross compiling code base.

A few years ago the only meaningful thing that could have sensibly been done would be to port the rendering engine, MR, to 64 bit and talk to it via RPC from a 32 bit modeler - which is exactly what was done.

Seriously folks, Newtek's latest PR smacks of desperation, they might as well put out a release saying they've changed to a new version of the 32 bit compiler, or they now officially support Windows XP Service Pack 2, or any other day to day maintainence task that any ISV has to go through.

Newtek need a new software architecture, and they need it yesterday. I wonder what Newtek's IP portfolio is like, do they have any patents that would make them a attractive take over target for another ISV? If I where Newtek at this point I'd be really worried that companies like Avid might be investing some serious engineering $ in some "industrial strength" LW file importers. For LW to survive long term (and to fund a re-engineering) it needs to generate new sales, not just licence renewals from the faithful.

[Vertizor]

That's 64Bit Double Precision floating point utilisation which any 32Bit software can utilise (including any half-decent renderer); it is not, however, a 64Bit application. A 64Bit application utilising Double Precision Floating Point numbers would use 128Bits.

regards, Paul

Nope. Double precision = 64 bit.

It has nothing do with running 32-bit or 64-bit code.
Wrong again. Floating point precision has nothing to do with the size of the datatype. On a 32-bit platform a float is 32-bits, and 64 bits on a 64 bit platform. Single precision in 32-bit mode means it is accurate up to 12 bits of the 4 bytes. Double precision makes it accurate up to 24 bits of the 32.

[charleyc]

With so much of Max licensed from 3rd parties, and with the huge reliance on plugins (free and otherwise - inluding ones that ship WITH the app like Reactor and Character Studio),
I am not so certain what you mean here. Discreet owns CS now, it is no longer a 3rd party plug. Reactor is the only thing I know if on liscence to discreet for max (not counting whatever agreement they have with mental images). And I would imagine Havok has been looking into the possibilities of 64bit for some time now (assuming the future of discreets 3d dynamics remains in the Havok engine) There is already talk of games going into 64bit. And any plugin worth anything to production houses would adapt or be replaced. LW has plugins. Progression is why they come out with new versions, just like all software.

i'd be VERY surprised if Discreet were able to pull off a port of Max.

Why would you be so surprised. Discreet is no stranger to 64 bit apps. 64 bit is comming and will dominate the industry (unless there is something better out there I have never heard of). All the major 3d app developers will have a 64 bit app in time. Only a fool (or someone with advanced hardware development knowledge) would think otherwise. Discreet has had previous versions of its app able to run in 64 bit (to what extent I don't know) taking advantage of a few 64 bit qualities...like increased memory. I remember them telling about that in the prerelease of r4. That is really nothing new except it has never been sold. The rumor I hear is a coinciding release to Win64...pretty much the same thing in this LW press release. I have no doubt what-so-ever that they already have a version that will run under the 64bit OS. However, that doesn't mean it was developed for it and utilizes everything, but then again the Newtek news post says a "port of LW "that will "take advantage of increased processing power and increased memory", so it may not be a full 64 bit app either, just a hybrid that runs well in the enviroment. Even if that were so, it is the first step down a very cool road for the artists. While LW has perhaps lost a bit of its fame, I think this is a definative affirmation of its intent to stay competative in tomorrows market.

I think this is a great thing. This 64 bit revolution could be one of the biggest boosts in CG abilities the industy has seen in a long time. I am excited to hear this kind of news.

ps...DiscreetDave- I suppose however, there is always a chance that discreet will create an entirly new 3d app for the 64 bit (not 3ds max). Although they deny that this is the plan today, they are the ones who first mentioned that possability a couple years ago. So, perhaps there is a chance max will never see the 64bit era.

[charleyc]

And they'd be right. We tried on Itanium a few years a ago and it was a joke. Why? Well the 64 bit Microsoft C++ compiler (Visual Studio) was one major revision behind the 32 bit compiler.....
That wouldn't be too suprising considering that a few years ago 64 bit systems were not even mentioned in the same sentance as Personal Computer. The Newtek post is hinged on the release of Win XP64 (or whatever they will call it), which is already greatly delayed. Like it or not, Microsoft knows how to make money. Having several hardware vendors attempting (and apparenty succeeding) to supply 64 bit hardware at PC costs and having a direct competitor (Linux) already in the playing field, will force them to adapt. This is too big of a thing for higher end workstations for them to mess it up. The rumor of max's port to 64 also hinged on the release of its native Microsoft Windows OS having itself in the ball game. The very fact that none of these apps have yet today released a 64 bit version lends a lot of credence to your statement.

As for LW needing a core overhaul, you may be right. I don't use it. But this sure sounds like a familiar rant about 3d software and their makers.

[dotTom]

I think folks, you need to be realistic about what 64 bit will mean for the average CG user in real terms. Excluding doubling the number of extra registers in the CPU (for example) - whch translates to a small average speed increase for "free", 64 bit is by definition about address space, which translates to data set size. If you're working at film res all the time then you need this. If you're doing a lot of non-linear video editing you need this. If you want to have all the applications that contribute to your pipeline in memory at the same time you need this. But you don't for example need a 64 bit word processor any time soon.

It should also be remembered what while extra virtual address space is nice you need physical memory to make it anything more than an accademic exercise in paging algorthims. I have a bunch of 64 bit boxes at work running x64-Win64 (all of 'em Intel EM64T machines) with between 3, 6 and 8GB of RAM respectively. Have you seen the list price for a 2GB DDR2 DIMM? This stuff is not cheap. Yes, enconomies of scale will drive it down somewhat, but there's a reason why current MOBOs are tending towards 16GB max, it's cost - fill those slots out and you've spend many 1000s of $.

Don't get me wrong, 64 bit is cool, I love launching a load of processes and watching the memory graph in Task Manager jump by one pixel, but it's not the best thing since hidden line removal. There's still a whole lot of work to do in terms of workflow archtecture that is entirely independent of pointer sizes - and that's true for all CG applications.

[dotTom]

[Opps, double post, sorry!]

[dotTom]

One last point folks, and I say this from the perspective of someone who's porting to 64 bit's right now and is measuring data set size delta's between 32 bit and 64 bit execution environments - 64 bit requires you to buy more memory.

Here's what I mean, imagine a structure in memory, representing if you will a poly mesh or whatever, by doubling the number of bytes it takes to represent a pointer, i.e. a link in a dynamic structure you're just grown the size of a given node in your graph. What does this mean? This means in real terms that there are data sets that you could squeeze into 3GB under the Win32 pointer model that you can not squeeze into 3GB under Win64 (please note I'm talking about actually having stuff in RAM, not paged out).

I mention this because I see a lot of folks on the hardware threads getting hot under their collars about "64 bit laptops" which have 2GB physical RAM limitations. Such systems offer a bridge to the future but if you're buying a machine today and actually plan to use 64 bit "in anger" make sure it can take at least 8GB, preferably 16GB of physical RAM (then speak to your bank manager...) If you're buying now my recommendation would be not to buy the top end 64 bit CPU in a MOBO with a 4GB physical RAM limitation. Spend some of those CPU $'s on the modo and get the 2nd fastest 64 bit CPU on a MOBO that actually lets you use it to its full extent. It's a better long term investment.

Oh, the reason Windows x64 is delayed is down to 3rd party driver support. You can't run 32 bit dynamical libraries in a 64 bit process. I'm still waiting for Creative to release 64 bit drivers for my Audigy II soundcard...

[4SquareKing]

Today 01:03 AM
dotTom

It should also be remembered what while extra virtual address space is nice you need physical memory to make it anything more than an accademic exercise in paging algorthims. I have a bunch of 64 bit boxes at work running x64-Win64 (all of 'em Intel EM64T machines) with between 3, 6 and 8GB of RAM respectively. Have you seen the list price for a 2GB DDR2 DIMM? This stuff is not cheap. Yes, enconomies of scale will drive it down somewhat, but there's a reason why current MOBOs are tending towards 16GB max, it's cost - fill those slots out and you've spend many 1000s of $.

You don't need DDR2 to run 64bit OS. We are running beta version of Win64 with Standard DDR on Opteron dual and single CPU machines with great results. There are driver issues at the moment for graphic cards and such but DDR cost a whole lot less than DDR2 and easier to get 2 Gig sticks. Trying to get 2 Gig sticks of DDR2 is not easy at all unless you want to pay the piper.

4 Square King

[Qslugs]

Wasn't the Dec Alpha a 64 bit cpu? Wasn't there a version of Windows that ran on it? NT 4 perhaps? NT 3.51? Wasn't there a version of LW that ran on that as well? 4,5,5.6 maybe? If what I am remembering is correct, shouldn't they just be announcing that they are continuing along the lines of what they already started back in 1996 with 64 bit computing?

[opus13]

Today 01:03 AM
dotTom

You don't need DDR2 to run 64bit OS. We are running beta version of Win64 with Standard DDR on Opteron dual and single CPU machines with great results. There are driver issues at the moment for graphic cards and such but DDR cost a whole lot less than DDR2 and easier to get 2 Gig sticks. Trying to get 2 Gig sticks of DDR2 is not easy at all unless you want to pay the piper.

4 Square King
ugh.

you missed hte point. the point wasnt ddr2 as being the only viable hardware choice. the point is that the amount of ram necessary to make a 64bit OS installation workable is going to cost people more than they are willing to pay. in the densites necessary, ram is just too expensive on the consumer level.

opterons work off of ddr, yes. so do the new xeons, as well as noconas on some chipsets.

before too long though, intel is going to migrate their entire memory architecture over to ddr2 and drag the rest of the industry with it. well, they didnt succeed with rambus, but who knows --hey just might this time. seeing that AMD already has future plans to integrate a ddr2 controller in to the opterons, i think its really just a matter of time.

[opus13]

Wasn't the Dec Alpha a 64 bit cpu? Wasn't there a version of Windows that ran on it? NT 4 perhaps? NT 3.51? Wasn't there a version of LW that ran on that as well? 4,5,5.6 maybe? If what I am remembering is correct, shouldn't they just be announcing that they are continuing along the lines of what they already started back in 1996 with 64 bit computing? yeah, it was nt4. i was under the impression that most all of the software that ran on it was via a software translation layer. i want to say that it was '!32', but its been too long. i'll see if i can dig up any old docs.

/edit:

http://www.iit.edu/~compvis/report/mikhail/prices.htm

yep, they sure did. good memory :) hmm...i'll also see if i can find the press release about discreet doing a live demo of 3dsmax on itanium. (that one i do remember)

[Thalaxis]

Wrong again. Floating point precision has nothing to do with the size of the datatype. On a 32-bit platform a float is 32-bits, and 64 bits on a 64 bit platform. Single precision in 32-bit mode means it is accurate up to 12 bits of the 4 bytes. Double precision makes it accurate up to 24 bits of the 32.
No, wrong yet again. I explained it once, I'm not going to waste time explaining it to yet another uncomprehending poster.

[Thalaxis]

Today 01:03 AM
You don't need DDR2 to run 64bit OS. We are running beta version of Win64 with Standard DDR on Opteron dual and single CPU machines with great results.

Note that he's using EMT64 -- that's not an Opteron he's talking about.

[Thalaxis]

Wasn't the Dec Alpha a 64 bit cpu? Wasn't there a version of Windows that ran on it? NT 4 perhaps? NT 3.51? Wasn't there a version of LW that ran on that as well? 4,5,5.6 maybe? If what I am remembering is correct, shouldn't they just be announcing that they are continuing along the lines of what they already started back in 1996 with 64 bit computing?
AFAIK that was a 32-bit version of Windows. Linux, VMS, and OSF/1 (I think they changed the name to something else, but I don't know what) were the only 64-bit OS's available for the Alpha.

[DiscreetDave]

I think this is a great thing. This 64 bit revolution could be one of the biggest boosts in CG abilities the industy has seen in a long time. I am excited to hear this kind of news.Couldn't agree more - I'm pretty confident once Microsoft gets it together that AMD is going to see a LOT of sales. Larger studios have been asking the "so when's it gonna be ready!?" question for a year now & once there's a real solution in place 64-bit will be the default new purchase.
SWEEEET :bounce:

I suppose however, there is always a chance that discreet will create an entirly new 3d app for the 64 bit (not 3ds max). Although they deny that this is the plan today, they are the ones who first mentioned that possability a couple years ago. So, perhaps there is a chance max will never see the 64bit era.WORD. :buttrock:

[Vertizor]

No, wrong yet again. I explained it once, I'm not going to waste time explaining it to yet another uncomprehending poster.
Alright fine, you're the genius, woop-dee-doo. I can't find where I read my info from, but I did Google search and found out that double precision floats are 64 bits. So you were right. I'm to lazy to go back and figure out where I got my info from. You win. Happy?

[Thalaxis]

Alright fine, you're the genius, woop-dee-doo. I can't find where I read my info from, but I did Google search and found out that double precision floats are 64 bits. So you were right. I'm to lazy to go back and figure out where I got my info from. You win. Happy?
Of course I was right... I can read.

Your attitude only validates my harsh response. Try growing up.

[Vertizor]

Now you're just hitting below the belt.

[Thalaxis]

You know, you could have tried using a more courteous attitude from the outset.

[NanoGator]

You know, you could have tried using a more courteous attitude from the outset.


Heh. Actually you both contributed to that. Take it easy, guys.

[NanoGator]

Hey Chuck,

Out of curiosity, got any cool numbers to share with us on this?

[RobertoOrtiz]

I dont want to close the thread.
Please keep it light.
-R

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