New Radiosity tutorial

[Grey]

MJV, it's not at sleazyosity

it's here:

http://www.mvpny.com/RadTutMV/RadiosityTut1MV.html

[LucentDreams]

Great Stuff Michael, bout time someone cleared a lot of tht up, I must say the info on min and max clered some stuff up for me thanks a lot for this.

[xyno]

i am only learning to use cinema4d and this info is very usefull

thanks

[dmthurman]

It was very helpful Mike for you to spend the time and actually show the differences...Another print out going into my Slowly growing ring binder of internet tutorials..
David

[MJV]

Originally posted by Grey
MJV, it's not at sleazyosity

it's here:

http://www.mvpny.com/RadTutMV/RadiosityTut1MV.html

Thanks for clearing that up for me Grey.

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by dmthurman
It was very helpful Mike for you to spend the time and actually show the differences...Another print out going into my Slowly growing ring binder of internet tutorials..
David

hmm so I'm not the only one that does this ;)

[BrandonS]

Relax Kaiskai,it's normal, I have been printing things out for a long time and have a stack almost a foot thick. I think my inkjet replacement costs may have funded HP's buyout of Compaq:surprised

[dmthurman]

I think I have a printing fetish.......The one thing i don't like about Cinema 4d is that the user base isn't as large as, say 3dmax, but then again, I probably would then be constantly reading and printing tutorials.....Gawd several trees are happy that I choose this C4d....

AND YET ANOTHER REASON TO GET CINEMA, IT'S ENVIROMENTALLY BETTER THAN MAX......

[Grey]

Half of Max's users downloaded it off some warez site :D So don't feel bad...

At least if you run across a Cinema4D user, you're pretty safe in assuming he's not a thief... :D

[dmthurman]

If I would have known that.............I'd be using MAX..........naw not really, tried a demo once and the interface sucked......I'll stick to my Rhino and C4d and be happy........Both btw I paid dearly for......
D.T.

[Grey]

:beer:

Rhino + C4D is a great combo... (if only we could get opennurbs into C4D... then I'd be reeely happy :D)

[neilyb]

Well, don't get carried away, there was a copy of V6 flying around for a while.......lets face facts the most used softwares in the world generally are those which are easiest to crack...3DS Max...Flash.....I am convinced that companies know their software is too easy but realise their user base will overflow to those people that otherwise could not afford it, then the software becomes a standard and legit users have to buy it cos 75% of the world uses it......just look at Flash!

[AdamT]

I don't condone it, but I agree that companies who produce really expensive software probably benefit more from warez than they lose from it.

[dmthurman]

Me thinks autocad refutes that argument. Acad is the standard in my industry (Construction), and I think it's going to continue to be for a long long time. I will agree that companies have assumed a certain amount of users will steal there program, and that it will build up their user base, but I think time in the market plays as critical a role as anything. Something like 90% of all drawings by the federal government are done in DWG format. Acad has a huge history, simular to Adobe, of users developing their skills on the product. We have two Cad guys on our job working full time, with a combined 35 years of experience with just Acad . The reason they are on our job is their skills on Acad, not turbo cad, vectorworks or some other program. Once a program develops a vibrant users community, nurtures 3 party developers, and creates a dynamic enviroment for users to develop their skills through tutorials, classes, etc. it's very hard for another software company to get in. The biggest problem that I see with C4D, is not with it's software, but the way it's treating the user community. No online forum on it's website, no publications to extend learning, (other than privately published works, a total of two in english). I think that for a small company, McNeel and Associates with their program Rhino is doing something correctly, by making the programers more accessible to the user group, listening to the user group, and in some ways acting as huge cheerleaders. Considering how short a time Rhino has been out, it's really grown amazingly fast. Not because it can be had for free, but because it's good software, priced correctly,and a smart company. I think that C4D is great software, decently priced, but I do question how smart of a company it is.

D.T.

PS...Sorry about the long post.........Gawd I hate wordy posts...

[neilyb]

Well I could then argue that since packages such as Max and Flash are fun to use and learn people want to have a play. Whereas Autocad is a specific app for a technical purpose and not seen as something fun for the majority of people......in a similar way that not many people would want a cracked copy of IBM DB2 to play around with and have fun (unless you like that sort of thing....?)....hope you get my meaning?

[AdamT]

Yeah, I've said before that Maxon should have its own forum and should be more open about Cinema's development. I agree that McNeel is a great model to follow.

That sid ... I think that Postforum is in effect Maxon's de facto forum, and it is monitored by several Maxon tech reps, programmers, and management types, all of whom contribute on a more-or-less consistent basis.

[neilyb]

There are also a few of them about here. I agree that it may be nice to have a Maxon forum, senduptheflares.com is a forum run by the Englsih supplier (not sure how much Maxon have to do with it) but there is never much activity there.
Still, it would be nice to have a forum with Maxon specific competitions (then I would stand a better chance of winning than I do here.....) and questions. Although so far this site has proven very good in the Cinema department......not complaining about the number of responses we get here....

[Grey]

Adobe WISHES TO GOD they had the userbase AutoCAD does...

But then, architects (big firms even) in the northwest seem to have grappled onto ArchiCAD and Vector Works... (and it's giving the print houses ulcers, as neither conform to AutoCAD's plot protocols, which are the standard across the printing industry).

AutoCAD is very very difficult to learn and understand. You almost have to have a liscense just to have the tech support in order to learn it. Stealing it simply won't get you anywhere...

Rhino, BTW, had 100,000 in their beta. It's not just because they're the best constructed American 3D Program (I swear, only Cinema4D is more solid), it's because they are the best constructed American 3D Program and EVERYBODY knows it (and that it's easy to use and that it's precise).

Interestingly enough, some people consider to percieve it as a "low end" program... due to price.

[AdamT]

I love the fact that McNeel has an open beta program. I think that contributes so much to the user's sense of participation in and development of the program.

To me McNeel's success totally destroys the overused argument that development has to be kept under wraps until the last minute in order to preserve one's competitive advantage. Well if tipping the competition to one's new features is such a disadvantage, how come Rhino is kicking everyone's ass? Hell, Rhino was in open beta for years before it even went commercial! How come the competition didn't wipe it out before it was even released?

[Grey]

because Rhino's competition doesn't exist. (Well, maybe SolidWorks)

It's the only dedicated NURBS modeller I know of.

Now it's entrenched in the engineering field...

But part of it could be that nobody really took it seriously until it was too late. I'm not arguing with you, BTW... but Rhino did have timing on its side... there were a tonne of people jumping into 3D at the time. Poser 3 had just been released, for instance. Rhino became an instant hit within the Poser community which is no small number of people. Granted, that's not the market that Rhino was after... but it certainly didn't hurt.

[AdamT]

I'm not arguing either--just discussing. :p

I see your point, but SolidWorks, FormZ, and EI were all kicking around. They could have seen well in advance what Rhino was going to offer, how good it was, and how (relatively) inexpensive it was going to be. They could have said, "hey, we need to put together a package with x, y, and z features and give it a competitive price." But only in the last few *months* has SolidWorks offered an affordable package, and even then it doesn't match Rhino.

I guess my point is, companies should rely on the quality of their product, not secret gimmicks, to sell themselves. What they might lose in revealing a proprietary feature they more than make up for in user loyalty. IMHO. :)

[LucentDreams]

The main reson that maxon doesn't have its own forum is they have never needed it, they have two hue forums, postforum and 3dtreff, which are both very active, one is german based one is english. YOu should also not how young C4D is as a serious 3D app and how young it is in north america. Only since version five which is four maybe five years ago. Thats pretty young, you know they days of max 3 and LW 5 maya 2.X and SI 3, well they were all well established when C4D came into North America, with a pretty decent communtiy in Europe. Thats pretty good, but why create a site forum when most of their employees visit one forum or another anyways, sure only a few have that Maxon title in their names, but You'd be amazed, spend a week or two at postforum and I guarantee you will know some people from maxon, though oyu may not know you knowthat, even here we have Rick and Imashination, Janine has posted a small bit too, that not too bad. Actually avery Forum started for C4D outside of the main three have failed or done miseraly up uuntil cgtalk joined in this is the only one to do well, and thats mainly because no one gets as much information here as they do in postforum, even if the layout sucks you still go cause there is so much there.

[Erik Heyninck]

1/ no one mentionned the creative cow forum where Arndt von Koenigsmarck, Thorn and mark Simpson "rule" (hehe). Or the Bhodinut forum which is not vey active, but often beyond my grasp.
2/ I do visit the German Forum often (learning the language) and it's extremely active, very tolerant, very young and fanatically enthusiastic. Even if you don't understand the language, just see how many posts a day it gets.
3/ The norm in the print world is still Quark X-Press. Adobe InDesign is much, much better that XP, but conservatism and tradition rule. This same attitude can be found in 3D: Max for games and Maya if want to be taken seriously. Hahaaa. Imo no one beats Maxon in price/quality. No yearly renewable serial, no dongles. Nothing as bad as being the top as you can only go down. Cinema is growing, and Maxon's market strategy is very well planned. (my idea). At one time I doubted between Rhino and Cinema, but the latter seemd to give more options on the future. And I love German thoroughness.

By the way, and to go back to the start-topic: thanks a lot for your info. It's well organised, based on sound research and err...something to add to the collection of printed tuts I have. (When upgrading to Art7, you did not get a manual, except for a pdf one on the cd's. So I printed the pdf. In colour. And that is MUCH more handy than the printed book. I'd prefer Maxon to include a colour cartridge for my printer to a black and white printed manual)

[dmthurman]

excellent disscussion guys...It gives me hope for C4d, software is only as good as it's users, and this was as intelligent as forum disscussion as i've read in a while.. (Hmm intelligence in a forum, that's an oximoron I believe).... Grey, I'm in Seattle, Let's start a C4D users group......oh shit that sounds like too much work......
D.T.

[Grey]

Erich, actually, adobe still has a lot to learn about Printing, which is what InDesign is supposed to do. It's a nightmare for Offset press operators to use InDesign files, whereas Quark files are consistently usable.

dmthurman, I'm on Bainbridge Island if you're interested in meeting sometime... :D

[neilyb]

Why can't someone come up with an app combining Quark, indesign, illustrator and Freehand. Quark on it's own is the best layout program but sucks big time....ie. it crashes, it forgets your picture paths, it corrupts documents.....yet we have to use it!

I like this forum best, besides I only have time to visit one and I like everything here! I LOVE YOU GUYS.......er.....well nearly!

[Erik Heyninck]

This should in fact stay a topic on Cinema, but I can't resist the temptation (ahh...human weakness!). A printer never works directly with Quark or InDesign files. These are only used to save the files in the app's own format so as to be able them to open them in their full glory. Id and Q are transit applications, and what counts is the input and the output. The output should be traditionally PostScript, eps and , luckily, more and more PDF. This output file then goes either directly to the rip, or to an imposition app like Preps and from there to the rip and then to the film making device. (don't know the English word for that). Both Q and ID write good Postscript, but while Q still needs Distiller to make PDF,and we all know that using Distiller is asking for trouble, ID has its own PDF output which is very good.
As for the input: import Photoshop files, no more hard-edged clipping paths, etc etc... make ID the more interesting app. You may argue that Quark still has a better workflow, but that also depends on being used to it or not. Quark is the market leader, no doubt, and will stay that way due to the conservatism of the printing world (in their minds they're still in the 17th century). They do make a very good and reliable app, but ID outshines it in 90% of all features, including the price tag. As for Adobe having a lot to learn about printing: Postscript was developed by them. So was PDF. Their fonts are the industry standard. So are Photoshop and Illustrator. I do not like their will to power, but I look at the results, not at my emotional attitude.
Sorry for this non-Cinema entry, but I could not resist. When I disagree, I disagree with people I respect. So no personal attack meant. If you want to reply, why not write me a mail so we can leave the forum to Cinema (on which we do agree as being our favourite 3Dapp) ?

[Grey]

Erik, edgeclipping is the big reason why Quark will remain #1. Until Adobe can do that well.

Offset printing won't go away for many reasons. The big one: paper is paper. Printing on hard media won't change. You're still facing the exact same problems as they were fifty years ago. You mention that the printing press is behind the times? No, it's not. The Computer printer's output standards has tollerances of 1/16 of an inch. The Offset press has tollerances of 1/1000th of an inch, by far superior.

InDesign has a much better workflow than does Quark. It's at the printing stage that InDesign lacks.

For our purposes, where we're dealing exclusively with electronic media, that doesn't matter at all, thankfully.

[AdamT]

What ever happened to Pagemaker? Like ten years ago when I had a brief flirtation with DTP Pagemaker was the big cheese--right up there with Quark.

[LucentDreams]

I was taugh on Freehand and Pagemaker inhighschool, and trust me when indesign came out I fell in love with it, Pagemaker just doesn't compare IMO. Especially in workflow, I prefered FH over PM even just becaue PM was terrible to work in.

[Erik Heyninck]

I do it all, from design to lay-out, to Preps, to the Avantra, plate making and printing on our Heidelberg Speedmaster. I even still work with leaden fonts on a pre-WWII Heidelberg typo press.
Of course offset won't go away. And if you're happy with your app and want to protect it, feel free to do so. Me, I like ID, but I don't want to make publicity for it and I respect other people's choices.
I didn't want to critique nor start a discussion.
I only wanted to say that: A/Maxon is a challenger which means energetic and B/ that I don't believe in the mentality that "if you don't use this app, you're not a pro."
I only mentionned InDesign because higher up this thread Autocad was mentionned.
Ahh...temptations!

[Grey]

<---would be ecstatic if Quark went away... it's horrible to work with on the software side...

[neilyb]

Would you be reffering to the crashes, corrupted documents, constantly forgetting the hundreds of links you have to images at print time.....etc.....?

[Grey]

Erik Heyninck,

You're right of course on most counts.

Like Quark, however, there are real reasons AutoCAD was the only one to use for a very long time. Large Format Printer Manufacturers simply didn't support anyone else, so it was up to the upstart cad guys to step up to the plate, which they have done.

When you submit a file from AutoCAD to print at a reprographics shop, you send it as a PLT file. The print shop will open the file on an OCE or a KIP machine and plot it. Nothing else would work until recently, now they can use PDF plots, some Architects are ditching AutoCAD in favour of VectorWorks and others...

[RickBarrett]

Originally posted by dmthurman
excellent disscussion guys...It gives me hope for C4d, software is only as good as it's users, and this was as intelligent as forum disscussion as i've read in a while.. (Hmm intelligence in a forum, that's an oximoron I believe)

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about a radiosity tutorial? :rolleyes:

I agree though, the part between the environmental aspects of C4D and the desktop publishing discussion was interesting.

And BTW - this MAXON employee much prefers CGTalk - and not just because I'm the moderator.

- Rick -

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