Will the Blender UI ever reach the level of Maya?

[J.K.Makowka]

Not being a coder, I can't answer this question, but I wonder how hard it would be to put the basic paradigms of the Maya UI into Blender?
The 'problem' is that most of the Blender 'lovers' just like their GUI, and don't want to change it at all.
The new meshtools will definitly help, but overall I guess Blender will just stay more or less the way it is... that is not necessarily bad, but you will have to get used to the GUI.

I am not a big fan of the GUI either, but it really isn't as bad as some people think it is.

[gabio]

The 'problem' is that most of the Blender 'lovers' just like their GUI, and don't want to change it at all.
The new meshtools will definitly help, but overall I guess Blender will just stay more or less the way it is... that is not necessarily bad, but you will have to get used to the GUI.

I am not a big fan of the GUI either, but it really isn't as bad as some people think it is. You can't compare Blender to maya. because they don't work internaly the same way, and you don't work on the same data: mesh vs nurbs if I remeber right. The bleder UI might change in the following year. But then it will be because blender will reache version 3.0 and then the bottleneck the developer encounter now will be recoded entirely. Because in a way the problem now is: the platform is limitative working on the same stuff since the 1.x days. of course there is some "standard" that restrict new stuff. If fact: to get the new face:edge selection, an entire shunk of code has to be recoded from scratch. It will arrive by small shot of rewrite here and there.

[pnoland]

I personally don't feel the Blender UI needs to be changed but allowing more custom settings would be welcome. Being able to alter the color settings is great but I'd like to be able to change the button layout, button sizes, things like that. Every application you switch to or try is going to have a large learning curve when it comes to the user interface but that's normal. That's why tutorials and manuals are great. I'm sure since you find the Maya UI intuitive you will come to find the Blender UI intuitive as well...it just takes some getting used to as does every other UI. I've used (and still use most of) Silo, Modo, Cinema 4D, Maya (PLE), Softimage XSI, Zbrush2 and they all have different interfaces but none are better then the other in my opinion, just different.

[jedilaw]

Well, I think I need to be more specific. What I like with Maya is, for example, say I want to extrude a face. All I have to do is right click on my object, select "face" mode, then click the dot in the middle of the face. Plus, I can select one of the extrusion handles alone and do a constrained extrusion along that axis by mmmb-dragging. In Blender, I'd have to select every one of the vertexes and extrude them together, and there is no graphical way to do a constrained extrude. I'm sure there's a hotkey, among the billions in Blender, to do constrained extrusions, but in Maya I just click on the blue handle for Z, red for X, green for Y, et cetera. Very quick.

The underlying data may be different, but that's no reason why the icon couldn't encompass grababble handles like in Maya. Further, both programs are capable of Poly, NURBS, and Sub-d modeling.

This is, of course, one of those personal preference things. I may very well like Maya better because I used it first and have read books about it. But there have been pretty cosistent comments on the web, and in reviews, that Blender's UI is the main weakness. If, in fact, the UI stays the way it does because of long-term users, and the community stays small because of the UI, why not make the changes optional, in order to make it more appealing to more users? After all, the more people use it, the more potential volunteers you'll have to code for and test the open source software.

Just my humble opinion.

[Apollux]

, or do you think it will always be (pardon the imminent sexism) the ugly chick at the dance who're really smart and witty, once you get to know her?

By the may cross-consistent philosopy choices that the developers has made over the years I've been knowing Blender, I can assure you that this is an ugly chick that likes to be considered ugly, and loved by only her really close friends.

Sure it will get many REALLY need fixes, like the customizable hotkeys, etc. .. but somehow it still will find a way to be the nice girl using superb makeup and a really geek-like dress. We kind of like her that way, call it counter-culture or whatever. :)

By the way, all those UI fixes that you mentioned: changing the buttons layout, size, etc. are allready in there, the problem is that as things stand right now, you need a python script to activate them. Someone even wrote a "UI creator" script, so that your own scripts can modify the UI. How is that?

Currently, UI alterations are sand-boxed to the script windows... but an script window can be maximized and it can contain a full UI for the whole app. Do you remember the earlier versions of the Make Human script? while it was running Blender looked like everthing but Blender... you got body analisis charts, comand-line input windows, It was fun to see.

[kazix]

Hi. Theres already an option in blender to switch the functions of the mouse buttons as well as axis constrained extrusion and yes it uses a hotkey, but you'll find hotkeys are faster once learned then a graphical way. Also, in the next release the features you talk of will be there. Select modes for edge and face select, as well as backface culling now. There seems to have been a big effort lately to make the blender GUI easier for people to use and it looks to be improving very quickly.

[AdmiralRa]

In my opinion. The Blender interface isn't as bad as it seems. I used to despise it. though, in the last few months, i've been fooling around with Blender, i've really grown to know the interface. You get used to it after a month or more.

Although, there could be improvements here and there, which is the case in almost any application. No Interface is perfect. So we just have to learn the one's that are given. :/

[puzzledpaul]

----------

[jedilaw]

Well, this discussion is specific to Blender, namely the future development path of the UI. I refer to Maya for comparison purposes only, not to discuss Maya in the Blender forum.

Besides, with Blender being open-source and the community giving the devs input on what is needed and desired, it would seem that having these kind of UI-centric discussions would be an integral part of improving Blender.

By the may cross-consistent philosopy choices that the developers has made over the years I've been knowing Blender, I can assure you that this is an ugly chick that likes to be considered ugly, and loved by only her really close friends. That would seem counter-intuitive to the basic process of establishing a software community. Apps like this grow based on network effects: the more people use it, the more valuable it becomes. DOS did not start out ubiquitous, but grew more important as the number of users on the platform increased. Attracting more users to Blender can only improve things over the long run, because of the influx of new, talented people into the community (not that there aren't talented people now, but one can never have too many). An open-source project like this depends upon a vibrant talent pool to grow.

Acting like the UI should stay ugly so that only really dedicated people will use it is, IMHO, like insisting on a command-line interface over a GUI, so that only people who know all of the proper commands can use an app. This reminds me of the UNIX wizards that pop up on Dilbert from time to time.

[puzzledpaul]

----------

[Rabid pitbull]

lol turf war....

[Xtrude]

Nah, I agree with PP on this one... it would seem that this sort of thing happens a way too often, and sometimes seems to be with some semblence of purpose... which is too bad really... Let each app stand on it's own, and keep the piggy backing to a minimum...

[jedilaw]

<< Well, this discussion is specific to Blender ... >>

Precisely my point, squire - this is the Wings forum - Blender has its own :)

pp Not to be a smartass or anything, but this is the Wings 3d / Blender 3d forum. Says so at the top of the thread. Combo meal, folks.

As for minimizing piggybacking, yes, let's all use different window paradigms so that the minimize feature on one app is the close feature on another app, with the same icon. Let's remove slider bars in all of these windows programs, since they're all obviously copying one another. Come to think of it, let's stop using GUIs at all, since they're just piggypacking on Windows, which piggybacked on Mac, which piggybacked on Xerox PARC. This way, we can all be unique with our own private apps, and learning curves will be maximized, with minimized productivity. Sounds good to me!

[rebo]

The blender UI willl never match maya's because blender's is fundementally flawed at the most very basic level.

[puzzledpaul]

----------

[Apollux]

The blender UI willl never match maya's because blender's is fundementally flawed at the most very basic level.
You are in for some huge & hot flames :twisted:

[pnoland]

PP is right, this is the wings3d portion of the Wings/Blender forum. At the top there is a link to enter the Blender protion of it.

[Nitefyre]

The blender UI willl never match maya's because blender's is fundementally flawed at the most very basic level.

what?!? where did you come up with this?!

[jedilaw]

<< Not to be a smartass or anything ... >>

Me neither - but this IS the Wings forum - not Blender.

Yes, the CGT front page says both (for their convenience - not ours :) ) - but, once accessed the reader / viewer has a choice between them.

<< Combo meal, folks >>
Same house - but different rooms ...

pp

http://www.cgtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=91


(If a mod or someone had just (quietly) moved this over - we wouldn't have got to this point ... )
Sorry, honestly thought this was one forum for both apps. Any way I can move this myself?

[AdmiralRa]

Any way I can move this myself?
Nope, you'll have to wait for a moderator to do that.

[tinonetic]

who says the world is Maya or Maya is the world (no offense to the preachers of Maya).
No one doubts that Maya is good (in the right hands) and by the same token, no one doubts that Blender is good too (in the right hands as well).

You speak about Maya with a passion, think of blender in the same light. It's a passion!!

[tinonetic]

maybe u couldnt cope with the UI (no offence again).... then i guess it's a matter of preference, isnt it. The Maya interface suits u, but we cant impose ita UIs on Blender, just coz we like the Maya interface. Think about a model u created of something you like.obviously u vizualize it differently from others. Somone comes along and says, no, no it's not supposed to be like that, make it like so-and-so. It's a creation, it's an art, it's quite personal. You dont want to change it. It's the way you visioned (if there's such a word) it!

think, Blender community, programmers and users, think of their passion and vision of their also-great software....

i've expressed myself, i think (or maybe i should've said it differently? :D )

[Giangmatric]

Well, I think I need to be more specific. What I like with Maya is, for example, say I want to extrude a face. All I have to do is right click on my object, select "face" mode, then click the dot in the middle of the face. Plus, I can select one of the extrusion handles alone and do a constrained extrusion along that axis by mmmb-dragging. In Blender, I'd have to select every one of the vertexes and extrude them together, and there is no graphical way to do a constrained extrude. I'm sure there's a hotkey, among the billions in Blender, to do constrained extrusions, but in Maya I just click on the blue handle for Z, red for X, green for Y, et cetera. Very quick.

Nah this is how I do extrude in blender: select the verts then press e then ok and after that x, y or z to move to that direction.

[Xtrude]

Even though this "blender" topic is in the wrong forum, I am kinda enjoying the humour of it all... Blender's UI has reworking to go yet in the way I see things... and it's modeling tools have a ways to go as well... I mean do you really know how comical it is to read about Maya's moedling tools vs Blender, within of all things, the Wings3D forum... haha, now that's funny... way too funny

[llunasol]

Hi jedilaw and all.

I understand your thoughts and I can add that when I started on Blender on january I gave up because I could understand anything, I thought it was extremely difficult to use, after years and years using design tools (FreeHand, Photoshop, Illustrator and sooo many others). But reading on the Blender forums veterans said that the GUI was so easy I couldn't understand anything. My need to enter on the 3D world pushed me to try Blender one month later, just after the 2.30 version which changed the GUI to the present standard and after some effort at the beggining and many months using it I love the way it works, different to the rest I've used but very, very congruent itself, fast and responsive.

I've been teacher of the above mentioned design apps, and I remember that when I was very used to FreeHand I couldn't be fluent on Illustrator, and the months that I was mainly using Illustrator I was not fluent with FreeHand. They are far more similar between them than to Blender but the differences are "different enough" to be fluent with one or the other.

On the other hand the new Blender release on beta testing right now (2.35) has face and edges selection tools, and a glorious outliner among other additions:
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Mesh_editing_rewrite.425.0.html

My 2 cents :)

[StephanD]

I don't like colorful-icon cluttered UI's so I guess you know my opinion about Maya.

Most friends to whom I showed the Blender UI said it looked very good compared to the 'conformist'(to use thier terms) Maya one.Someone even asked me if it's a kid's program. ;) was funny.

[Xtrude]

haha, that was a funny one :D

I agree though, I mean the heck with all the fanciness, just deliver the toolset, and keep the realestate big open and free... that's what is so great about Wings3D... just you, your model, the mouse and the keyboard... modeling bliss I tell you...

[puzzledpaul]

----------

[jedilaw]

Well, I've been toying with the pre-release of 2.35 (they don't technically call it a "beta," so neither will I), and the addition of edge and face selection is a huge improvement, IMHO, and goes a long way towards the sort of interface I envision when I talk about Blender matching up with Maya. As for the whole issue of whether a graphical manipulator tool is preferable to keyboard-based shortcuts, I'll be the first to admit that that's a matter of taste. I like visual tools, even if there's also a shortcut available, but your mileage may vary. I don't claim that Maya is perfect, nor do I love everything about the interface, but I see no reason why good ideas from one app can't be applied by another.

Perhaps the question I'm asking should be rephrased: what is about Maya (or any of the other commercial products) that inspires rational, intelligent, experienced people to pay $2,000.00 for it as opposed to using Blender at no cost? What are the advantages that these 3d shops see in the commercial apps over open-source alternatives? Which of those advantages, if any, can or should the Blender development team implement?

[Xtrude]

Well... hmmm... did I ever tell you why I like the Wings3D UI? ;) Geez, I hope this is the right forum I am participating in, here ;) :D

[Bentagon]

@jedilaw:
Maya is just better then Blender. Blender is great, definitly, but Maya just has more features, more plugins, etc. It's the industry's most used app. This helps immensly when working freelance or if you need certain plugins (the more the app is used, the more plugins are available). It's also easier to get a (freelance) job saying you do your work in Maya, then get a job when you do everything in Blender, despite what quality your work may have.

And finally, they can afford it :)
Good freelance contracts in advertising, etc. pays pretty well :)

- Bentagon

[bbirras]

blenders gui has non overlapping windows...the few pop ups (n-key) are transparent and not as anoying as maya´s.

well I prefer the blender way- you did put the example of clicking the face and clicking again on the blue handle.

in blender I just go e-z on the keyboard and achieve the same in a fraction of the time. generally blenders workflow is faster...all you need to know is the keyboard hotkeys

the maya gui can be customized as one pleases, so my maya gui is most of the time just one big full screen perspective view. no menu, no tool-bar, no nothing. everything is reachable through the spacebar (that reminds me of blender), right click or whatever hotkey for one of my custom marking-menus

the blender-gui can also be customized, maybe not in the extend of marking-menus, but by setting up windows/ button windows, etc. and switching back and forth from full-screen mode with the cursor in the window and ctrl. arrow up/down, having huge buttons when needed (+/- key) in full screen mode.

most ppl dont realize/know the hidden power of it, and yes one can change colours and fonts/font size, set up different windows for modelling, animation, etc.

the new ui has more clickable menus now, a future I hardly ever use in blender, as most functions have a very intuitive hotkey assigned example: g=grab r=rotate s=scale (compare to maya; lol ; well I changed these to blender, as I kept hitting g to move in maya and got some surprises, depending on my last action, heh)

I must say I ve more trouble with the maya gui, as sometimes pop-up windows start going full screen, and when I minimize them they disapear..so instead of having a nice small outliner, it is either full screen or minimized and gone (well it can be fixed easy, but it does interrupt, ahgggr)

conclusion: none! heh..each app one feels good at seems to be good, and others feel odd and completely wrong at first (thats what I thought of maya at first), but with the time it feels more and more familiar and one stops comparing apples and pears.

@puzzledPaul and the rest of the rock-steady-crew:
wings is a great tool, made by a great guy, used by nice ppl (this includes me)
just lets stop the continuous: THIS IS OUR FORUM, stuff, whenever a blender topic slips into the wings part of the forum. I dont think ppl do it on purpose to annoy you guys, its just not very clear at first glimpse that there is a separate blender-forum one click away.
I dont think that (keeping in mind the HUGE amount of posts that both forums have per month) one or the other blender post will hurt you guys that much.
would be the same with reverse situations...blender forum first-wings as a sub-forum, meaning a great deal of wings posts would slip into the blender forum..bahhh, but its not very informative having to read a continuous, this is not the blender forum in each thread that slips in--like once a month??--reason to spam each thread with off-topic. WRONG FORUM???

lets take it easy..its all about art
;) ;) ;)

[nemyax]

I wish the Maya GUI were getting improved at the rate that the Blender GUI is getting improved.

[StephanD]

Please don't take this the wrong way but I disagree with kinda all of what you wrote,but only on the opinion level ;)

Maya is just better then Blender
I personally hate it whenever I hear 'better' or 'best'.Am I alone?

This helps immensly when working freelance or if you need certain plugins
Having a software that 'plays well' with the rest of the high-end applications is what's the most important for a freelance artist.You or the clients may use something else for the final render and I haven't seen Maya being particularly oriented towards overall compatibility(nor any other of the top dog softs) so using Messiah,MB or maybe even Houdini should be considered.

That said,I know a big part of the freelancers exclusively use Maya(is that good?).


the more the app is used, the more plugins are available).
I consider this a BIG disadvantage apart for custom plugins on occasion and even that can give you some nasty incompatibilities.

The more plugins you need,the more some people will turn their backs on the software,not to mention some of them cost actually more than an Xsi seat.


And finally, they can afford it
That,I agree,but being the cheapskates I am and a satisfied SI user,I'm going for Xsi Foundation,it's 'All I need'.

Plus I still prefer modeling in wings,getting to give'em blokes donations and keep it alive,I'm sure Alias can survive without my 2000$

[jedilaw]

First off, to those who keep harping on the "this is the Wings forum" line: I did not know that when I started the thread, I apologized for the error somewhere on page 2 and asked if I can move it, was told only a mod can. There's nothing more I can do about where the thread originated. That being said, I'm still trying to keep the thread on topic based on what I thought was true at the time, namely that this was a dual-app forum.

Now, I asked yesterday what it is about Maya that makes 3d shops keep using it, at considerable cost, instead of using Blender at no cost. I also asked which of Maya's advantages, if any, can or should be added to Blender. One person took a stab at it, saying that Maya has more plugins available, is more compatible, et cetera. I'm not well informeed enough to agree or disagree with those arguments, but I am interested in seeing what the rest of you think. Really and truthfully, what aspect of Maya keeps people shelling out $2k per seat when they could use infinite Blender copies free of charge?

[puzzledpaul]

-----------

[bbirras]

Why maya for 2k (8k) when blender comes for free?

Check this thread:
http://www.blender.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2845

It shows that blender still is behind when it comes to functionality in certain aspects. At production level you need the job to be done, so you go for a tool that does it.

Blender can handle a lot of CG work and does it quite well indeed. There are a lot of python-scripts out there to make that task easy, too.
But obviously maya rules the marketplace due to functionality and the amount of MEL-scripts available clearly is superior.

When it comes down to which soft for the job, the competition is getting stronger and stronger. Alternatives exist. Get lightwave with the plug-in bundle available and its still less than maya unlimited or XSI (heh and Im not talking foundation).

Houdini was mentioned, but is it cheaper?? (talking about GUIs, wow!! houdini made me blink, :eek: )

Blender is maintained by a bunch of volunteer free time coders.

All the other apps employ professional staff.

So why use maya , XSI, Max or whatever instead of blender?

Functionality.

_________________________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________________

@puzzeledpaul (and evrybody out there. lol ) well I wrote @puzzeledpaul AND the rock-steady-crew (refering to the rest at the wings3d forum), so I did not personally blame you for continuous posting the same, it also adressed all the others. :) :) heh, yeah, I know how you feel, Im a mod myself at blendpolis.org and would just like to move the threads as soon as I see them, but heh, you guys can report it, if it does bother you so much. I dont report it, as we should be lucky to have a forum here at CGTalk and I try not to get on the mods nerves:
first act:
:cry: behh, behh (childish cry)daddy, daddy, there is another blender post in the wings forum, behhh, behh, move it, move it, behh, bähh
second act:
:banghead: damn, damn, another blender post in the wings forum, come here and MOVE IT!!
NOW!!
third act:
hey, mod. :deal: there is a blender thread at OUR wings forum :deal: , you better come and
end of the story:
:wip:
blender&wings forum

- so lets just keep it cool and ignore it. and lets party together! :buttrock: :buttrock:

[puzzledpaul]

Have emailed mod re thread move - EOS from my pov.

[bbirras]

ahh, you were to fast! I should have been faster with my edit :rolleyes: , well I had a ziggy and a cuppa outside.

lets hope someone acts..well or just read the last edit in my last thread :shrug:

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.