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Zack Attack
10-20-2004, 06:40 PM
does lightwave have cloth dynamics simular to http://www.syflex.biz/index.html (http://www.syflex.biz/index.html) b/c it's not available for lightwave.

uncon
10-20-2004, 06:42 PM
Yes and no, Lightwave has a cloth similar inside it (standard) that is actually quite nice. However, It's not quite as advanced as Syflex seems to be.

MadMax
10-20-2004, 07:29 PM
Yes and no, Lightwave has a cloth similar inside it (standard) that is actually quite nice. However, It's not quite as advanced as Syflex seems to be.
LOL! not quite as advanced? I like that. nice and "PC".

There are a lot of things I would say when comparing the two, but "Not quite as advanced" would not be one of them.

The nicest of my comparisons would be LW cloth sucks. It goes downhill from that.

JoshD
10-20-2004, 07:51 PM
Considering Syflex is $2200, I would think that LW isn't doing so badly. :)

MadMax
10-20-2004, 07:57 PM
Considering Syflex is $2200, I would think that LW isn't doing so badly. :)

You wouldn't say that if you had to do a scene that required realisitc looking cloth.

uncon
10-20-2004, 08:01 PM
It's like saying my Volkswagen fox isn't as advanced as a Porsche 911 turbo. They both have engines but that's about where the similarities end. But I like my car, and it gets me to where I want to go and is more practical than a Porsche 911.

That's my analogy for the day.

JoshD
10-20-2004, 08:07 PM
I'm just saying that Syflex costs way more than the full package of Lightwave costs. Considering Lightwave's main focus isn't cloth simulation, I would say I get what I pay for. Now, if only we had Syflex available for Lightwave. :)

Celshader
10-20-2004, 08:21 PM
The #1 problem with Motion Designer and ClothFX is the lack of documentation, something 1001 LightWave Tips & Tricks tries to correct.

Beyond that, I'm happy with the results I've gotten from LightWave's dynamics tools:
http://www.celshader.com/gallery/md/

MadMax
10-20-2004, 08:45 PM
I'm just saying that Syflex costs way more than the full package of Lightwave costs. Considering Lightwave's main focus isn't cloth simulation, I would say I get what I pay for. Now, if only we had Syflex available for Lightwave. :)
Did anyone notice or read the first post in the thread at all??????

Does LW have anything similar to Syflex. Not a question about relative prices or justifications. I won't even get into stupid car analogies.

The answer to his question in reality is no. LW cloth is not even remotely similar. Not by a long shot. It's cloth and it is okay for little things, but it is no way remotely similar to Syflex in the complexity of cloth simulations.

While we are at it, why not say that MS Paint is pretty good compared to photoshop?

or Videoscape 3D compared to Maya Unlimited?

Celshader
10-20-2004, 08:48 PM
The first post asked, "Does LightWave have cloth dynamics?"

The answer is yes.

Shade01
10-20-2004, 08:48 PM
Did anyone notice or read the first post in the thread at all??????

Does LW have anything similar to Syflex. Not a question about relative prices or justifications. I won't even get into stupid car analogies.

The answer to his question in reality is no. LW cloth is not even remotely similar. Not by a long shot. It's cloth and it is okay for little things, but it is no way remotely similar to Syflex in the complexity of cloth simulations.

While we are at it, why not say that MS Paint is pretty good compared to photoshop?

or Videoscape 3D compared to Maya Unlimited?
MadMax, please tone it down.

JoshD
10-20-2004, 08:55 PM
I would think it was an honest mistake for him. The rest of us thought the question was whether LW had cloth FX, while he took it as a question of comparison. Of course his disappointment in LW's cloth was shining through pretty strongly, but...

Regardless, CelShader, do you have more info on how you did the dynamics work? The one I'm interested in is the footsteps in the snow. That's pretty cool and I was just wondering how you did that.

Celshader
10-20-2004, 09:02 PM
Regardless, CelShader, do you have more info on how you did the dynamics work? The one I'm interested in is the footsteps in the snow. That's pretty cool and I was just wondering how you did that.
Thanks. :) That one came out of this thread:
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1181

...scroll down to post #8 for my Motion Designer settings. :)

JoshD
10-20-2004, 09:14 PM
Ahh, thanks for that. It's always the little things. You are right that the problem is all the undocumented tricks and tips needed in order to understand the FX tools. Guess I'll have to start reading my 1001 Tips and Tricks book!

pooby
10-20-2004, 09:32 PM
Syflex is in development for lightwave. That's what the Syflex team told me when I asked

ColinCohen
10-20-2004, 09:59 PM
Syflex is in development for lightwave. That's what the Syflex team told me when I asked
Strange. I asked the president of the company at Siggraph and he told me that they had no plans for a LW version. He said none of his customers had ever requested it.

JoshD
10-20-2004, 10:14 PM
Hey Colin, doubt you remember me. We met at Siggraph while I was demoing Mimic at the Newtek booth. Could you drop me a line? Through some terrible chain of events I lost many of the contacts I got at Siggraph, yours included. Thanks.

Personne
10-20-2004, 10:24 PM
Considering Syflex is $2200, I would think that LW isn't doing so badly. :)It's completly RIDICULOUS to sell a "plug-in" at a RIDICULOUS price like this.:rolleyes:

JoshD
10-20-2004, 10:27 PM
Oh, and on topic, I saw that commercial on TV where they pull the car cover off the nice car. That was done with Syflex and was incredible. I'd love to see someone who knows LW's cloth to try that. Be a great testcase.

I would like to see Syflex available for Lightwave, but I would have a hard time paying for it unless I got an FX heavy job that could justify it...

JoshD
10-20-2004, 10:29 PM
It's completly RIDICULOUS to sell a "plug-in" at a RIDICULOUS price like this.:rolleyes:

Not considering how incredible the plugin is. But, in the Lightwave world, yes, you are right. It's a little high. Maybe that's why they said they wouldn't be making it for Lightwave. :hmm:

Celshader
10-20-2004, 10:35 PM
Oh, and on topic, I saw that commercial on TV where they pull the car cover off the nice car. That was done with Syflex and was incredible.
The bottom part of the cloth was footage of a real cloth, but it's definitely a nice demonstration of what Syflex can do:
http://www.syflex.biz/gallery_method.html

MadMax
10-20-2004, 10:44 PM
The first post asked, "Does LightWave have cloth dynamics?"

The answer is yes.
Um, no, that was not the question. READ what he said again.

There is a very LARGE difference between:

1. does Lightwave have a cloth simulator (which you said)

and

2. Does LW have a cloth simulator SIMILAR to Syflex (which is his exact quote)


So the answer is NO, it does not.

Panikos
10-20-2004, 10:52 PM
What are the criteria for a deciding a product price ?
The necessity and the lack of similar quality tools.

I remember when the first VHS videos were out.
They were huge is size and costed $$$$$.
Today you can get a VHS video for $40.

So, whoever needs the quality of such a cloth simulator now, he has to pay the price or
wait for the future competition.

HowardM
10-20-2004, 10:56 PM
I tried this (http://www.3dink.com/carcloth.mov)and this (http://www.3dink.com/carcloth2.mov)after seeing the KIA ad....I bet if I was paid 3 weeks to get it done in LW I could do something similar. :D

this (http://www.3dink.com/cloth.mov)was created in less than 10 minutes, and calculates in seconds.

low res cloth for calc on left, only a few subds. hi res metalinked to low res on right, many many subds.... :D so you can calculate a very lowres thin cloth, and replace it with a thicker one, with details....the coolest part is point # nor order matter!

of course this was a quick test, sorry for low res QT, etc...but the point is ClothFX works :D

Celshader
10-20-2004, 11:05 PM
Um, no, that was not the question. READ what he said again.
I read it, MadMax. I still get a different impression than you. :rolleyes:

JoshD
10-20-2004, 11:08 PM
Um, no, that was not the question. READ what he said again.

There is a very LARGE difference between:

1. does Lightwave have a cloth simulator (which you said)

and

2. Does LW have a cloth simulator SIMILAR to Syflex (which is his exact quote)


So the answer is NO, it does not.

I understand where you are coming from on that. The way the rest of us read it, though, was that he was listing Syflex as an example of a cloth simulator and was wondering if there was anything like that for Lightwave. Maybe you were right that they were looking for a 3rd party solution instead of what is included in Lightwave, or maybe not. I think that part of the conversation, though, is pretty much dead.

Thanks Howard for the samples. Always fun to see your experiments. I need to get into clothFX. I enjoy playing around with HardFX much more, though, because there are less settings to learn and it was so hard to get good results before Lightwave 8. :)

huskerdude
10-21-2004, 06:06 AM
Irrespective of the original intention of the thread starter, it would be very interesting to see a direct comparison of the areas where Syflex is better and practical examples of how it is so.

I've used MD/ClothFX and I had the chance of using an implementation of Syflex in Maya (along with reading the manual) and what struck me most was how similar Syflex was to MD. The tweakable parameters are all very similar - gravity, viscosity, wind, air resistance, spring. The relationship between points on the target and polys on the collision object was the same, too.

Syflex was very sensitive to the scale of the overall simulation and seemed to be quicker with low polygon simulations than MD but got bogged down with high poly counts in a similar way to MD.

There didn't seem to be any native metalink type functionality in Syflex.

Both had extensive weighting attributes via weight maps and artisan and both had methods of constraint via reference nulls/pins etc.

I'd love to see someone post details on exactly where Syflex has advantages over MD/ClothFX and if it's the more subjective stuff like ease of use, speed and stability then some direct examples would be cool.

I'd have thought that the Kia ad was a product of not just Syflex but of the access to other deformers provided within the host application (Maya or XSi maybe). From my experience it's the overall framework within which the cloth effect sits that has a huge bearing on how the overall simulation finally looks...

- huskerdude

Werner
10-21-2004, 08:46 AM
I played around with Syflex for XSI and I really loved it. It was easy to use, and most important, the calculations was spot on...no cloth passing through objects. I think that is what you pay for.

As far as ClothFX in LW goes...I was VERY disappointed when I found that the so called weight maps to control clot was a crock of shit. As far as my knowledge stretches, weight painted on cloth objects reacts 100% or 0%...no in between. Have a look at this tread...maybe I'm missing something. http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.ph...ighlight=weight (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=175917&highlight=weight)

Monty
10-21-2004, 08:50 AM
Hey, read this thread on LW and Syflex ca. 2002.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=13446

DOH, its right there at the bottom of this page on related threads...

huskerdude
10-21-2004, 09:13 AM
Werner - I don't know whether it was the specific impementation in Maya or how it differs from the one currently in XSi, but I was certainly getting collision artifacts in Syflex Maya in the same circumstances as in MD i.e. where you have a very rapid movement and/or where the edge of your cloth object hits a collision side on...

I agree about the lack of a graduated fixed parameter in ClothFX although the fact that all the other remaining parameters (hold, substructure, resistance, weight etc.) *are* able to react to weight gradients can help simulate stiffer/heavier local areas. It seems strange that Fixed is the only one unable to respond to weight map values less than 100% when all the other parameters can...

- huskerdude

Sil3
10-21-2004, 09:25 AM
It's completly RIDICULOUS to sell a "plug-in" at a RIDICULOUS price like this.:rolleyes: LOL?

Did u saw Hellboy? Try to do those cloths with LW (on the same timeframe) and then tell me if the price they ask is ridiculous.

Anyway, i dont see nobody forcing us to buy Syflex, i would love to have it but i cant afford it, whos to blame me or them?

People forget all the time that this are tools for highend production, not to play at home and show to friends some cool cloth simulations, the same away u dont work for free, they wont give their software for free or near it.

If u really need it, then save the money, im sure that if u really really need it it will pay for itself in a job or a couple, like every software purchase this is an investment.

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