any mac maya users here?

[studiomiguel]

I'm using Maya on a 733 g4 at work. It runs smooth and stable, but slow. I think that has less to do with the hardware than with Maya and OSX together. I'm anticipating some SERIOUS speed increases when 4.5 couples with 10.2.
I say it's slow by comparison because my second workstation is a six year old Onyx box running 4.0. Whilst the renders are much faster on my G4, the in and out of day today working (can you say hotbox) is faster on the Onyx. Go figure.
Fingers crossed for Septmeber..... we will see.

Caio.

[bigfatMELon]

I use it on the Mac. I think the 450 class machines are too slow for Maya. I keep hearing from people who report a very sluggish experience while my dual 1ghz seems to zip along just fine. Side by each, my mac and my PC aren't very far apart in performance save for rendering and all of the blue screens of death on the PC side.

-jl

[seasterling]

I'm currently using a DP450 and Maya performance is pretty bad. Problem being that Maya is not capable of utilizing both processors. I don't believe there are any Altivec optimizations either. I'm making this assumption since LightWave runs fine on this box, several times faster than Maya in similiar tasks.

I was pretty disappointed to hear that the only part of 4.5 that is DP capable is the renderer and IPR. I was even more disappointed with Apple's line of desktops last week. They obviously have something kickass coming, but when? I wouldn't count on Sept., the 1.25 machines aren't shipping until then. Probably January at least. I'm speculating though, I don't know anything. I'm currently looking for a good deal on a last gen DP 1gig box til then.

[studiomiguel]

wait wait wait wait wait.... you mean to tell me that even though the OS is now DP aware.... Maya has missed the DP boat and won't be utilizing the multiprocessor setup? What the hell? Why can't they just produce a piece of software and a piece of hardware that get along?

Or am I wrong? I suppose that the video card handles 'most' of the work outside of the renderer and so I shouldn't bitch too much. Do you have a source on this?

[seasterling]

I imagine/hope that in time more of Maya will be MP capable. My source is A/W. Of course they won't comment on any future plans. I'd be interested to know how much of Maya is MP capable on other platforms.

Lots of tasks are processor oriented, so no you can't just count on a fast video card.

[bigfatMELon]

Maya on all platforms is only as MP aware as is being delivered for v4.5. It has been mentioned that it is slightly more MP aware on OSX than for others but in what I consider to be rather inconsequential ways, like MP audio support. Nice, but not much to get up and scream about.

It would be nice if they offered hardware skinning where applicable.

-jl

[verti]

:annoyed: so what is a|w going to do? there are some 3d apps that take full advantage of MP... and their tools are getting better and better with every release. that's really strange to me. i thought that a|w was going to release 4.5 with full MP support. now you killed me... ill have to wait with my order till i see the app working on mp 1ghz g4. maybe i should look into buying a pc and XSI?

thanks to all of you for replies... :thumbsup:

verti.

[matty429]

I thought I heard SubD's support Mp in 4.5

[seasterling]

The response I got from A/W was that only the renderer and IPR were MP aware in 4.5.

[bigfatMELon]

Originally posted by verti
: so what is a|w going to do? there are some 3d apps that take full advantage of MP... and their tools are getting better and better with every release. that's really strange to me. i thought that a|w was going to release 4.5 with full MP support. now you killed me... ill have to wait with my order till i see the app working on mp 1ghz g4. maybe i should look into buying a pc and XSI.
verti.

What AW is going to do is a question for them.

When AW says the mac version will be full MP, what they mean is that it will have their full implementation of MP with respect to what is available on every other platform. keep in mind that there are some parts of a 3D app that can't ever go MP, like dynamics for instance.

If raw speed is the most important thing for you, then maybe a different app/platform is your gig.

-jl

-jl

[matty2x4]

Hi. I was wondering through the maya chats. I am a Cinema 4D user and mac based. Im thinking of doing a course on 3-D the local ones are in Maya and the local market is maya based (weta ooooh). I have a G3-450 576ram that runs Cinema just fine. I dont have a huge amount of spondoolies($$) should I look into buying a new mac or a pc for doing work at home? I am really not keen on pcs... mac boy for 10 years now. I just need enough to learn and perhaps build a show reel on... is the difference in preformance that big from mac - pc?
thanks

[matty429]

If cash is an issue ...you should be using PC's in the first place

[matty2x4]

OK, what if cash isn't an issue. what about
1: Performance
2: Speed
3: Reliabilaty (sp)
4: support / documentation
5: crossplatformability
6: What do the pros use?
???:shrug:
thanks
2x4:wavey:

[studiomiguel]

The big boys use windows and linux boxes (pcs) in addition to SGIs for 3d. We're talking BIG studios, and most moderate sized studios. Smaller studios split things up pretty evenly I think. We are a mac/sgi shop ourselves. Personally, for single man productions I think the mac stands up just fine as long as you are willing to sacrifice a little in the 3rd party market.
As far as cost goes... typically you can get a much cheaper pc that will generate 3d at as fast a rate.. you sacrifice non-essential components for higher end parts that are dedicated to the 3rd deminsion (i.e. video cards and hard drives as opposed to sound cards and set dressing [the box the thing sits in])
I love my mac... but when I have a problem with a package the FIRST thing my friends tell me (without even trying to solve the problem) is, "it's probably because you are using a mac". My point. The biggest problem with Mac3d is the stigma of using a mac for 3d.......

A three year macintosh 3d veteran.

[verti]

:eek:

"it's probably because you are using a mac" heheh... that's funny... i would rather say "it's probably because you dont have enough knowledge" (NO OFFENSE HERE!). everything that can be done on a pc can be done on a mac - that's my opinion. computers are just our tools. i am mac user for about 9 years now and i would never choose the pc (to work at HOME) even if they are 3 times faster than macs. why? because they are stable (for me), and i dont know any other OS that is so user friendly (maybe besides the linux).
i just have to think about the MP machine because i dont have enough money to create a rendering farm.

:wip:

verti.

[ambient-whisper]

stable? ok. not sure about what you get at work. or what the apple machine is feeding you but ever since service pack 1 for windows 2000.( 3-4 years ago by the way ) it doesnt crash no more... you could literally go months between a single os crash. even if that.

easy to use... umm. you can drag...drop. in any system ive been on, linux. mac. windows. dont tell me mac does that easier than anyone else. does it use telepathy or something?

when was the last time you seriousely used a win machine?

at 3 times faster like you say...lower cost. + ease to use+ stability. i really dont know how you justify your reasons not to use a pc at all actually

by the way . as far as user friendlyness...if you knew anything about linux. the last thing you woudl say is user friendly.

configuring your own hardware, compiling apps ( which is very common on linux ) isnt exactly what i would call dummy proof/user friendly.
powerful. yes. but not as simplified. ( tho i liked its install more than for windows. )

[matty429]

If you can do anything a pc can do on a mac...

Then where's maya unlimted?

Why not just use both....

I have pc's.. But I want my next computer to be a mac...
So i can have both...I bet that works the best.....

[verti]

"Then where's maya unlimted?"

i was not talking about maya only... there are some other apps too...

not a single crash in a months on windows? hmm... ive not seen that... ever...

"you can drag...drop. in any system" drag and drop is not the only functionality i was talking about...

can u install windows in 7 minutes? with full setup? no? on mac u can... EASY

duhh... i should shut up... dont want to start next mac vs pc war... it's useless...

take care... maybe we should all get back to our 3... or even 4d worlds...

:wip:

[ambient-whisper]

i agree about not atarting a war.....but when i said about drag and drop ..i was thinking of some simple example where even a mac couldnt do it better than windows because its already been taken to its simplest form. i guess what i want to hear is what a mac does that makes it that much more simple. because from my experience i found macs not to be at all easier to use. its all the same shit but different name. i really want to know the things that make it soo much more simpler.

..installing an OS in 7 minutes...20 minutes..who gives a crap. its done like once a year. if every task that took on a mac was done 3 times faster then that would be something. but if its come to instaling an OS in less time then sure. i can install dos in about 2 seconds. whats your point? 2 different Packages with different Contents.

installing an OS speed varies a ton as well. it all depends if you have a fast or not hard disk...cdrom. and what you want to install into the base package.

if you choose to install every little thing off the cd then yes. itll take a while. and if youve never seen a win2k machine running for months at a time without crashing then youve been around the wrong machines. im guessing they are full of cheap parts from a dollar store or they are like 10 years old with 10 inches of dust or something :)

ofcourse if you compare the speed it takes to install a mac os ..on the fastest mac and a windows os on a pc with shitty parts then i completely agree itll take a long time.. :rolleyes:

( by the way my experience with macs has been rather poor. where i constantly had to restart because when i tried to scan it would freeze the machine.. updated drivers. same problem. definitely not as a perfect machine.

[DesignDawg]

Hey guys,

Not to be involved in a Mac vs. PC war or anything but I will say this:

I have never owned nor worked on a PC in the past 3 years or so that had a problem with crashing or general unstability. If you are using a moderately recent PC (500 MHz and up) and running AT LEAST Windows 2000 SP1, and you have crashes, or have EVER seen a BSOD.... Your computer hardware has serious problems. Honestly. I have quite literally only had Maya crash out ONCE (not including the SGI O2's I used to teach on) that I can remember since v. 3 (been using Maya since Beta 1), and it was actually very recently, in Windows XP. --And XP was kind enough to point out that the crash was due to my video card driver. What other OS explains what caused a crash? ("An error of type two occurred" doesn't exactly clear it all up for me....) I upgraded my video card driver, and once again, I'm back to NEVER shutting down, working in Maya, Combustion, AE, and Photoshop up to 16 hours a day....hot-swapping drives, networking source files, etc... and I get rock-stability day in and day out.

So, seriously, I urge you: If you are having crashing problems with your PC, get someone qualified to troubleshoot it for you.

Ricky

[matty429]

I don't understand why people have to choose sides..

Like those stupid apple commercials...."i switched"
Why not have both...If you can't afford both thats ok you don't have to justify what computer you bought to anyone....Just say yeah my next one is going to be a Mac..or if you already own a mac then you say pc...even if you don't mean it.

Then if everyone had both then we can run our tests to see how long it takes to install an operating system And what not

after all this is a maya forum and if i can turn on a computer
and run maya on it ...then its a pretty cool computer....

[graphiouz]

crashing a pc generaly depends on the user and hardware [as ambientW said], you need to nurse your system, never make 1000s of maps directly under c: use subdirectorys! get rid of all the un-useble icons on the systray and get rid of all your 100th of maps and icons on the desktop! use the explorer all the time!!

i have nine icons on my desktop! and i have max nine maps directly under c:, i have four systray icons, and all the computers that i have owned have been stable, atleast more stable then my friends,. and they are the oposit of me when handling a computer,

people that i know are complaining that the machine is slow and unstable, they dont know how to handle it!

i work on a mac in an all mac environment. and i seriously cant get the myth of the mac! and i cant get the saying that macs have a faster and easier UI!

And im not against mac! mac users are often more hatefull towards the pc, then pc against mac, i´ll guess they does that to keep thier pride or something??:rolleyes:
.

[bigfatMELon]

Originally posted by graphiouz
crashing a pc generaly depends on the user and hardware [as ambientW said], you need to nurse your system, never make 1000s of maps directly under c: use subdirectorys! get rid of all the un-useble icons on the systray and get rid of all your 100th of maps and icons on the desktop! use the explorer all the time!!

i have nine icons on my desktop! and i have max nine maps directly under c:, i have four systray icons, and all the computers that i have owned have been stable, atleast more stable then my friends,. and they are the oposit of me when handling a computer,

people that i know are complaining that the machine is slow and unstable, they dont know how to handle it!

i work on a mac in an all mac environment. and i seriously cant get the myth of the mac!

Perhaps this is because it's not a myth. A myth implies that there is some mysterious, long forgotten tale of something that may never have been. The truth of it the situation is found closer than you might think. In fact, it is found right inside in your very own post.

Mac users don't have to do any of the things that you mention. Why should there be a limit on directories, icons, etc...? Why should anyone HAVE to spend time maintaining that technical crap instead of just getting to the work as hand? Even as technically minded as I am (I'm a TD), I am still an artist and would prefer to spend my time making art.

Why must anyone be limited to the number of icons on thier desktop and why the hell should that number have any major effect on the stability of their machine? Personally, I've never noticed a PC going afoul due to desktop icons, but such myths (yes, that one is truly mythical) can only be born from the type of cryptic and touchy OS/Hardware relationship that exists on PCs.

It is this requirement you speak of, this necessity to grapple with the system management side, that Mac users detest. We choose simply not to put up with it and having the choice of the Mac means that we don't have to.

There is your "myth" of the Mac.

-jl

[meloncully]

anybody ever used freeBSD?


i have had my pc running win2k since win2k first came, and i have had maybe at max only 1-2 crashes TOTAL. i dont think stability is an issure here. well for me anyways.

this is not to diss mac or anything, but one day as i was cruising staples checking out how much red hat was, i saw an os9 box and checked out the price, and unless i was being decieved like a mofo, the price of os9 was 10 usd!!! i laughed.

[vangaans]

I currently run DinkelPok OS 5.03 on my Double Bam Manangafier, fitted with triple Blimple Floots

It is a magnificent OS and system, you should all think about switching over.

Bottom line is: If you are happy with what you are using, what does it matter what anybody else is using?

[beaker]

>>so what is a|w going to do? there are some 3d apps that take full advantage of MP... and their tools are getting better and better with every release. that's really strange to me. i thought that a|w was going to release 4.5 with full MP support. now you killed me... ill have to wait with my order till i see the app working on mp 1ghz g4. maybe i should look into buying a pc and XSI?

There aren't any 3d apps out there that are fully MP aware. Softimage was spouting this about XSI back a few years before it came out in 98-99, but it never came true. There are just too many things in 3d that cannot be multithreaded. Anything that uses dynamics, cloth, fur, deformation, and anything else that uses history cannot really be threaded. Too many operations rely on what happends the frame before in order for it to figure out what happends next. This makes it very hard for all your operations to use more than one processor.

For example, one processor is chugging away at what frame 1 of a cloth being dropped onto a table looks like. Well you can't give frame 2 to processor #2 because you need to know what frame 1 looks like before you can go any farther. This is the same of when you are setting up a character with a bunch of bones and deformers to do muscles. You start at the root of the skeleton and work your way out. You cannot just skip automatically to the wrist or the fingers and give that to a second processor because it needs to know what happends to the parents first.

P.S.: Also you guys forgot to add that the paint moduals in maya are also MP aware(2d/3d paintfx and artisan based tools).

[graphiouz]

bigfatMELon

ok i got the feeling/saying that mac never ever crashes,
[i was proved wrong] therefor the ''myth of macs''! forget that,
i like macs, but i would never buy one, atleast not now!

Macs should definitely have more stable programs because of the tight intergration between the developers and apple, but i dont know anything about that,

And the thing about taking care of your files and system,. do you check the oil on your car?

i never said anything about a limit of icons e,t,c that you have to follow in order to have a functional system, its my way of seeing and doing things witch i believes is the best,

:beer:

[bigfatMELon]

Macs should definitely have more stable programs because of the tight intergration between the developers and apple, but i dont know anything about that,


Not necessarily. The tight integration is between the OS and hardware. Developers are still free to make just as big of a mess of their software on the Mac as they do on the PC. Or make them every bit as good.

But consider, for example, how much discussion happens on the subject of video drivers in the PC world alone. For OSX users, Apple provides (and occasionally, ATI comes a long and screws that up). There just isn't nearly as much to manage with respect to drivers with OSX and that's a good example of the kind of thing Mac users gravitate towards.

And the thing about taking care of your files and system,. do you check the oil on your car?

Honestly, no. I don't. Once again, I know enough about how my car works that I could do it myself, but I hate having to spend the time doing it. So, I pay JiffyLube to do it for me while I write MEL scripts in the lobby on my TiBook. :)

-jl

[verti]

how long are you a maya user?

[matty2x4]

ooops.
I seem to have started a mini war... should have known.
OK here is another way of asking:
If I was to learn maya what would you lot recomend as a good minimum size of computer mac AND pc? Ram, processor, OS (where relevant), graphics cards (where relevant) etc... and if its not m/p aware does that mean it would be worth getting a 1000mhz than a dual 750mhz???:shrug:
thanks 2x4:wavey:
Im kind of looking for a list of good points... not a put down match.

[feefunk]

I personnally think that you should not get a Multi-Processor machine if you only want to learn Maya and put together a demo reel while not spending too much money. You can always wait a bit more for your renders to get done, right?
BTW, what will be your focus? Animation, Modeling, Texturing, FX, you get my drift?


Of course, maybe the cheapest way would be to build a Frankenbox with Linux, but if you're not too technically inclined or don't have IT geek friends, it might turn into a bit of a nightmare for configuration.


Macs will always cost more than a custom built no name PC, so if you like them more you'll just have to deal with that fact. Macs have nicer components, design and integration but up until now they have been plagued by slow RAM and slow 3d Videocards. It seems that slowly things are changing.


Anyhow, I hope someone has the opportunity to post their "requirements" for a 3d starter system.


:)

[matty2x4]

thanks feefunk
I want to do a bit of everything Animation, Modeling, Texturing, FX... the lot
and even on to compiling it editing... after effects. I am far to curious to limit myself to one aspect...

[matty429]

Get a Dell "Dude"

You can get a Dual Xeon Dell for the price of a modest Mac

[verti]

hmm... interesting discussion :)

i got one more question for all of you, mac maya users...

what about mouse buttons combos?

as mac users we got only one button mouse...

should i buy one from kensington or macally (with 3 or more buttons?)

take care,
verti.

[beaker]

Yea, definatly go out and buy yourself a 3 button mouse. OSX works with 2 and 3 button mice by default. Not sure why apple doesnt give people the option of getting a multi-button one. Any Logitech or M$ mouse works fine(cheap usb pc ones work fine, you don't have to go out and buy one made specially for a mac since m$ and logitech have drivers for all their mice to run on mac on their web site). I prefer the logitech ones without the scroller for 3d applications.

[MacRonin]

Get the Perfit Mouse from Contour Design:

http://www.contourdesign.com/perfit.htm

This was the mouse originally bundled with the first release of Maya for Mac OS X…

Most folks say it is bulky, more so than they would like. But most of the folks who say this are ones who have not used it. It IS large (and comes in five different sizes for righties, and three for lefties), but it is designed to fill the hand, fully supporting it at all times.

It is USB, and they might still have the special silver Millennium edition (which matches with the ‘old’ QuickSilver Macs, and the new SpeedHoles Macs).

And, above all, stick with the Mac!!!

Oh yeah, as for the person asking Julian (BigFatMELon) how long he has been using Maya… Long enough to know what he is talking about, and worth listening to when he does…

He ain’t kidding about the MEL scripts, Julian is the MEL Master!

Even if his ‘Sawtooth’ avatar looks a bit cheesy! ;^p

[verti]

thx for reply!

bigfatMELon: have you wrote any coffee scripts? :)

MacRonin: i know that bigfatMELon really knows MEL... i was just wondering for how long he is using Maya. btw. do you use the Perfit Mouse? i work around 15h a day... sometimes much longer, and im worried about my wrists...

thanks again,
verti.

[MacRonin]

Yes, it forces you to use your arm muscles to move the mouse, rather than the weaker muscles around the wrist...

And a Wacom keeps you from excessive mousing also...

[ambient-whisper]

i dunno. i had a mouse that looks exactly like that one that came with my cordless keyboard, and i replaced that mouse VERY quickly.

[verti]

ive heard many very good opinions about using microsofts (blahhh ;) ) intelimouse under os x... maybe i should look into this one...
verti.

[meloncully]

ack!! that mouse looks horrible. i would get an intellimouse. or they have a mouse out that you put a dot on your head and you can look at stuff and it'll move the pointer to it.

[bigfatMELon]

Originally posted by verti
thx for reply!

bigfatMELon: have you wrote any coffee scripts? :)

MacRonin: i know that bigfatMELon really knows MEL... i was just wondering for how long he is using Maya. btw. do you use the Perfit Mouse? i work around 15h a day... sometimes much longer, and im worried about my wrists...

thanks again,
verti.

No coffee scripts for me. The language looks interesting enough, but I prefer the immediacy of MEL. You only have to look just slightly under Maya's rug and... oh crap, look at all the procedural goodies running around under there! That and Maya is what we use at work.

I got started with Maya when the first NT version shipped, but didn't do much with it (my avatar is the result of my early Maya experiments) until 2.5 shipped and I convinced the numbnuts management staff at Sierra to buy a few copies. I've been a full time Maya jockey ever since.

-jl

[greekdish]

Hmm, is it just me, or am I the only Mac Maya person preferring a single button mouse setup to 3 button?? I run Maya on a TiBook, and although I have a 3 buttonmouse (2 plus scroll), I still only use the leftmouse button. I've been using keyboard shortcuts all my life with Photoshop, Illustrator and Quark, and then in 3D with Lightwave. I find, especially after going from LW to Maya on the Mac, I love using the command, option and control keys instead. Just seems more natural. I learned Maya on SGI's, and I always thought it was very clunky, as I always used my left hand . I really hate using the left mouse button+Scroll button. :shrug:

To each his own, right?? :beer:

[DesignDawg]

How can you use just the left button in Maya?

How do you control the camera? Sure, you can tumble with the left button, but what about tracking and zooming? You say you use the keyboard, but you have to use the keyboard anyway, in conjuntion with the mouse buttons.

So, do you have these mouse buttons mapped to other keys? If so, what do you do when you want to absolutely select or deselect something (in other words, not using the shift key, which only selects or deselects based on the CURRENT state of something)...

Interesting.

Ricky
DesignDawg

[greekdish]

The controls work similar to the way in Lightwave. You hold down the Option+LMB, Command+Option+LMB, or Option+Command+LMB to control your camera. Alias explains how to use it in the Release Notes in the help file. Its merely adding a one line of text to your .env file in the preferences.

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