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Larry_g1s
10-14-2004, 01:26 AM
Just outta curiosity, anyone know of NewTek making a Linux based LW?
I'm just getting pretty tired of Microsoft's Windows and I've heard that Linux is much more stable. But sense non of the main apps I use don't run on Linux, I can't make the switch. So I was just curious. :shrug:

orion 77
10-14-2004, 01:44 AM
doubt it since there are about 50 different versions so to speak and many are configured in various ways it would be a pain to develop and provide maintenance for customers.
plus linux can be very tricky to setup.
osx is a superior option.

Rabid pitbull
10-14-2004, 03:08 AM
Except osx performs poorly on most 3d apps.

Vertizor
10-14-2004, 06:12 PM
Newtek does distribute a screamernet client for Linux, that's the extent of it right now. The 2 companies I can think of that have a Linux version is Alias and SoftImage. They pick RedHat as the official supported Linux distribution. But others in the Linux community have found ways to get them to install in other distros.

The whole "Linux is more stable than Windows" thing should be taken with a grain of salt. Linux may be more stable, but if you don't know what you're doing you can easily break it, interrupting your work. And once it's broken, you really have to know what you're doing to fix it. I found it easier for me to just be more militant when I'm using Windows and for the last 3 years I haven't had spyware, viri, or any problems. Knowledge is power, switching is a crutch.

orion 77
10-14-2004, 06:44 PM
really? i would have assumed osx would do well with 3d apps.
looks like its windows for the time being.

Rabid pitbull
10-14-2004, 07:03 PM
Well macs are usually somewhat neglected in the 3d arena. Most apps that are built for macs and windows typically the intel machines will run better. Also of importance is the actual stability, many are not as reliable on the mac in one area or another. Then finally the lack of third party plugins is very bad for most packages.

I say this having once been a mac user, I think the exception to this rule is cinema 4d which seems to operate equally on either platform.

And to stay on topic I doubt that newtek is going to release a linux version. Unless something drastically changes making it a bigger market with one version dominating the user base within.

coremi
10-14-2004, 07:43 PM
I don't think Linux is an OS for graphics work. Linux GUI is not integrated into the Kernel so using the interface will slow it down a lot. Linux power is network and server (web server, Mail server...) using the comand line. Linux was not intended to be multimedia, it has other pouposes. I don't know about mac but winxp is very good, very reliable, and very stable. If u have problems u should check your hardware first. I'm doing computer service and i'm also selling computers and i know what i'm talking about.

If u ever want to experience a computer without a crash, buy an Intel mainboard, maybe not so performant, but rock stable. U can crash lightwave, games, whatever, WinXp will still be there, no need for restart.
Don't get excited about NForce, real pain in the ***

MattClary
10-14-2004, 07:54 PM
If u ever want to experience a computer without a crash, buy an Intel mainboard, maybe not so performant, but rock stable.
Yep, I second this. I came to this conclusion after seeing all the abuse Intel boards have taken at my office and have kept on ticking. We have a bunch of old Pentium Pro boards here that continuously get recycled.

I bought a PIV 3.0 with a Intel D875PBZ board and it is stable as hell.

Vertizor
10-14-2004, 08:59 PM
I don't think Linux is an OS for graphics work. Linux GUI is not integrated into the Kernel so using the interface will slow it down a lot.
TRUST ME. You do not want graphics handled by the kernel. Why do you think there were so many Blue Screen Of Death in earlier versions of Windows? Because device drivers were running in kernel space. So if the user installed a poorly written driver, or if there were conflicting drivers, your whole system goes down.

X windows runs in its own process, if there's a problem, it shuts down but you can still bring it up and fix it without having to reboot. And the slow down is not really noticable, furthermore with certain Linux kernels IPC is very low latency. Coupled with kernel pre-emption and you have quite a fast desktop. I'll admit my Linux desktop (KDE) isn't as zippy as Windows XP, but XP will sometimes flat out stall for a few seconds. At least in Linux that rarely ever happens.

AthlonJedi
10-15-2004, 05:43 AM
dude, to say an intel cpu is the better thing to run lightwave on is like saying putting diesel in a gas engine will make it run better.

case in point, an AMD athlon xp 2100+ (1733 ghz) will make mince meat of an intel pentium 4 that runs at 2.4ghz any day,

when looking at a cpu, look at the architecture and how it works before going the way of the rest of the sheeple.

AMD cpus acculy have more r.i.s.c. (reduced instruction set computation, the stuff mac and the famous DEC Alpha are made of) than an intel as well as shorter cache pathways more of this less of that etc...the list goes on. not to mention AMD cpus are cheaper, more stable and acculy designed to be used for 3d and multimedia creation, and the Athlon 64 kicks the snot out of the itainium(intel 64 bit) and the Athlon 64 is a consumer product where itainium is enterprize level and Athlon 64 will work with 32 bit apps as well as 64 where intels wont.

and dont even get me started on the optiron and semptron.

tell ya what, build a 2 way(2 cpu) optiron and a 2 way itainium and put them head to head rendering and see what happens, if you can keep the itainium from crashing that is.

and by the way lightwave will run under wine or winex in linux, its all about what you know and the skill at which it is executed in linux, but dont expect to get it working the very first try if you are new to *nix. while it is not impossable, its not as easy as it sounds lol.

as for linux, the standard unpatched or modified kernel is the same distro wide, which is the core of any os thus really the only thing that matters, the reason for windows and mac and a few other versions of lw is the user base, not the os itself, microshaft has a much larger user base thus recieves much more support from big vendors like newtek, its just smart buisness is what it boils down to lol.

sorry about the crash course in computers but i am an IT pro as well as a spare time lightwaver lol.

check out media linux, its based on slackware 9 and designed for production level 3d and multimedia. it can be found on sourceforge.net and if i am not mistaken the wings 3d package is part of it which exports to .obj which if you have setup linux so it reads and writes to ntfs ( yes, you have to enable it in the kernel) you can save your work to your windows drive then run lw under winblows for tweaking if need be.

Vertizor
10-15-2004, 06:15 AM
AMD cpus acculy have more r.i.s.c. (reduced instruction set computation, the stuff mac and the famous DEC Alpha are made of) than an intel as well as shorter cache pathways more of this less of that etc...the list goes on. not to mention AMD cpus are cheaper, more stable and acculy designed to be used for 3d and multimedia creation, and the Athlon 64 kicks the snot out of the itainium(intel 64 bit) and the Athlon 64 is a consumer product where itainium is enterprize level and Athlon 64 will work with 32 bit apps as well as 64 where intels wont.
I can appreciate the fact that you're providing technical data to back your point, but your execution would use some polishing, otherwise as your post stands, you just sound like a fanboy, which is ok. I like AMD too :)

Macs (PowerPC) aren't 100% RISC, they're a hybrid. And it is to "be" more RISC, not to have. Both AMD and Intel chips are also hybrid CISC/RISC chips. Why do you think their pipelines are so long? They take in x86 instructions and convert them into RISC instructions. This is not emulation, it's code morphing like what the Transmeta chips are doing. And it happens at a very low level unknown to the host system and software developers (I use the word unknown to mean programmers don't have to worry about it, not that it's a big secret).

BTW, AMD chips have almost as long pipelines as Intel chips, that argument is moot. Even the newer G4 Macs were up to 14 stage pipelines. You can thank the Alpha engineers for the memory bus and chipset designs, maybe even the FPU. Speaking of the FPU, Athlons get their FPU instructions from L1 cache whereas the P4 gets them from L2 cache - I think that's what you meant by "paths to cache."

tell ya what, build a 2 way(2 cpu) optiron and a 2 way itainium and put them head to head rendering and see what happens, if you can keep the itainium from crashing that is
Pfffft!!! What the hell are we going to use to benchmark and compare the 2? There aren't even any software for Itanium. :D

P.S.
Athlon XP and Pentium 4 were the only CPI names you correctly spelled in your post. For an AMD fanboy, you sure did forget how to spell Opteron and Sempron. :p Ok, calm down, I'm just teasing.

Vertizor
10-15-2004, 06:22 AM
as for linux, the standard unpatched or modified kernel is the same distro wide, which is the core of any os thus really the only thing that matters, the reason for windows and mac and a few other versions of lw is the user base, not the os itself, microshaft has a much larger user base thus recieves much more support from big vendors like newtek, its just smart buisness is what it boils down to lol.
Actually it has nothing to do with the kernel. Look at the directory structure of RedHat distros. Now look at the directory structure of Mandrake (a RH derived distro) and SuSE. They're different. Sure there are environment variables to help cope with these differences in paths, but keep your eyes opened and you'll hear enough people having issues with these differences. That's why I said Maya and XSI selected RH as the only supported distro. For other distros you're on your own.

I'd rather see NewTek make their product better on the platforms it's already running on, then to make people happy by porting it to Linux. We already have LWSN.exe and unlimited render nodes, I can live with that.

coremi
10-15-2004, 08:18 AM
well, i'm not an linux expert, but a good friend is more than an expert, he is part of the development of linux for like 8 years. I asked if linux is better for 3d, 2d, and multimedia, than windows, he said NO. He is a hardcore fan of Linux.
Because the GUI is not integrated into the kernel it makes so slow. Maybe u have 2 Gb of RAM and dual PIV xeon not to feel it, but on a middle price computer u can see how slow the interface is.
Yeasterday we installed WINXP SP2 on Celeron 400 MHz with 128 RAM, the films with XVID work perfect.

About AMD and INTEL, i sell most of the computers based on AMD platform because here people are poor and cannot afford 150 USD diference between Intel and AMD computers. Well from my experince AMD based computers sucks, 75% are coming back for service even i'm using only very good mainboards, ASUS, ABIT etc...
INTEL CPU with Intel mainboards never cameback for service, for like 2 years now.
Amd cpu give 99% of power in the first apllication u run, but if u start like 5 aplication same time it has no power, that's why everyone knows is good for games. Nobody plays a game with Photoshop, layout, modeler, corel, winamp also open...
for me it doesn't matter wich is better, i'm selling both, but it really matters wich is more stable, and intel platform is really stable compared to AMD platform. It is not AMD fault, is NVIDIA adn VIA's fault for bad Mainboard chipsets.

MattClary
10-15-2004, 12:41 PM
dude, to say an intel cpu is the better thing to run lightwave on is like saying putting diesel in a gas engine will make it run better.

case in point, an AMD athlon xp 2100+ (1733 ghz) will make mince meat of an intel pentium 4 that runs at 2.4ghz any day,It sounds to me like you've never used LightWave. SSEII instructions available on the PIV greatly speed rendering. The SSEII instructions are now available on the 64bit AMD chips, but when I built my machine, those chips were still rare and expensive. The non-SSEII AMD chips are slower than PIVs at rendering in LightWave. Other than that, yeah, I prefer AMD too.

http://www.blanos.com (http://www.blanos.com/)

gawain
10-15-2004, 02:23 PM
maybe it is a little bit OT, but someone really knows for sure that mac are so bad with 3d apps (lw and Maya expecially)?
Can someone give me some benchmark/example? I'm doing some 3d animation + editing + compositing and I do agree that my old mac (g4/450) is better with the last two taks. But what about the new G5?

G.

MattClary
10-15-2004, 03:12 PM
Benchmarks

http://www.blanos.com (http://www.blanos.com/)

gawain
10-15-2004, 03:53 PM
Thanx! Performances seem quite similar between a high end Mac solution and an high end PC solution. Any speculation seems again a matter of perception or preferences on user experience.
Things like plug-ins or other killer applications are fo course important

G.

MattClary
10-15-2004, 04:37 PM
Don't forget cost/performance ratio.

gawain
10-15-2004, 04:51 PM
Yep! I love mac but you pay every piece of design they put on it, not only the horse power!

Anyway, final cut is a killer app to me =)

G.

Vertizor
10-15-2004, 05:29 PM
Go to NewTek's website and into the Community forums. I did some research and found a lot of complaints that LW Mac version in certain cases behave differently than the Windows version. Various 3D apps (LW, Maya, Modo) suffer from OpenGL issues that are mostly driver related.

gawain
10-18-2004, 11:01 AM
yeah. I've checked too. There are some problems, but the most annoing ones seem related to openGL issues: polys and points that don't show and so on. On the other hand seems that the perspective view is more fluid than under 7.5.
G.

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