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wash
10-13-2004, 04:48 AM
Ashcroft declares "most aggressive assault" on piracy in US history

At a press conference in Los Angeles today, Attorney General John Ashcroft announced an expansion of Department of Justice powers to combat intellectual property theft. Some say the approach appears to be modeled after the war on drugs.The U.S. Justice Department recommended a sweeping transformation of the nation's intellectual property laws, saying peer-to-peer piracy is a "widespread" problem that can be addressed only through more spending, more FBI agents and more power for prosecutors. In an extensive report released Tuesday, senior department officials endorsed a pair of controversial copyright bills strongly favored by the entertainment industry that would criminalize "passive sharing" on file-swapping networks and permit lawsuits against companies that sell products that "induce" copyright infringement.

Link (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-5406654.html) to Declan's News.com story, Link (http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/October/04_ag_693.htm) to DoJ press release, Link (http://www.cybercrime.gov/IPTaskForceReport.pdf) to the lengthy report issued today by the DoJ's Task Force on Intellectual Property (PDF). More coverage at the LA Times (reg req): Link 1 (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-piracy12oct12,1,7796459.story?coll=la-home-business), Link 2 (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-piracy-crackdown,1,3825717,print.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines)

via boingboing.net

Signal2Noise
10-13-2004, 05:01 AM
...Some say the approach appears to be modeled after the war on drugs...
Ah yes. We all know how well TWOD is progressing. If this is the case I guess we can still look forward to many more years of downloading. :rolleyes:

Ollarin
10-13-2004, 05:04 AM
Damn. That means i can't download stuff anymore! (Just kidding!:p)

kraal
10-13-2004, 05:19 AM
the war on drugs was a hidden class war ...... i don't think piracy can be pinned to a certain type.....

wash
10-13-2004, 06:22 AM
the war on drugs analogy was made by Phil Corwin, lobbyist for Sharman Networks (http://dw.com.com/redir?destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sharmannetworks.com&siteId=22&oId=2100-9588-5406654&ontId=9588&lop=nl_ex), distributor of Kazaa. so take this comparison with a grain of salt.

DangerAhead
10-13-2004, 07:42 AM
Soon we won't be able to share "text files" with anyone on the net until it's been approved by the government.

(...)
10-13-2004, 08:06 AM
In an extensive report released Tuesday, senior department officials endorsed a pair of controversial copyright bills strongly favored by the entertainment industry that would criminalize "passive sharing" on file-swapping networks and permit lawsuits against companies that sell products that "induce" copyright infringement.So they're going after the P2P networks again? It'll never stand up in court.

Oh well, when all the P2P networks shut down, everybody moves to IRC. :D

slaughters
10-13-2004, 11:25 AM
Well,

#1 - Downloading music with out paying for it really is illeagle guys. It's stealing from the artist who made it, regardless of how much you wanted to listen to it or what kind of sophisticated justifications you make to yourself about it.

#2 - The FBI "endorsing" a bill is a looooonnngg way from a bill being passed into a law by the Senate and Congress. Without seeing this specific bill I tend to beleive that it will have to be worded broadly in order to stop music and film downloads. This wording will either leave enough legal loop holes to make it totally ineffective, or will be so all encompasing that private interests in the Senate or House will squash the bill.

#3 - It will be real hard for the USA to enforce laws on sites hosted in the Camen islands, Iceland, Russia, etc.. So in the end the bill, if enacted, will be useless.

lougandidas
10-13-2004, 01:03 PM
Well,

#1 - Downloading music with out paying for it really is illeagle guys. It's stealing from the artist who made it, regardless of how much you wanted to listen to it or what kind of sophisticated justifications you make to yourself about it.

Actually, it isn't in Canada. People are pretaxed on cds, cd burners, dvds and a lot of other stuff. People in Canada can download until the cows come home and they can't be touched.

kraal
10-13-2004, 02:40 PM
just to add since I know lots of musical artist .... it is stealing from the record company not the artist really.... there is hardly any money from the cds that goes to the artist now a days.... must artist i know make thier money from live shows and merch .....

not to justify stealing cause record sales do help the artist even if it is just all about the numbers not profit

mummey
10-13-2004, 02:54 PM
Actually, it isn't in Canada. People are pretaxed on cds, cd burners, dvds and a lot of other stuff. People in Canada can download until the cows come home and they can't be touched.
but if they share they still can be prosecuted... :p

slaughters
10-13-2004, 03:39 PM
Actually, it isn't in Canada. People are pretaxed on cds, cd burners, dvds and a lot of other stuff. People in Canada can download until the cows come home and they can't be touched.I find it *real* hard to beleive that paying tax for an item, but not paying for the item itself, is legal.

This does nothing to pay an artist for the work he has done. This is just a rationalization.

..there is hardly any money from the cds that goes to the artist now a days...Yes, but let's see how much you friends scream if that "hardly any money" disapears. :) On the other hand, if they don't care that much, please contact me offline so I can have you pass on my PayPal information to your friends. They can deposit however much they don't want directly into my account :)

oshiroii
10-13-2004, 03:40 PM
Arn't they going after the "big guys". The people who actaully download cd's/games/software/dvd's burn them and then sell them cheaper? The real dealers? I can't imagine the FBI chasing some regular dude just because he downloads a few mp3's now and then. Almost everybody does that and most people just do it to check out whether it's worth buying. If they don't like it they obviously throw it away and if they do like it, they'll buy the cd. OF course this doesn't count for games and dvd's, but it could count for software in some ways. The big dealers are the problems, and are the reason for most of the loss in money. At least they are for games, software and dvd's, music might be everybodies fault :hmm:

*please note that I don't want to make it sound like it's ok, just giving my thoughts*

StephanD
10-13-2004, 03:43 PM
It's rationalization based on one judge's opinion/ruling.

http://netforbeginners.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=netforbeginners&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.web-user.co.uk%2Fnews%2F48323.html

slaughters
10-13-2004, 03:52 PM
It's rationalization based on one judge's opinion/ruling.

http://netforbeginners.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=netforbeginners&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.web-user.co.uk%2Fnews%2F48323.html The judge in question is the exception not the rule and his decsion will be easily overturned (if not done so all ready). More interesting is the quote I found in a related artcle:

"I find it extraordinary, given the fact that 60% of musicians in the UK earn less than £10,000 per year and 94% of songwriters, composers receive less than £10,000 per year in royalty payments that we are prepared to ask musicians and songwriters, to turn up to work everyday and not get paid for it. "

>>>> LINK <<<< (http://www.bpi.co.uk/news/bizinfo/news_content_file_846.shtml)

SheepFactory
10-13-2004, 04:14 PM
I never heard of a record shop go out of business due to mp3 downloading to be honest. They can pass any law they want , in the end it wont change a thing.

Instead of losing money and face , they should just figure out a way to profit from all this.

TheWraith
10-13-2004, 04:40 PM
On the radio this morning I heard that WalMart is lowering the prices on their cd's to $10, and the radio guys broke it down and said walmart is losing money on each CD sold, but they're doing it because they believe customers who go there and buy the CD's will buy other things and they'll make profit from those sales. Anyways, they broke down the cost on a CD and they had said that the artists get around $1.60 per CD sold and the production companies get $1.70 because they have to front a lot of the money in the beginning. Just something I thought some of you might be interested in knowing. I'm sure the $$$ amounts vary also.

I think the only way to get the casual/normal person to stop downloading is by just scaring them into not breaking the law. You don't rob banks because you know you'll go to jail and it just isn't worth it. If you had a similar mentality with downloading mp3's, it would reduce the amount of downloads I think.

CelticArtist
10-13-2004, 04:46 PM
Personally, i don't bother downloading stuff anymore, never downloaded movies or software, only music, and most of that when Napster was still around (the real Napster, not the new one). Kazaa is a pain in the arse, so i don't bother with it, and i haven't found any others that work decently. I know that i will buy a cd of an artist if i get a few mp3's of them and like what they do, unfortunately, most of the bands out there suck and i'd rather test the waters than commit my money to them. Also, I know personally, most of the tracks i downloaded were live tracks or "rare" tracks (unreleased studio tracks for example), which don't cost the artist or the label a dime because they were never released as such, if i want the top 20 hits on the radio, i'll listen to the friggin radio. I think Apple and the other services have a good idea with the buy per song download, but it's a ripoff right now, you pay essentially full price for a crappy copy of a song that you don't technically own even after you've bought it, what's the point? if i'm going to pay full price for a track, i want the option to download it uncompressed and to Any device i want to put it on, it's mine at that point, i am not renting the song, i don't rent a cd when i go to best buy and buy it, i own that copy of it, so we still have a long way to go before there is a valid solution to this issue, but i know no one has it right, and theoretical, unenforcable legislation is not the way to handle piracy.

richcz3
10-13-2004, 06:10 PM
The level of government bureaucracy stifles any notion of a quick response. The call to need to spend more money is a key problem that fuels inept concepts at the starting gate at the federal level. Not unlike the war on drugs. Anyone want to buy a $700 hammer?
The scary part is getting through 4-5 levels of management types to get to someone who actually knows something. Note the recent departure of the Cyber Security chief out of sheer frustration. :sad:

If anyone has seen the news over the past 8 months they will have seen that the various branches of local and federal investigation are rife with communication and resource sharing problems. Money can't fix people who are dead set in departmental and bureaucratic ways. "Yes, we need more funding to build an even bigger less responsive machine that is less inclined to work or be compatable with the existing machine. :scream:


richcz3

kiaran
10-13-2004, 06:56 PM
The newest file sharing methods don't have anything that can be shut down. How can they stop something that is COMPLETELY DECENTRALIZED like BitTorrent.

This fight is 1000X more difficult than the war on drugs.

NanoGator
10-13-2004, 06:58 PM
I never heard of a record shop go out of business due to mp3 downloading to be honest. They can pass any law they want , in the end it wont change a thing.

Instead of losing money and face , they should just figure out a way to profit from all this.

Bingo. It's a little thing called supply and demand.

A couple of things bug me about the whole 'piracy' issue:

1.) How many of those downloads are a.) An attempt to find more music to enjoy and b.) of stuff the downloader already has?

2.) How many are actually kept and enjoyed?

To be perfectly honest, I think the music industry should have expected this. They sell albums instead of individual songs, and they don't have a satisfaction guaranteed policy. How many have purchased CDs with only one good song on them? grr.

Music downloading, though questionably ethical, is an expression of demand. Fill that demand, make money. Send your customers to jail, face boycott. At least iTunes is a step in the right direction, thankfully it's quite sucessful.

Fahad
10-13-2004, 07:51 PM
I highly doubt that music sharing can be stopped, i wonder if the industry will suffer so much out of this that it'll dissolve and leave music to real artists. :shrug:

DannyDreams
10-13-2004, 08:09 PM
On the radio this morning I heard that WalMart is lowering the prices on their cd's to $10,.
They should be 10 bucks anyways. Artist, Record label and such will still make a profit. Its assholes like Virgin Megastore and FYE that are the evil ones here. Not me downloading "Were Not Gonna Take It" by Twisted Sister for my 80's party. ERRRRRrrrrr corperates and top 40 music crap get me sooo angry.

Array
10-13-2004, 09:21 PM
If this is going to be like the war on drugs, does that mean that kids will be spending 15+ years in jail for downloading MP3's?

Ondrayce
10-13-2004, 10:23 PM
If this is going to be like the war on drugs, does that mean that kids will be spending 15+ years in jail for downloading MP3's? Then the iTunes and AOL music stores are like prescription drug companies. You get the same product, just in a different wrapper, and the product makers can continue getting paid.

sumpm1
10-14-2004, 12:30 AM
We have been through this so many times, it really pisses me off. Cause some big bussinesses think that this is harming their cashflow, and they are WRONG.

The people that are downloading rater than buying, would not be buying anyways.

Just cause people will take something when it is free or next to free, doesn't mean that they WOULD or WILL buy these things. Say software.

Just cause some kid is using a cracked version of XSI doesn't mean that if he couldn't download it, that he would pay thousands for it, that is an unreasonable assumption.

And please stop comparing DRUG USE to LISTENING TO MUSIC!

Signal2Noise
10-14-2004, 02:38 AM
On the radio this morning I heard that WalMart is lowering the prices on their cd's to $10...No no no. It's the 8-tracks they're reducing in price. Huge news for trailer parks everywhere! ;)

Lyr
10-14-2004, 03:18 AM
Just cause some kid is using a cracked version of XSI doesn't mean that if he couldn't download it, that he would pay thousands for it, that is an unreasonable assumption.


It's not Softimage that is losing money. it's the companies that produce similar, competing, products at a lower price point that lose out. Why buy something like Lightwave when you can pirate Maya Unlimited or XSI Advanced?

tevih
10-14-2004, 03:35 AM
just to add since I know lots of musical artist .... it is stealing from the record company not the artist really.... there is hardly any money from the cds that goes to the artist now a days.... must artist i know make thier money from live shows and merch .....

This is true. Records are basically ads for the artist to get them known so their concerts will sell out. They get (essentially) bupkus from CD sales. I have friends who are recording artists that don't mind piracy of their work at all, because it markets them further... But its still stealing, so don't do it. :)

sundialsvc4
10-14-2004, 03:52 AM
Throughout all of this, I believe that the music industry has consistently missed the point: the technology of music-consumption has changed. Nothing is going to change it back to a world of physical CDs and physical record-stores and "the only way to produce new music is to use our studios and to charge the 'costs' against your royalties." Humpty-Dumpty has fallen off the wall, and no one's the slightest bit interested in patching him up again. (In fact, it's time for a nice omelette.)

Major stars are producing albums by singing in their bathtubs, uploading the digital recordings from their PCs to the PC of the guy who does the mixdown (in ProTools), and winding up with a finished song [file] that may or may not ever be published on a compact disc. The cost of distribution is a fraction of what record-labels charge. The traditional labels, in fact, are being completely frozen out.

The labels are putting their big-guns to proclaim that all of this is "illegitimate" ... but let the record show that those same labels at one time vociferously opposed:
Playing songs on the radio. Allowing radios to be installed in automobiles. The cassette tape. The DAT tape. (Successfully...) The iPod.
For way too many years, artists found themselves literally in debt to their record-labels, for "costs" that were arbitrarily imposed by them. They received royalty reports knowing that the figures were seriously under-stated. They endured an attempt by ClearChannel to obtain a ruling that "if all programming originates from a central studio in Kansas City and is played over 100 stations from that studio, it is only 'being played' once." In other words, a lot of people got screwed for a long, long time.

The Internet connects the producer, instantly and accountably, to the consumer; giving the consumer more choice than ever before. If Napster proved anything, it proved that the total demand for music is vastly larger than the labels have ever been able to supply. Apple proved beyond doubt that consumers will "pay for it." But, in this brave new world there is no place for "record labels." The Internet promises to deal them the fate of the dodo-bird... and very swiftly.

NanoGator
10-14-2004, 03:55 AM
It's not Softimage that is losing money. it's the companies that produce similar, competing, products at a lower price point that lose out. Why buy something like Lightwave when you can pirate Maya Unlimited or XSI Advanced?

Why pirate Maya Unlimited when you can get Lightwave, a complete and well respected package, for cheaper?

sundialsvc4
10-14-2004, 03:55 AM
I have friends who are recording artists that don't mind piracy of their work at all, because it markets them further... But its still stealing, so don't do it. :) The Grateful Dead were masters of this. Not only did they encourage the taping of their concerts, they reserved an area in the front of the concert area expressly for tapers. Discussions about the best use of DAT tape-equipment, the proper microphones to use, and so-on were often participated in by recording engineers who had worked on the band's album projects. All of this with the full knowledge, and the official blessing, of the band.

sundialsvc4
10-14-2004, 03:59 AM
Why pirate Maya Unlimited when you can get Lightwave, a complete and well respected package, for cheaper?
No one who is professionally in the business of producing animations will ever use "pirated" copies nor permit such copies to be anywhere in or near the shop.

Granted, a commercial software package might cost several thousand dollars per-seat, but in a major motion-picture project costing many millions, that is only one of many expenses. By the time the project has progressed a single month, the animator who sits at that workstation will have cost the company that much or more. It is the effort of that animator which the company wishes to use efficiently.

wash
10-14-2004, 06:02 AM
If you don't have the desire to read the 96 page report :


As most of you are no doubt aware, the Department of Justice yesterday issued a lengthy report (http://www.cybercrime.gov/IPTaskForceReport.pdf) (PDF) outlining its plans for taking the war against intellectual property "theft" to the next level. So what is John Ashcroft's answer to our copyright infringement problems? As Declan McCullagh writes (http://news.com.com/Justice+Dept.+wants+new+antipiracy+powers/2100-1028_3-5406654.html?tag=nefd.top), "more spending, more FBI agents and more power for prosecutors." Meaning, of course, H.R. 4077/PDEA (http://www.publicknowledge.org/take-action/s4077), which among other things threatens to make automatically skipping commercials illegal (http://scrawford.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2004/10/8/157014.html), and the widely reviled Induce Act (http://action.eff.org/siteapps/advocacy/index.aspx?c=esJNJ5OWF&b=124605&ievent=59502&action=1197&template=x%2Eascx), which would put technological innovation into a deep chill and/or send it overseas.



Ah, but that's not all. The plan also includes:

. -Wiretaps for some IP crimes;

.-"Updating" the law so we can charge intellectual property criminals under US law anywhere in the world, no matter what the local regulations say; and
.-Education programs to teach children "respect" for copyright law, so they can "Just Say No to Copyright Infringement."

via copyfight (http://www.corante.com/copyfight/);(keep bias in mind)

thethule
10-14-2004, 10:43 AM
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.....heard it all before. They cant do anything about file sharing. There will always be an alternative, a different way of going about it. As for the record companies, i dont feel sorry for a second about them supposedly losing money. Its their fault for not reacting fast enough to a changing market. And i for one dont believe that the artists are getting less money cuz of p2p sharing. As for pirate software...its been said roughly 3 billion times already, and i have even heard it from the mouth of people at one of the 3 big 3d software companies. They dont care about the little guy downloading their stuff, in fact they dont mind it at all as it means that more people are learning their software. Then when little Billy gets older and becomes pro, he buys the software that he grew up to love.

Regards,


Marc

slaughters
10-14-2004, 12:54 PM
...As for the record companies, i dont feel sorry for a second about them supposedly losing money..... And i for one dont believe that the artists are getting less money cuz of p2p sharing....You take something that someone has made without their permission then it is THEFT. It does not matter if you *think* it hurts anyone or not. Let me say that again because I've heard to many self serving justifications in this thread.

"It does not matter what you *think*. You take something without permission then it is THEFT!!"

Pay the artists, or get their permission, but don't steal their work!

P.S.
Advocating piracy is (a) Bullsh*t and (b) A good way of getting kicked off CGTalk.

Lyr
10-14-2004, 02:01 PM
Why pirate Maya Unlimited when you can get Lightwave, a complete and well respected package, for cheaper?
Because pirating Maya Unlimited is still cheaper than buying Lightwave.

As far as record stores going out of business, hasn't Tower recently filed for bankruptcy protection?

Also if you think pirated software does not get used in studios, you are wrong.

sumpm1
10-14-2004, 03:42 PM
They dont care about the little guy downloading their stuff, in fact they dont mind it at all as it means that more people are learning their software. Then when little Billy gets older and becomes pro, he buys the software that he grew up to love.

I totally agree with this.

Leionaaad
10-14-2004, 04:00 PM
Wash quoted:

".-"Updating" the law so we can charge intellectual property criminals under US law anywhere in the world, no matter what the local regulations say;"

Well this is tipical for the american government: They are so full of themselves, that they actually believe they have the right to go anywhere on this earth, just because they are armed to the bones. "Today we will burn irak for terrorism, tomorrow will nuke russia for piracy" they might think.

And about music and stuff: didn't you ever pass a CD to a friend saying "take a good listen to this". Or you never lend a copy of game, movie or whatever to other person?
The people who decided for some reason to point with the fingers, they are perhaps pointing in the wrong direction.

WE ARE ALL DIRTY! Even the guys with some millions income per year.

And take a look to South Park, eppisode "Cristian Hard Rock". Then you will see.

boboroshi
10-14-2004, 05:01 PM
Actually, it isn't in Canada. People are pretaxed on cds, cd burners, dvds and a lot of other stuff. People in Canada can download until the cows come home and they can't be touched.

Go Canada. Now if it only weren't so damn cold all the time, I'd look at goign ex-pat. ;)

The problem with the induce act is that eventually, it'll get overturned on the logic of it. If the FBI states that someone who makes a device or program is responsible for the use of it, then you're going to open up all sorts of legal issues.

Is the gun maker responsible for someone shooting someone else?

Is the auto maker responsible for the idiot that can't drive and kills a family while drunk? Maybe it's the alcohol distiller. Or the distributor. Or the bar. They all provided him with an opportunity...

And why does the FBI think that US Code (legal code) has any affect on the rest of the world? oy.

RobertoOrtiz
10-14-2004, 05:11 PM
Either get back in topic or ill close this thread so fast that
heads will spin.

Consider that the last warning shot.

-R

oshiroii
10-14-2004, 05:15 PM
Where have I seen this discussion before? Or actually, how many time have I seen it before? This was about the goverment coming with some new "war" against piracy, not another thread in which people say:"I don't support it but I don't mind" vs people who say:"I don't support it, and it's bad, it's illigimate" and than there is an endless discussion. Let's either stop before it's to late or get back on the real topic ;)

Ondrayce
10-14-2004, 05:28 PM
The technology for sharing various forms of media has grown a lot faster than these companies' business practices have grown. Companies stick to what makes them money and its not until they start losing money that they are forced to change the way they do things. Sooner or later they're are going to find out that they are losing more money on suing internet pirates than they would have on just keeping up with the rest of the world. Online music stores and Comcast OnDemand Cable are part of a slow start in the right direction, but at least its a start.

So for the reason of forcing big companies, run by stupid old men, to support the the progression of technology at a small expense, rather than hording all the money that they could possibly squeeze out of a consumer, I will support the idea of file sharing whether it's legal or not.


Wash quoted:
And about music and stuff: didn't you ever pass a CD to a friend saying "take a good listen to this". Or you never lend a copy of game, movie or whatever to other person?
The people who decided for some reason to point with the fingers, they are perhaps pointing in the wrong direction. Loaning a CD to someone is completely different from copying it and giving it away.


Where have I seen this discussion before? Or actually, how many time have I seen it before? This was about the goverment coming with some new "war" against piracy, not another thread in which people say:"I don't support it but I don't mind" vs people who say:"I don't support it, and it's bad, it's illigimate" and than there is an endless discussion. Let's either stop before it's to late or get back on the real topic What did you expect? Debates on the actual war on drugs always lead to a debate on whether drugs should be legal or not.

Proximus
10-14-2004, 06:12 PM
Dont worrie, is just the next step in trying to take total control over society..

The Power need to justify its own existence. They need more criminals to be able to say to the people, "be afraid" and "you need us".
Funny...There are not enough millions of people in prison in US, so they make more 'laws', to bring some more inmates into the system.

Is nothing about right vs. wrong, is just about power.

beerseba
10-14-2004, 07:07 PM
For example.

I work with a civil engineering firm and all the software we have here is LEGAL.

The most expensive is the AUTOCAD 2004.

But, who i learned who to use it? with a ILLEGAL version of AUTOCAD. A teacher told me once.. Why you believe AutoCAD is so widely spreaded in the world? and why it can be so easily cheated and instaled everywhere? because it makes that all the students of Engineerinng, Architecture and related use it as their primary program.. And what would happen when they get their degree and look for a job? they only know AUTOCAD so it will be the standard for everything.. and it will make all the employers to buy it if they want to work in engineering and architecture, because our law is severe with the companys and the software they use. [my office has been visited twice already to check their software].

So... you can see it also with a lot of other programs that offers "fully functional demo"...

slaughters
10-14-2004, 08:14 PM
...But, who i learned who to use it? with a ILLEGAL version of AUTOCAD....Great. You're a crook who learned a trade from the items you stole.

I guess you have a lot to be proud of.

NanoGator
10-14-2004, 08:19 PM
Great. You're a crook who learned a trade from the items you stole.

I guess you have a lot to be proud of.

If he learned to use it and became a solid customer, then he has little reason to not be proud.

edit: The point was, in that case, he made good on it. Not that he was justified.

Sorry, I should cut out the short quips.

lanedaughtry
10-14-2004, 08:37 PM
Great. You're a crook who learned a trade from the items you stole.

I guess you have a lot to be proud of.
Do you really think that the majority of people in the industry have done anything less??? There are degrees of wrong and I'm firmly of the opinion that using pirated software to learn and to build a career off of is way, way down there on the list. Mind you not making money with it, learning with it.

Granted most of the big boys are coming around now and providing educational copies which is a huge step forward but do you really think that people should be punished or looked down on for teaching themselves the ropes on pirated software?

Would you not hire someone if you found out that they had learned on pirated software?

-L

spacemunky
10-14-2004, 08:38 PM
why aren't people talking about what is really happening with all of this. THIS IS A HANDOUT TO CORPORATIONS. People steal because corporations make us wage slaves and make sure we do not have enough money to ever gain independance from our wealthy overlords. We have found a way at least with one type of product to turn the tables on them, and now they cry foul. Well here is a newsflash, when companies stop price fixing, shipping jobs oversees, and controling the public with billions in mass market advertising designed to squash independant thought then we will respect their phony intelectulal property rights. Until then they should get used to being on the recieving end of the stick because file sharing is only the beginning of the revolt, not the final battle.

pgp_protector
10-14-2004, 08:47 PM
Well,
#1 - Downloading music with out paying for it really is illeagle guys. It's stealing from the artist who made it, regardless of how much you wanted to listen to it or what kind of sophisticated justifications you make to yourself about it.

No, Downloading music you dont have a Legal Right to download is illeagle.
There are a lot of people who WANT you to download there music, and give there music away for free. According to Your statment, I can't go to my local Midi Web site and download a Public Domain Version of the 1812 Oveture, because that is Downloading Music without paying for it.

rebo
10-14-2004, 09:15 PM
The 1812 Overture rocks!

mummey
10-14-2004, 09:23 PM
Either get back in topic or ill close this thread so fast that
heads will spin.

Consider that the last warning shot.

-R

I was wondering when the mods' patience would wear out. :wip:

beerseba
10-14-2004, 09:39 PM
At first. Thanks Lane_daughtry and NanoGator for your oppinions.. i felt alone for a few time.

Great. You're a crook who learned a trade from the items you stole.

I guess you have a lot to be proud of.
Hi slaughters

I'm sorry if I offended you with my comments. it wasn't my idea to hurt anyone. I was telling you the story of how things happened to me.

I guess you mean it like.. i will explain it with an example

hey!! he stole the bank, got a lot of money, with that money he created a company, with the company he gets a profit. So... he became LEGAL with ILEGAL founds.

You could say the same with the ILEGAL procedures of the countries which came here and took the resources and people from here, without asking a permission.. nothing. Now it's history and is respected for us and even we celebrate the anniversary of it!!.

The ILEGAL procedures of countries which invade anothers for not-so-clear objectives.

and so on.... There are a lot of not-so-clear Legal human activities.

It's difficult with the software because is an intangible thing, not like the money. You can have the same program in two places at the same time, but not the same dollar in two places at the same time!!

That's why people think.. let's get a copy of it.. any way there will stay the original!!

I won't defend my "history" with the price of the CAD software [now AutoCAD 2005 costs near US$2500] when an average annual income for a student in my country is just US$600. [and i think is a optimistic value].

And believe me, i didn't made all the effort to study and get a degree just for being a crook. I know is not the LEGAL way of doing it.

But i ask for your respect about me and your opinions. We're not here to discuss about if you're a crook or a decent-and-respected-man. we share opinions and, as far as i know, we respect ourselves, no matter how or who you are.

Again i present my apologies.

beerseba
10-14-2004, 09:58 PM
Hi Slaughters

I saw your Personal homepage and i've found your resume

http://www.stansight.com/resume.html

You've been a lot of time working with computers, and you've learned a a lot of programs!!

i know this is not related with this topic, but would you mind explain me how could i achieve that level of knowledge of programs? how do you made it?

Thanks in advance

thesuit
10-14-2004, 10:01 PM
I think music and software are not the same nor is there a way to compare them. Like many of you already stated I too have heard from one of the suits in a top 3d company that they actually profit from piracy when used for learning. After all, if there is a lot of - say for example - Maya artists doing great Maya stuff then mid-level studios and small production houses are going to use Maya. At the end if you pay for it when you make money out of it then I guess it wouldnt hurt Alias to have an unofficial version of PLE going around. I still think piracy is wrong but I also think that there are some degrees in which it could be justifiable.

About music, well... they had it comming. Plus a good idea would be if you guys checked twice whos making the bucks, the artist actually making the music or the record sales company forcing them to sign those horrible 7-record-deals... let me put it this way:

7-record-deals = artists says " :shrug: i dont have enough music to fill 7 cds for deadline so I'll have to fill with crap :sad: " ending up with "19 tracks only 1 good song :banghead: " and our good pals at the big record companies go "$ching :deal: ching$"

Dont buy CDs! better attend concerts. About legalizing mp3... i dont and wounldt mind buyin a 10 cent - 25 cent song.

DotPainter
10-14-2004, 11:57 PM
I don't think the DOJ has a choice. They have to respond to the pressure from the industry and show the world that the US is serious. With so many countries turning a blind eye towards piracy of US products, it is hard to tell others to crack down, if you don't do it yourself. Likewise, this whole P2P, I can share what I want cause I am a free soul with my rights to privacy is pure BS. The DOJ, therefore, is also trying to combat this growing culture of "justification" of software or music piracy, whith such attitudes like "well it was there" or "if they didn't want me to have it...." or "I am trying it out before buying...". Let's be honest, if someone downloads a free copy of something they should have paid for, they know it is stealing and this is exactly why they do it, to get something for nothing, whatever the reason. Therefore, it behooves the DOJ to get involved and make the clear distinction between privacy and piracy on the 'net.

With that said, I think the 'net is like pandora's box and no matter what they say, the U.S. will have a hard time closing it.

sumpm1
10-15-2004, 01:26 AM
We are all debating what is truly right and wrong. In a perfect world it would be great to think that we would actually do what is right. History has proved that man will do what he can to get his own self ahead. Whether that means cutting workers wages, or skyrocketing prices. The music industry has milked it for all it is worth, were their pricing tactics fair? Assume that they decide that file sharing has impacted their profits too much, and then in turn drop the prices of the cd's. That is almost like them saying that they could have priced those cd's lower in the first place....Ohh, but they wanted MORE! That's fair business, right. Well we want MORE TOO!

Let me ask you this. Cd's are expensive. If Cd's had been half price all along would you own twice as many? Or can you already afford to get all the cd's that you really want? My point is that they could have kept the prices lower and more music would have been bought. So their profits would have been about the same and the consumers AND musicians AND music in general would have flourished more. But they don't care about the consumer, the artists, OR music. They only care about themselves and their profits(understandably), this is how people work. And that is how we work too. We'll take all we can get and that is the fact of the matter. Right or wrong.

Sorry, one more analogy here. The ultimate in right and wrong: America in the early 1900's and the sweatshops, child labor. They severely mistreated people. Slavery. YES it is very wrong, we know. THEY knew. THEY did it anyways. Why, because it was too easy! And it profited themselves, which is everyones goals.

Asking people not to download music when it is so easy to, is like asking a man not to have sex with a beautiful woman who is begging you to give it to her, it's too easy.

This is my OPINION on the matter and on people in general, not MY policy on piracy. I do not condone piracy, or condone slavery or any of the other things mentioned. I am simply saying that people WILL do it whether it is right or wrong, face it.

eliseu gouveia
10-15-2004, 01:38 AM
I´m glad they´re going after them pirates, I hate pirates.


i much prefer ninjas, ninjas are cool, and by cool I mean totally sweet.
I mean, they´re mamals, they fight all the time and their purpose is to flip out and kill people.

That is so cool!

Signal2Noise
10-15-2004, 02:13 AM
Especially if the ninjas are turtles. And really, really cool if they're also teenagers!

With everything else that's going in the world (not to mention and on home territory as well) the last thing the feds should be concerned about is a lil' music downloading.

Shinova
10-15-2004, 03:10 AM
I'll only be really worried when they start suing thousands of ordinary people. :)

plaguelord
10-15-2004, 03:30 AM
Especially if the ninjas are turtles. And really, really cool if they're also teenagers!
hahahaha that really makes me laugh.

btw I love ninja turtles too :buttrock:

mr_wowtrousers
10-15-2004, 03:38 AM
Maybe Sony should be more vocal in banning the sale of hardware and media that promotes copright violation to protect its music interests.

Sony says "We should ban Sony DVD recorders! We should ban Sony dual-layer DVD burners!! We should ban Mini Disc recorders! We should ban Sony MP3 players! We should ban Sony DVD-R's! We should ban Sonye CD-R's!! We should ban Sony Mini Discs!!!"

Let's face reality. The reason the industry is pissed off is because it sees all this revenue leaking away. They don't give a rat's left one for copyright issues. It is about bucks that they are NOT making. If the industry could figure out a way to use P2P and have people pay for it (how about . . . lower the prices/raise the quality/reduce the limitations . . . crazy I know) they would be doing it hand over fist. They are slow on the uptake and they just don't get it.

I am not saying piracy is wrong, but the entertainment industry wants its cake and wants to be able to eat it too.

slaughters
10-15-2004, 12:40 PM
...You've been a lot of time working with computers, and you've learned a a lot of programs!!

i know this is not related with this topic, but would you mind explain me how could i achieve that level of knowledge of programs? how do you made it?

Thanks in advanceFor programming languages I went to an Engineering University and got a BS in Comp Sci. In the (good god has it been that long) 19 years since I've picked up a few more, mostly from reading and doing web based projects on my own and for my company.

Art is a hobby, so initially I got what I could afford, like Paint Shop Pro instead of Adobe Photo Shop, trueSpace instead of Max/Lightwave/Maya. When I went back to school for continuing education I was able to pick up Student copies of Adobe PS, Dreamweaver, etc. for prices at about a 1/3rd of the retail price. Additonally, overtime I got involved in different software communities on the web and was invited to join several beta test groups.

My point in all of these posts has been:

1) There are no easy, quick fixes. It takes dedication and patience.
2) Taking something without permission is stealing.
3) Being proud of stealing, and telling everyone else that it is OK, is shameful.

Work hard. Be dedicated, and you'll get where you want to go soon enough.

P.S.

Neither I, nor anyone I know who hires personel, would hire someone who publicly admits to stealing software. It's too big a risk. It's too hard to prove they won't steal again. Maybe from my company. Who knows what else they might consider to be "OK" to take just because they want it and it's easy to do.

spacemunky
10-15-2004, 05:58 PM
WOW, slaughters...you have to be kidding me. Who are you Hulk Hogan, "eat your vitamins, say your prayers and you too can be big and strong". Give it up. This world is run by big corporations and governments set up to support them, and they do not have the same altruistic ideals that you have. They will steal, rob, lie, and kill to make money over your dead body. No one would learn half of what they know in 3D if they only used apps they could afford, and the companies know that and have finally started releasing learning editions which i give them credit for. As far as music and movies go, I have friends in the record industry and let me tell you something. You will never find a more dishonest profession as long as you live. That entire industry is designed to suck the life out of artists and sell it so piece of crap execs can live the good life and go out and bang supermodels. I'm glad you live in a utopia, but guess what, bad people run these industries and they do not deserve one penny of all of our money until they are ousted. And for anyone who wants some info on Ashcroft, this is a guy who was beat in an election by a dead guy, and then payed 8,000 to drape a cloth over the statue of lady liberty because her naked body offended him. Oh, and he also thinks its ok to censure the department of justice emails and he thinks calico cats are a sign of the devil and actually had a security detail sweep the international courts in europe before he traveled there on government business.

Proximus
10-15-2004, 08:05 PM
:thumbsup: Well said spacemunky :thumbsup:


Proximus

“Anyone who believes that all laws should
always be obeyed would have made a fine
slave catcher. Anyone who believes that all
laws are applied equally, despite race,
religion, or economic status, is a fool.”
— John J. Miller

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/policestate/PoliceBrutality.html

csven
10-15-2004, 09:38 PM
same old debate. personally, i don't need stuff i can't buy. and i'm not so weak-minded that corporate ads will make me desperate for the stuff they churn out. maybe the fight needs to start there.

slaughters
10-15-2004, 10:01 PM
Last post on this topic (promise!)

The argument that others are bad so I should be to is a rather nihlistic attitude. What a horrible world we would live in if all people believed this.

I'm also saddened that the simple philosophy of "don't steal" has been met with such a large number of people who strongly disagree. But, in the end it doesn't matter much what I say. It's what people actually do that counts.

Just do what your concience tells you is right. You're the one who in the end has to live with your actions.

Lorecanth
10-15-2004, 10:14 PM
Just two cents as an owner of Maya. I think making money should be the line. I want to make sure that Alias is ok. That for the forseeable future it continues to create an excellent software package. I don't give a crap about the morality, I'll pay for the software because, they create a good product that I want them to continue developing.

I just think you have to play it smart, don't believe the protestant installed bullsh*t. The reason that we shouldn't steal is so that no one will steal from us. If the sheep want to buy a britney spears track let them. If Britney Spears wants to make money let her target an audience not comprised of 14 year old girls waiting on their allowance.

If you can't create a good enough product, that your audience doesn't believe you shouldn't be paid.... you shouldn't be paid.

NanoGator
10-15-2004, 10:37 PM
"I'm also saddened that the simple philosophy of "don't steal" has been met with such a large number of people who strongly disagree."

The logical conclusion is that this is a multi-faceted issue with many shades of gray.

Part of it comes from a dilution of the term 'piracy'. To some, it means "acquire without paying", to others it means "Download content whether you are licensed or not." Without defining which defition you're referring to, you are going to get what appears to be resistance to a simple idea. That make sense?

spacemunky
10-15-2004, 10:38 PM
stealing is an act of rebellion against a system designed to keep as many people as possible in abject poverty. Only in an even system would stealing be wrong under all circumstances. You steal from your neighbor...that might be wrong...you steal from Alias who have not changed their base code since 1999 but continue to put out new upgrades to pull in more cash...not so wrong. And i work with people who worked with Maya's base code that long ago so please...no flames about maya...I could say the same about MAX and alot of other apps..cough.cough..microblows

thethule
10-15-2004, 10:41 PM
Slaughter, can i ask a question? Just curious, but did you create your avatar picture? I only ask, cuz its not on your website..


Regards,



Marc

combatmantra
10-15-2004, 10:53 PM
WOW, slaughters...you have to be kidding me. Who are you Hulk Hogan, "eat your vitamins, say your prayers and you too can be big and strong". Give it up. This world is run by big corporations and governments set up to support them, and they do not have the same altruistic ideals that you have. They will steal, rob, lie, and kill to make money over your dead body. No one would learn half of what they know in 3D if they only used apps they could afford, and the companies know that and have finally started releasing learning editions which i give them credit for. As far as music and movies go, I have friends in the record industry and let me tell you something. You will never find a more dishonest profession as long as you live. That entire industry is designed to suck the life out of artists and sell it so piece of crap execs can live the good life and go out and bang supermodels. I'm glad you live in a utopia, but guess what, bad people run these industries and they do not deserve one penny of all of our money until they are ousted. And for anyone who wants some info on Ashcroft, this is a guy who was beat in an election by a dead guy, and then payed 8,000 to drape a cloth over the statue of lady liberty because her naked body offended him. Oh, and he also thinks its ok to censure the department of justice emails and he thinks calico cats are a sign of the devil and actually had a security detail sweep the international courts in europe before he traveled there on government business.
Couldn,t agree more.

Yeah big corporations , some involved in wars, like enron, some other having employees of 14 years in the third world, like nike etc etc and yes we are the criminals.....

Dougs
10-16-2004, 02:00 AM
Okay...I've heard all sorts of justifications for stealing off the internet, one of them being the quality of the music. If you think the quality of the music is going to improve because you're stealing it...you've got another thing coming.

As to the the whole evil corporations argument, you could say that yes some of them are evil, but I don't know how anyone could say that they all are. I mean do all of the...and I love this...piece of crap exec's really bang super models?...Do you have any proof of this?Could you upload me some pics of them? :twisted: just kidding

Oh yeah...I almost forgot, I don't know about calico cats but black cats kinda' scare me not that I think their evil but it's just one of those things I heard when I was little :shrug:

NanoGator
10-16-2004, 02:06 AM
" If you think the quality of the music is going to improve because you're stealing it...you've got another thing coming."

Well.. it'd kind of have to. I'm not supporting that as a method of improving music quality, but it is worth mentioning that only the good albums will continue to make money.

I'm curious why nobody refers to the no-return policy of music cds as theft.

gunslingerblack
10-16-2004, 06:33 AM
wow i really like this topic. very interesting points and opinions everyone has. from one side to the other it's pretty split. i would have to agree though that the assault on piracy wont be anything big, how can they expect to get everyone? they can't then what they infringe on more of our rights and walk all over us. these laws are friggin crazy, all because some whiny ass old fuddy duddies are getting wiped out because they couldn't evolve fast enough because they are too set in thier ways. so sorry that you are going the way of the dinosaur stop friggin crying about it. it's the age of the digital pirate now and although piracy is theft the impact still remains small. the statistic that comes to mind is that sales increased after music sharing became widespread comes to mind. (around the time of original napster) i also saw a very interesting point of why distribute such easily crackable programs, it's almost like the software companies want you to learn on thiers so that you'll come back and buy it. it's the philosophy of get them while they're young. put yourself in this position, you are head of cyber security for a big company. your in charge of making sure noone can break into your database. but a skilled hacker manages to get into ur computers and futses around (we all know real hackers dont just throw viruses around like jerks, just the bored ones) you catch the hacker, do you send him to jail? or do you recruit him as the newest member of your security section. if he knows how to get in you can have him make it so that others like him can't. i dont think learning on a cracked version of a program is bad. however i do believe if you try and make a profit from using that cracked version that is wrong. both are stealing but one enables you to better yourself and your liveliness not at the cost of the company. once you are ready to make money then you can go and buy the program, and when you have the skills you need companies will be able to offer you the money to get your program. so you will have purchased it anyways just neglegating any wrong you might have incurred.

holy essay batman!

Pent
10-16-2004, 07:09 AM
I purchase albums only sold by the artists and not through an industry company. How many countless artists have started distributing thier songs online for free. Many.

slaughters
10-16-2004, 11:42 AM
Slaughter, can i ask a question? Just curious, but did you create your avatar picture? I only ask, cuz its not on your website...I need to update my site. My more recent images are not posted there.

The Old Diver image I recently started using for my icon I never really finished. The lighting is not right, the hair is not right, and I'm not too happy with the skin reflectance (my renderer does not support SSS and has no hair plug-in). Here is the most recent version of it, but I'm still not happy with it:
http://www.stansight.com/tmp/RosetteDiver4.jpg

Dougs
10-16-2004, 11:49 AM
Well.. it'd kind of have to. I'm not supporting that as a method of improving music quality, but it is worth mentioning that only the good albums will continue to make money.


Um, sorry Nano but I think you need to re-think this. I think the key word you have to think about is ---money...

I don't care what any of the bands say publicly about not caring about people downloading their music. I simply don't believe them, they want to make money and I don't see anything wrong with that. If nobody's going to buy it why should it be that good any how? Think about it, you're an artist right? I want to see some of your art, if I like it I might think about paying you for it later, but only if it's your best stuff, okay?:D

StephanD
10-16-2004, 12:12 PM
If piracy is any kind of revolution,it's got to be the biggest flop in revolutions' history.

Lique
10-16-2004, 12:44 PM
whether this is true or not, I've heard that sony gave away the technique to crack its own ps2 machine so that it can play pirated dvd games.

:shrug:

StephanD
10-16-2004, 12:46 PM
When you say 'Sony' you probably mean a disgruntled employee wishing to get interest...Or do you have a link where this has been exposed?

csven
10-16-2004, 12:51 PM
I purchase albums only sold by the artists and not through an industry company. How many countless artists have started distributing thier songs online for free. Many.same here. afaic there's two ways to affect change: 1) steal from the corp music industry or 2) stop buying from the corp music industry. in the end it's the money that's at issue. and money is a medium for an exchange of goods. from a completely amoral pov, if i get something, i should give something. it's an amoral system of exchange that's worked pretty good for thousands of years.

and the whole idea of relating music "need" to the plight of those in poverty is a crock. no one died because they couldn't listen to music. if you want to revolt, there are plenty of real products that people actually need that have bigger corporate gouging in them. don't see many people pirating heating oil. don't see many threads on how energy corporations screwed over the people of California. music, movies, and all entertainment is a luxury. let's not insult the truly impoverished people of the world by suggesting otherwise.

my personal view is that music will decline. musicians will revert to making money the way they did before the phonogram which is mostly how they make it now. recorded music will be advertisements; free giveaways to get people to the show just like banks hand out toasters for new accounts or phone companies hand out free phones for signing up. many musicians today hang on through tough times hoping for stardom. most work a day job and have families. with that future gone, there will be fewer willing to pursue what is a pretty risky and difficult career.

afaic entertainment is the 21st century buffalo; there's lots of it. for now. but it'll be killed off by callous attitudes and piracy and people who think someone "owes" them music and movies. look at the musicians in Taiwan - reports are that they're dwindling due to piracy and can't survive. look at record shops in South Korea - effectively wiped out by illegal downloads (something like 94% closed down iirc). look at the software industry in China - nothing to speak of mainly because there's no livelihood in it. that's why i choose #2. because i like music. i like movies. i like digital art. just like the stuff we're doing on this forum.

my .02

Lique
10-16-2004, 12:56 PM
No. i've no proof/link ... just heard it from somewhere. it seems that the 'gossip' wasn't talking about disgruntled employee. If it's from inside sony and the info leak, then game publishers wont want to deal with sony ever again of course.

Dougs
10-16-2004, 01:23 PM
same here. afaic there's two ways to affect change: 1) steal from the corp music industry or 2) stop buying from the corp music industry. in the end it's the money that's at issue. and money is a medium for an exchange of goods. from a completely amoral pov, if i get something, i should give something. it's an amoral system of exchange that's worked pretty good for thousands of years.

and the whole idea of relating music "need" to the plight of those in poverty is a crock. no one died because they couldn't listen to music. if you want to revolt, there are plenty of real products that people actually need that have bigger corporate gouging in them. don't see many people pirating heating oil. don't see many threads on how energy corporations screwed over the people of California. music, movies, and all entertainment is a luxury. let's not insult the truly impoverished people of the world by suggesting otherwise.

my personal view is that music will decline. musicians will revert to making money the way they did before the phonogram which is mostly how they make it now. recorded music will be advertisements; free giveaways to get people to the show just like banks hand out toasters for new accounts or phone companies hand out free phones for signing up. many musicians today hang on through tough times hoping for stardom. most work a day job and have families. with that future gone, there will be fewer willing to pursue what is a pretty risky and difficult career.

afaic entertainment is the 21st century buffalo; there's lots of it. for now. but it'll be killed off by callous attitudes and piracy and people who think someone "owes" them music and movies. look at the musicians in Taiwan - reports are that they're dwindling due to piracy and can't survive. look at record shops in South Korea - effectively wiped out by illegal downloads (something like 94% closed down iirc). look at the software industry in China - nothing to speak of mainly because there's no livelihood in it. that's why i choose #2. because i like music. i like movies. i like digital art. just like the stuff we're doing on this forum.

my .02
I agree with your post although I'd like to highlight just that one part of your post, but change it to say " The music has already declined" because that's what I think my .03

Icestar
10-16-2004, 01:32 PM
How many freelancers have been screwed over with legal loopholes in contracts by companies/corporations who then use their armies of lawyers to safeguard themselves? Dont kid yourselves, nor place them on pedestals. Now I'm not saying the same situation happens in the music industry, but corporations aren't innocent children. They're just out for themselves and couldn't give a damn about you the individual, they only care about your money and how to make you spent it on them.

eahartz
10-17-2004, 01:07 AM
whether this is true or not, I've heard that sony gave away the technique to crack its own ps2 machine so that it can play pirated dvd games.

:shrug:I too met sales/demo guy from Discreet back in 2001 who casually mentioned something about how Discreet willfully put out the cracks and "made it super easy so even a 15 year old computer savvy kid" could learn the package in question which was Max. Thought I'd chime in for whatever it is worth. This shocked me at the time but makes perfect sense. Companies know piracy will always exist so why not hook 'em on the product when they are young. I personally don't condone using pirated material for any comercial purposes by the way.

rock
10-17-2004, 05:58 PM
When AutoCad 9, 10, 11, and 12 were introduced, Autodesk encouraged or hoped to have as many people to use it as possible, cracked or non-cracked version so that its user base will be strong. Thinking about it now, Softimage should have used that strategy, with or without the price drop, to solidify a young, educated and strong user base that it has been hoping for.

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