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Simon
10-10-2004, 03:19 PM
About a month ago I shelled out on a new system from overclockers, built it, bragged a bit, completed farcry with all the settings turned up.

When I bought my components, everyone kept going on about how futureproof everything was. Oh how they were wrong.

I bought a amd 3500 64 thinking that in a few months there would be an increase in 64bit applications being released. There has been, but not much.

Then there was the fact that the 3800 came out, then the 4000, the fx53 and now the fx 55.

I'm sure by the time longhorn is out and lightwave 9 64bit is out I'll be in need of a new processor anyway, and so will end up buying a new processor then. By then there will be dual cores out. I'm going to have to buy them. Then quad cores or whatever. Its all just a neverending cycle.

The 64bit stuff on the 3500 will probably never be used to its full potential, I should have invested in a chip that gives me the most power when I need it... NOW!

Then theres my mobo. I bought the most expensive so it wouldnt be obsolete for another two years are so. Two months after getting it I hear people mumbling about pci express. ARGGH.

I think its worth not buying the most expensive things to be futureproof, as chances are, itlle be obsolete within a few months anyway.

By what you need, when you need it, dont let the buzzwords blind you.

-Ok I'm glad I got that outta my system.

Cheers

Simon

thesuit
10-10-2004, 04:44 PM
I agree... I think technology goes to fast for independent artists and for small production houses like myself. And although I love the fact that tech is always moving foward, I feel that some of us are being left out of the rain. The only solution is a dramatic change in prices... which has been happening lately but in a slow motion version.

Hats off for the people at XSI for dropping prices... and this is comming from a guy who owns a 3d studio entirely built on Maya. I'm expanding a few more stations... defenitely gonna try XSI before any purchase...

I'm hoping the same starts happening with hardware...

jscott
10-10-2004, 05:18 PM
You always pay a premium for the most current technology. So you are correct. Buy what you need now because the newer tech is always going to be cheaper in the future.

-jscott

nendo_3d
10-10-2004, 05:47 PM
soon it will be future proof. there this theory or something where in the future there silling out new processir that quickly that eventualy you will not notice the differance. so wheit gets to that pint i think it will be future proof. software moves slower than hardware so it should be safe then

lots
10-10-2004, 06:49 PM
You're describing a chicken and the egg problem. Most hardware vendors wont push 64bit unless there's software to back it up. Most software vendors wont push 64bit unless there's hardware to back it up. And while yes AMD is pushing for 64bit, no one else really is. Also, when it comes to purchasing a new computer you have to take into account that something newer and better is ALWAYS around the corner. You just pick what you think will do you the best, and stick to your guns. There are alot of great things about the Athlon64 and Opteron, aside from thier 64bit nature. They are great 32bit chips. They have other features which make them appealing, at least to me. Cooler, onboard memory controller, nx-bit, NUMA, all of which can be used today.

As for PCIe, well that has been "coming" for well over a year or two. While its here, its not in very high volumes yet, and will probably not initially give you any benifit in performance until software starts really using the bus. I mean, with AGP 8x the software out there didnt even come close to saturating that bus. And now with PCIe x16, which is roughly 4 times the bandwidth of AGP 8x, I doubt we'll see applications that push the bandwidth of PCIe at least soon.

Will your computer last you another 2 years? You bet. As of right now, you have a pretty powerful system. Software is generally behind the curve in comparison to hardware, so it'll be some time before your software catches up. Which means you'll get some pretty good use out of it. The question here is, does it make you more productive? Are things faster and easier to do now that you've got it? Was it worth the cost? If so, then hasnt the system done what you wanted it to?

nendo_3d
10-10-2004, 06:57 PM
they've made a game or software can't remember which it is but anyway it was bit for th 64 bit, the only problem is the other software it requires to use the 64 bit correctly won't be out till next year

Hazdaz
10-10-2004, 08:48 PM
About a month ago I shelled out on a new system from overclockers, built it, bragged a bit, completed farcry with all the settings turned up.

When I bought my components, everyone kept going on about how futureproof everything was. Oh how they were wrong.

I bought a amd 3500 64 thinking that in a few months there would be an increase in 64bit applications being released. There has been, but not much.

Then there was the fact that the 3800 came out, then the 4000, the fx53 and now the fx 55.

I'm sure by the time longhorn is out and lightwave 9 64bit is out I'll be in need of a new processor anyway, and so will end up buying a new processor then. By then there will be dual cores out. I'm going to have to buy them. Then quad cores or whatever. Its all just a neverending cycle.

The 64bit stuff on the 3500 will probably never be used to its full potential, I should have invested in a chip that gives me the most power when I need it... NOW!

Then theres my mobo. I bought the most expensive so it wouldnt be obsolete for another two years are so. Two months after getting it I hear people mumbling about pci express. ARGGH.

I think its worth not buying the most expensive things to be futureproof, as chances are, itlle be obsolete within a few months anyway.

By what you need, when you need it, dont let the buzzwords blind you.

-Ok I'm glad I got that outta my system.

Cheers

SimonI realize that your just venting... but honestly it sounds like just plain whineying coming from someone that doesn't know jack about technology and PCs.

So who exactly is the idiot that said your PC (or ANY PC) is "future-proof"? Sounds like its coming either from a salesperson trying to make some good commission off of you, or maybe one of your friends that thinks he knows everything about PCs, yet probably doesn't know squat. I mean shti, you have a PC that I GUARENTEE is faster than 99.99% of the people here - and will still be blazing fast years down the line - and your complaining that NEXT year dual-core PCs will be coming out from AMD, and you will just "HAVE TO" upgrade!

Give me a freakin break!

(my reply was actaully gonna be alot more harsh toward your post, but I decided to back off, cuz I do realize that everyone does have a bad day once in a while, and I truly hope that this was one of them for you, and your not like that all the time)

Simon
10-10-2004, 09:14 PM
"So who exactly is the idiot that said your PC (or ANY PC) is "future-proof"? "

Well I'm afraid that was people on these forums!!

I see what you mean. I wasnt saying they conned me in, but everyone seems to be saying it.

And I think I do know a little about technology, being a 3d artist, head of my own studio, computer repairs specialist and engineer.

I wasnt saying that I WILL have to upgrade. I was pointing out the fault in our minds and the fist in their marketing which makes us think it. I was trying to make a point, not to whine.

You're describing a chicken and the egg problem.
You got it in one. :)

Hopefully in about 15 years processors will be fast enough that pure power wont be the concern. Then hopefully all this will be over.

Hazdaz
10-11-2004, 02:55 AM
Dude, anyone that's been using a PC for more than, oh say, a years time knows enough that NO computer - no matter now fast and no matter how high-end and no matter how expensive - is ever gonna be "future-proof".

Cuz if that was the case, I would still be using my C=128 and be amazed at the 320*240 resolution. :buttrock:

CLONEOPS
10-11-2004, 03:35 AM
-ya i hear all that..its all upgradable.. for about 10 minutes.
i've learned to live with an upgrade every about every 2 years and work with much cheaper last generation or more hardware. i wait untill there is some kind of breaking point when i am working on something and it actually becomes a persistent annoyance caused by slow hardware...i wait till i can catch up to the hardware and software then if i am on an equal footing with what i have..i will think about a nice upgrade.
It is nice to see a render fast though no doubt.. reponsive feedback is nice.
...but as i am not doing gobs of frames of animation production frenzy its not critical.
-plus money don't grow on trees.
i went from slot-a(eek!-it fried) athlon 700...to 3ghz athlon just very recently.
-never bought into the hype from early on.
On the other hand if i win the lotto..i just might buy a badass cray.

lots
10-11-2004, 04:25 AM
Thats interesting, considering the fastest Athlon money can buy is only 2.4 GHz :)

But im sure you meant an Athlon XP 3000+ (or Athlon64 3000+) ;)

Glenfx
10-11-2004, 04:38 AM
I dont see wheres all the fuzz, I can work making animations with either my amd 750, 900, 2.400 or 2.600. and till this day i dont think that i could be more productive with the latest tech. Its all in how you work.
I can still make the same ilustrations and in the exact same ways and achieving the exact same result in my old pentium 166mmx. using photoshop 3 or 5 :P

What am i going with this?..... if you say:
"technology gets obsolete in about two months" ...Are you saying you cant work with your current machine any longer?, What? It stops functioning?, Your 3D app doesnt work anymore?

I think that if you can still be quite productive for around two or three years, then you cant say the technology gets obsolete in two months....but in those three or more years.

Sorry.. i was venting too... i cant stand when people starts saying that the technology is obsolete in two months after purchase, when its not true.

EDIT: lots (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=21241) :i dont know where you live... but here in Venezuela is easy to find an amd 2.600 or 2.800 at low prices.

CLONEOPS
10-11-2004, 04:58 AM
Thats interesting, considering the fastest Athlon money can buy is only 2.4 GHz :)

But im sure you meant an Athlon XP 3000+ (or Athlon64 3000+) ;) - thanks yes ..xp barton core. i can live with the 3000+ tag any old day.cheers.
-in real g's runs at 2.4 - nice little rodder as my old board actually
spewed out brown spatt! out the capacitors...i assume my t- bird slot-a
still works as it did after the very first motherboard blew caps too....i was buying in bulk almost they were so cheap. :)

lots
10-11-2004, 07:45 AM
EDIT: lots (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=21241) :i dont know where you live... but here in Venezuela is easy to find an amd 2.600 or 2.800 at low prices.
No.. What i mean is it is impossible to buy an Athlon above 2.4 GHz (not that it matters much to this thread) But no such AMD chip exists, no matter WHERE you live. The FX-55 and Athlon64 4000+ are "Just around the corner," though ... :P Which probably means speeds of 2.6GHz

Granted you've got your batch of Athlon XPs or Athlon64s that will have a "speed rating" of up to 3800, this is not its actual GHz. The Athlon 64 3800+ runs at 2.4GHz, as well as the Opteron 1/2/850 and Athlon FX-53...

But anyway, like I was saying in my post. It's impossible to have the very best and fastest out there for very long, unless you are willing to spend lots money every few months. But think about it. If the hardware performs up to your expectation, whats the loss? Sure it will be bested in a few months. Big whoop, the machine will still last you for a few years. I've been using my current machine in one form or another for almost 3 years. It is still going strong, though it's starting to show its age though, with the higher poly models i am starting to push. Which is why i'm considering a major upgrade. Probably the only reason. Well.. that and its old :P and its about time i treated my self to a real nice system insted of buying something midrange :)

parallax
10-11-2004, 10:52 AM
Futureproof does not exist simply because of the current economic model. There is money to be made, thats why you don't get the best and fastest technically possible. Why do you think you don't have lightbulbs that can last for a thousand years?
Add to that the fact that the newest generation hardware always pays for the R&D of the previous.

nendo_3d
10-11-2004, 07:26 PM
i don't mean to be rudeor offencive but u seem like a lousy head of engineering and whatnot (if i am correct) because if u was then u would realise aready about nothings futureproof and there for not woory about it. but instead u moaning. maybe its just me thinking this but its eem abit odd don't ya think

Simon
10-11-2004, 07:33 PM
Yeah true, but when dealines are looming and your only producing 20 frames a day youll see where I'm coming from!

:shrug:

Tarrbot
10-11-2004, 10:12 PM
99sproth,

I think the posts where people are saying you aren't very tech savvy stem from the fact that PCI-e has been talked about for well over a year. We've known this was coming down the pike.

Additionally, we've known dual-cores were coming out next year, we've known that there are new (radically different) technologies coming out within the next year for quite some time.

Right now (or even 2 months ago) isn't the best time to go upgrading unless you're on a <500MHz machine with 64MB of RAM running Windows ME.

This is where the mindset those posts stem from, IMO.

Whether you're rendering 20 frames or 200,000 frames per day doesn't mean jack really. It's all about what you know now. There are hundreds of CTO/CIOs out there that know absolutely jack shit but are the head of technology of major companies.

I think that's the point of nendo_3d.

As far as buying a 64-bit processor now and crying that there aren't any 64-bit apps out, what did you expect? Windows XP-64 is still in beta, dude! You're not gonna see a large push for 64-bit apps until that ships.

It's really that simple.

Hazdaz
10-11-2004, 10:30 PM
You're not gonna see a large push for 64-bit apps until that ships.
Your actually not gonna see ANY 64-bit Windows apps until Window64 ships. Its all a chicken and egg situation, and the fact that AMD's 64-bit chips are selling as well as they are (and still offering VERY good 32-bit preformance) is a huge accomplishment, and a huge step forward in getting the industry to adopt 64-bit technology sooner rather than later. If we were still waiting on Intel, a fully 64-bit system (HW, SW and OS) would still be years away.

Simon
10-11-2004, 10:32 PM
Good point. I admit I was a little stupid.

Thing is all these things are always on the verge of coming out. I knew pci-e was coming out, but I didnt know when. They market everything to make everyone think itlle be out next year. Anyone want to start a sweekstakes on when all these amazing new techonogys will actually be out?

Longhorns release dates change on a monthly basis.

Apart from that I was just letting off steam at the way all middle/top range hardware seems to be aimed at freaking gamers who want the newest status symble instead of a stable, cool, product. I wasnt writing a technical article detailing the progression of technology and its downfalls, just pointing out the faults.

And what I say, as I've already made out, is makin a point. I WONT BE UPGRADING for at least another 3 years. I was just illustarting points.

.. just ignore me

Hazdaz
10-11-2004, 10:40 PM
If you get bad about buying a PC and then seeing new technology that comes out next month, then what the heck do you do when you go buy a CAR - something that probably costs 20 times what your PC cost - and then that car gets redesigned the following year, dropping your resale value to shti? :cry: ;)

Its all innovation - deal with it, cuz your not gonna stop it. ;)

Simon
10-11-2004, 10:48 PM
Being in the 3d industry I wouldnt be one to crit innovation.

BUT a whole load of this isnt really innovation. Technology might be increasing exponentially, but only over decades. The car you see next year has the same engine and the same chasiss as your car. They just repackage the product to hit another market.

The last time I saw innovation was the first GUI. Until I see the first nano processor I wont be patting anyones heads.

.. Now I have to find ways to deal with it.

( anyone got a no. for 'power users anonymous')

lots
10-12-2004, 12:38 AM
Well.. if you think about it, Athlon64 is made on a 130 nm process.. so in a way it is a nano processor :P Soon to be a 90nm process... ;)

MadMax
10-12-2004, 01:14 AM
About a month ago I shelled out on a new system from overclockers, built it, bragged a bit, completed farcry with all the settings turned up.

When I bought my components, everyone kept going on about how futureproof everything was. Oh how they were wrong.

I bought a amd 3500 64 thinking that in a few months there would be an increase in 64bit applications being released. There has been, but not much.

Then there was the fact that the 3800 came out, then the 4000, the fx53 and now the fx 55.
You bought a socket 754 board?!?!?!?!?

Who in the hell did you get that lousy advice from? ANYONE who knows jack about AMD knows that Athlon64 on socket 754 was a low end transitional product.

You'll have to blame Microsoft for lack of 64 bit apps. Until they finalize their specs, it is virutally impossible for anyone to write for it. AMD and Intel BOTH have to deal with that problem.

I'm sure by the time longhorn is out and lightwave 9 64bit is out I'll be in need of a new processor anyway, and so will end up buying a new processor then. By then there will be dual cores out. I'm going to have to buy them. Then quad cores or whatever. Its all just a neverending cycle.
Well you'll have a problem there. SOME level of future proofing is possible, but eventually you'll have to upgrade. I bought all Opterons, meaning all socket 940's. I have seen people here say AMD was going to p[hase out socket 940, in fact they have been saying it for awhile. Not only is it not going to happen anytime soon, AMD announced that dual core processors would be socket 940 and compatible with all current boards with a bios upgrade.

So what did that get me? Boards I bought many months ago, which are still viable products, will still have at least another 2 years of life in them with dual core chips.

The 64bit stuff on the 3500 will probably never be used to its full potential, I should have invested in a chip that gives me the most power when I need it... NOW!
Last time I checked you didn't require a 64 bit OS to utilize the power of the A64. Top Lightwave scroes are held by AMD chips, top Maya scores are held by AMD chips. Sorry but it doesn;t sound like you are all that computer literate.

Then theres my mobo. I bought the most expensive so it wouldnt be obsolete for another two years are so. Two months after getting it I hear people mumbling about pci express. ARGGH.
PCI Express has been talked about for a good year already. Where have you been? Not only does everyone know it is coming, there are even know model numbers from manufacturers that have been discussed for months.

I think its worth not buying the most expensive things to be futureproof, as chances are, itlle be obsolete within a few months anyway.

Geerally true, but if you know what you are doing, you can get a lot of decent life out of almost any setup.

lots
10-12-2004, 01:56 AM
You bought a socket 754 board?!?!?!?!?

Who in the hell did you get that lousy advice from? ANYONE who knows jack about AMD knows that Athlon64 on socket 754 was a low end transitional product.
The Athlon64 3500+ is a socket 939 chip. In fact, the Athlon64 3500 and Athlon64 3800 and AthlonFX-53 (socket 939) came out on the same day (http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040601/socket_939-03.html), and the Athlon64 3700 also made its debut on this day, but it is a socket 754 part (http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040601/socket_939-04.html). And the Athlon FX-53 (socket 940) has been "out" since March (http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040318/index.html). (I'm pretty much using these Tom's hardware articles as ways of showing the DATE of launch for these chips... nothing more)

Last time I checked you didn't require a 64 bit OS to utilize the power of the A64. Top Lightwave scroes are held by AMD chips, top Maya scores are held by AMD chips. Sorry but it doesn;t sound like you are all that computer literate.
Sure, some features on the Athlon64/FX/Opteron you dont need a 64bit OS for. NUMA is one. NX-Bit is another as well as the ondie memory controller. But, if you want to utilize the 64bit extentions, you WILL need a 64bit OS and 64bit software.

Simon
10-12-2004, 06:57 AM
I think that I might want to clear up its a 939 board. The ASUS av8 deluxe, probably the best motherboard there is!

Were they really released on the same day? I couldnt find a single supplier of any of them.

lots
10-12-2004, 02:32 PM
Being released on the same day and actually being able to buy the things are two different things :) As is practice these days, alot of hardware is launched on paper and eventually makes its way into the market a few months later.. Though, Tom's did seem to have a sample 3800+ and a 3500+..

MadMax
10-12-2004, 03:06 PM
I think that I might want to clear up its a 939 board. The ASUS av8 deluxe, probably the best motherboard there is!

Were they really released on the same day? I couldnt find a single supplier of any of them.
Okay, it's a 939. So what is the problem other than you bought something with a VIA based chipset instead of nVidia, of course that alone might be reason enough to be mad........?

PCI-E hasn't shown much evidence that it is faster than AGP anyway.

lots
10-12-2004, 03:33 PM
PCIe 16x is 4 times faster than AGP 8x. Its just nothing out there right now even utilizes the max bandwidth of AGP 8x... ;) Software's got some catching up to do...

Tarrbot
10-12-2004, 03:34 PM
MadMax states:PCI-E hasn't shown much evidence that it is faster than AGP anyway.
... yet

AGP 1X wasn't much faster than PCI at the time either. Not many people would want to be using a vanilla PCI card nowadays either.

It's just the way of things...

Knotian
10-12-2004, 03:35 PM
I have to agree with the people who say futureproof is impossible. You greatest concern should be 'current function'.

One of the battles I have fought in both the private and public sector is the quest for "latest and greatest". The individual, or company, would be better served if their decisions to upgrade were only made on changing function. You buy the best you can afford to do a specific function and don't worry about things until the function changes. I've just been working with graphics a couple of months and sure, I'd like to upgrade, but my current 'function' is to gain knowledge and experience with a given set of tools. My laptop is fine for this. Later -- maybe.

One other point,from a business view - computer equipment has moved from the 'capital' to 'commodity' or 'expense' realm. This basically means that, because of the dynamics of the environment you should not be planning on using the equipment past the current environment.

Novakog
10-13-2004, 06:10 AM
While I agree with you to a certain extent, that your technology will never be the newest, that does not mean it will be obsolete. I absolutely think computers can be "futureresistant" (futureproof implies that it would always be usable for everything 10 years in the future). I bought a Dell Dimension 8100 about 3.5 years ago. I never upgraded it once for 2 years, in which I got some more RAM and a new graphics card. During those two years, I continued to play current computer games, I used extremely intensive software (Maya) and so on. For the 1.5 years since that upgrade, the only thing I've touched was a new sound card. Only NOW did I just get a new computer (well, build a new computer), about a month ago, and my old Dell is still good for pretty much everything. I haven't even overclocked it. It's AGP 4x!

Sure, PCIE is here, but for software to utilize that bandwidth (as someone said) will be a LONG time. DDR2, likewise - RAM doesn't really need THAT much speed improvement. It helps, but not nearly as much as a better processor or graphics card. LCDs are coming out now with super fast response times, they're coming down in price, and hopefully they'll increase resolution density (i.e. 1600x1200 on less than 20 inch), but I have a 5 year old CRT that's still really good! I don't experience any problems with it, run it at 75 hz at 1600x1200, and I don't experience flickering, and everything is high quality.

Even with my new computer (and, I have to brag about it ;)) - S939 FX-53, MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum, 6800 Ultra, a GB of 2-3-2-5 3200 RAM (you can't get higher than 3200 for AMD64s), a dual layer all format DVD burner, Audigy 2 ZS, the whole thing (been saving up for it since I got my Dell), it won't be the best thing there is in a couple months, but I don't care. Why? Because it probably won't be for a year before I stop running my games at 1600x1200 with 4xAA and 8xAF, and longer before I stop running them at 1600x1200. I used to not even run my games at 1152x864, and I didn't care back then. I don't care if my machine is not the best thing in a month or two, or even now, because it will be more than enough for years to come.

EDIT: Typo

GregHess
10-13-2004, 11:00 AM
The only thing that can be future proofed is the dummy object sitting in the chair. :)

As they say in autocrossing, nothing is greater then seat time or driver training. Improve yourself, and any investment in additional mods/hardware will greatly multiply in usefulness.

You'd be amazed how long you can get by with a K6-2 450 and a Geforce1 if you just learn how to be a minimalist modeler and use the various viewport tools to minimalize the amount of viewport clutter your dealing with. Things like GI, 3s, and advanced molecular atomic displacement aren't really necessary in a day to day basis...of course their nice, its neat to see how your model of a wooden stick looks all fleshlike with cool light beams refracting through it.

Just an observation more then anything else...it almost seems as computer hardware scales up, artists become lazier and lazier. The computers aren't actually getting any faster, just the artist is increasing the ability to click more options on, spend less time fine tuning a model, etc.

The cleanest meshes I've ever seen have been built on slow computers. Why? Cause they couldn't handle high poly with luggin everything to hell.

Hrm it seems I haven't had my coffee yet so I'm randomly venting. Oh well.

lots
10-13-2004, 01:50 PM
Just an observation more then anything else...it almost seems as computer hardware scales up, artists become lazier and lazier. The computers aren't actually getting any faster, just the artist is increasing the ability to click more options on, spend less time fine tuning a model, etc.

The same can be said for the coders who write our software ;)

Simon
10-13-2004, 06:04 PM
The same can be said for the coders who write our software ;)
Amen to that!

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