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DYNAMIX2
10-07-2004, 06:04 AM
I'm a graphic designer in distress. Iím currently in the market for a notebook. It will mostly be used for graphic design and presentations but, I as well want it for gaming (I get bored during classes). I was looking into a 15Ē or 17Ē powerbook with all the goodies or alienware between a MJ-12or area-51m. With some researching, Iíve read postís from other members that thereís not much difference between Mac or PC for graphic design. So my question is what I should get myself into. Iíve searched and searched and searched for some advice but truly have not found anything convincing. So, hopefully starting my own thread will give me the advice and help I need to get a respectable, reliable and powerful notebook. Your advice will be truly appreciated!</SPAN>

Rabid pitbull
10-07-2004, 06:34 AM
Really a personal choice here unless a certain application you want is only available on one platform. I have heard some lackluster comments about alienware in the past though, might be better with a different maker on the pc side. In the end it should come down to which you are most comfortable with.

alanmac
10-07-2004, 10:04 AM
As has been said it's a personal choice but also how serious are you about your career and future?

If this is a tool to serve you in the progress of your career and future - that should take priority not the fact you can play games on the thing.

Sorry to sound stuffy but you can always buy a gameboy or consule if you like playing games.

Buying a machine or asking your parents to buy a machine on the basis you need it for your work but although it's not the best option for that it is for games is taking a somewhat shortsighted view of your future.

What does your course tutors recommend? If it's graphics there will be a preference for an Apple based machine. This does not mean you should automaticaly buy one, most graphic programs are available and work fine on Windows and Mac.

You will however find when seeking employment the graphics studios will be a majority of Apple based machines. This is related to a historical use rather than whats best now.

Years ago the graphic programs used in design and print were only available in industry standard on the Apple platform so companies brought Apple. After training to use these they continued, upgrading, buying Apple again so as not to lose time in retraining, new software licenses etc. Time is money and money is what keeps businesses going.

Also the printers used by studios etc. did not want difficulties created by cross platform problems so also brought Apple. Things have changed and now Windows based solutions are also used but you will still find the majority use Apple in graphic design.

If you want to reduce your risk of problems finding work, speaking the same "language" as most of the graphic design industry choose Apple but the use and growth of Windows you ignore at your peril. Certainly in the world of 3D your best option is to know both.

We live in an every changing world so what worked and was the standard today may not be so in five, ten years time.

Finally, at the end of the day this is a tool just as pens, paper and magic markers were a few years ago, your skill and talent is the thing that will get you on in this career. Technology is not a subsitute but an enhancement to your skills.

Good luck and enjoy, it's great work to be involved in.

Alan

cosmari
10-07-2004, 11:21 AM
Personally I can only tell you about my experience with a Powerbook.
I use a 15inch Powerbook 1 ghz, 1 gig ram, and have had it for about 2 years.
I mainly use Freehand and Photoshop, and sometimes Flash. I can honestly tell
you that it handles quite large files with ease and speed.

I have needed technical support once, when a CD got stuck in the drive, however
that might have been me not being careful.

It is extremely reliable and the battery life is fairly good too
My only complaint is that it only has 2 USB ports.

stephen2002
10-07-2004, 01:05 PM
I am personally a PC person but for laptops those Macs are really nice, assuming that all of the software that you want to run on them will run on them.

Carrying the mac won't be too much trouble, carrying one of those alienware laptops will be like caring a few bricks in your backpack plus they are built for preformance so their battery life will only be a few hours.

Generally it is a bad idea to play games in class...everybody sitting behind you noticies plus whoever is teaching generally notices that you are failing to look up and might randomly ask you a question.

allenatl
10-07-2004, 01:10 PM
I have to agree with everything alanmac said. If your main usage is for graphic design, then go with the Mac. That's what the studios and printers still prefer.

TheNeverman
10-07-2004, 02:45 PM
I have to agree with everything alanmac said. If your main usage is for graphic design, then go with the Mac. That's what the studios and printers still prefer.
What are you basing that on? I work for a large publications company and we use both Mac and PC (with a 2-to-1 ratio of Pc over Mac).

n8

Mantat
10-07-2004, 02:56 PM
As a previous owner of a PB12", I can only agree with the others. The powerbook really rules the laptop market IF they have all the software you need. The main advantage of the pb over the other pc laptop is:

- light & slim and still powerfull enough
- good battery
- OSX is sometimes more compatible to a windows network than computer running windows!
- less likely to have virus & lose everything
- look cool
- I like the keyboard setup
- the current promotion where you can get a PB and an iPod with a big rebate
- the PB has a lot of connector: FW, USB, video out, etc.. that some pc dont have
- not made out of plastic...

IF you really need a PC, forget Alienware, look at IBM or Toshiba (IBM being my fav of the two). They make solid machine that can get the job done. Dont forget that when getting a laptop, you dont want something that will break the first time you drop it on the floor (yes, it will eventually happen) so metalic casing is a nice touch.

alanmac
10-07-2004, 02:59 PM
What are you basing that on? I work for a large publications company and we use both Mac and PC (with a 2-to-1 ratio of Pc over Mac).

n8


And what are you basing yours on, the company you work for or the graphic design industry as a whole?

allenatl
10-07-2004, 03:04 PM
What are you basing that on? I work for a large publications company and we use both Mac and PC (with a 2-to-1 ratio of Pc over Mac).

Based on working with 2d art files for and from printers and graphic companies on a daily basis. Sure, there are plenty of companies out there using Windows PC's as their main choice for graphics. Just giving you info based on my daily experience and as I said alanmac's comments about how the industry standard evolved summed it up better than I could.
If the original post had said that his main focus was 3d, then I would have recommended a PC over a Mac for similar compatibility (and speed) reasons.

Balusilustalu
10-07-2004, 04:23 PM
Wow.. no trolling from Jdex and Imashination yet? There is hope for this forum after all. :)

Anway, let's get to the point..

PC will give you power over comfort.
Mac will give you comfort over power.

That's as simply as I can put it.

To elaborate a bit, if I was doing a lot of CPU/GPU heavy tasks (rendering, shifting around millions of polys, etc.) I'd get one of the Dell M60's (or better yet a desktop) and put up with the quirkiness of Windows and reap the benefits of faster performance (whilst praying it holds together and doesn't do something 'Windows-esque').

As for graphic design, I'd say definately go with a Mac. My experience has been that a Mac is simply more reliable. It just works and makes sense. This is what I primarily mean when I say comfort. All speed differences aside, I generally feel I am more productive on OSX than under Windows.

If you stand back and look at the greater picture you will see that Macs still are in the majority in the graphic design industry, regardless of what one individual's personal experience might be. It's a heritage thing largely.

Ask yourself what's more important, your games or your work. I think mixing these two for maximum results on either is always going to be a compromise (something I personaly dislike). Get a handheld console instead. I have a nice NEC PC-Engine GT myself for gaming on the go (how retro can you get :) ). Or how about running Mame, available on both platforms and guaranteed to give you a better gaming experience than what most contemporary developers put out these days. ;)

Hope this helps. Let us know what you decide.

DanSilverman
10-07-2004, 05:13 PM
I work on a graphics workstation that I built myself (a PC) and I have never had a laptop/notebook until recently. I live in Israel, but I had to go to the USA with my wife to help my mother-in-law sell her house and all that is associated with that. She is in her upper 70's. We were going to be in the USA for 5 weeks and I could not afford to be off of work all that time. I also did not want to take my workstation and 21" monitor with me :) . So, I did my research and bought a laptop.

I ended up getting a customized Area-51 laptop from Alienware and I can tell you that I am extremely pleased with it. As I was doing the research I thought, at first, that they were a bit expensive. But as I looked the system over, I found that they were more then competative and, depending on what you put into the system, were, in many cases, much less expensive. My current setup has 2 GB of RAM, a 3.0 GHz CPU and an nVidia 5700 Go video card with 128 MB. This machine plays games great! But I did not purchase the laptop to play games. It runs both 3D Studio MAX and Photoshop with no problems ... as a matter of fact, it runs them better than on my workstation at home (mainly because the laptop's CPU is hyperthreaded and the one at home is not).

So, with the Alienware laptop you can have the best of both worlds ... gaming and graphic art creation.

BTW - The company is very professional to deal with. Everything from the box the system was shipped in to the very components themselves were top quality. And the extras are awesome. I can run TV in or out on this machine (a standard option with Alienware laptops) and all that other jazz, so using this laptop for presentations is a breeze.

I can fully and faithfully recommend an Alienware laptop.

And, no, I don't work for them or have any affiliation with them :) .

jscott
10-07-2004, 05:46 PM
Dan: I'm curious how long the battery lasts on that 3 ghz Alienware. When running off the battery does the processor throttle down to conserve power?

Not sure how much of an issue it still is today but there was a time when the P4 chips in laptops ran at a much slower speed off the battery. Does anyone know if this still occurs with the current mobile P4's.

Then you have the Pentium M chips. Which run at a lower clock speed natively. What are the Pentium M's up to now...like 1.5-1.7 mhz or something. If I remember correctly the Pentium M systems have much greater battery life.

I'm sure I remember that the Mac G4 laptops always run at full clock speed even on the battery. I don't remember exacly but I think the G4 laptops will run something like 4-4.5 hours on a charge.

I'm not trying to say Mac is better than PC or whatever. Just pointing out that you may want to decide whether you want a portable workstation that may need to be plugged in alot or can you sacrafice some processing power for longer battery life.

-jscott

Saurus
10-07-2004, 06:00 PM
Dan: I'm curious how long the battery lasts on that 3 ghz Alienware. When running off the battery does the processore throttle down to conserve power?

Not sure how much of an issue it still is today but there was a time when the P4 chips in laptops ran at a much slower speed off the battery. Does anyone know if this still occurs with the current mobile P4's.

Then you have the Pentium M chips. Which run at a lower clock speed natively. What are the Pentium M's up to now...like 1.5-1.7 mhz or something. If I remember correctly the Pentium M systems have much greater battery life.

I'm sure I remember that the Mac G4 laptops always run at full clock speed even on the battery. I don't remember exacly but I think the G4 laptops will run something like 4-4.5 hours on a charge.

I'm not trying to say Mac is better than PC or whatever. Just pointing out that you may want to decide whether you want a portable workstation that may need to be plugged in alot or can you sacrafice some processing power for longer battery life.

-jscott
My laptop is a 3.06 and when i work on Maya, I use the full power. I also work on illustrator and indesign for my other stuff, and when I work with these application I have a utility that lets me control what percentage of my processor I want to use using a slider. It can give me an extra hour.

Somebody did a poll and they found 80 percent of the time laptops are used plugged to a wall. This is so true...every time I go to a coffee shop, Iím fighting with other laptop users for wall plugs. And thatís with PC and Mac laptops!

Saurus

DanSilverman
10-07-2004, 06:14 PM
Dan: I'm curious how long the battery lasts on that 3 ghz Alienware. When running off the battery does the processore throttle down to conserve power?
Frankly, I have not run the machine from full to empty on the battery. I bought it to run it off of electricity at my mother-in-law's house and to use (eventually) for client presentations. Therefore, I was not as concerned with battery life.

I did run it for about an hour doing the typical things I do (surf the net, model in MAX, skin in Photoshop, etc) and after about an hour I was at 76%. The would indicate that I would get about 4 hours of life out of the battery if I continued to work the same way. I also bought a second battery. This is because I will be flying back to Israel and, between the two planes, it will be about 14 hours of flying. I might get a bit of recharging in the airport, though :) .

As far as the "processor throttle" this is controlled by an application that allows you to determine how the battery power is used. You have basic settings like "laptop" or "workstation", etc and then you can customize things. You can also turn down screen brightness and this will also save on battery power. So, there are some things you can do to preserve your battery power.

DYNAMIX2
10-07-2004, 06:25 PM
Well, I'm still undecided. I mean Mac's and OSX are great operating systems BUT, (and I hate to say this) it's a PC world. Now with that in mind does not mean I'm going to buy a PC notebook. I just want something I can work and have fun with. I was reading and most of the top games can't run on OSX. So I ask myself this?. Whatís the difference in a top notch PC notebook VS a Top Notch powerbook.



With Alienware I get a P4 with 3.2GHz, 800MHz FSB, 2.5MB L3 Cache
1 GB of RAM and NVIDIA Quadro FX Go1000 Module with 128MB DDR
Hitachi 60GB 7200 RPM ATA100 with 8MB Cache



Apple offers a 1.5GHz PowerPC G4 512K L2 cache
1 GB of RAM and ATI 128MB of DDR SDRAM
80GB hard drive operating at 5,400 rpm
and one thing I like about apple is it has the DVD/CD-RW superdrive internal not external, less to carry around.

Now by the looks of this, it looks like AW can handle both graphic design and gaming. But I donít know as much as some of you do. So once again, Iím undecided and desperate. But I will continue to read your comments because I sure hell donít know what I'm getting myself into. Oh, theres also different types of LCD's (WUXGA, TFT(Apple), Etc...). Whis is the way to go in this catagory?

P.S. How about IBM Notebooks?

Schwinnz
10-07-2004, 06:47 PM
I'd say get the Alienware.

It's gonna be a lot faster in Illustrator and Photoshop and you can still play on it (like you want) and even make some 3d.

alanmac
10-07-2004, 06:58 PM
[QUOTE=DYNAMIX2]Well, I'm still undecided. I mean Mac's and OSX are great operating systems BUT, (and I hate to say this) it's a PC world. with. I was reading and most of the top games can't run on OSX.

What world are we talking about here. Yes if you go into retail shops or what most people have in their home it's Windows but I thought this purchase was a step along the path of your chosen career not an excuse to buy a glorified games consule.

Get your priorities right. Sure Windows will do the job, suprisingly enough it's what I earn my living with every day using, but if I was in your position I'd be leaning towards Apple.

If you can't discipline yourself to work in the time you are at lessons in college and want to play games God help you if you every get into a commercial studio!

Don't play the numbers game too much either, different processors, different operating system. Can't directly compare hardware like that.

DanSilverman
10-07-2004, 07:01 PM
...and even make some 3d.
It's not "even make some 3D" ... its, certainly make some 3D. My Area-51 laptop runs MAX better than my current workstation (mainly because of a hyperthreaded CPU).

With Alienware I get a P4 with 3.2GHz, 800MHz FSB, 2.5MB L3 Cache

1 GB of RAM and NVIDIA Quadro FX Go1000 Module with 128MB DDR

Hitachi 60GB 7200 RPM ATA100 with 8MB Cache

As with most places, you can customize the laptop to get the parts you want. BTW, I think the Alienware laptops come with the nVidia 5600Go or 5700Go video cards in them. To save a bit of money you can drop down from the 3.2 GHz CPU to the 3.0. There is not that much difference in speed to justify the price hike (IMO). If you need a 60 GB hard drive then that is fine. If not, then you can downgrade to save even more money or upgrade if you need more space.

Whatís the difference in a top notch PC notebook VS a Top Notch powerbook.
I would do some research on the subject. Frankly, I am not sure. I am betting that this is nothing more than a name to get you to buy something :) . Notebook, laptop, powerbook ... bah. Look at the components that make up the system and see what gives you the most bang for the buck for whatever you want to do. Then go with that system.

I spent about a month researching systems before I landed with Alienware. I am glad I got one, but that is me.

DYNAMIX2
10-07-2004, 07:14 PM
[QUOTE=alanmacWhat world are we talking about here. Yes if you go into retail shops or what most people have in their home it's Windows but I thought this purchase was a step along the path of your chosen career not an excuse to buy a glorified games consule.


Alanmac, youíre absolutely right, but remember this. Your notebook should be your home away from home. Meaning it should be able to run and do the things you do on a workstation. Right now I do most of my projects at home on my PC and just transfer the information onto the Mac I use at school. Most business offer Mac workstation on locations so in reality all I would have to do is transfer my information.

alanmac
10-07-2004, 07:35 PM
The recommendation for using a Windows based laptop put forward by some refer to 3D in recommending their choice, which is not my understanding of the course involved, it's graphic design, so the speed of it in Max etc I think has no bearing in this instance.

Okay so lets take it you still cannot make up your mind given the various opinions and experience put forward, lets try another way.

Get hold of a copy of a graphics industry magazine (we have Campaign in the UK although I have not seen it for years) or trade newspaper, even your local newspaper, look for situations vacant and any graphic designer positions, what are the qualifications, experience required within the advertised jobs using what programs and training you are undertaking. Does it happen to say "must have ** years Photoshop, Quark, Illustrator MAC experience" or "must be MAC/ experienced." What do we see ?

Even telephone a few local graphic design studios see what they say, what they use. They won't bite your head off, there just people after all, and you may be so good one day they'll want to employ you.

If it's 3D then its a different perspective and in turn you may not be on the right course at college for that.

alanmac
10-07-2004, 07:52 PM
[ Most business offer Mac workstation on locations so in reality all I would have to do is transfer my information.[/color]


No, in reality you have to be up to speed working all the time on the platform they have that is your work tool. Go home and play on your PC if you want but at work they'll expect you to know not only the programs but the operating system fully and use it quickly without problems, Mac or Windows or even Linux.

Oh I do it this way at home on my PC but how do I do it here on your Mac won't go down well after a while. Or, it didn't look those colours on my PC at home , the client won't mind will they?

Sure learn both it won't do you any harm, in fact it will stand you in good stead but make sure the one you earn your living from is the one you know best.

Why do you think your college has Macs on your course, if you believe the opinion PC's are much faster, cheaper. Is that not a clue. After all the college has only so much funding.

I'm banging my head against a brick wall here I can see it. You just want a machine you can play games on anywhere obviously, and are looking for us to back up your choice so the poor suckers stumping up the cash can be told "look this is what they say I need" Cough up.

DYNAMIX2
10-07-2004, 08:35 PM
Well, right now it looks like Mac. I get student discounts, and a great deal on a printer. What's the deal with different types of LCD's (WUXGA, TFT(Apple), Etc...). Which is the best way to go in this catagory?

Rabid pitbull
10-07-2004, 09:20 PM
I knew this thread would bring out the fanboys.

JDex
10-07-2004, 09:34 PM
Wow.. no trolling from Jdex and Imashination yet? There is hope for this forum after all. :)

Anway, let's get to the point..

PC will give you power over comfort.
Mac will give you comfort over power.

That's as simply as I can put it.

LOL! Is that what you call it. Okay, well since you have clearly made the point I always make "Pick Your Poison"... then we can troll together.

I look for power, it is faster for me because I can easily get comfortable with anything (even insults). If you are unable to get comfortable with thinking about your machine, and are willing to take the massive performance hit in "most" apps... then you are a Mac candidate, plain and simple.

Consider the thread trolled... I guess... mm-hmmm... right :rolleyes:

alanmac
10-07-2004, 10:01 PM
If you are unable to get comfortable with thinking about your machine


JDex

What do you mean by this statement?

Alan

JDex
10-07-2004, 10:30 PM
Preventing virusses, by actually thinking if you should open the attachment from the person you don't know.

Preventing spyware, by actually avoiding sites that have big flashing banners that say "click here, you won!", pRoN sites and clicking on boxes that say "Click yes if you want to download free movies".

Learning how to optimize your machine for maximum performance and the least downtime.

Actually thinking once a week, should I maybe do 15min of maintenance to prevent 20 hours of downtime 6 months from now.

Considering new technolgies as they become available (or affordable) and not when the mothership tells you "that technology is okay now, here buy a whole new machine!"

Considering competing models of hardware upgrades to come up with a rational, logical conclusion about if it will benifit you, instead of having what some "group of individuals" with their own motives telling you which specific model is "best for you"...

I digress...

peanuckle
10-07-2004, 10:39 PM
I own a IBM Thinkpad T42/p. It is a great computer and handles XSI and Lightwave very well. One thing that the IBM computer have over apple that I know is durability. Thinkpads are made towards business people . Which means they are going to get the crap kicked out of them(the "airbag" feature of the thinkpad is nice and can save your butt bigtime). Apple computer ding and scratch really easy. Which kind of sucks but you can get cool sleeves and products to protect it. If you want to play games on your laptop I personally wouldnt get a mac. But if you mainly are going to do graphic design I would get a mac.

What you have to think about is.

Which operating system?

Windows or OSX (linux runs good on thinkpads I know but it isnt good for graphic design)

How many games are you wanting to play?

Which apps are you going to run?
If you are more of a flash and photoshop guy the powerbook is a little better choice IMO.

How is the service support?

How hard are you going to treat your computer?

What are all of your friends using?
Think of all of these things when making your final choice.

pea~

alanmac
10-07-2004, 11:33 PM
Hi JDex

saw your last email, is that your answer to my question ? You said and I quote "If you are unable to get comfortable with thinking about your machine, and are willing to take the massive performance hit in "most" apps... then you are a Mac candidate, plain and simple."

So how does all you just said match in with the other statement and as an explanation. I've read other emails of yours and is obvious that you have a thing about Macs but in the context of your last email this would seem the opposite in many cases.

Viruses, and spyware is a real problem with Windows, and the suggestions you make are what any sensible computer user should avoid doing regardless of operating system. How does not wanting to worry about opening emails with viruses, getting spyware on your computer from dodgy sites, having to maintain your computer make you an ideal Mac candidate? Also not wanting to worry about that sort of stuff being somehow wrong.

I've not known many if any Mac users complain of a virus on their computer.

Sorry mate, don't understand the logic of your original statement and the reply given.

Are you saying Macs are for people to stupid or to lazy to learn everything about their computer and it's operating system and how to use it. Want it kept easy and simple?

I think they would argue that to them what they do with the computer is more important, the less the machine and it's OS gets in the way of the task they want to do the better.

I'm really fed up with Mac fanatics who won't admit the fact that Windows is the most popular computer operating system in the world, and has moved on from the days of Win 3.1, and they copied the Macs. Never said it was the best, just the most popular, does not make it right either.

I'm also fed up with Windows fanatics not admitting the fact that the vast majority of graphic studios use Macs because at a time when Dos /Windows was crap in comparison, didn't have the applications, Mac was easier to use and rightly became the machines and OS of choice and as such built up a large user base within that market sector. They have a well deserved and earned loyalty amongst their users.

The work produced on them is still good, better than ever before. Would not creatively be any better made on a Windows machine.

As creative people we should be looking at our skills and improving those not making excuses for our work because of the computers we use.

In the days of pencils, marker pens, layout pads and airbrushes we didn't argue about what brand we used or blamed these on the shortcomings of our work. Inadequate talent or skill could not hide or try to hide behind technology.. .. but now I digress.

Just wish threads like this didn't turn into little boys pissing contests.

imashination
10-08-2004, 12:03 AM
Wow.. no trolling from Jdex and Imashination yet? There is hope for this forum after all. :)

I don't troll, I point out the facts when someone starts spouting off marketting BS as if it were the truth. This hasn't happened yet and noone has thrown out their opinion as fact.

Oh, and for your info I have a mac sat on my right and a pc sat on my left.

alanmac
10-08-2004, 12:35 AM
Oh, and for your info I have a mac sat on my right and a pc sat on my left.

So it's a threesome tonight then, with you the meat in the sandwich. ;~)

JDex
10-08-2004, 04:30 AM
Alanmac...

Sorry if my response was not entirely clear... I was in a hurry and should have just waited.

If you want the best performance from a "power" angle, you might just have to learn a little bit of basic computer protocol, options, processes and maintenance.

If you are unwilling to do the very small amount of work and think about your computing habits as a business practice requiring diligence and a tad bit of study; willing to take a small to potentially extreme "hit" on performance; willing to be locked into specific hardware options that you have no say in beyond your first day purchase then the Mac route is likely for you.

It's not an accusation of laziness, nor stupidity... it is a choice... concious or unconcious. I personally can mentally work very fast on both platforms... I own both and have used both a great deal. There are tasks where the Mac platform is optimal... color is one of them... however... throughout my experiences (which are quite robust) the Mac is a slower solution.

I have (recently) done my own fair testing with the latest greatest Mac (well second greatest) in a very carefully thought out use-test... in this test, the machine that Macintosh would have you believe is the greatest thing in computing history, falls flat when compared to 2 year old technology... and is very much rivaled be 4-5 year old technology.

As to seeming to frame me in the "not admitting the fact that the vast majority of graphic studios use Macs", I have never made such a claim... most did use Mac, and most still do... but "most" seems to quickly be turning into many, and to a larger extent are turning into "also".

I have and always will say pick your poison... neither is perfect... one is superior when it comes to hardware speed but requires you to spend some time and brain-cycles to operate and maintain it, the other lacks in the raw horsepower and growth department, but makes for simple and pretty use. This is not even mentioning the disparity in cost vs. performance.

I know there are people who have an impression that the tool makes the artist. I am not sure if you are just making that statement as well, or incinuating that I feel this way, so I'll assume the former. I can do the exact same work on both, without question or debate. I will leave my own artistical merits out of it, because most of my pro work is internal NDA'd and not publically visible, and my studies work is either me dabbling in new medias, or experimenting... For me the stark difference is, with what tools am I faster, more productive or less frustrated.

In conclusion, I have nothing against Macs, they just are not for me and I try to offer my differing, yet civil, opinion on the subject matter when the "Mac Zombies" come out and play. Take it as trolling, take it as devil's advocate, take as a jiggly bowl of green jello... I'll take it as it comes.

Pick your poison, drink your tea, and be at peace that you made the right decision for yourself.

TheNeverman
10-08-2004, 05:35 AM
And what are you basing yours on, the company you work for or the graphic design industry as a whole?
There was no opinion in my post - what are you reading? I was simply stating fact in rebuttal to your canvas statement that graphics companies=Mac...

=)
n8

AirbORn
10-08-2004, 06:34 AM
I hate to say this but I am a PC guy, and coming from a graphic design background I say go with the MAC because you'll find that a lot of printers use MAC and when your work is coming from a MAC platform I find colour management/fonts/file formats are a lot easier to manage, and prevent you from any errors which you'll find happen more often from PC related work.

Sadly I hate how there are different platforms for computers, and I wish that there was one universal platform so that everyone could be happy, and all websites could work on all computers the way you want them too! :) BUt you can't.

To finsih up, get a MAC it will save you a headach several times down the road.

alanmac
10-08-2004, 09:37 AM
Hi JDex

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for any confusion and possible offence, the last part of my email was not aimed at you at all, but as you say a statement. I digressed, as we all do some time, but nonetheless relevant to the original posters question.

Let me digress further ....

The problem of course with any open forum, not just this one, is by it's very nature open to everybody who can type an email.

That is not a bad thing and I would be the last person to stop freedom of speech, but this does mean a very wide range of people read and submit to this forum, from the students, hobbyist, hard working freelancers, through to very qualified professional people.

You need no qualification to pass an opinion but you should be prepared to honour the rules of this professional forum and be prepared to justify any statement you make.

Nothing wrong with a bit of humour injected in there now and then either, but the slagging off of other people and the various operating systems gets a little tiresome and only dilutes the authority of this site and is a disservice to the good folk who work hard to maintain and bring this site to us.

I doubt very much if people would act in the same manner if face to face with the other participants rather than hidden behind a computer screen.

Again not comments aimed directly at you but just my opinion and observations of this forum.

I love the work I do, it's nothing great, and if I can help anybody along the way I'm only to pleased to do so. I'll climb down off my soap box now as I'm starting to feeling a bit dizzy.

All the best

Alan

alanmac
10-08-2004, 10:12 AM
There was no opinion in my post - what are you reading? I was simply stating fact in rebuttal to your canvas statement that graphics companies=Mac...

=)
n8

So you are challenging my statement that in general terms the Mac is still the most used operating system in graphic design studios, by saying because your company uses Windows I'm wrong.

Please read my email again, nowhere did I say that all studios use Macs or that Windows machines are not capable of creating artwork from the same programs available on both platforms, or that there are no Windows based graphic design studios, but for somebody starting a career in graphic design they should be aware that, rightly or wrongly, I make no judgement on OS, the predominant system in the graphic design studios is Apple. Before any confusion creates more emails I'm talking in the sense of 2D graphic design, Quark, Indesign, Photoshop, Illustrator.

3D is a whole different area and can take in so much it's difficult to be specific on what to use because of the big variations, the one man studio adding 3D to his skills for print illustration right through to the high end studio creating todays CG effects for motion pictures. I would certainly not pass comment on this area in regard to career advice on platform choice.

I can honestly say that in my years of experience, and I'm 52 soon, the vast majority of graphic design studios, advertising agencies etc I have been in, worked in and with, use Macs. Most advertisements in trade publications require within the job description "Mac experience".

I make no judgement to this being right or wrong it's just a fact of life, just the same as Windows is the most popular operating system in the world.

So are you saying your company using Windows makes my statement invaild?

Also to ensure I'm not labeled a Mac fanatic, in my area of work exhibition and display stand design, I use Windows, the programs I use are available and work great on both platforms and I've found people who do this kind of work are split between Windows and Mac.

Studios doing graphic design who undertake this area of work usually have Macs, contractors who build the stands that have studio facilities usually Windows. But there are always exceptions to the rules as they say.

Learn both may be the best idea, it works for me anyway.

All the best

Alan

TheNeverman
10-08-2004, 01:12 PM
I hate to say this but I am a PC guy, and coming from a graphic design background I say go with the MAC because you'll find that a lot of printers use MAC and when your work is coming from a MAC platform I find colour management/fonts/file formats are a lot easier to manage, and prevent you from any errors which you'll find happen more often from PC related work.

To finsih up, get a MAC it will save you a headach several times down the road.Again - I'm gonna have to chime in here. Color management is an issue on ALL platforms. Each operating system may deal with it differently - but an uncalibrated workflow is an uncalibrated workflow...

I only have 'some' experience with font issues - but OSX seems to have quite a few issues with font management, (mangling fonts both on screen and in print) - perhaps something fixed in .4?

And lastly file formats... If your working with the Adobe family (and even Quark) - all your graphics formats are interchangeable between platforms. Is there a particular type of file your refering to?

n8

allenatl
10-08-2004, 01:20 PM
Hey, DYNAMIX2, just remember that a recommendation doesn't mean that all else is crap.
People will always debate the productivity of each platform, but regardless of which one you choose, you'll have a useful tool and a powerful new toy.
Have fun and good luck with school, man.

TheNeverman
10-08-2004, 01:50 PM
So you are challenging my statement that in general terms the Mac is still the most used operating system in graphic design studios, by saying because your company uses Windows I'm wrong.
AlanNot at all... (though I do question where such statistics come from).

I'm simply showing that there does a exist a world where Mac dosen't have such a stranglehold on the graphics market. We 'do' still have and support Mac (because we need to support what our customers use). The hard fact is we receive more PC disks than Mac disks (as I mentioned - there's a 2:1 ratio of machines here)...

At the least, I thought you would find that number interesting, (considering we're the world's largest yearbook printer and these kid's will be going into the job market in the next few years).

=)
n8

AirbORn
10-08-2004, 03:48 PM
Again - I'm gonna have to chime in here. Color management is an issue on ALL platforms. Each operating system may deal with it differently - but an uncalibrated workflow is an uncalibrated workflow...

I only have 'some' experience with font issues - but OSX seems to have quite a few issues with font management, (mangling fonts both on screen and in print) - perhaps something fixed in .4?

And lastly file formats... If your working with the Adobe family (and even Quark) - all your graphics formats are interchangeable between platforms. Is there a particular type of file your refering to?

n8The reason they are an issue on all platforms is because your bringing in a alien colour profile, you usually have to match these up by running tests, which is usually what all printers do anyway, but when you are working with MAC native work, and then bringing it to another MAC computer to print, all your files are still calibrated the way they are suppose to, to most cases.

Fonts are the same deal, you'll run into less problems when your using a MAC and then going to another MAC, as long as you install the same fonts you used on your MAC onto the other, there will hardly be any problems. But, the PC is a nother issue, I have encoutered PC fonts that the MAC doesn't recognize which resulted in me having to delay printing by a day in order to figure out a substitute font. Also vice versa, there were MAC fonts that didn't work on the PC.

As for file formats, yes, they are interchangable, but there are still problems. Let me explain. When you save files on a PC you have to add the files extension at the end of your file name, where in most cases you don't when you are only going to be working on a PC. Usually you won't run into problems when you leave the file name without the .ext but you'll find that 2 days before your projects deadline, your files won't open at the printers MAC computer because you forgeting to add the file extension. Trust me, it happens mroe often then you think. :)

To sum up, all platforms have problems, but you'll find you'll have more problems when you start working between two platforms and have to resort to interchanging files.

AirbORn
10-08-2004, 03:55 PM
BTW, our studio uses MAC only for print related stuff, where as all of our multimedia and video related work is all done on PC. Another reason why PC to me is still worth being in studios, video and sound is a lot better and easier to work with on PC.

alanmac
10-08-2004, 04:26 PM
I agree the Mac does not have a stranglehold over the graphics industry, never implied it did, though some feel wrongly that it still does. I'm sure you read my posts carefully and see I've said there are people using Windows with the same programs to create graphic design. I've never argued or disagreed with the fact.

You will have no doubt have read, as I did, that the original poster does work on his Windows PC at home and takes it into school to transfer onto the Macs there. Another proof in point.

I am always interested in the different disciplines and industries that are involved in graphics.

I had such appalling career advice when I was at school that I didn't even know the huge world of commercial art existed till I'd left and took a job making stencils for a local screen printing company!!

Introduced into the studio I can remember to this day thinking "Why was I not told about this" Took me four years before I could get the chance to go back to college to take my Design for Print course and obtain my qualifications.

Up until then I thought the only way you could earn a living in art you had to go to art school, paint pretty pictures and sell them. Nothing from my art teacher at school other than fine art.

I don't really think I can add anything other than what I've already said in the way of advice and I'm certainly not going to spend time defending the Mac or for that matter the Windows OS.

So I'll wish you all well, keep making money, got to go - I've got jobs to do and when the "boss" says get on with them I'm not arguing with her !!

Keep pushing those pixels.

Alan

DYNAMIX2
10-08-2004, 05:08 PM
Another question regarding Mac OS. I heard a rumor that Tiger will only run on G5's. Is this true or will it be able to run on G4's as well? Second question, anyone know of the drop date for G5 powerbooks?

peanuckle
10-08-2004, 06:11 PM
Another question regarding Mac OS. I heard a rumor that Tiger will only run on G5's. Is this true or will it be able to run on G4's as well? Second question, anyone know of the drop date for G5 powerbooks?
Tiger is the 64-bit operating systems meaning it will only run on the G5. I havent heard any news on a G5 notebook. It would get REALLY REALLY hot.

DYNAMIX2
10-08-2004, 07:05 PM
Peanuckle, I actually called Mac after I posted that question and their representative said that yes Tiger will be able to run on G4 systems. He mentioned that if your system is running on Panther 10.3, Tiger will be able to be installed onto the system. But youíre not the only person I've heard that from and as soon as I get the chance, I'm going to call Apple one more time to confirm.

DanSilverman
10-08-2004, 07:44 PM
Since this thread is sort of split into two (one about getting a laptop and one about MACs and PCs), I don't feel so bad about posting an observation/question about MACs and PCs. :)

Some have indicated that the MAC is the most used (or more often used) in graphics studios. I once thought this as well. But statistics show that there are, by far, more PCs used world-wide than MACs. I don't have an accurate number (perhaps someone here does?), but I seem to remember something like 94% are PC based systems with the remaining percents being made up of MACs, Linux and other varients. If this is the case (and I stress that I don't have the figures) and IF graphics studios are using more MACs than PCs, then there must be very, very few graphics studios. Not only that, but there are also freelance graphics artists that work in CG professionally. If the MAC dominates (even by a percentage) in this area, then even CG freelancers must be a very small group. If the number combined (freelancers, studios and all other forms of CG) use more MACs than PCs then we CG artists are a small number indeed (especially considering that the remaining percentages include other OS's besides the MAC).

Now, the above is in no way scientific. Like I said, I don't have the numbers for how many of each machine/OS is being used. And, yes, CG artists are not the majority of PC users (not by far). Even so, not all MAC users are CG artists either. There are a ton of MACs in school systems. Apple has done a great job from the start getting their systems into schools and universities.

I think (and I have no numbers to back this up) that the usage of MAC to PC in the CG world is probably a lot more even then we think. The PC may even be getting the upper hand. I've been in several studios where there was never a MAC to be seen. I've been in others were there were one of each on each artist's desk.

I personally like the MAC. There is something about it and maybe that goes back to my humble beginnings on a simple Apple II+. Even so, I do all my work on a PC and the nature of my business is such that using a MAC would not be really possible. Whatever can be done on the MAC can be done on the PC and vice versa (when it comes to CG), but the shear number of programs, both freeware and the ones you pay for, that are available for the PC ... that is enough for me ... and the ability to build entire systems and configure them as I please ... another plus.

I like the MAC, but I am afraid I have swallowed the red pill and seen the reality (jk ;) )

peanuckle
10-10-2004, 04:37 PM
Peanuckle, I actually called Mac after I posted that question and their representative said that yes Tiger will be able to run on G4 systems. He mentioned that if your system is running on Panther 10.3, Tiger will be able to be installed onto the system. But youíre not the only person I've heard that from and as soon as I get the chance, I'm going to call Apple one more time to confirm.
My bad. I figured they were stressing the 64-bit part which only the G5's are. You probally will be able to install it and get most of the features. We will see whatg happens when it comes out.

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