HOW TO IMPROVE LIGHTWAVE (Tell us your ideas)

[tais]

hello roberto,
what about a HOW TO IMPROVE LIGHTWAVE: workflow?
cheers,

edit:

Thanks!!

[vonbon]

Voice activated tool selection. Its an idea

[Celshader]

Here's one that won't fit into any of those threads: LightWave needs better and more thorough documentation.

Here's a few examples of things NOT covered in the docs, that throw folks off:


Edge Z-Scale -- set it to 1 if you're using a high Zoom lens, to keep Edges from popping out of the model altogether. In other situations, try lowering it slightly to pull Edges towards the camera, for cleaner lines. Folks who don't know anything about Edge Z-Scale often complain about Edges not looking nice, or falling apart, or whatever...when it's not the Edges' fault. They're only doing what they're told to do.
NodeMatch (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=165416&page=2&highlight=nodematch) -- not covered at all in the docs, but potentially useful.
Bezier Handles in the Graph Editor and the ALT key -- you can hold down the ALT key to move each Bezier handle independently of its twin. This isn't covered in the HTML docs, and I'm not sure if the PDF file covers it, either. Two Maya guys recently complained to me that LightWave didn't have this feature, and as it turned out LightWave DOES -- it's just not documented.

[Guillermo]

What about something like "Paint Effects" in Maya... That would be awesome ;)

[marinello2003]

Currently, you need to buy plugins to get the renderer to do advanced stuff like SSS and smoothe bump specularity etc... This should all be integrated and should be easy to use. Look at this new renderer in development by nextlimit.

http://www.maxwellrender.com/

[Babaduca]

What about something like "Paint Effects" in Maya... That would be awesome Why not just use Maya?:)

But what would I add in lightwave?
Modeling - paint deform like in zbrush
UV setup - make the uv prjection editable. so you could "huge" the cylinder mapping more to the object and reduce editting time

Animation - would it be possible for lightwave to use the GPU vertex shader to accelerate defomation and dynamics?

Rendering - A Rib and rSl exporter would be wonderful

[iraklisan]

hi there.
there are many things that can be improved in LW, but it will be great if LW at last become 1 app.(not 2: layout + modeler). lot of users have problems with it.

sorry for my english

[Babaduca]

there are many things that can be improved in LW, but it will be great if LW at last become 1 app.(not 2: layout + modeler). lot of users have problems with it. Why? it's not distrupting producyivity. Even if you'r using a single app like maya or max most people somtimes do their modeling in silo or Modo and animate in motionbuilder or messiah and then bring it in to maya and max just for the rendering. And on the technical stand point. seperate app makes developing new tools more easyer.

[coffeefery]

Regarding the issue on 2 application (layout and modeler), I think it's not really a problem. Yes, some people may not like the way LW handles it (similar to how LW's UI is 'strange' and 'awkward'). I initially couldn't understand why LW needs to have 2 apps when 1 should be easier to use when I switched from program X to LW. However, as I start getting down to using it, I realized that 2 apps do have its advantages, and most importantly, it helps the work schedule instead of bogging it down, thus reducing the wasted time and effort in production. Now, I don't want to think of the day when LW integrates them into 1...

Bottomline is, try to understand how the 2 apps work and voila, you can see its beauty :)

[sgreco]

The biggest problem I have with LW is not its functionality but rather its usefulness in the market. All of the software that I buy or browse to purchase that might utilize 3d models only take 3ds and Maya. Alot of software out there seems to cut out LW. If LW could do anything, it'd be to see to it that their extensions are included for import among the bigger name software. The reverse is also true. You need to be able to export to more file types used by more programs. Because if I need a model and turn to LW as a solution and it doesn't fill the need, Im forced to turn elsewhere.

[|Malc|]

It would be cool if you could use your mouse to grab a back drop image in moduler and move it to where you would like it to be insteed of playing with the numbers. If this is already a feture, please let me know how its done =D

[Primal]

One thing i would like to see improved is the way LW slows right down to a stand still when working on high poly models. Of course LW being seperated instead of integrated is great and i would definitely like it to stay that way something more needs to be done.

[medendog]

Light wave needs the ability to keyframe or animate every setting and every variable.
There are still setings in lightawave that are just set and that is how it is for the animation, but some of those settings would be cool if you could animate them or have them change over time.

[a_joke]

In Layout As You Go Through The Motions Add Plugin Here, Displacement There I Find It Annoying That It All Comes From The Same Window. Now Don't Get Me Wrong Too Many Windows Is Bad, But If I Want Motion Window Up And Ik Controller Window Up At The Same Time Shouldn't I Be Able To. I Just Wish I Could Have That Option Whether I Want Pop-ups Or Not.

[debashish]

hi all,

we(my company, our clients) are not upgraded to version 8 of lightwave yet.
so as far as i know about lightwave, it need a lot of plugins to do even a simple work, eg path animation.....http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/grin.gif, ..... just an example... and not to forget the keyframer.

it would be better if all the basic things becomes tha native of lightwave.
and work need to be done to improve the workflow.

-dEBASHISH dAS

[SplineGod]

What do you mean by path animation? What basic things do you think LW needs?

[Peter Pan]

my 2cents (although I think some folks have already mentioned this on several occasions): edge selectability/manipulation. Since I tried 'Wings', I miss this funcionality in LW very much.

[coremi]

I think a big thing we'll be Newtek will elaborate the existing tools with more options.

For example: Bevel should be like Bevel++; Schematic view should have at least basic option like HIDE, LOCK, change the wire color for 3,4 objects at once etc...

this are just to examples, and i really think a lot of people will be happy with some improvements on existing tools, make them work better with the other tools, not with free half unknown new tools, u have to get 2 books and 3 DVD to understand.

[toonafish]

I think a big thing we'll be Newtek will elaborate the existing tools with more options.

For example: Bevel should be like Bevel++; Schematic view should have at least basic option like HIDE, LOCK, change the wire color for 3,4 objects at once etc...

this are just to examples, and i really think a lot of people will be happy with some improvements on existing tools, make them work better with the other tools, not with free half unknown new tools, u have to get 2 books and 3 DVD to understand.

I agree completely. There are plenty of features that are just sitting there catching dust because they are half baked and don't play nice with the other plugins or features. And there's plenty or room for workflow improvement.
Lightwave already feels like an old car that takes me where I want to go, but I need to push it up the hill regularly and it's is almost falling apart. So let's not add more gimmicks, but fix the tires, get rid of the rubbish and polish it up. Some examples from what I run into in Layout a lot:

-Effector, could be very powerfull if it would properly work with bones or any other deformer. Also nice if there could be some more primitive shapes added.Great for fast muscles, or making an object keep it's volume with bone deformations..

-Sock Monkey, a forgotten tool that could be great if someone would revamp it and make it work on top of all other deformers. Heck we'd have clusters.

-Improve LScript, it's ridiculous how many commands are not accessible by Lscript in Layout.Would be nice to have something like Lscript commander or another macro feature in Modeler.

-Displacements like the bend, taper, and shear tool in Layout should work properly on top of bones. They do work with bones, but not localy which practicly makes them useless with other deformers.They would work so great on cartoony characters.

-Make it possible to set after, or before SubPatch in any plugin panel. The way it works now you sometimes can't combine displacement plugins because one needs the SubPatch order to be set to last and the other doesn't work if you do. Very Bad !!

-Make it possible to parent bones to any object, and to have an object use bones from several objects at the same time. If on top of that, it would be possible to have bones deform an object not localy, but in the way a lattice deformer does, we could create our own lattices from a bone cage and use that on top of the normal bone deformation. Neat !

-Make the points on splines used as paths in Layout animatable with everything, also bones.

-When "Match Goal Orientation" is enabled the rotational values are no longer accessible for other motion modifiers. It's Silly this still is not fixed.

-When I set rotational limits to an object or bone, these limits should also be obeyed when local or world coords are used. Would also be nice to be able to set Translation and Scale limits.

-Dynamics could be improved but what would help a lot if they would work with endomorphs or other displacements without any weird workarounds.

-If it's possible to create a path from a point on an object that has Dynamics like cloth applied. Why can't I just constrain a object to that point ?? We would have a poor mans point constraints which is great ! Coming to think of it, if Luxigons can see the polygon normal to create a light, why can't I access that information to parent an object to that same polygon after it's been deformed by bones ?? Just optimize it, and make the same possible on a frame by frame basis, and call it AniGon. Very powerfull stuff


-Improve EditFX, it's tedious to have to tweak, set the frame range and smoothen the motion every time you move some points. If SockMonkey would work properly, we could just add some weightmap clusters and animate those on top of the Dynamics and edit the envelopes in the Graph editor. Much better !

-Make it possible for sliders to access multiple object channels at once so we don't have to use an intermediate object and expressions, this silly MasterChannel or follower to accomplish this.

-Add an option to disable a child following the parents individial rotation, translation or scale channels. This way we don't have to use follower or expressions so much and it would simplify something like rigging a character a lot.

-Make the splinecontrol Control Points listen to motion modifiers, and add translation handles and the ability to use multiple splinecontrollers on top of eachother.Also make it work with other displacements like bones and weightmaps. Now if we'd have point constraints as mentioned before, and you could use multiple splines and set the splinecontrol to after bones we would have a very powerfull deformer for something facial animation. Now it looks sad compared to Shift_Splinetransform and Bezierbend. But those also don't work with endomorphs.

-Add more envelopes, at least gradients should be animatable. But it would be so cool to be able to animate bone strength, Rest Length, Limited Range etc. etc.

-Would be cool if the numeric input panel would show and accept World or local Coordinates input if that coord.system is used.

-Don't even get me started on the new Scene Editor. Now that needs a lot of work.

-Collapse the new and old timeline, it's just silly we need 2 timelines to be able to drag keyframes around

-Make Morph Mixer read new morphs automaticly or add a reload button. It's simply sad we have to remove and re-apply it to access new endomorphs. Heck, Pawel Olas' SmartMorph can do it, why doesn't MorphMixer ? Also add an After Bones feature so morphs for joints work properly.

-One thing that would speed up the renderer a lot is, if the way it handles multiple cpu's would be improved. Now all it does is split the image in two more pieces, and sometimes one CPU is just sitting there picking it's nose while the other is crunching away for a few more minutes. This is just a waste of CPU time.

-Make it possible to add, remove and edit plugins on multiple selected objects at once or at least make this a feature in the Scene Editor.

-If I clone an object like a Null or any other object, Layout should number them properly. At least internaly for geometry, so I don't get in trouble when I use expressions or MotionMixer on them. Now I have to save them to the HD with a unique name.

-make unseen by rays independent from Radiosity so you can have a GI sphere that does not influence your reflections.

-Add visiblity options like wireframe, shaded solid etc. to the object properties panel and Schematic view.

-Make it possible to select Lights, Objects and Cameras at the same time.

-Some settings can be changed on multiple selected objects, bones or lights and some you can't. You can't Exclude/Include objects from multiple selected lights at the same time or lights from objects, but you can change the color or type of light, You can change the strength and joint comp. on multiple selected bones, but you can't change the weightmap or rest length. This should work on all settings, and don't forget the shaders in the Surface panel !

-also add an Rest Pivot Translation and Scale, very convenient for rigs and recycling expressions.

-Make keyframes for MorphMixers selected endomorph channels visible and editable in the timeline.

-Add proper handles to the Path Tool, and IKbooster.

-Make it possible to convert an object to SubPatches in Layout, not just in modeler.

[UnknownArtist]

I have an idea that I think should play in to all 3d programs. Coming from a background in AutoCad, I am partial to the right click = repeat last command option. Not sure if any already do it but I believe LW as well as others would benefit from this option. I think it would Speed the modelling process up a lot.

If this is already possible then excellent, someone let me know how http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

[bardakos]

1. In every teture editor ... i wouldlike a smal "chain_link" button with an up and down arrow that locks the variables of XYZ in the scale texture i would be really helpfull for procedurals
not having to use null reference objects for every texture...
so if click and drag there u could resize the procedural ...

2.I would like to have on the textures layers panel the ablity to have a layer
to affect ALL of the below layers as an alpha or subdivide etc etc for example
so i u have a complex series of layers you could add one and mask them for eg.


well just two crazy thoughts...

also i would like a select connected feature that wold highlight a bounding box not all
the polys of a geometry i wanna select... :)

cheers.

[lardbros]

Right, i'm not going to/ or meaning to slate Newtek at all (i've just purchased it!!), but here's a few things i would like to see. None of us (well, some may) know what Newtek are actually working on, but it would be good to know. Surely there aren't going to be a huge amount of things that are unique and could be 'stolen' by other companies, but the things that they are in the process of doing would be cool to know about. I'm sure other companies do this.

Right, i reckon there should be some way to use the hub as a central system that uses just one chunk of RAM rather than Modeler and Layout using separate chunks. If the HUB could store all texture and object it would half the amount of RAM being used.

Not a huge amount of complaints really, just that many plugins, in Layout mainly, should be integrated either into the main interface or merged with similar tools. The same with modeller would be good. Get rid of the tools that no longer work with everything, Supershift also needs changing, it is very dodgy... and hates high poly selections. There would be no need to add extra tools, if the original one just included more options.

Anyway, this would be enough for anyone to manage, so i'll let Newtek get on with it... i'm certain they'll come up with something.

Oh, and an updated, sped up renderer would be incredible... along with Volumetrics etc. Hypervoxels are still beating alot of competition but they are getting old now... an update for speed and options would be nice too. (I reckon Newtek are working hard on rendering anyway, having got on board the guys from EI fame.)

[GregMalick]

Off the top of my head:

Increase speed and responsiveness - thereby improving workflow - especially rendering.
Improve (speed/accuracy) in clothFX/hardFX.
Integrate UV-painting functionality as in "BodyPaint".
Add creative modeling tools as seen in MODO & ZBrush.
Change Sasquatch-Lite to be Sasquatch in the base product.

LScript: Access to all mouse/keyboard functions and non-modal panels in Modeler.
LScript: Access to the FX parameters.
LScript: Establish a standardized way run any plugin with initialized values and implement this with any plugins shipped with LW.

Create a Test Plan for all major functionality that must work and make sure a releases passes the tests for PC/Mac before a release. Add all reported bugs into that Test Plan so future releases do not repeat past mistakes.

[panadar]

I look at these sections a lot. I like many of the suggestions I have seen so far. This kind of thread can be very risky because it can go downhill very fast. There are always going to be issues regardless of the 3d software that is used. I know this because I have friends who use other 3d software, and they look at Lightwave and give me many compliments on it's features. So I hope that this thread stays positive. I also hope that Newtek is reading these comments as well. I consider myself to be a relative newcomer to Lightwave. Even though I got into it around v4.0, I was out of it for along while. Even though I upgraded to v5.6, I didn't have as much time to use it as I wanted to have.

Now, I upgraded to v8 and I am learning it again. Definately more complex than v4!<g> I'm really glad I upgraded, and I'm really glad I chose to upgrade as opposed to going with another 3d software. Even though I have a HUGE amount of respect for other 3d software I was looking at (Maya, Softimage), i'm glad I chose to stick with Lightwave. My goal is to improve my 3d skills to the level of being 'very knowlegable'.

At any rate, I'll throw in my two cents on whatI would like to see in Lightwave. Please make sure that the instructions in the 'Help' sections are correct!! There have been a couple times when I've gone to the help section to see how to do something, and the instructions were incorrect. For example, I'm working on several spaceships and I needed to measure them in order to make sure they were properly scaled in relation to each other. I went to the 'Help' section. The instructions gave me the worng tab to look under. I was confused for a few moments until I happened to stumble on the correct tab. I had to write this down so that if I forgot, I could find that info again with no problems. It makes me wonder what else in the help section could be wrong. If you're a newbie like myself it makes learning the program harder. The other thing I would like to see is full-screen test renders. At the option for it. I remember this was the standard in v4.0. After that, the test renders were small screen only. However, my not getting full-screen test renders may be due to my own lack of knowlege about LW.

Another thing I would like to see improved is the renderer. Especially if there is an ability to use multiple cpus to develop one frame. However, I have a feeling that Lightwave is already working on the faster renders given that they hired two ex-Electric Image programmers.

Finally, I would like to see Newtek develop an even closer relationship with Worley Labs. His plug-ins are simply put 'Fantastic'. Some of them need to be incorporated into LW as part of Lightwave. For example, Sasquatch. I'm talking about the full version here. Also, I would like to see the incorporation of Gaffer, and the Polk collection. I owuld also like to see Maestro incorporated into LW. I saw a friend of mine use this program, and I was sold. I'll be purchasing it on my next payday. Newtek could have two versions of Lightwave in the same manner as Softimage and Maya have multiple versions of their wonderful software. This would allow for some scalability. Obviously, the price for this advanced version Lightwave would be higher. But, given the extra features that would be part of it, the higher price would be justified.

At any rate, that's my $0.02 cents. Again, I hope that this thread stays positive. and constructive! The grass may seem greener on the other side, but I have friends of mine who pull their hair out with other programs as well. All these programs have their strengths and weaknesses. Best wishes and luck to all those in 3d. May you work hard, and realize your 3d goals!

[akademus]

Just crossed my mind. It would be cool to have Morph sliders in Modeler so we can see it's behaviour before sending it to layout and adding the Morph Mixer

[cappie]

They could start by getting their website accessible again from within europe... (and yes, I'm aware of the existence of newtek-europe.com, but that site just sux :))

[akademus]

Just occured to me. It would be nice if USB dongle could carry extra flash memory so we can keep config's and presets with us on only one device.

I just found myself looking stupid with two of these around my neck...

[StevenBHS]

normal mapping ?

[Kid-Mesh]

Just intergrate Layout and Modeler into one app for starters.

[CtrlAltDel]

A VCR button set for Graph Editor (or a working shortcut) will be cool.
Has anybody ever done motion tracking thru the Graph editor? Paaainnnfulll :)
Moving frame by frame by arrow button has to be done in main window, switching from the Graph Editor to main window just top off my stress level.

[revised: found the shortcut: shift + arrow :) ]

Or, hey, better yet, a built-in motion tracker.

[resbot]

One of my complaints about the Modeler being a separate program from Layout is that it limits an artist's ability to be spontaneous when working in a scene. If you are working on a scene and decide you want an object to be modeled to fit into a scene that has multiple object files / layers loaded in and cloned all over the place, you have to start a brand new object or layer, and then model it blindly and then check back in Layout to see how it fits. These kinds of extra steps slow you down and hinder your creativity. So here's an idea:

Make a button called "Create Object" in Layout. When you press this button it opens a new window (let's call it the Create Object window).

The first button in the window will create a null that you position in the scene where you want the object's pivot point to be located.

The next button ("model object") will switch to Modeler, where you can start building your mesh or whatever; but here's the tricky bit: one of the options for "Create Object" should create a "mesh snapshot" of the entire scene that is in Layout and throw it into a special layer in modeler (with options to limit polycounts for the snapshot in case you have a complicated scene, only snapshot a selected area, etc...) so you can see your model in it's new home right within modeler. And if you want you can pull points and polygons from the snapshot to integrate into your new model.

I think this would really help the workflow in lightwave and allow artists to quickly add to scenes without burdening them with all the steps they would have to go through to do this by hand.

[toonafish]

Just crossed my mind. It would be cool to have Morph sliders in Modeler so we can see it's behaviour before sending it to layout and adding the Morph Mixer

check this one: http://www.dstorm.co.jp/english/plugin/vmap.htm#MorphMapMixer

note: before using the sliders in Modeler, create an empty endomorph.

[toonafish]

normal mapping ?

here ya go :

http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/p_junk.html

[lardbros]

Hahaha, amazing... so many things have been addressed by the Lightwave community. Shame Newtek hasn't done the same and put them into the software itself

[Zarathustra]

Provide better support for others' object formats.
C4D can load LW objects and scenes. It can also load lwos from Modo so there are two 3d apps out there right now that support lwos with n-gons and LW isn't one of them. Crazy, huh?
Start providing better support for Maya. Until NT makes LW do whatever it is people leave it to go to Maya for, they could at least make it easier to come back for rendering which is what many people do thanks to the 999 nodes allowed.

[nikopol_gfx]

First of all, Lightwave is a beautiful package, and, despite all critics, is on a good path, IMHO. I don't ask some complicated things, only things that could be implemented easily by Newtek's talented team.


These are some things I have seen in 3dmax, and I think those would be useful in Lightwave:
----------------------


- import from other 3d formats, without the need for other plugins, not only exporting; exporting with quads for 3DS format

- I wish I could see again 8bf support, for Photoshop filters in post; the legacy plugin in unstable; this could be used to affect some special buffers, without the need for post;

- a much better Glow effect, with per-object settings, not globally; and more than 4 special buffers - but with a good compositing package, I could live with that

- a better snapping for Modeler, and especially, for Layout; yeah, snapping in Layout; everybody wants it.

- some integrated plugins for Camera matching & tracking - would be very nice !

- selective import in "Load from scene"

- a Group/Ungroup command(optionally, can be done with a script)

- More selection tools in Modeler - polyline lasso, paint selection

- Ease/Multiplier curve for animation channels

- a command similar with Normalize time/Constant velocity



A very cool thing I like to see in Lightwave nine is a procedural system for creating complex geometry, like L-system. Houdini has it.

A great enhancement for Lightwave would be also an extended API. It doesn't directly affects end users, but allows developers like Worley Labs to do better plugins for us.

That's all, folks, and sorry for my english.

[carlw]

Hey i'm new here...
I just wanted to add that it would be cool if u could goto the camera properties and choose render modes...like clay style or wireframe clay or wireframe texture or whatever.
Then from there, choose the specific options for that style...ie: what colour the wires will be rendered...then do the render, then just go back to the camera and set it back to normal texture render.
That way u don't have to edit each objects textures just to do a clay render or in the case of wireframe, u dont have to run the multiple_surface plugin...save it as a seperate file and then load it up again.

[jporter313]

I think the seperation between modeler and layout is an old and outdated concept and is holding ightwave back more than it is beneficial.

Also, correct me if these have been fixed because I haven't used lightwave since v6.5, but:

-MULTIPLE UNDOS IN LAYOUT!! This is ridiculous not to have.
-everything is undoable. Last time I used lightwave you could only undo certain things, this was really aggravating.
-good way to pick objects in a complex scene. When I was using lightwave before, the only way to pick things was to click them in the viewport which was totally broken, or to pick from that stupid menu at the bottom of layout which was totally inefficient.

When I last used it, Modeler was an up to date, well designed, powerfull program, while it seemed like Layout needed a LOT of work, maybe this has changed since then.

[lardbros]

I think the seperation between modeler and layout is an old and outdated concept and is holding ightwave back more than it is beneficial.


Gotta disagree slightly... i think the way each module is separate makes me work in a more productive way. Having models separate from scene files prevents HUGE files and promotes nice folder hierarchies and a clean way of working. BUT i agree that it does hold LW back a bit. No animated modelling is a pain, despite workarounds that are in place, it's still not good. From what i've seen of Siggraph '05 and Lightwave 9, Newtek have actually fixed all of these points. Layout will include most modelling tools, so they will animatable... yet the object and scene files will be kept separate, just the way i like them. Another plus for a different way of working (i don't agree with integration though, it always makes for bloated packages and files) is the RAM usage. At the moment, with LW's hub, modeller, layout all using chunks of RAM to store object information seems wrong, and wasteful.

Seems like LW9 will fix most peoples worries for the software... it has fixed most of mine.

[jporter313]

Gotta disagree slightly... i think the way each module is separate makes me work in a more productive way. Having models separate from scene files prevents HUGE files and promotes nice folder hierarchies and a clean way of working. BUT i agree that it does hold LW back a bit. No animated modelling is a pain, despite workarounds that are in place, it's still not good. From what i've seen of Siggraph '05 and Lightwave 9, Newtek have actually fixed all of these points. Layout will include most modelling tools, so they will animatable... yet the object and scene files will be kept separate, just the way i like them. Another plus for a different way of working (i don't agree with integration though, it always makes for bloated packages and files) is the RAM usage. At the moment, with LW's hub, modeller, layout all using chunks of RAM to store object information seems wrong, and wasteful.

Seems like LW9 will fix most peoples worries for the software... it has fixed most of mine.

From what I read they just integrated mesh deformation into Layout, it's a step in the right direction, but not the fundamental change that I feel is needed.

I hate to say it and I know I'm going to get flamed, but since I moved to Maya I can not see how they could make this seperate programs approach work and be competitive with the top tier 3D apps.

Also, can anyone tell me, did they ever fix the undo problems I mentioned before? They are one of the major reasons I left lightwave, they kept adding new features and didn't ever fix the ridiculously basic problems that the program had.

[Zarathustra]

they kept adding new features and didn't ever fix the ridiculously basic problems that the program had.

Yup. Well that's all supposed to change with 9. That's the hope, anyway.

[jporter313]

see message below

[jporter313]

Yup. Well that's all supposed to change with 9. That's the hope, anyway.

I hope so man, Lightwave has got a lot of things going for it, it would be nice to see them fix those problems and make it a viable competitor to Max/XSI/Maya, god knows it has the potential.

On the other hand, they've been saying that same thing since 6, and there's only so many times they can cry wolf before they lose their credibility.

I almost think they should go the Softimage/XSI or Alias/Maya route and start fresh, seems to have worked well for these other companies, maybe Newtek could benefit from it too.

[lardbros]

I have also used 3dsMAX ALOT in the past, and get on with it very well, just still like Lightwave for most of the work i do.

Anyway... what i gather is that instead of going the "start fresh" route, and leaving it's customers with nothing for a great deal of time, Newtek have gone the change huge chunks while keeping the base package in tact. Seems the toughest choice in terms of working against yourself (just an assumption, i'm no programmer at all) but atleast they will keep us lot happy with updates more often. Newtek has gone through a massive upheaval since version 6, and now, after employing a brand new team, progression is going in leaps and bounds. Clearly the dev team have gotten to grips with things since version 8, and now 9 will include many things we have kept our fingers crossed for a long time... N-gon support, faster rendering, hardware shading sith faster OpenGL too, plenty more things aswell...

Maya is great software but it has had a solid core for a while, meaning easier to update and with prices on their upgrades they sure as hell can afford to put alot of money into development. Now that Newtek are opening up the SDK and thinking towards the future, by keeping every added feature open and ready for any new advances in technology, we will see things happen more speedily. :bounce: Here's hoping!!

[jporter313]

I have also used 3dsMAX ALOT in the past, and get on with it very well, just still like Lightwave for most of the work i do.

Anyway... what i gather is that instead of going the "start fresh" route, and leaving it's customers with nothing for a great deal of time, Newtek have gone the change huge chunks while keeping the base package in tact. Seems the toughest choice in terms of working against yourself (just an assumption, i'm no programmer at all) but atleast they will keep us lot happy with updates more often. Newtek has gone through a massive upheaval since version 6, and now, after employing a brand new team, progression is going in leaps and bounds. Clearly the dev team have gotten to grips with things since version 8, and now 9 will include many things we have kept our fingers crossed for a long time... N-gon support, faster rendering, hardware shading sith faster OpenGL too, plenty more things aswell...

Maya is great software but it has had a solid core for a while, meaning easier to update and with prices on their upgrades they sure as hell can afford to put alot of money into development. Now that Newtek are opening up the SDK and thinking towards the future, by keeping every added feature open and ready for any new advances in technology, we will see things happen more speedily. :bounce: Here's hoping!!

All very true. Looking forward to seeing where it goes.

Cheers.

BTW: I'm really curious, can someone tell me whether they've fixed the undo issues or not?

[lardbros]

BTW: I'm really curious, can someone tell me whether they've fixed the undo issues or not?



Ummm, in short... yes, but in long... kind of, but not all things in Layout are undoable still. Like move the pivot point and try to undo where you moved it to and you won't get anywhere. Many more examples, like the surface editor and a few other things too.

[jporter313]

Ummm, in short... yes, but in long... kind of, but not all things in Layout are undoable still. Like move the pivot point and try to undo where you moved it to and you won't get anywhere. Many more examples, like the surface editor and a few other things too.

Yeah, in my opinion, that should be top priority for them to fix. Let's up hope they get it sorted out with 9.

[Jarrede]

Allow the thread setting in the render panel to be scene controlled, not config controlled. OR, somehow get volumetric's+transparencies to render with multiple threads enabled.

Also, would be nice to set separate ray recursion limits for different types of rays, example being if I have a scene with loads of transparencies I need to increase the ray limit so it will properly render those objects, but I don't want reflection bouncing around that many times.

I'd also like to see the something like the ASA buffer saver built into LW's render output panel. The plugin works great on individual machines, but I've been having problems getting it to work on my farm.

I'd also like to specify multiple output paths, with an option to scale one outputs resolution by say 50% and place data overlay's on that output for simple veiwing and editing.

Have a render mode like quickshade but enable transparencies.

A control interface for separating different elements in renders, like being able to only render volumetric's, transparencies, deformed objects, or animated objects. I often find that in my workflow It would save me time if I could easily isolate these different types of elements while checking renders.

Save an instanced image after it's been edited, and the option to display the image directory path next to it's name, and a display of what objects images are being referenced to.

Choosing what information gets displayed in the render display panel, like ray limits, thread settings, and how long it took to render previous frames being held in the buffer. While optimizing scenes I find myself writing down render times for previous frames so I can get an idea of the scaling.

Better RLA, EXR, and HDRI support would be nice, saving out instanced HDRI images would be helpful.

Unlimited AA passes like Fprime.

"Yes to all" should mean "yes to all"

Proper alpha in transparencies when refraction is enabled.

Pull down menu with a list of scenes, much like the pulldown menu in modeler when you have multiple objects open. And the ability to copy/paste settings between the two.

[Tee Double U]

Improved knife tool

as of now when used and you enter to accept the slice, the slice gizmo dissapears from viewport. what if it didnt dissapear and you were able to select the gizmo and move it to another location to create a new slice at the exact same rotation as the previous slice just made?

[lardbros]

Improved knife tool

as of now when used and you enter to accept the slice, the slice gizmo dissapears from viewport. what if it didnt dissapear and you were able to select the gizmo and move it to another location to create a new slice at the exact same rotation as the previous slice just made?

Or you could try using the right mouse button after making a cut with the knife tool and it will move it to a new location exactly at the angle you had it at, and make a new cut. YAY!

[toonafish]

just a small feature I could really use at the moment: render scene for selected items. Like the F11 key, but then all frames and to the HD. Maybe F12 ?

[Anti-Distinctlyminty]

Integrated SSS solution would be nice.

Also, a tranparency blur that is useful. At the moment it renders too slowly to be of any use.

Transparent absorbant surfaces are a nightmare to try and recreate.

[lhermittem]

Hi!
Here are a few things I'm thinking of... they don't fit in any particular category...

1) ability (with a right-click) in the surface editor to classify textures based on different filter (alphabetical order, group, etc.) I'm doing a lot of architectural project and scrolling through 50 textures or more is very time consuming.

2)Handles in modeler with 3 coordinate system choice. (I'm using Modo as well, and they are very handy)

3)I'D LOVE TO SEE THIS ONE: Under size option (surface editor, procedurals) beeing able to use a texture or gradient to control the size of a procedural: imagine using a gradient on a weight map to change the scale of a texture smoothly (a weight map range from 100% on the back of a dino to 10% on the belly controling the size of procedural scails...)

4)Gradient control for shadows (map + raytracing) allowing color and opacity change from a distance input or incidence angle.

5)Enveloppe for effect speed under Hyper Voxel texture option. Would be nice to control the texture frequency, contrast etc as well.

6) Being able to chose how effects will wok together (add, multiply etc.) For instance spline control with bones,

7)beeing able to subdivide the object "first" to get nice displacement on the surface and once more in "last" order to smoothen bones or morph deformation after the animation is done. Basicly, a "two passes subdivision with independant level of sud-d. (10 for displacement and 2 for smoothing the creases after bones anim for instance.)


That's it for today.
Thank you for listening!!!

Marc

[kyle-reese]

Here is my 2 cents. No real original.

What LW need is a re-organisation of a lot of his fonctions. It need to be more logical.
Version 8 is way more complexe than the first version i have used. The 4.

I like LW for his speedy workflow.
You can rapidly model, texture, light and set up a scene, better thant any other package i think. He is good on basic 3D. But when you want more than basic 3d -->

it would need:

- a lot faster, more accurate and easy setup dynamics (soft/cloth/hard/pfx) with real time preview (reactor-like) where all objects can interact.

- easy setup hair dynamics ( bring back shave and a hair cut)

- an easy character animation setup, a character studio like. (no need to buy another app for animation, no more messiah )

- revisited and faster hyper voxel and volumetrics. New Sky tracer.

- intancing ( buy HD intance)

- full open sdk for option render.

- sss (every app have sss)

All this are no revolutionnary things, it is just the minimum to expect rising near the competitors this days. Maybe NT needs to rise his price too. Every freelancer need those fonction this days. If he can't have it with LW, the freelancer will consider going elsewhere
even if he has to pay more. Because he need to have the work done anyway.

Maybe to have 2 or 3 version of LW like XSi/MAYA or C4D is a good thing.
We want a real full 3d package. When i read in the advert that LW can make real cloths dynamics ... i'm laughing. Same with complexe character animation, real fluid dynamics and hair. And i don't want to laugh anymore, no more joking. LW has the potential. To be taken seriously by the professionnals, LW must be totaly professionnal.

[danmst3k]

Here's an easy one:

- How about being able to toggle GridSnap with hotkeys!!!

I spend half my day turning it on and off through the ---'gasp' menu system!!! I have tried an several occasions to assign gridsnap to a hotkey but with no luck. It dosen't seem to be in the list of stuff you can map. I've also tried Lscript a while ago but not recently.

[danmst3k]

Another little thing which would be really great is if there was a button next to Unseen by Rays that said Unseen by Radiosity. I use a lot of environmental radiosity (mainly for speed reasons) and I'm always running into a problem.

- example:

I had a project which involved animating a mobile lab truck that had scientific equipment and stuff in it. In order for GI to work I had to set the walls of the truck to unseen by rays. The problem was there was a lot of shiny surfaces (chrome) in the truck that I wanted the walls to reflect in. With the walls set to unseen by rays I would only see the GI sphere in the reflections which makes for lousy reflections. Unseen by radiosity would solve this problem by making the walls invisible to GI but be visible in the shiny stuff!

[50caliber]

I current am using LW7.0 so I not sure if they have this in the new version but here goes.. Have a series of pre-defined 3d shapes that can enhanse the geometry in a variety of combinations. For example: the brow shape can be use to make extra geometry that pop out in a eyebrow sort of way. There can also be a series of drill bits that would be useful in creating a cutout effect but rather than slicing through the mesh it will add contours that follows the mesh. Again adding geometry.

Another thing that would be cool is to have a Fat tool. The fat tool would work somewhat like the smooth scale but it with a weight map. As you increase the amount the model becomes fatter. However, the extra bulk will not spead evenly with most of the bulk will be deposited in the waste. Thats where the weight map comes in. You can alter the center of gravity to displace the bulk.

[R-6]

How about better UV unwrapping tools?

[softdistortion]

Yeah, UV tools overhaul! I use them, but take a look at Maya's uv tools. Not even Bodypaint has a relax UV tool like Maya, that allows repeated iterations and gives as great a result.
Also look at maya for intelligent tools for selection, Moving_sew selections to the proper area, recognizing and flipping backface UV's without your defining them...etc...etc

[StevenDS]

Please recode all plug-ins that don't take advantage of multi-threading/multiple CPUs to, well, use all available CPU power.

That would be super.

[bodoquedoc]

parametric animation, layout and modeler integrated and more competitive in reference for the others, a viper like fprime

[dony1]

Hello Folks,
I found this posting very interesting and I would like to invite you all to share your experiences with me and contribute to my research. I posted the description of my research in this forum (Title: Scientific Research on LightWave 3D):
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=4072455#post4072455
If you like to go directly to project website here is the link:
<http://www.cs.concordia.ca/~donyaee>
Your experiences are very valuable to me and I would appreciate your participation. I will share the results as soon as they are ready.
Good luck everybody

[JeremyBass]

so i don't know if anyone sujested this before but i'v got LW9 and i think it'd be cool if you could chose which panals share and are stand alone, putting a check box at the top of all panals to turn it off and on. it's an easy thing to add and a good sultion for the new handling of the pannels... i know everyone at the studio i work at complanes about this area... it's so easy to add it could and i think should be added before the release of the update to LW9.. but thats just my small idea... :)

[adboy]

first let me say i love lightwave, but it falss short in a few places but not as may as you'd think, i work as a vfx artist and as far as i can tell the main things lightwave needs to make it competitive are....

a real render pass system as in
this object this light in a pass and in this pass i want the light to use these setting and the object to use this material

its been said before but i'll say it again, fluid dynamics similar to mayas, and the easy way things cane be linked , like forces and particles, i find it hard to believe that maya has had this system so long and we still havent come up with anything similar

and last but easily the most important is the scripting, programs liek maya are only used as widly as they are because they give the ability to chage anything u want to suit your purpose via scripting, lightwave should drop lscript and use python as most other are, hell maya is now python, so is xsi and realfow, would be nice to open up lightwaves tools to a whole new set of users wouldnt it

[DustinBrown]

1) Construction history. It's kind of a bummer having to keep multiple versions of my geometry in situations where construction history could have kept me from having to do so.

2) More thorough documentation and tutorials. Look at what Autodesk has for 3ds Max and Maya. The docs and tuts that ship with their software are great. I wish I had a penny for every time I had a question about a specific field or option in LW, I did a search for it in the LW help, and it came back with zilch. I also don't like that the help is Flash. Flash makes it kind of clunky to use.

3) In the Load Object Layer dialog, if would be great if you could load more than one layer at a time. Instead of loading layer 1 then 9 then 12, you could type in 1, 9, 12 and get it done all on one feld swoop.

4) Lattices. Because they're the shit. And don't give me that "you can do the same thing with weight maps" crap. Lattices are faster.

5) Standard base shaders, like Phong and Lambert. (edit: implimented in v9.0)

6) The ability to choose your Content Directory from Modeler (or at least Hub!). Sometimes I just pop in to Modeler to make some geometry tweaks. Currently I have to open Layout first to choose my Content Directory, otherwise Modeler is confused as to where to find the assets it wants. (edit: implimented in v9.0)

7) In Layout, make Subdivision Order set to LAST by default. For the love of God.

8) Make the default lighting in Layout something more evenly lit. The currenly moody single spot light doesn't lend itself to allowing the user to just pop in to Layout and do a quick task in a new scene. I mean you can, but but you won't be able to see what you're doing. I currently keep a scene with a "defaul" lit rig that I import in to any new scene, but that's a workaround...and workarounds are lame.

9) Make it so Layout can import more audio formats than just wav files. The ability to import mp3's, for example, would be great because they're smaller and are less likely to bog down your scene. When recources are in a bind, audio playback in Layout can quickly get so choppy that it's almost impossible to understand what you're hearing.

- Dustin

[Polou]

I will love a better import & export = obj with mtl.:)

[salahaddin]

- add edge (split edge) anywhere on polygon.
- bevel edge (rounder) improve.
- Selection mode (rectangle,lasso,circle).
- X-ray mode in modeler
- Auto show background when create new layer (like modo)
- Freeze object (can't select object) mode.
- Sculpt tool.
- Object History.
- shadow maps to all light type.

[mlynch]

I know it's been stated before, but...

I'd love to see a non-destructive modifier stack added to Modeler.

I'd also love to see instancing implemented in Layout.

[lukasdesign]

I would love to do some basic modelling with NURBS, but I really need the ability to import IGES or STEP. Lightwave is such a great tool for visualization, but the import from StudioTools, Rhino or SolidEdge via *.lwo or *.obj is so time consuming, specially during the whole creative process. I guess if u have to render only the final model it's no problem but importing it all the time just for showing your new ideas to your AD is a pain...

[vancliff]

in modeler when making an object in one layer and then forgetting to click in the next layer icon and you will have a hard time separating both objects it shouldnot be so, there should be a way to make two different objects in one layer

[Megacal]

I have LW9, am basically a newbie, am taking the course on LW9 at VTC, but am
very frustrated with the program. I believe it's a great app, and I want to be able to
use it well , but just can't seem to get to 1st base with it. (emoticon here banging head
on wall).

I'd like to see a more user-friendly interface....I'd like to be able to create something easily, grab it, move it, tweek it easily as I can in trueSpace6.6.....it's so intuitive.
(that program is seriously under-rated here, IMHO....it has some very cool modeling tools)

The point is, a high-end app doesn't have to necessarily have a learning curve as steep
as say, Mt.Everest. I know LW is supposed to be "easy", I guess compared to Max or Maya, but for me, it's anything but.

I don't have time to take a formal course (eg like Gnomon's or at a college), so I'm
learning on my own. I'm not a constrained by money so much as by time available.
If I can make a reasonable amount of progress, I keep going.

Time = money, right? The faster someone can learn and use an app the better all around.

I would also like to see support for NURBS. Is LW the only one that doesn't have them?

Based on what I've seen other's do, and what users say, "I love LW, etc", I intend to
keep banging my head on the gui until one or the other cracks.

BTW, I've been using 3D apps since I had an Amiga in '89, but lately have had the urge to really dig in and spend the time and energy learning & creating what I can imagine.

In the past 2 months I've tried:



Maya....great app, difficult gui
XSI....great app, great gui...I may still get it.
Modo....ditto
Rhino....very cool
Silo....spartan, but good.
Vue.....great app....amazing demo....appears hard to learn.
Blender.....everyone likes it.....doesn't do it for me (yet)
Besides LW9 I have:

trueSpace6.6....didn't like it originally, but have found it easy & powerful...great app.
Carrara6 Pro....great app, great gui
ZBrush3....amazing app & beautiful gui
StrataCX5....very nice gui...relatively easy to use
Hexagon2....ditto
Bryce6....an oldy-but-goody.....best dang interface of all, IMHO.
"A great app is a terrible thing to waste", so I hope something will "click" between me
and LW, even if it never has NURBS or the gui remains as inigmatic as Fu Man Chu.


"Never give up, never give up..." - Sir Winston Churchill :thumbsup:

[RobertoOrtiz]

Re-opened the thread.


_R

[Koshmar]

... similar to Deep Exploration's... Rotate/pan/zoom without AA smoothly -> stop and wait/think what to do next -> and in a split second you get a nice, clearer antialiased view... It would be nice for us not having Quadros or FireGLs or similar... :)

[sk3d]

I use the Autodesk products alot, so alot of my referance comes from them:

Better polly modelling tools. Theyr nice, but PLEASE add a split poly tool or cut tool like in Maya / Max.

Better extrusion; Its never neat, often spliting the polys and goin off in odd angles.

A proper Character animation sytem. I use Messiah, How do they get away wirth not having this!!!???

Bitmap update in Layout and modeller; Why do i have to always update changed image maps manualy, the other progs do this automaticly!

Being uble to add multiple smooth groups on a mesh (like in Max). need it! :shrug:

Being able to see hair/fur in viewport and maybe an ability to groom them?

Better particle effects like Maya.

Proper undo system in Layout, and possibly a command history for modeller too.

Repeat last function button plz

Cant think of any more for now.

Well done Newtek on the Nodal texturing updates, improved GI performance and normal mapping support. Lovely stuff, MUCH appreciated!:buttrock: :love:



Cheers

SK

[zupadupa]

Aloha,
been in IT for 18 years , had a hand in most anything from hardware or software. I am trying to get up to speed on something..to do basic stuff. I used Simply 3D and Vegas Video years ago to do kennywars. google kennywars if your interested.

My take on the new user, even those exposed to many platforms linux etc. is that the interface now don't get defensive here, I am saying I already decided to proceed with lightwave and have tried studio max maya and xsi. anyway, my take on the interface is that is appears ..archaic. old like when you set a windows app next to the old 4GL based applications, yeah they worked and once you learned them they were so much faster and you could do anything with them once you became an expert. They went away, for the largest part of the market anyway didn't they.

The other thing, being a novell guy and always debating the unix bitheads in the 90s my favorite argument was why walk all the way to town when you can take a bus half the way.

I am talking about wizards. Yep my colleages used to make fun of me because I would use wizards. Unix guys loved to do everything with the longest command line possible, and I would get my results with a mix of higher level tools and the nitty gritty stuff to glue it together, I was a big VISUAL STUDIO MDF programmer when the unix guys loved the raw C.

Anyway. I want to be able to open lightwave click a "wizard" and have it step me through setting up all the params related to an activity. Right now I have to know what panels and parameters will allow me to get something done. Why? If you want to do some basic stuff like make an object rotate in a circle or any other common path, why not have a behavior that can quickly be applied the object via a wizard. Same with the camera, why cant i pull an object into layout and run a 3 second wizard that rotates the camera 360 around my object at a particular pitch, whatever.

I just want to make a basic rig of diamond head from ben 10 to make my son turn into him and run away. He barely has to move. Do I need to completely understand the entire theory and implementation of IK? why. I will if I need to but I would rather take the bus half the way.

I know there are plugins with scripts to assist with this, but I don't want to see a script much less create one, I want to throw my model on the screen and begin applying premade movements to it, pick from a huge library of awesome surfaces, render and then use motion and final cut to do some fun stuff.

My .2 cents.

[Shuggs]

I'm surprised this hasn't already been addressed in the last several updates to LW, but the ability to simply UNDO mistakes in Layout. I can't even count the number of times I accidentally deleted a key, deleted an object, or did something completely stupid, and if I didn't save a previous version in the condition I want it then I have to click through everything to undo something or have to reload this or that. It's annoying.

Also, a more friendlier interface. All of that gray is boring.

[Zethriel]

I have not readen the whole thread so forgive me if someone already said this:

Directx visualization instead of opengl

Just this one is enough for me in this moment.

[Brötje]

Keyable groups. I want to make selection sets containing both objects and bones so that with one keyframe I can key the whole pose. This would be much easier to block out the animation and adjust timing. That's my two cents.

[Mike Pauza]

In no particular order...


1) "Performace" Based NLE Animation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AZRYJC9RV8
I know I'd love something like this in LW for quickly roughing out character animation, and guess it wouldn't be all that hard to implement. It would allow us to "perform multiple takes" of our animations in realtime (like live action movie productions), then use the graph editor to finish only the "takes" we wish to use.



2) Editing Keyframe Splines in Velocity or Acceleration modes.
May or may not be easy to implement depending on the NewTek's spline math in the graph editor. May not be interesting to NewTek. It would be great for certain kinds of animations though, and great for tweaking animation after the first pass.


3) Better/Easier rig weighting, prefab rigs, and better bone deformations.



4) Wicked Fast OpenGL...duh.



5) Cuda accelerated everything. This may be pie in the sky.



6) Making use of free (and in most ways superior) dynamics systems.



7) Script that can access any parameter of any tool, and is smoking fast.



8) "Full support" of pngs.



9) Integrate Can Tarcan's Dynamite plugin.



10) Realtime rendering like FPrime, Modo, etc. Viper doesn't count.



11) "Simple" Sculpting & Painting like Modo.



12) Core changes to allow LightWave close integration with Adobe producrs (Photoshop, Premiere, After Effects).



13) Interface makeover...It's ugly guys, and ergonomics need more work.



14) Facilitate the creation of killer online assets resources for professional LW users...like DAZ has done.



15) Fully support 3D data standards.



16) More (and more polished) compositing tools. What ever happened to AURA? Can any aura/VT tech be folded in?



17) Geometry Baking with LOD.



18) Closer ties to Vue, Terragen, Daz, Poser, NextLimit, NaturalMotion, etc.



19) Closer ties to Apple, Intel, NVidia, ATI, etc.



20) Hypervoxels were great when they came out, but now...



21) Keep up the marketing...you've finally gotten it right.



Sure there's much more. -Mike

[Jockomo]

21) Keep up the marketing...you've finally gotten it right.


Well they almost got it right. They shouldn't have waited until yesterday to make that video.
Or whatever their excuse is for the quality. They need to get Kiki and William to deliver these things, or if they can't do it find someone who looks good and can present well, and do a REALLY good job on them.

If they were really smart they would pull out all the stops and pay Dick Van Dyke to do it. That would be awesome. For those who don't know, he is a long time lightwave user.

http://abhinav.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/poppins1.jpg

[RikSavage]

For LW Modeler
1. Sculpting tools with normal mapping support (something like zbrush or silo)
2. Deformers. The ability to warp geometry in various ways including around another mesh. (like zbrush deformers)
3. Better Uv tools
4. A body painting feature like in cinema or modo
5. A better polygon reducer that doesn't mess up the geometry when applied. The Edge loops should be consistant with the original object except with less loops.

[kukukiki74]

My most frustrating thing about is plugins. As my understanding, we have 4 flavors of plugins...

1. 32bit windows
2. 64bit windows
3. Mac UB Plugin
4. Mac PPC Plugin

Need unified plugin that works on all platform.... This is poor design. I hope CORE will fix this.

[benwin21]

I think im talking for all the newbie ones in 3d.

i think that you should make the software more friendly for beginners in 3d. if it was more friendly for beginners more people will choose to work on it. if i'm a beginner(and I am) and i found a software that is friendly and easy to activate then i will choose to work on it.

hope you got what i meant

[norto32]

1st test post

[Jtech]

1. Significantly improve the character modeling tools, make more tool similar to Zbrush.

2. Significantly improve the hair creating tools.

3. Make the dynamics a lot easier to use.

here's just a few I don't think anyone thought up.