A Question About: Gnomon Vs. Digital-Tutors Vs. Lost Pencil Animation Studios...

[MunCHeR]

Thats a tough one to answer, there isnt really a 100% solution for learning maya, it depends what you know already and what you're trying to learn, the gnomon series has 48 dvd's or something like that, you're not going to get the same amount of info on the 2 dvd's that the lost pencil dvd's come with. I would go with the lost pencil maya apprenticeship, it takes you through a whole project and I guess its good for getting your feet wet, the gnomon series are a bit more specific, tons of good information and very well explained, same with the digital-tutors set.What do you want to learn exactly? modelling, animation, rigging etc.

MunCH

[Fahad]

Thanks MunCHeR for your promt reply.

As for what I want ... I'm not looking to specialize in one area, least not now anyway. You put it well when you said "getting your feet wet", that's basically what I want to do. I want to understand all I can about the application, and the production process on an intermediate level, so that whenever I do decide to specialize in one area, I'd at least have a good idea about other areas. I'm in no immediate hurry to choose a specialization, as this is a hobby of mine, so I figure, why not take an all-round tour so to speak?

[westiemad]

I like gnomon videos, although I think they are the most expensive, they certainly cover their topic areas well. But to be honest you'd be hard pressed to choose one. If you like to see how they do stuff in the films, start seeing if u can find anything from siggraph.

[Fahad]

If you like to see how they do stuff in the films, start seeing if u can find anything from siggraph.
Thanks for the suggestion westiemad, can you give any specifics?

cheers.

[westiemad]

taking a look round google, i can't see anything, there is the site http://www.siggraph.org/s2004/conference/courses/index.php?pageID=conference but i don't think you can get much out of it.

[MunCHeR]

Yeah its probably better to have an idea how the whole process goes, the gnomon dvd's are excellent and will take you quite a while to go through(and even a bundle will cost you a pretty penny), the digital tutors backwater bunch series or the lost pencil ones would be better I guess for an "overall" idea, and really for 9 hours of tuition and $100 you cant go wrong, and honestly I wouldnt even look at any of the alias dvd's they are just over priced and if people keep buying them, they're gonna keep charging an arm and a leg for them (note to self: dont buy anymore)

Goodluck

MunCH

[Fahad]

Thanks westiemad for the link, I'll definetly be looking into it ... and thanks MunCHeR for the heads up on Alias's DVDs, was about to ask about them.

Any other production-based tutorial set we might have left out?

Thanks again all.

[Andrea3d]

DT Rulez!!!

[Fahad]

DT Rulez!!!
Well that's reassuring, though can you be a little more specific?

[Sagroth]

I've watched a lot of Gnomons, D-T and Lost Pencil. In my opinion, the quality of lectures themselves is the best in Gnomons. LP Maya Apprentice is an interesting set 'cause you're going to make this elephant from scratch to animation and rendering (sp that's a good project for overall learning), but techiques used... Well, I like to use 4/5/6 buttons than to go inside menues and press them there by mouse (that's just an example of what I mean - lector makes a lot of little mistakes etc. - that's minimal in Gnomon/Alias)... D-T is just a waste of time and money - watched a couple of Kits - it's just video version of Maya Help with explanations like "Now watch yourself what would happen when I change this attribute... oops, nothing happend... that's just because our model don't have [...] so let's move to another attribute" (myself, I would never recommend anyone to buy D-T).

So, the best are Gnomon and Alias DVDs, but they are video oriented, so the quality of picture is lower than D-T/LP (they make comp data in Camtasia or something like this), but, in my opinion, that doesn't spoil a choice to buy them a bit. So, if you ask me ;) - buy Gnomons (Alias are more speciefic so they often aren't good for start and overall).

[MunCHeR]

The gnomon and alias dvd's are pretty costly, and I wouldnt count out the digital-tutors, after all its just a visual way of learning and if the maya documentation was worth a pinch of shi* we wouldnt need this kind of training as much.The Alias DVD's have some good info, atleast the latest ones, I mean the fluids dvd is just a lecture sure theres good info but it doesnt take you step by step through anything, and they were asking $130 US for it if my memory serves me correctly, that kind stuff should come bundles with an upgrade:D

MunCH

[Sagroth]

and if the maya documentation was worth a pinch of shi* we wouldnt need this kind of training as much.You misunderstood me... Maya Help is a great thing, maybe greater than any tutor sometimes (though I don't like it's 6.0 version ;))

Yeap, I didn't "count in" the price in my post. I'd just compared the info itself and had written my own opinion, so no offence awaited. Lets just everyone think for himself whether he want to buy one good thing or 2 useless. I don't like to buy cheap but low-quality stuff. I'd better buy nothing at all. But that's again just my opinion.

Agreed, Alias does have some not very useful videos... As well as everyone. But "what to buy from Alias exactly" is another question.

P.S. Info from old Alias 'Patch Modeling for Visual FX' for example, answered me a wide set of questions that remained unanswered on a couple of forums (this one also).

[ntmonkey]

If you just want to get your feet wet, then check out Buzz3d.com. They have some good, and very funny lectures.

I have bought a couple of Gnomon DVDs and watched a ton of them when I was in school. They are definately helpful and worth the money.

If you're learning, try to pull from all resources. Magazines like Cinefex shows you how some FX shots are planned, previs-ed, and executed. They're a bit pricey but good. This "big picture" mentality will help out a lot in the "REAL" world as they say. Be sure to check out 3D World too. They often feature tutorials and even videos from time to time. There are tons of materials out there for Maya.

Shoot me a PM and I can show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. :D

hope it helps,

Lu

[MunCHeR]

dude no offence taken here dude, just trying to help make Fahads decision easier, I have some cd/dvd from all these guys and I wouldnt say any were bad, as in i didnt learn anything, just the gnomon digital bundle is something like $3000 and the lost pencil thing is like $100, but you are still going to learn something from both.

MunCH

[Iconoklast]

I'd suggest getting digital tutors - intermediate polys/subds. It goes through the ENTIRE process of modeling/texturing/rendering a car. It's 9 hours long.

If you were to get digital tutors: maya basics (4 cd set) and the intermediate poly/subd car tutorial, it would get you up to speed with the basics and general workflow of maya.

The difference between gnomon and digital tutors, is that with DT, you follow along with projects and you see how they develop Project A and you try to replicate it yourself.
Gnomon on the other hand just covers techniques and concepts, which is good once you have a firm hand of maya.

Lost Pencil's maya apprenticeship is a complete project. You don't see anything advanced in terms of workflow, basically just the shelf and the main menus, but its best to understand the main menus first, because once you're comfortable with those and the tools inside them, making marking menus (which if you use maya, you will definitely do at some point), depending on what you use the most, becomes an easier task.

[Fahad]

Thanks everyone for the replies. Much appreciated.

So this is what I gather from all your suggestions:

Gnomon DVDs are all generally good and useful, and indepth.

Back Water Bunch and the car modelling tutorial offered by Digital-Tutors are the best things offered there.

Lost Pencil's Maya apprenticeship is also a good one piece production.

So do you think a combination of these companies' sets is a better deal?

For example:either 1) Digital-Tutors BWB and some Gnomon DVDs or 2)Lost Pencil's Elephant tutorial and some Gnomon DVDs?

if so, which DVDs from Gnomon are more useful/essential to have?

thanks again, this thread is proving to be most useful to myself, and hopefully to other prospectful CGers out there.

cheers.

[_vine_]

Just to add my two cents.

There are a great many Gnomon videos I really enjoyed watching. I must mention though, that the Organic modeling videos are an outdated way of working with nurbs that I would not suggest using.

It would be nice if Gnomon, at some point, had a chance to rerelease some of their videos of more up to date information where some of the tools have changed due to Maya updates.

[Iconoklast]

It really depends what you want to do/learn. If you're new to 3d in general, then the digital tutors maya basics or the car tutorial would be good, along with lost pencil's, simply because you see everything they do, and you can follow along and get the hang of maya by trial and error which is usually everyones preferred method of learning.

If you're just new to maya, then the gnomon's 'introduction to maya' are probably a must have in terms of learning the interface and some general tips and tricks.

[wrend]

just an opinion. beyond the 'getting your feet wet', id put it as bluntly as: gnomon is professional, and the rest are for kids. that is - somebody that knows what they're doing can get meaningfull informaiton from gnomon, but pretty much squat from the rest. at the introductory, getting your feet wet phase, id read the manual and play (or, reluctantly, buy the cheapest set, and play). reading the manual works, well. to get an idea of workflows, use the net for the various methods people employ - its personal, so review as many as you can (and there are many, due to this idiosyncrasy). the notion of 'doing what the pros do' is plop, as each house has their own take, and can often be project specific. if you develop your own workflow and bring it to one, if its dandy, they might even adopt that. if its small house you may not even need to change. i feel a hell of a lot more comofortable having read the manual than having had someone regurgitate the primordials in their own, biased, limited, take on whats availible. ill fordge my own path how i see it, not clone somebody elses (a somebody that has nothing better to do than produce tutorials for others. you know the ol' teachers adage - not always true, but often). mm, what am i saying? - teach yourself the fundamanetals (the app and the manual is all you need), take a look at what people offer for free, and buy gnomon latter if your getting a little more technical and dont have the background to initially intuit the approach yourself. if your worried about your money, dont spend it, keep it for yourself and the food you'll eat whilst learning by your own methods. when you need the more detailed training, your employer should buy it for you. just another perspective for ya! :)

[Sagroth]

I must mention though, that the Organic modeling videos are an outdated way of working with nurbs that I would not suggest using.
Do you mean their workflow or organic patch-modeling as a whole?

[Fahad]

thanks to everyone for the replies.

still contemplating.

cheers.



Fahad

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