PDA

View Full Version : Group Learning


WPTV
10-01-2004, 12:35 AM
I just had an idea that maybe some others here might be interested in doing. I was thinking of a group tutorial/lesson. Someone decides on an object to model. We all take our shot at it. Then we post our progress and make comparisons to each others. Then correct.

I thought it might be a great way to learn from each other and the use of different tools in modo.

Just a thought. Let me know if anyone is interested.

CoolDuck
10-01-2004, 12:54 AM
:thumbsup:
I like this idea! It can motivate some people to do work based on assignments, especially those who are not super veteran pros yet. :D

It sounds like speed modeling, only here speed isn't the matter. But I think this thing must have a target audience, for beginner, intermediate or advanced.

This kind of idea can be done with all 3d programs. Why not bring all 3d folks of different 'clans' together and do this together. So you will get work modeled in XSI, Maya, LW, Max, Modo, etc, a wide variety. :)

Nikola
10-01-2004, 01:06 AM
count me in :)

I have some experience of character modelling.

Maybe we could post blueprints and together work the same model.

we could solve problems together :) (somebody alredy said that:D :) )

WPTV
10-01-2004, 01:10 AM
Yeah after posting I saw the speed modeling thread. There certainly wouldn't be any harm in extending this out to the other platforms. But in a beginners case I think it would be easier to not have to translate the tools or workflow. I thought since modo is new to everyone it would be neat and very helpful to the new guys...like me :) Maybe even the vets could get something out of it.

WPTV
10-01-2004, 01:29 AM
Well if you have a character you want to start working on just post it and lets go. I couldn't really care what we model. I just want to get good at it.

eXpaintz
10-01-2004, 10:49 AM
I`m with U on this idea! lets not do korny stuff like bigboobed cheeks.Maybe we will try to model some old character model? what do You think?

leonard-davi
10-01-2004, 12:59 PM
good ideia ! actualy i modeling one robot to accustoming with modo interface . its one good way one litle model but complex geometry ... its good to get fast workflow and experience to make one character .. after this bot i gonna make one char .. if some one to want see the concept i post here.......... hugs

Nikola
10-01-2004, 01:18 PM
yeah I agree with old chracter model

maybe I could check my stored wire referencies pictures (front & side wire view) and find something a little bit simplier model 2 start with.

or maybe u 2 have something that ull like 2 model :)

but I can join as soon as I finish this model

I have some wire problems in shoulder area

http://smajky.on.neobee.net/ModoWip.jpg

leonard-davi
10-01-2004, 09:52 PM
cool model nikola
here is my first modo model ... its not finished but here is some layers and parts....
http://www.leonardodavi.com/timelapse/scan_timelapse.gif
hugs

WPTV
10-01-2004, 09:58 PM
so does anyone have any blueprints for a project to start working on?

Nikola
10-02-2004, 12:13 AM
Great "pod" concept and modelling leonard_davi :) I am sure that we could learn a lot of things from eachother :bounce: .

Just a thought :), maybe u could use edge weights for a sharp edges of the model.

greetnigs
Nikola

leonard-davi
10-02-2004, 12:20 AM
thnx nik... hey nikola how u use reference on the item preview ???

Nikola
10-02-2004, 12:48 AM
click on the right up window of any window :) scroll down and find item preview, afther that drug any pic in it :)
u can do it in any window u like or make urself a new one :)

Dion Burgoyne
10-02-2004, 01:05 AM
Here is a good site for some reference material

http://www.suurland.com/

Nikola
10-02-2004, 01:43 PM
hey WPTV something is wrong with ur loop thread, i can load it but with errors

http://www.secondreality.ch/ here u can find the best (for me) head modelling tutorial :)

http://smajky.on.neobee.net/MachoSketch_S.gif



http://smajky.on.neobee.net/MachoSketch_F.gif

It is for max but the technick is universal.

I cant wait 2 see 3D macho man :wise: (if u want 2 model him):eek:

thz for http://www.suurland.com/ Dion :)

greetings
Nikola

WPTV
10-02-2004, 07:45 PM
thanks for the images, ill give it a shot. i dont know whats wrong withh the edge loop thread but heres the pictures i posted...

http://www.thescrudevice.com/wire/1.jpg
http://www.thescrudevice.com/wire/2.jpg
http://www.thescrudevice.com/wire/3.jpg

Nikola
10-02-2004, 09:07 PM
hey,

Ill advice u :applause: 2 start again, put those pics as a reference in a beckdrop and follow the tut. Everything will be clear while u working :rolleyes: :) .

WPTV
10-03-2004, 05:39 AM
thanks for the advice. ill give it a shot then repost. hopefully less frustrated :buttrock:

WPTV
10-03-2004, 07:52 AM
Ok, i'm really starting to worry about this being so difficult for me, heh. Anyways, here's the start, I just wanted to see if this is on the right track so far because I seemed to just confuse myself more with the tutorial.

http://thescrudevice.com/head.jpg

WPTV
10-03-2004, 09:50 AM
update

http://thescrudevice.com/head2.jpg

Nikola
10-03-2004, 01:00 PM
no no do not make holes in the eye socket > folow the tut.

this vertex at the corner of the mounth is in the middle somewhere, later ull add detal.
Again follow the tut. and imagine that ur head is the head in the tut :)

Download whole tut on ur hard drive and read it whole slowly ull get answers why r u doin this things in the beggining:thumbsup:

dont give up, ull need 2 make 3 or 4 heads 2 get a very good head :eek:

Nikola
10-03-2004, 01:03 PM
I forgot the nose u will push him out later u dont need 2 make him now :)

WPTV
10-03-2004, 06:58 PM
ok, we must be thinking about two different tutorials, im using one i found on the internet. its not a movie. just pics and text. which are you thinking of? this might dispell some confusion.

kursad_pileksuz
10-03-2004, 07:33 PM
there is no one way of making a head, but possibly billions of ways of making a head. you can start from any point put any point anywhere as you please. only issue about this is that, you need to know why you put things at certain place and what are you going to with them later. i personally never follow a tut, and everytime i start a head i start different and finish different, and i do not even remember how i did the previous one , but i never was crazy about creating the ultimate digital head. but some people prefer other way which is making an ultimate way of creating a head or human figure, which is fine because since your purpose is perfecting the technique. to me technique is very imporant until the anatomy. because you cannot make an acceptable head without knowing technical issues even thou you may be crazy good head anatomy. but that is an easy thing to solve, after that artistic knowledge starts. but the idea is that everyone can model a head when they know certain things. especially after so many good modelling programs out there including modo.

WPTV
10-03-2004, 07:39 PM
well you kinda pointed out my problem, and why ive been trying to follow tutorials. I don't know why i'm doing what. especially with the tutorials. at least with the tutorials there is some rhyme or reason, and it gets you to the end. otherwise how would one learn to know why square 'a' goes next to square 'b' to eventually equal 'z'?

I know there is a million ways to make one shape. just don't know how to grab onto one way and stick to it without introducing another method. erg. :cry:

Nikola
10-03-2004, 07:56 PM
ok :)

This is the way how I have learn 2 model fairly good head, this technick was ok for me but it is maybe not for u?:shrug:

anyway search trough internet wach head wires, imagine how would they deform etc...

greetings
Nikola

eXpaintz
10-03-2004, 08:21 PM
Nikola I dont think there is only one way to do that, whatever will produce the right resoult is right! :)
it`s not dependant on tutorial ,only on youre own way to do things

bes regards

WPTV
10-03-2004, 10:16 PM
ok, since there is no one way to model. can someone point me in a good direction to find a way that works for me??

Nikola
10-03-2004, 11:00 PM
eXpaintz > did I sad this is the only way, hmmm where :) ;)

My point was only 2 help with a way I have learned nothing more or less :)

greetings
nikola

WPTV
10-04-2004, 12:04 AM
umm...can we get back to that helping part?

pabloD
10-04-2004, 01:20 AM
First I would like to say that this is a great idea. I hope we can keep this thread going.

Kursad is right about there being more than one way to model a character. I do understand why people would want to follow a structured tutorial though. It is especially helpful for learning the subtle nuances of a program's intended workflow.

I took a look at the tutorial. It's a cool technique and looks easy enough to follow in modo. Is there an easy way to download it all or do you just have to do it one page at a time?

Cool models Nikola and Leanard Davi.

Dion, that car sight is awesome!

WPTV
10-04-2004, 01:33 AM
oh sorry nikola. I'm an idiot. when i got those reference images from you i was just waking up and completely missed you left a link for a specific tutorial. ok, i'm going to try this again. i'll post some images when i have something going. thanks for the help!maybe i can help myself next time by paying more attention, or waking up before getting online. :applause:

hey if everyone like the idea of working on a model as a group, why not give the head thing a shot that nikola left for us? i'll be working on it.

leonard-davi
10-04-2004, 02:49 AM
WPTV keep working man ! try use some wires like reference to get one good noction of loops and topology ...
here is my model i make somes preview render in maya and wire..sorry about the size
http://www.leonardodavi.com/modo/scan_wire.jpg
http://www.leonardodavi.com/modo/scan_wip.jpg

WPTV
10-04-2004, 05:54 AM
ok, so i went through the majority of that tutorial. i think im starting to get it. but i do have one question. its more of a timesaver. i was wondering if there is a quicker way then using the knife tool to create edge loops like the ones in the attached image from the tut.

http://www.secondreality.ch/tutorials/modelling/pics_head/step27.jpg

Nikola
10-04-2004, 06:17 AM
yeah, edge bevel or loop slice :)

wow, its going great Leonard so many details :)

heres my stage till now, if u have any sugestions feel free 2 .... :)

http://smajky.on.neobee.net/raytrace2.jpg
http://smajky.on.neobee.net/raytrace3.jpg

Sbowling
10-04-2004, 12:05 PM
This guy has some very good free video turorials. They're lightwave, but should work with Modo pretty well. If I remmeber correctly he does not do the "box modelling" method and it may help out since you seem to be having so much trouble with it. Personally, I never got it and use a more "detail out" method of modeling, but I pretty much developed my own technique on that because tutorials were (and aparantly still are) very rare.


http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/

WPTV
10-05-2004, 12:24 AM
so i guess once everyone finishes their project we should decide on something to model as a group. we can start a new thread for every model we decided to do. i guess we should start thinking on what we'd like to do. i would think complexity shouldn't be an issue since we're here to learn....which that would leave more room for. let me know what you all think.

onimusqa
10-05-2004, 12:51 AM
This guy has some very good free video turorials. They're lightwave, but should work with Modo pretty well. If I remmeber correctly he does not do the "box modelling" method and it may help out since you seem to be having so much trouble with it. Personally, I never got it and use a more "detail out" method of modeling, but I pretty much developed my own technique on that because tutorials were (and aparantly still are) very rare.


http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/

I've seen one of his video where he specializes in spline modeling. A very good tutorial if you ever want a better understanding of splines. Unfortunately, modo's spline modeling is not as advance as Lightwave's where you can build a full spline cage and patch it. Modo's splines only allow you to connect splines at each end but you cannot build additional spline and attach it any where on another spline. You cannot add additional points to a spline, making it very difficult to build a spline cage. I wish they would add this feature on their next version.

WPTV
10-06-2004, 05:20 AM
ok, so everyone thinks this is a good idea but no one has any idea on something to model as a group? Of course i mean everyone models the same thing on their own and then we compare or ask questions during the process. Am I on my own here or do I just need to find something for us to do?

I saw under the WIPs thread a geiger alien someone was doing that looked amazing. I would love to do something like that, though as being new to this, I am a little intimidated by something that seems off the bat extremely complex. However, I don't want to do something useless, I'd like to reallly spend some time on something, learn good methods, learn modo (somewhat in depth) and get it customized. And when it's all done with have some great renders to keep.

So I ask again, any ideas?

visualride
10-06-2004, 04:18 PM
WPTV (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=103513): I like your idea.
To get this ball rolling I would suggest that, just like a real production, we submit artwork ideas to this thread, and give them a 1-10 rating based on how much we like the art, and if we think the picture looks do-able for the interested people in this thread. The cut off day to submit artwork could be say...Friday?

I like what Nikola and others have done so far, but it seems like they are more like works in progress to comment on, rather than shared projects.

I would like to see shared (posted) artwork, and as the project(s) evolve, and shared model files as well, or at least partial files. I would like to see it evolve like "Hey, I like the flow direction of your curves, but if you put in a row of edges here, you could smooth out that section", or "here's how you can clean up that section with less poly's, and have a better layout for animating it."

One last thing. Perhaps we should first limit our ideas to a type of model? Such as: Character, object,... Anyone care to comment?

WPTV
10-06-2004, 09:53 PM
perhaps someone with some experience has a suggestion that may be a good place to start?

Nikola
10-07-2004, 06:22 AM
hey,

I realy want 2 join, share files and everithing else, but in a week or maximum two. I need 2 animate this character also :)

WPTV if u r starter I think that Idea 2 begin with a complex object is not good for u. Lets find some simplier shape, but not 2 simple :)

Personaly I would like that we start 2 model a character :applause: :)

greetings
Nikola

Nemoid
10-07-2004, 07:19 AM
one of the best techniques for modelling in Lw and modo is actually box modelling. if u don't know it, check Todd Grimes dvd set .it explains how to build a char from box modelling, head, body etc. in a good way that u will able to redo in Modo too. he uses spin quad and makes no use of slicing, just because u can do that in lw , but it needs quads and tris to subpatch. correctly.search for them in www.flay.com (http://www.flay.com) do a simple search and u'll find'em.

modo doesn't have animation so i think the last 2 Grimes dvd are unuseful if u are a maya or xsi or max artist, but how he does the box modelling is very illuminatig. if well done it's the faster modelling technique for organics, and in modo , differently form Lw u will also be able to correct your mesh with edge removing , slicing etc.

i will post some modo box modeled heads as soon as i will open my website that is in the works.

p.s. other resources are userdelta's spinshift tutorials. if u do a search here in cgtalk u will find him and his website too. i currently don't have it at my disposal.

think that with this technique, a great artist like Taron is able to build a perfect head in Lw in about 20 mins. so u know what actually fast means!!!

a more normally talented artist could take 2 hours or so, but it's always fast as well.

visualride
10-07-2004, 04:42 PM
Along those lines Nemoid, I found this video (www.3dzealot.com (http://www.3dzealot.com)) to be very helpful in modeling some difficult parts of a human head: mouth, nose, and eyes. He (Dave Black) does this very well in Max using a few free plugins. After following this tutorial in Max, I decided to try it in Modo. It went even better in modo, because of the ease of creating Loop Slices (although setting up the symmetry can be a pain in the ass). He uses the edge extrude method. I'm still undecided between box modeling and edge modeling.

WPTV
10-07-2004, 06:13 PM
thanks for the suggestions. I'll check out those tutorials, maybe even end up buying some dvds.

As far as the character goes, thats cool with me. I don't have any ideas for characters really sketched out, but if you have some kinda of start maybe we could shoot the character back and forth make changes and such to our liking. Or if not aand you already have something thats fine with me to. I just want to get working and make some useful progress. I havve been doing a bunch of practicing, so hopefully by the time your ready (nikola) i'll have a few less hurdles to jump.

WPTV
10-08-2004, 08:01 AM
so here's crappy progress...i may end up buying those todd grimes dvds

http://www.thescrudevice.com/sux.jpg
:hmm:

Dion Burgoyne
10-08-2004, 06:11 PM
The shape of the model is good, however the flow of your polygons is not allowing for the details of the face that you're trying to create.

Think about your polygons like the lines on the reference image, if they are aligned and move along the same path, the polygons will be able to pull the image out. Wherever there is a hard line that the polygons run into there will be a hard stop to your contours... I'll edit this post with some examples...

umeetd
10-08-2004, 09:02 PM
Your progress so far seems good, though as Dion says you need to follow your reference images a bit more. The most important thing with modelling is following the flow of the surface. Look at your own face in a mirror and see which way the muscles and skin flow, this thread may also be of use to you.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=38469&page=1&pp=15

WPTV
10-08-2004, 09:49 PM
i guess it might help to have a top reference image. But I guess where i'm stuck is how to make the polys flow more with the image. it looks like the lines contour the image...to me anyways. what do you see?

Dion Burgoyne
10-08-2004, 10:12 PM
Here's a little more of what I mean.... In lack of a better analogy, think of the polygons like the trolly cars at Disneyland, to get around a corner they all curl along the path that the first car takes, if the car turns too sharply it gets all twisted up. Here are some examples....

http://www.afilmdream.com/modo/contour1.jpg

The edges outline the contour between the nose and the cheek...


http://www.afilmdream.com/modo/contour2.jpg

In this one the edges outline the smile lines on a persons face....

http://www.afilmdream.com/modo/contour3.jpg

Here is a piece of detail that can't be created unless the natural lines of the face are respected...

Where ever you see a lined detail of the reference image you need to respect that reference with the edges of polygons. As opposed to outlining the outside of the face only. You want to add enough geometry to do this as well.

It may be a good idea to start off with a smaller part of the face and work out from there, for instance, just do one eye.... try to capture all of the detail just around there, the amount of rounding that the eyeball causes, the eyelids and tear duct. The indentation next to the tear duct just before it starts to crawl up the nose. Try just a smaller part of the face instead of trying to see the whole thing in one shot.

WPTV
10-09-2004, 12:36 AM
Well first I have to tip my hat to you guys at Luxology. First off I was pretty surprised to see you guys being involved with your users like this. Secondly you sure as hell don't need to be helping any of us even this much, so for that I say thank you!

Thats a great looking model Dion. Are there any particular reference images that was used for that...that say could possibly be shared with us? That could help since I have these images you posted as a reference as to where I should be going with the model.

I might be asking for a lot, but I guess it's worth a shot. If you do have some good reference images maybe we could use those for the 'group modeling' idea.

Well, I guess it's off to working on small sections at a time. Again, thanks for the help!

Nikola
10-09-2004, 02:01 AM
smell of LW community is in the air

thank u Dion

WPTV
10-09-2004, 02:18 AM
what do you mean by that nikola?

WPTV
10-09-2004, 06:00 AM
well, heres another shot. definatly not looking like the pictures above that dion posted. this way i tried starting around the eyes and working out some. i dont know ifthis is working better or not.

http://www.thescrudevice.com/again.jpg

Nikola
10-09-2004, 11:08 AM
well, of all program specific communitues in the world, lw community is the most friendly and helpfull of all :)

WPTV
10-09-2004, 03:04 PM
ahh, well id have to say from the few posts i did make in the lightwave area sometime back i never got any help. especially non from newtek themselves. so in my opinion modo wins. :bounce:

yog
10-09-2004, 08:05 PM
Hi WPTV.
I think the main problem you are experiencing is in your planning and overall approach. No disrespect, it's mainly a matter of experience.
Try THIS (http://www.secondreality.ch/tutorials/modelling/head.html) link for for a good start to finish head modelling tutorial. It's for MAX, but there is nothing in it that cannot be applied to Modo. In fact as far as modelling goes there are very few tutorials out there that cannot be transfered from one application to another.

For a general tutorial on Sub division surfaces and how they can be laid out, THIS (http://maxrovat.sns.hu/subdiv/) link may be worth a look.

Keep plugging away, it all comes with practice. :thumbsup:

WPTV
10-10-2004, 03:40 AM
thanks yog. I bookmarked those tuts. I'm sure all this comes with time. maybe I'm just voicing my self frustrations more than others. I know all the tools and how to get around modo just fine, since I'm coming from lightwave. I've done plenty of lightwave work, but its mostly broadcast stuff. Primitive shapes and beveled text. I guess getting a grasp on a good flow of polygons modeling an object is tougher than I thought it would be. But i'll get there one of these days. I do have those todd grimes dvds coming, just in time for vacation, so that should keep me good and busy. Once the modo package shows up I'll be going through those videos as well.

Oh yeah, so anyone have a character idea for this group modeling thing? heh.

Nikola
10-10-2004, 05:24 PM
:)

if u have never worked with sub-d modelling try some simplier shape

http://209.132.69.82/uploaded_from_zbc/200407/user_image-1090060025hij.jpg

Highh res. http://www.designpicture.com/images3Dversion/pigfinal.jpg

This is Strike's piece of art :)

so u have all views and become more friendly with sub-d
(just a sugestion, I know that u r sick of sugestions :))

greetings
Nikola

WPTV
10-10-2004, 05:58 PM
haha, not reallly. alll the suggestions tips and advice i can get the better. :applause: thanks

intovidfilm2
10-11-2004, 04:18 PM
http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/projects.htm

Bam!

I'd like to know how to develop this type of fx from the ground up, the entire workflow.

Fairly new to 3d, but know some compositing.

It'd be great be able to learn how to do these types of FX shots.

btw, that hog is great

WPTV
10-13-2004, 05:47 AM
i guess this thread died :cry:

Nikola
10-13-2004, 08:01 AM
NO WAY! :)

I forgot about this tut. try it out...

its a point2point head modelling method, perfect for Modo!!!

http://67.15.36.49/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp

dont give up.. :) keep tryin

eXec
10-13-2004, 08:23 AM
some say that joanna darc is the best human model tutorial ever written :P
but my work always stops on the stomach. the problem with mirror in modo :/

Nikola
10-13-2004, 08:41 AM
wahts the problem exec

can u show me the picture

deleting one half of the model and mirror it again usualy makes it work

WPTV
10-14-2004, 01:34 AM
whoo. my modo box and todd grimes dvds just showed up. maybe i'll have something worth showing soon.

WPTV
10-15-2004, 08:14 PM
well i started working with those todd grimes dvds. I'm finally getting somewhere. It looks like my biggest issue is my approach, or lack thereof. I imagine its going to take quite a few shots, what I still don't understand is setting up the landscape of the model for future ares to add detail to. But hey at least my object is looking more like something now, and I can already tell moving points around that it deforms correctly, as if I were sculpting this model from clay.

whoo, progress is good. i'll post some pics once i get my web site onto a server again.

WPTV
10-16-2004, 06:15 PM
check it out, progress.....it's still a wip, so don't totally tear me a new one just yet :)

http://www.thescrudevice.com/model/model1.jpg
http://www.thescrudevice.com/model/model2.jpg

WPTV
10-18-2004, 01:39 AM
no comments or anything?

Griffon
10-18-2004, 01:48 AM
Well, it has only been a few hours on a Sunday. Plus, I don't see any images or links...

Griffon
10-18-2004, 04:13 AM
Ignore that last one. Apparently thier is something wrong with some embedded images since Firefox wasn't displaying yours.

It seems like a good start. I like the lips.

Nikola
10-25-2004, 12:59 AM
if anybody whants 2 start our "little project" :), well ... lets start :D .

Suggestion 1: Everyone can put there's blueprints (ill put mine tommorow) and lets get a deal what will we model :bounce: ?

Suggestion 2: maybe it will be better if that can be some cartoon character, becouse we wont have problems 2 deal with right proportions, what do u think???

lets get this thing work hehehe
Nikola

ps. offtopic (not finished, Motion Builders realtime OGL) http://smajky.on.neobee.net/Output.avi (http://smajky.on.neobee.net/Output.avi) :)

WPTV
10-25-2004, 10:44 PM
im ready. no ideas here though

Nikola
10-26-2004, 09:46 PM
Question for Administrators:

Am I allowed 2 post some other artists works 2 use them as a backdrops???

Nikola

WPTV
10-27-2004, 12:41 AM
i would guess why not. if there is a problem theyll just take it down. besides, its for educational purposes only, heh.

WPTV
10-29-2004, 06:23 PM
i doubt that admins read every page of every post. what about emailing the pics to everyone interested?

Nikola
10-29-2004, 07:51 PM
http://smajky.on.neobee.net/Woof.jpg

I cant remember the author :(

What do u think?

http://smajky.on.neobee.net/CreatureBox2.avi :)

WPTV
10-29-2004, 11:30 PM
ouch. now that i got some ice for that black eye i was just given...that was cool. looks like you spend a lot of time animating that. your jpg isnt working though.

Nikola
10-30-2004, 12:10 AM
hey

link is ok now

what do u think about the model, lets try 2 remodel it.

avi is motion capture :P

WPTV
10-30-2004, 08:36 AM
well damn, the motion capture is really cool. which model were you asking about the avi one or the dog guy one?

Nikola
10-30-2004, 02:43 PM
:)

lets remodel dog guy

is it ok with u?

we could open a new tread for this, if any of us post update we could say some words how did we achive this stage :) and maybe someone of theese forum ppl will direct us how 2 do it easier and more efficient mod(o)elling way :)

WPTV
10-31-2004, 01:47 AM
yeah thats fine with me, though im not crazy about the dog guy. i guess modeling is modeling though so lets do it. you have any good reference pics?

if so we'll open a new thread with the beginning post having the reference images for those who chose to participate. whoo.

WPTV
11-03-2004, 07:47 PM
so, um. is this thing dead again?

CGTalk Moderation
01-19-2006, 10:00 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.