R9 vs Meshsurgury modeling

[Srek]

Hi Jannis,
we are of course still working on stability but sadly many of the crashes are caused by OGL problems. You might like to try to disable OGL features to gain stability.
Several of the new features need OGL to work fast and usable (HUD, Highlighting) so not using OGL wasn't an alternative.
Cheers
Srek

[VagabondDead]

In regards to MS, you can find info regarding this on the forums (forum.peranders.com), but Paul and Pers say that they will be updating MS to work with 9 as soon as possible. They also hinted at some other things, but it's all available to read on the forums.

Cheers,
Josh

[obeardy]

I know that Maxon have been saying they did not intergrated MS in R9, just copied a few of their tools.
I've never read MAXON ever say that since its completely untrue, others have said it, but not MAXON afaik. R9 modeling tools were from user and tester feedback. MS had some influence for a number of reasons, one fact was that the developer was part of the team of people that put forward ideas for R9 and testing. R9 modeling is not intended as a replacement for MS, it was intended as an improvement in the modeling abilities of the core package. There is no reason IMO that MS can't be an advanced modeling system beyond that of R9. The very fact that areas of MS were not include should tell you that it was not copied. Modeling is an essential part of the core of CINEMA and is always going to be an area that MAXON address itself, it must do IMO.

[WQP]

Well i'm stuck in 8.5 land - but I've really been digging deeper into Mesh Surgery - and man it gets better & better - sounds like it's just as well I couldn't pony up the dough to buy R9 so far :) Perhaps fate will be with me and the day I find i have the money for R9 will be the day MS is released for it.

[Jannis]

I've never read MAXON ever say that since its completely untrue, others have said it, but not MAXON afaik. R9 modeling tools were from user and tester feedback. MS had some influence for a number of reasons, one fact was that the developer was part of the team of people that put forward ideas for R9 and testing.
I think this is a sticky point in which I do not want to get involved with (I have seen too many threads around the community stating things other than you) other than to say that for all of us who used MS there are an awful lot of similarities to be found in R9. Still this does not concern me, all I am interested in is a tool that works well. Cinema R9 does the job for me better than 8.5. However, MS is a plus I would not like to do without in the update.

To repeat myself, I do hope that they do develop it further.

regards

jannis

[Cactus Dan]

Howdy,

It seems there are some problems with running Mesh Surgery in R9.

http://www.postforum.com/forums/read.php?f=6&i=109675&t=109639

Adios,
Cactus Dan

[AdamT]

I'd also like to see MS go forward for the reasons mentioned above, but based on this, quoted from Postforum, it appears that it's not going to happen:

"Subject: Mesh Surgery for R9 no go!!
Author: rsquires (http://www.postforum.com/users.php?mode=profile&uid=5662) ( ---.mckinn1.vic.optusnet.com.au )
Date: 09-29-04 06:22


In reference to my search for plugin compatabilty with R9 I emailed Paul Everett about various plugins I have from him including the fantastic Mesh Surgery. Sadly I received this reply:



Hi Richard,

...

Mesh surgery doesnt work in r9, big problems there.Will require a rewrite
and im not sure that will be worth doing as they nicked most of the ideas we
had and put them in R9.

...

Paul Everett"


BTW, you can do interactive loop selection with the R9 knife and loop tools by holding down the LMB and dragging. Unfortunately the loops grow/shrink from the *middle* rather than the selection point so it's a fairly useless feature. Let's hope that can be addressed in an update.

[Ric535]

http://www.peranders.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=183

[nhytro]

Hmm in the link you posted, it is mentioned that one would have to pay for the update itself, there goes..I was hoping that the price would fall since most of the plugins capabilities have been ported to rel 9. :cry:

http://www.peranders.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=183

[flingster]

People even mentioning stability issues is bad bad news imo...whether is ogl or not...not good to see. This was one the my biggest worries, stability being affected.
:D

[LucentDreams]

Nicked is a nice choice of words by paul, very professional, especially since he knows who was involved in early testing. How easy it would be to accuse them of nicking a lot of tools form other apps too.

Fact is, yes a lot of tools in R9 are similar to MS, but a lot of things were left untouched (a few that I know could have been put in were left out too, like fuzzy smooth) They aren't trying to kill off MS, but do need to update their package as well to keep competing with the market. I do hope MS sees an update for R9, things like mesh brush, Fuzzy smooth, the hinge tools, these are unmatched in comparison, and a few tools work in very different ways, which some may prefer in c4d, and some may prefer in MS. Considering I was always told the biggest advantage of MS was its workflow, I don't see why duplicate tools can't be in the plugin still if they work "Better" then the inbuilt one too.

Same situation goes for the normal mapper plugin (and the rest of cosmetic surgery) Its a shame that remo did end up beating them to the punch in terms of releasing a normal map shader, but I don't see why we can't have a choice between the two, and the additional shaders in each package as well, would hate to lose a great ray marcher just because someone else has a package with one similar shader in it.

[Cactus Dan]

Howdy,

http://www.postforum.com/forums/read.php?f=6&i=109684&t=109639

Adios,
Cactus Dan

[rgwarren]

Mesh surgery doesnt work in r9, big problems there.Will require a rewrite and im not sure that will be worth doing... What is it with plug-ins and MAXON? It seems that with EVERY release the SDK radically changes and everyone has to re-write their plug-ins. This seems counter-productive and not really cost effective to be in the plug-in business writing for C4D.

I remember the troubles with the bhodinut stuff when 8.0 came out. I seem to remember Darf talking about how the API was totally different for that release. Is this the case with R9 as well?

These are the issues that keep me from purchasing plug-ins for C4D. I never know when support will drop with a new version of C4D.

[Erik Heyninck]

About the time R9 demo became available, Per Anders clearly said here on this forum that MSwould be updated for R9 but, because of the awful lot of work it would not be a free upgrade/update.

I can well understand that both Per Anders and Paul are facing a wall now that Maxon did include in R9 some of the most used tools of Mesh Surgery. High-end users will certainly upgrade their MS, but many other users, including new ones, won't see the necessity of it. So it is a question of the amount of work vs. the financial outcome.

Yet I am fully convinced that both have so much talent, insight and knowledge that they can include new, fascinating things, or that they can simply start a new suite with the old options in it and add new things.

Having no idea of any kind of agreement between both and Maxon -the idea there was none is hard to swallow- I feel lucky that I had my MS license. At least that makes mt artistic conscience a tad lighter.

[Ric535]

What is it with plug-ins and MAXON? It seems that with EVERY release the SDK radically changes and everyone has to re-write their plug-ins. This seems counter-productive and not really cost effective to be in the plug-in business writing for C4D.

I remember the troubles with the bhodinut stuff when 8.0 came out. I seem to remember Darf talking about how the API was totally different for that release. Is this the case with R9 as well?

These are the issues that keep me from purchasing plug-ins for C4D. I never know when support will drop with a new version of C4D.
well dont forget that the update from 8 to 9 is a very big one - a lot of stuff had to be rewritten, for example to incorporate ngons

[LucentDreams]

What is it with plug-ins and MAXON? It seems that with EVERY release the SDK radically changes and everyone has to re-write their plug-ins. This seems counter-productive and not really cost effective to be in the plug-in business writing for C4D.

I remember the troubles with the bhodinut stuff when 8.0 came out. I seem to remember Darf talking about how the API was totally different for that release. Is this the case with R9 as well?

These are the issues that keep me from purchasing plug-ins for C4D. I never know when support will drop with a new version of C4D.R8 saw significnt changes to how things worked, this is a fact of life when you make all thigns non modal, change how the niterface works with things and such, change how objects are linked (remember prior to R8 all things werre linked by names now they use ID's) Yes it can be difficult for thirdparty programmers, but even maxon themselves have to face the same difficulties. A lot of the new modeling tools I think are there as much because they had to be rewritten as they were fro mere improvements.

With R9, the biggest reason MS has issues is because of the drastic changes under the hood to modeling, and the addition of the ngons. Imagine how much nicer a lot fo the MS tools could be now too once they support ngons. Plugins developers though will see just how much the modeling SDK has been affected, hopefully making their lives a little easier in the future, but it does affect previous versions. Plugins not working in newer versions happens a lot with all the apps, have you ever read the maya forum when new versions come out. Man look at the free mel scripts and such, there are maya 4, 4.5, 5 and sometimes maya 6 versions of the same script, all ever so slightly different. Fact is progress often means changing the way things are done and that means plugins working off of those things need to update as well.

Ever notice how when a new version of windows comes out, a lot of programs are no longer supported and need to be updated, like maxon when OSX came out too. Welcome to the life of a developer, I don't envy them at all.

[bobzilla]

I think it's even more confusing when Maxon distributes a plugin themselves (Golum...CA plugin for $300!), then stops supporting/distributing, then comes out with MOCCA which I then have to purchase at an even higher price. Shouldn't there have been some kind of discount there?

I can't afford the upgrade right now, so I'll be sticking with MS anyway...

[obeardy]

What is it with plug-ins and MAXON? It seems that with EVERY release the SDK radically changes and everyone has to re-write their plug-ins.
'seems' maybe, but its not as simple as changes in the SDK, the SDK itself actually is backwards compatible in most cases, and even with XL7 to R8 which had major SDK changes was a fairly simple renaming task.

CINEMA XL7 to R8 was a fairly major update, the changes required to plugins depended heavily on what they did and how they wanted to update. The major change affecting plugins from XL7 to R8 was the UI, plugins did not have to change to modeless and the AM, but to do so needed extra coding.

Changes from R8 to R9 are not that many in the API, there are lots of new areas but most plugins should still work unless they directly used modeling tools (which have all now changed). This is the main area that has been affected, if they did not directly use the pre-R9 tools than there should be few if any changes needed and XL7 and R8 plugins can still run under R9 without any changes at all.

Sometimes plugins don't work simply because they used hacks into the API or made bad assumptions. Sometimes they don't work because an area of CINEMA had to be changed to extend what CINEMA can do. Its not as simple as blaming the SDK.

Writing plugins for commercial gain is always a tricky and delicate situation and no matter what API you are using (MAXON or others) at times you must simply make rewrites or changes. An API changing should rarely (if ever) mean you need to rewrite something from scratch unless you are only using the functions/tools available from that API, your own code/algorithms are not affected at all.

One of the main reasons I've seen for plugins not working in R9 is simply that they have their serial numbers locked to the CINEMA serial number for protection.

[RangTang]

In the short term if the MS team could just strip-out the non-working parts and include what seems to work in v.9 I would be short-term happy. I use the XYZ perspective views all of the time. Even if none of tools worked I want to see those beautiful MS icons on my toolbar.

[marshalartist]

I would really like to able to use the Hinge tools in MS, they are incredibly useful, I hope they can be released seperately, I would even pay a small upgrade price to use these on their own. If this is the end of MS it stinks, and some arrangement should be made between plug-in developers and Maxon in future where the intensions of each are made known to one another to avoid disputes like this, and to stop the end user getting ripped off!

Peter

[flyingP]

I would find it a pity if it doesn't get updated, it is a fantastic plugin, but in the end it is up to Per and Paul to decide whether or not they want to develop it further. In the meantime I find "I can" work very well with the tools in R9 even if there are a few things from MS I still like to have back.

[AdamT]

The surprising thing to me is that just about every other plugin I know of still works fine in R9. It's not surprising that MS got broken, since it's all about modeling and the modeling core had to be rewritten to support ngons.

You either get new features in the core program or endless plugin compatibility--you can't have it both ways.

[rgwarren]

I've written plug-ins for After Effects and Director. Those API's haven't changed much for a couple of versions. But then again there wasn't a need to change the API because the core app didn't radically change. Cinema offers so much with each release I guess it's foolish to even think that the SDK would be the same when TONS of new features are added.

Hopefully, the SDK and details were communicated to developers during the beta phase. I think a strong plug-in community will help grow Cinema just as much as new features. I know a few people that measure an application's popularity by how many plug-ins are available.

Personally, I think a plethora of plug-ins might just indicate the app is lacking. Two sides to every picture.

[rizon]

Personally i think businesswise it's not ok, people will buy plugins less often from a certain developer when they know or assume their plugs won't be usefull in future upgrades. Me for instance love MS and was doubting to buy storm tracer also, but now i am going to wait and see what happens with MS.
Again MS really rocks and would love to see the upgrade... respect to the developpers.

[Silverdog]

Just to put in my two cents; I love C4D and MS. I cannot affordto upgrade to V9 at the present, but I certainly hope that when the time comes, I will be able to take MS with me. I would have no hesitation in paying for an upgrade to MS for Per Anders and Paul have put a lot of fine work into the plugin and deserve to be compensated for any required rewriting.

Like Flingster, I am concerned about C4D's stability. One more reason I won't push to get V9 in a hurry. Am willing to wait for a patch from Maxon should it be necessary.

I'm thinking positive.........I want C4D 9 and MS both! :thumbsup:

[Siddhy]

Personally i think businesswise it's not ok, people will buy plugins less often from a certain developer when they know or assume their plugs won't be usefull in future upgrades. Me for instance love MS and was doubting to buy storm tracer also, but now i am going to wait and see what happens with MS.
Again MS really rocks and would love to see the upgrade... respect to the developpers.
I feel exactly the same. I'd love to buy StormTracer, but i'm not sure about what the future brings. I have MS and i definately want to use it in R9. But the comments by paul on 10comm (no further updates) and the recent (truly understandable) words about maxon let me hesitate and evaluate other ways. I simply can't understand why there wasn't even a symbolic payment to 3rdparty for some MS integration to make this understandable for the users and encouraging for plugins devs. All this talk about its not an exact copy of the tools is blabla for me, sorry.

[Kirl]

Pretty much sums up my thoughts, Siddhy...

[Cybergooch]

Well as long as we're putting our 2 cents in, I gotta say I find this whole thread a little bit silly.

First off, I find it kind of strange that there's this attitude that Maxon "ripped off" Mesh Surgery. If you've ever worked with any other 3D packages, a core program that incorporates workflow enhancements that have been developed by third party plugins is the norm, not the exception. More importantly, things like Ring Selection, Loop selection, Loop cutting, a good Slice tool, Normal move, rotate and scale tool, etc. are things that have been available in other 3D apps for a while now.

So how should Maxon handle this? Maxon Dude #1:"Let's see...every other 3D app can do loop cuts and slices and stuff like that. Let's add it to the next release."

Maxon Dude #2: "No, we can't. There's a third party plugin for C4D that does that already."

Now I'm not trying to minimize the importance of Mesh Surgery. Yes, I bought it, and Yes, I will gladly pay the update fee if and when a v9 MS upgrade is announced. But if Maxon avoided adding any new features to the core functionality based on the fact that it does the same thing that 3rd party plugins have done, that would just be screwy.

The important thing is that Mesh Surgery did, and still does, offer workflow enhancements that go beyond C4D's base abilities, as it should be.

It seems like being a 3D software developer is a no-win situation. If you don't upgrade and improve enough, your user base will bitch endlessly about how you are falling behind. If you DO make major improvements (which will invariably break a few things) everyone bitches because their old plugins don't work. It's not an enviable position to be in.

And as for the people that say they won't buy plugins because they don't know what the future holds, I can't say as I really understand that, either. Plugins are like Shareware in general. You pay your money, and you take your chances. There is no guarantee that any piece of software that you buy is going to be supported in the future. In the case of plugins, if you buy one for a job or two and it really helps you out, then it will probably pay for itself very quickly. If you're a true hobbyist and you have no intention of going Pro or even making some cash on the side, then it becomes a more difficult decision...is it worth it if it's just something you're going to play around with? Only you can put a value on that.

I also don't see why Maxon owes any kind of payment to a 3rd party developer. Should Maxon pay every plugin developer whenever a new plugin is developed? Or every time something in a plugin is duplicated in the core program? Is it a two-way street? Should plugin developers be forced to pay a percentage of their sales to Maxon since the plugins are "riding on the coat-tails" of the core app?

Ok, that turned out to be more of a rant than a 2 cents worth, but I was kind of discouraged by what looked like mudslinging, which doesn't accomplish anything concerning either Maxon or any plugin developers.

In the meantime, I look forward to all the cool things we'll be seeing in the future brought to us by those awesome plugin writers, and also all the cool stuff we'll see from Maxon in the future...even when the 2 cross paths and overlap.

[laiels]

It seems as if the primary concern of not updating Mesh Surgery for version 9 is the question of profitability. Will the financial reward be worth all the hard work it takes to update Mesh Surgery? I personally don't own Mesh Surgery, but I have hear wonderful things about it including people claiming that Cinema 8.5 w/ Mesh Surgery is the best modeller out there. It also seems that while R9 has incorporated alot of the functionality of Mesh Surgery, it's still not as efficient as using Mesh Surgery in terms of workflow. In addition, many of you have expressed the willingness to pay for an update. That being said, maybe a petition/thread can be started so that those of you who want and are willing to pay for a Mesh Surgery update can post your support for development of this plugin. If enough interest is shown, perhaps Per-Anders and Paul Everett can be convinced of the financial viability of updating the plugin and then everyone in the Cinema 4d community can be happy.

[dfaris]

I love MS and I was thinking about Storm but I have to worry that if Maxon puts out a update for TP or pyrocluster will Storm continue to be supported? I like what those guys have done with MS and storm and I know as well as everyone else does that 3D companys will always improve there app. I think it up to the plugin developers to keep there apps better then the companys app/tools if they want people to keep buying them. If they decied not to develop the plugin anymore then that is there choice and I thank them for doing it the first time.I have an idea for Per-Anders and Paul Everett: make a set of plugins that improves C4D animation and rigging tools so that they are more like messiah or even Animation master and you will have a plugin that I would bet will be around for a long time.

[Neoklassik]

Hmm. I was thinking more along the lines of Cactus Dan and Stray (and maybe Fabian?) getting together and making a super rigging thing, maybe even take over Bonderland? Per and Paul have proven to be quite effective working together. :)
I think they (The Third Party) have a lot on their plate already. From what Maxon has said about the modeling tools, they were just bringing them up to speed with other apps. Also, ngons was one of the most requested features. So Maxon revamped Cinema to take advantage of ngons and added modeling tools to boot. I don't see a lot of call for Storm like functions though in the feature requests threads. So I doubt Maxon would spend the time in development.
Per has also said that both MS and Storm would be supported, and in fact the next revision of Storm is right around the corner and it looks very cool. I guess what I'm trying to say is not to worry and invest in Storm if you need fast powerful particle tools. They also have mentioned another plug for texturing I think.. so if they have rigging tools in mind I'm sure it's wayyy down the pipe.


I love MS and I was thinking about Storm but I have to worry that if Maxon puts out a update for TP or pyrocluster will Storm continue to be supported? I like what those guys have done with MS and storm and I know as well as everyone else does that 3D companys will always improve there app. I think it up to the plugin developers to keep there apps better then the companys app/tools if they want people to keep buying them. If they decied not to develop the plugin anymore then that is there choice and I thank them for doing it the first time.I have an idea for Per-Anders and Paul Everett: make a set of plugins that improves C4D animation and rigging tools so that they are more like messiah or even Animation master and you will have a plugin that I would bet will be around for a long time.

[flyingP]

so if they have rigging tools in mind I'm sure it's wayyy down the pipe.

just on a side note here with regards to the rigging, but I've just been spending the last day or so playing with Mocca in the update... I definitely wouldn't under rate it, you still need to work your way into it (no magic button) but personally on a first impression I'm finding it's pretty damn cool.

[flingster]

whether we perceive a copy of MS in R9 is not really important the questions that should be asked are: is it profitably to Third Party to keep updating it or not...and whether the whole process of implementing a toolset like this in R9 has actually soured the relationship between another plugin developer and maxon and will they continue developing for c4d. Its clear they feel their MS suite has been copied so no amount of denials from maxonians will help in this regard. Hopefully they will continue with renewed vigour but i can understand it if they didn't.
good luck to them either way because some software community will benefit from there experience and creativity for sure. One thing to note is i've certainly had my moneys worth out of MS and would like to see a V2 anyways.:thumbsup:

[Jannis]

Its clear they feel their MS suite has been copied so no amount of denials from maxonians will help in this regard.
Personaly speaking I think you are right.

However, I am glad they did copy MS because R9 is a better tool for it. My regret is that they did not copy it far enough and they definately did not improve on it. As someone already said most of the tools, not all of them, did exist for a long time out there, the workflow though did not. The workflow of MS is superb.

Still, as I said at the start of another thread that has gone all over the shop, I do hope they develop it further.

One last point, application development has not only to do with funtions but it also has to do with style, workflow understanding and ergonomics. However well Maxon copies MS into their app Third party have an excellent understanding of all the above points. To this Visual Selector and MS are a testiment. The guys have a flair which should be encouraged by Maxon in my opinion.

regards

jannis

[RangTang]

MS is so great because of the look, feel, and workflow of the tools they developed. Maxon is wee bit dense to reinvent the tools that were already there and step on the toes of the previous developers. But, it is not about stealing their ideas, that is way too strong to describe the situation. I think the people who have Mesh Surgery would continue to use it in v.9 based on look and feel. I think they could attract a lot more customers with a demo. Cinema 4D has a user base that comes from the applications usefulness, Mesh Surgery is part of that usefulness and without it there are many modeling opitions missing. In general, a big part of the relationship between a programs ownership and its plugin developers is corporate size. Discreet and Adobe buyout plugin developers because they have deeper pockets. I think that is a limited option for Maxon.

[AdamT]

Just a few scattered thoughts since this topic has been covered pretty well above:

* Seems the statement that MS would have to be rewritten supports Maxon's decision to go it alone. Why buy a plugin that you're going to have to rewrite anyway--especially when it's unfamiliar code that you would first have to decipher;

* OTOH, it would have been nice if there had been some arrangment regarding the intellectual property aspect--a purchase of the specific MS workflow, superflange, and loop algorithms which I agree are superior in MS;

* There should be more to product support than a straight calculation of how much money you're going to make on an update vs. the work involved. As a consumer and businessman I have to evaluate whether my purchase is going to have value for a year or two or whether it's a longer-term investment. It appears that MS and now Surface Painter won't be updated for R9+ and that certainly goes into the hopper as I decide whether to invest $400-500 on a NET-enabled version of Storm Tracer.

[JDP]

algorithms which I agree are superior in MS;

* . It appears that MS and now Surface Painter won't be updated for R9+ and that certainly goes into the hopper as I decide whether to invest $400-500 on a NET-enabled version of Storm Tracer.

What doesn't work in Surface painter? I tested it out and it seemed to work for me.

[flingster]

Just a few scattered thoughts since this topic has been covered pretty well above:

* Seems the statement that MS would have to be rewritten supports Maxon's decision to go it alone. Why buy a plugin that you're going to have to rewrite anyway--especially when it's unfamiliar code that you would first have to decipher;

* OTOH, it would have been nice if there had been some arrangment regarding the intellectual property aspect--a purchase of the specific MS workflow, superflange, and loop algorithms which I agree are superior in MS;

* There should be more to product support than a straight calculation of how much money you're going to make on an update vs. the work involved. As a consumer and businessman I have to evaluate whether my purchase is going to have value for a year or two or whether it's a longer-term investment. It appears that MS and now Surface Painter won't be updated for R9+ and that certainly goes into the hopper as I decide whether to invest $400-500 on a NET-enabled version of Storm Tracer.
jannis was right that R9's implementation of parts MS makes R9 the better for it. But crucial things like superflange were missed out and maxon developing on tool functions like this would have been better...no one seriously is doubting R9 modelling tools can't hack it cos its obvious they are top stuff...but in a way opportunity was missed...and i'll explain why before someone shoots me..heh heh. basically we have a lesser than MS capability..rather than a more than MS capabilty in R9...the tools are exceptional as a result but they are not groundbreaking which is what they could have been (subject to time as always) if they had licensed ideas like superflange and adapted functionality into c4d workflow/gui. don't get me wrong these things in R9 are very nice but fill gaps in modelling from a while ago..they don't lift the bar for dedicated modelling apps out there.

as to stormtracer this is a really dilemma for maxon, developers and users...

developers don't want to see there ingenuity being lifted for each new maxon release so therefore no plugin sales as users wait for maxon to implement it

maxon want continued developer support but are accused of lifting developers ideas

users think why bother buying the plugin..it'll be along in R10! and support will be stopped anyways

no one wins from this...
definitely needs considering by all parties.
how its resolved i'm not sure really..in a way the genie is out of the bottle so to speak.

if i see and need a particular plugin i'll buy it anyways...because if you'd don't buy it the developer will definitely not continue supporting it as he isn't selling it! heh heh.
so if you have a need for stormstracer and like the idea my advice is get it because you'll get a year and a halfs usage out of it anyways even if maxon implement it, and you'll be supporting continued development of whatever third party release next..which is no bad thing and will make you all warm inside as well has having clients with cutting edge effects in there orders which'll keep them happy.

anyways i've no doubt maxon has more to come on the modelling front anyways, and third party still have stormtracer to fund development.:thumbsup:

[AdamT]

Hmm, I just saw this at Postforum:

"I am very sad, Paul Everett told me :

"Surface painter will not run in r9.
I will also not be updating this plugin to run in R9.
Sadly I can not justify another rewrite as only 30 people ever purchased
the r7->r8 update."

But I just tried it in R9 and it *does* seem to work. Maybe there's some function that's not right but I haven't found it yet. Strange.

[JDP]

Hmm, I just saw this at Postforum:

"I am very sad, Paul Everett told me :

"Surface painter will not run in r9.
I will also not be updating this plugin to run in R9.
Sadly I can not justify another rewrite as only 30 people ever purchased
the r7->r8 update."

But I just tried it in R9 and it *does* seem to work. Maybe there's some function that's not right but I haven't found it yet. Strange.

As I said above I tested out and it seemed find, this was with the demo. I just tried it out again on my paid copy of R9 and it paints the first stroke fine after that any additional strokes causes C4d to crash. :(

[dfaris]

just on a side note here with regards to the rigging, but I've just been spending the last day or so playing with Mocca in the update... I definitely wouldn't under rate it, you still need to work your way into it (no magic button) but personally on a first impression I'm finding it's pretty damn cool.
I have not really messed with Mocca in R9 yet. Can you tell me some of the things that you like more about it?

[wuensch]

same here, Surface Painter crashes c4d--
sad news he wont update, its a terrific plug.

Paul of course has to decide where to put his work time, I understand he has to let go some of his works in favour for the new (and profitable) plugs like stormtracer (which I am considering to buy at some point).
MS was the absolute Uber-Plugin due to teh massive update of the modellingtools, and i miss hinge move/rotate and superflange and the better soft-selections, but to be honest the R9 modelling improvements, though not as cool as MS with the tools with similarities, kick ass on its own.
I just did a couple of jobs with R9 and once used to the new tools, they are hi-quality and fast workflow.
Tweakmode is 100% cool.
selection auto-conversion is superb.
The knife is different than MS (definitely not a copy) but nice on its own (cutting holes),
Brush is maybe the feature most MS like and much weaker than MS brush.but it was inspired by Z-brush, anyway, so I dunno if copied is the right word for it.in the end some features are just in the air--.
Maybe Per and Paul should copy the cool Mesh-paint tool from Silo, I would absolutely spend money for that in Cinema.

Olli

[dfaris]

Hmm, I just saw this at Postforum:

"I am very sad, Paul Everett told me :

"Surface painter will not run in r9.
I will also not be updating this plugin to run in R9.
Sadly I can not justify another rewrite as only 30 people ever purchased
the r7->r8 update."

But I just tried it in R9 and it *does* seem to work. Maybe there's some function that's not right but I haven't found it yet. Strange.
Oh man that really sucks. I love surface painter this is something that could be updated because there is nothing like it on R9. Well at least part of it works.

[LucentDreams]

Kai's PLAY BY PLAY


First the majority of users complain that maxon ruipped off Third Party
A few users then retaliate justifying maxons need to improve its tools and such
Now users seem to be complaining that maxon didnt copy the tools right


Oh the irony, you guys are too much. Its these differences these lackings that justify why MS is still needed and useful. And one thing about superflange, thats one thing maxon wouldn't go near, dunno if Paul and Per have a patent on it yet, but I know they tried to get the patent pending, so its a dangerous area for anyone to get into because its something truly original thats hard dispute, most the other stuff (fuzzy smoth was another pretty original one) exists in other applications and such to some extent, workflow will differ but basic concepts don't, so maxon as much copied MS as they did other apps (same goes for MS istelf)

They developed their own original versions of these tools, thats why they are different, if maxon makes a similar tool they get nailed for copying and nailed for not copying, thats just too funny. They are screwing the plugin developers and not screwing them well enough.



As for mocca II, dunno if you want that to get lost in this thread dfaris, maybe start a new thread or try finding an older related thread to continue from and I'll gladly post in it but here it will get lost in the funny debate. (least their is more DEBATE here then the US electoral debate last night)

[AdamT]

As I said above I tested out and it seemed find, this was with the demo. I just tried it out again on my paid copy of R9 and it paints the first stroke fine after that any additional strokes causes C4d to crash. :(Very strange. I'm able to paint multiple strokes without any problems--so far.

[adeptus minor]

Please tell me I am wrong but they are not going to update MS for R9 if thats so it sucks I just bought it not even 2weeks ago.

[Jannis]

Kaiskai,
First the majority of users complain that maxon ruipped off Third Party
A few users then retaliate justifying maxons need to improve its tools and such
Now users seem to be complaining that maxon didnt copy the tools right

They developed their own original versions of these tools, thats why they are different, if maxon makes a similar tool they get nailed for copying and nailed for not copying, thats just too funny. They are screwing the plugin developers and not screwing them well enough.


I think that sometime in your eagerness to defend Maxon you seem to miss the point. I personaly am happy if Maxon rips off everyone if this means that they give me a better app for my money. This is nothing uncommon as lots of people have already said. Every software does it, as the saying goes "imitation is th best form of flatery". Having said that as consumers we do have the right to express our concerns about having to invest on the development of our software (both Cinema and Meshsurgury). Alot of us here are not hobyists but we are making our living out of this and OK, moaning about things is a bit boring but here we are talking about investment (in my case) both financial but also in terms of the learning curve. In your case in particular as a tester (for both R9 and MS if I am not mistaken) it is easy to adopt this superior approach.

Maybe you should try to be less critical and kind to all those who do spend their hard earned money and maybe at times if you can't be kind it is kind to be silent.

I am sorry to adopt this kind of tone, but I have had this kind of debate with you before over at Creative Cow. Maybe you should learn from testers like Arntd and Adam who are always kind and balanced.

regards

jannis

[AdamT]

I guess it's not clear what they're going to do with MS. Per-Anders posted that it would be updated and that there would be a small upgrade fee, but more recently Paul told someone that it didn't look like it was going to happen. I would contact the developers directly, either by e-mail or through the Third-Party forums.

[flingster]

i got surface painter...but at least if paul doesn't do an update i can use something like ditools dipainter...then get dicloner to recognise the placertag and voila or even convert the points to spline and alsorts or stuff including scale etc. i thought dpack also had something like that but can't remember...also bare in mind they may add it to something like MS 2...dunno. just a thought if any have these plugins instead.
:shrug:

[Per-Anders]

So far I have refrained from posting in this thread as certain people love to jump down both my and Pauls throats if we ever do.

However now I really do feel I must post to curtail some of the misinformation that's being posted.

Firstly, at no point have either me or Paul ever said there will not be an update to Mesh Surgery, Paul has vented in private emails to certain people his feelings about the issues at hand which it appears have then been posted on public forums as statement of intent.

Secondly, please use, search and post in the Third Party forum where possible, niether CGTalk nor Postforum idle chitchat, comments or conjecture by non Third Party personelle represent official statements by The Third Party.

Thirdly, to reiterate our official statement as it currently stands :

The Third Party are currently working on the Mesh Surgery for R9 update amongst other things. There will be a small fee for the update when it is released. Notification will be posted in The Third Party Forums News section when it is released but not before then.

[AdamT]

Good news. :applause:

[Cartesius]

Good news. :applause:
Yep! :)

/Anders

[tapaul]

Just a few scattered thoughts since this topic has been covered pretty well above:
* There should be more to product support than a straight calculation of how much money you're going to make on an update vs. the work involved. As a consumer and businessman I have to evaluate whether my purchase is going to have value for a year or two or whether it's a longer-term investment. It appears that MS and now Surface Painter won't be updated for R9+ and that certainly goes into the hopper as I decide whether to invest $400-500 on a NET-enabled version of Storm Tracer.product support?
straight calculation ?
evaluate whether my purchase is going to have value for a year or two?
long term investment?


hallo...reality check please, this is plugins for cinema 4d.
be realistic.Based on your buying criteria , you really should not buy any plugins.Whoever makes a plugn that you buy will be bankrupt after supporting you free of charge for the rest of his life.

If i make any plugin , I can not ever garantee that it will be available in a future generation of cinema4d.That is totally unrealistic to expect from a small developer selling
10/15 plugins per month.


Ms will get updated. it will get updated when we have time to do so.Please consider that we both have to eat.And updating a plugin with a very cloudy future is not a good way to put dinner on the table.It had a very rosy future , but for reasons beyond our control its market hole was promtly filled by the host application.

Im not gonna go into details about the argument with MS/Maxon.It goes without saying that we are in a lose, lose situation.

Paul Everett

[AdamT]

hallo...reality check please, this is plugins for cinema 4d.
be realistic.Based on your buying criteria , you really should not buy any plugins.Whoever makes a plugn that you buy will be bankrupt after supporting you free of charge for the rest of his life.

If i make any plugin , I can not ever garantee that it will be available in a future generation of cinema4d.That is totally unrealistic to expect from a small developer selling
10/15 plugins per month.Reality check your own self my friend. Yes, if I buy a plugin that costs in the neighborhood $500 (Storm + NET) then I damn sure do have a reasonable expectation (not a guarantee of course) that it will be supported longer than the time it takes for my check to clear. This is around the same cost as Cinema, Photoshop, and other not-cheap applications. But unlike those apps it's viability depends upon it being updated to work in a host application. Based on those criteria I feel reasonably safe buying expensive plugins (or helper apps) from established companies like E-On, Kaydara, Next Limit, etc. Otherwise, maybe if there's an immediate need that will pay the tab and there's no reasonable alternative. In other words, if I'm going to buy professional quality software that's priced accordingly then I expect some degree of professionalism from the developer. I guess I must be crazy.

[Silverdog]

Thank You Third Party!! Your concern and efforts are definitelyappreciated!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[tapaul]

Reality check your own self my friend. Yes, if I buy a plugin that costs in the neighborhood $500 (Storm + NET) then I damn sure do have a reasonable expectation (not a guarantee of course) that it will be supported longer than the time it takes for my check to clear. This is around the same cost as Cinema, Photoshop, and other not-cheap applications. But unlike those apps it's viability depends upon it being updated to work in a host application. Based on those criteria I feel reasonably safe buying expensive plugins (or helper apps) from established companies like E-On, Kaydara, Next Limit, etc. Otherwise, maybe if there's an immediate need that will pay the tab and there's no reasonable alternative. In other words, if I'm going to buy professional quality software that's priced accordingly then I expect some degree of professionalism from the developer. I guess I must be crazy.




what do you want from me/per?
why so hostile?
because of MS ????
storm?
Surface painter?
some other plugin that you may have purchased a few years back?
what is making you crusade like this?

You must know that it is not realistic to expect us to be like kaydara ,Adobe ot Next Limit.
they sell x hundred/thousand boxes per month.currently storm sells maybe 10 copies per month.That is reality my freind.If you think either of us are somehow rich or well sorted , you must think again.


where are these corperate plugin developers?They dont exist.If they did they would go bust paying the office rent and phone bill.
Your vision of how we should conduct our afairs shows a certain disconection to the reality of the cinema plugin scene.I am happy that I can live, eat and pay the rent. There is no room for corperate attitude at this level, not becuase I/we dont want it , but because there is no margin to do this.You have to stay on the ground in this game and not pretend that is something that it never will be.



Paul Everett

[AdamT]

Sorry you think I'm being hostile--that's certainly not my intention, nor am I on any kind of crusade! I think you and Per do awesome work which is why I own most of your plugins, would recommend them to anyone and in fact have and do on a regular basis. The only issue I have is the price of the Storm NET license. I'm not criticizing you for it as you're absolutely free to charge whatever you think is appropriate. All I'm doing is stating my thought process as I consider whether to invest in it. Some developers pay good money for that kind of marketing research. :) I have other thoughts about it (marketing), but as you guys seem to take any discussion along these lines personally I'll refrain from commenting.

[adeptus minor]

Sorry you think I'm being hostile--that's certainly not my intention, nor am I on any kind of crusade! I think you and Per do awesome work which is why I own most of your plugins, would recommend them to anyone and in fact have and do on a regular basis. The only issue I have is the price of the Storm NET license. I'm not criticizing you for it as you're absolutely free to charge whatever you think is appropriate. All I'm doing is stating my thought process as I consider whether to invest in it. Some developers pay good money for that kind of marketing research. :) I have other thoughts about it (marketing), but as you guys seem to take any discussion along these lines personally I'll refrain from commenting.

I understand what both of you are saying here. I just felt I needed to make a comment before for it gets hot. I understand what adam is saying here and I think he is just concerend about spending $500 dollars on something that could be adopted by C4D in the next update, I mean why not save money on the update. This is a bad situation becuase its no good for third party developers. I think Maxon really needs to work plugin developers as they are the reason we get alot of what we want sooner and a lot of the time better. But we just need a little reassurance a little presence in the forum a little sooner before these kind of threads get desperate. I think we know whats going on now with you/per troubles updating MS and Maxon updating its tools which in some ways is good but not in regards to this. I hope Maxon helps the little guys grow and make C4D a better program. just my 2 cents

[LucentDreams]

I think that sometime in your eagerness to defend Maxon you seem to miss the point. I personaly am happy if Maxon rips off everyone if this means that they give me a better app for my money. This is nothing uncommon as lots of people have already said.

Maybe you should try to be less critical and kind to all those who do spend their hard earned money and maybe at times if you can't be kind it is kind to be silent.

I am sorry to adopt this kind of tone, but I have had this kind of debate with you before over at Creative Cow. Maybe you should learn from testers like Arntd and Adam who are always kind and balanced.

regards

jannisDid you read my posts carefully, I haven't chosen a side here jannis, I've simply pointed out how most (not alll) of the users here have a huge contradiction and would be better suited just getting to work then fighting against both developing sides. YOu are one who has chosen one specific route, thats good, but others unlike you, feel maxon shouldn't have made similar tools, and yet also feel they should have done a better job of it. I've stated a few times in this thread how good certain areas of MS are and how I still see the advantage of it being developed and sold for R9 so I don't see how I'm one siding with maxon. I, like you see it fit for maxon to develop the same tools, unlike you though I acknowledge that its not a matter or them attacking MS specifically and ripping their tools specifically. It would have been impossible for maxon to make new modeling tools without making similar tools, lets be frank thats what most of MS was about, tools missing from cinema that we needed, maxons going to see the need to do the same thing, at the same time, they can't take everything, some things would be a matter of stealing, like fuzzy smooth and superflange, its hard for any app to add those tools since its prety clear those are originals, and at least one is clearly stated to be patent pending. to add such tools would lead to a lawsuit neither would like to have to deal with. My whole posting point was to show those who can't make up their mind that they are contradicting themselves and accomplishing nothing. If everyone said boo hiss on maxon, then maybe theyd learn not to do it, if everyone congratulated maxon, then maybe they'd know it was the way to go, but when everyone says "don't screw the plugin developers" and then also says "you didn't screw them enough" what the heck are they trying to say?

That said, Per has clearly stated here (though I agree to those who it really concerns the answer was on their forum where any customer should check before they check here) so we all know whats going on, and really the whole maxon/MS thing should have been left out in the first place. Does it really matter though, everyones going to use MODO for modeling from now on for 900 bucks right ;) (man who thought up those prices for a modeler)

Now then whos interested in an update to ST or a release of Cosmetic surgery (I really hope not to lose the ray marcher smong the other nice ones in there)