PDA

View Full Version : Modo workflow questions


visualride
09-28-2004, 09:15 PM
I have a list of questions regarding workflow in Modo.

1. Can I avoid (configure) having to click inside a viewport first to make it active to use my pie menus? It seems like Modo should recognize the mouse position for this. Also it would be nice to not have to re-click on my hot key to bring back up the pie menu for my next action.

2. As others have mentioned in this forum, having to click on a tool hotkey to change selections can be a little bit like finger gymnastics. Bouncing my pinky up and down while holding down the R key is harder than a lot of piano fingering that I'm trying to learn. I don't want to have to take my hand off of my pen/mouse for this. How about changing the selection set with the Axis Rotate tool?!?

With the next questions , hopefully, I'm just making beginners mistakes.

3. When I press the maximize 3d viewport button (0 on the key pad) my shading options all reset (workplane view, shading, grid, ...) back to the way the view port was before it was maximized. How do I make these view setups stay?

4. When I setup a backdrop image for model file, it stays when I close that file and open the next. Do I need to save a layout for every file? This sounds crazy. What am I missing?

5. Along those same lines, the symmetry turns off when I re-open a file. Do I need to save a layout for this as well?

Maybe I'm just missing out on part of the Modo mental leap. Please help to clue me in.

kursad_pileksuz
09-29-2004, 02:59 AM
1. Can I avoid (configure) having to click inside a viewport first to make it active to use my pie menus? It seems like Modo should recognize the mouse position for this. Also it would be nice to not have to re-click on my hot key to bring back up the pie menu for my next action.

-you can use your pie menus as far as i know anywwhere, but if they are window related issues they may run in whichever window you press on pie menus, if you call a 3d viewport in tools window, possibly your tools window will become another 3d viewport


2. As others have mentioned in this forum, having to click on a tool hotkey to change selections can be a little bit like finger gymnastics. Bouncing my pinky up and down while holding down the R key is harder than a lot of piano fingering that I'm trying to learn. I don't want to have to take my hand off of my pen/mouse for this. How about changing the selection set with the Axis Rotate tool?!?


With the next questions , hopefully, I'm just making beginners mistakes.
----- please explain little bit more about, selction set and axis rotate tool issue

3. When I press the maximize 3d viewport button (0 on the key pad) my shading options all reset (workplane view, shading, grid, ...) back to the way the view port was before it was maximized. How do I make these view setups stay?

-it should go back to original setup. there are many ways to organize your viewports. you can either save viewport or viewport groups or layouts,firing macros to call diferent properties for different windows. you can assign different variations to different keys or pies or floating menus etc


4. When I setup a backdrop image for model file, it stays when I close that file and open the next. Do I need to save a layout for every file? This sounds crazy. What am I missing?

-modo cannot know how long you want to use your backdrop image (even thou closing a file may be an indication that you are done with the backdrop) . it is better to assign a shortcut to backdrop clear function, if you work with backdrops alot. you do not need to save a layout for everyfile, that would have been really crazy, if you want you can thou, and call your file through macro so you can call your layout in that particular macro




5. Along those same lines, the symmetry turns off when I re-open a file. Do I need to save a layout for this as well?

-symmetry is turned off when you open and close modo. there may be a fix for it, possibly it will be saved within file, we are hoping to see in ext release



Maybe I'm just missing out on part of the Modo mental leap. Please help to clue me in.

visualride
09-29-2004, 04:22 PM
Thanks for trying to answer my questions kursad_pileksuz.



-you can use your pie menus as far as i know anywwhere, but if they are window related issues they may run in whichever window you press on pie menus, if you call a 3d viewport in tools window, possibly your tools window will become another 3d viewport


Please read my original question #1 more carefully. What I'm looking for is Mayas Marking menu. Modos Pie menu comes close, but as with other applications that poorly try to copy this function, it misses the mark, subtly. The two little problems are: You first have to click inside a 3d view to make it active, before the pie menu commands become clickable. A 'mouse-over' should refresh the pie menu. The second little problem is that you need to re-press the hotkey to activate the Pie menu every command, instead of allowing multiple commands to be issued for every hotkey press. As I mentioned, check out Maya's marking menus'.

Visualride: 2. As others have mentioned in this forum, having to click on a tool hotkey to change selections can be a little bit like finger gymnastics. Bouncing my pinky up and down while holding down the R key is harder than a lot of piano fingering that I'm trying to learn. I don't want to have to take my hand off of my pen/mouse for this. How about changing the selection set with the Axis Rotate tool?!?
As I said here, changing selection sets needs to be easier. Whenever possible, I don't want to use both hands in operations that can take hours. Anyone else feel this way?

3. When I press the maximize 3d viewport button (0 on the key pad) my shading options all reset (workplane view, shading, grid, ...) back to the way the view port was before it was maximized. How do I make these view setups stay?
Last night I found out that it is a bug in Modo (or maybe its my nvidia DCC card) that has been making this happen. When Modo is not maximized, the viewport settings reset every time another is maximized/minimized. Not good for the tutorials

Visualride: 4. When I setup a backdrop image for model file, it stays when I close that file and open the next. Do I need to save a layout for every file? This sounds crazy. What am I missing?

kursad_pileksuz: -modo cannot know how long you want to use your backdrop image (even thou closing a file may be an indication that you are done with the backdrop) . it is better to assign a shortcut to backdrop clear function, if you work with backdrops alot. you do not need to save a layout for everyfile, that would have been really crazy, if you want you can thou, and call your file through macro so you can call your layout in that particular macro
Sure, I could make a macro to open a file and a layout every time. Part of me (the programmer part) loves the idea of ultimate control of macros and scripts. The artist part of me says "Screw that". When I want to model a car, I set up backdrops for the separate views for that model, in that file. When I close that car file and open a character file, I don't want to have the car backdrop images still there do I? Does anybody? Why should I have to make a macro just to change backdrops every file (the programmer part of me says "weeee, another cool macro!")?

-symmetry is turned off when you open and close modo. there may be a fix for it, possibly it will be saved within file, we are hoping to see in ext release
I think that a 1.01 fix would be more appropriate.

I really like Modo so far, aside from these complaints. The designers are just making rookie mistakes. Hopefully they will get it cleaned up by 2.0.

MasonDoran
09-30-2004, 09:37 AM
the way the Maya Marking menus work is you just drag in the direction you want...not actually clicking on the icon that comes up as it currently does in Modo.

example in maya: alt +q + LMB drag right and release for edge selection mode (very fast because it reads the mouse movement faster then the eye can follow and not the point and click method of modo). Another advantage of this is that is also possible to have alt+q as a normal hotkey....and only when you drag with the mousebutton do you activate the marking menu

modo: alt+q to activate pie menu then point and click -much slower for the hand to move.

To make it feel more like Maya...the pie menu should only activat upon a Mouse Button press....and execute upon mouse button release. The advantage to this method is that you bring up different marking menus for different mouse buttons (fast workflow when you want to keep your fingers on QWERTY)

These are small details of course....but they become more significant when you are doing it hundreds of times in an hour.

Steve McRae
09-30-2004, 12:07 PM
Last night I found out that it is a bug in Modo (or maybe its my nvidia DCC card) that has been making this happen. When Modo is not maximized, the viewport settings reset every time another is maximized/minimized. Not good for the tutorials

I have found this to be annoying as too. It would be nice if it remembered the cameras position when flipping back and forth.

I also agree with the visualride and 2bytes - modo is really great - I would love it even more if I could customize the workflow to be even more similar to maya's.

c-g
09-30-2004, 12:56 PM
the way the Maya Marking menus work is you just drag in the direction you want...not actually clicking on the icon that comes up as it currently does in Modo.
You don't have to hit the icon, you just need it in the direction of the icon you want, look at the center of the menu when you move around the icons.

I still say don't make Modo INTO Maya. If I wanted Maya I would buy it. Maya has a lot of stuff in it that sucks, should Modo get that too?

Steve McRae
09-30-2004, 01:15 PM
we just want the options to be able to configure modo the way we want . . .

MunCHeR
09-30-2004, 02:04 PM
Well no app is perfect, but I for one would like to make the transition as easy as possible, learning a new interface is never easy (for me that is) so i would like to get up and at it as fast as possible, and moulding modo they way I would like it seems quite possible, but maybe we have to wait for a few things to be complete.I like tapping the spacebar to min/max viewports and marking menu's rock.What dont you like about maya?

Cheers

MunCH

kidcodea
09-30-2004, 03:33 PM
the unix geekness of it all...

i like artist tools, not "hell" disguised as apps.

i remember "racing" a friend on poweranimator and indigo while i was on lightwave and a3000...
i felt sorry for the guy... jesus the complexity needed to grasp to do the simplest stuff...
maya only deepened the intricate geekness of it all for me.

all programs are still too much geek and technical and very un intuitive and dumb. but maya excels in that department for me. sure we can fight them but ...

leuey
09-30-2004, 03:39 PM
I agree w/ the pie menues. I like them but do want them to act like Maya's marking menues (and auto activate w/out having to click in a veiwport, than threw me off the first time, thought it was a bug.) There may be a problem, I seem to remember something about Alias having a patent on the 'press - hold - release' part of the marking menu. Which is why maybe nobody has been able to replicate it.

2. The viewports reverting is annoying as hell. But I think it's intentional b/c LW does the same damn thing. Hopefully they'll change it or add on option to revert/don't revert per viewport.

3. I don't think that they're making rookie mistakes (for one because Allan and Stuart are about as far from rookies as you can get in this industry). But more like 'legacy' mistakes. They're carried over a few of the annoyances from LW as well as some of the features.

keeping in mind that this is a 1.0 product it's the best 1.0 modeler I've ever seen, bar none. Arguably better than Maya's 6.0 modeler, LW's 8.0 modeler. Haven't used Max for years or XSI since it was plain old softimage. But for 1.0 this is great. By this time next year people will be loving it. People will be going nuts w/ scripts, plugins, macros, and custom configs.

-Greg


Thanks for trying to answer my questions kursad_pileksuz.


Please read my original question #1 more carefully. What I'm looking for is Mayas Marking menu. Modos Pie menu comes close, but as with other applications that poorly try to copy this function, it misses the mark, subtly. The two little problems are: You first have to click inside a 3d view to make it active, before the pie menu commands become clickable. A 'mouse-over' should refresh the pie menu. The second little problem is that you need to re-press the hotkey to activate the Pie menu every command, instead of allowing multiple commands to be issued for every hotkey press. As I mentioned, check out Maya's marking menus'.

Last night I found out that it is a bug in Modo (or maybe its my nvidia DCC card) that has been making this happen. When Modo is not maximized, the viewport settings reset every time another is maximized/minimized. Not good for the tutorials

I really like Modo so far, aside from these complaints. The designers are just making rookie mistakes. Hopefully they will get it cleaned up by 2.0.

visualride
09-30-2004, 04:14 PM
I seem to remember something about Alias having a patent on the 'press - hold - release' part of the marking menu. Which is why maybe nobody has been able to replicate it.
It's too bad that things like this can be patented. This patent, Pixar's patent on a kind of interactive SubD edge creasing, and other such patents just hold back progress. It's fine to keep the competition from totally stealing ideas, but when a new product comes out that everyone gets so excited about that will finally put all these great ideas together, it's dissapointing when it's not all there the way it should be.

MunCHeR
09-30-2004, 04:40 PM
I remember a thread in the cgtalk/general discussion forum about Micro$oft trying to patent the double click, now I dont remember the details too much but that just takes the cake as far as I'm concerned. :rolleyes:


edit: here's the thread:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=146691&highlight=double+click

sorry if this is OT, just found it amusing

MunCH

Headcrash
09-30-2004, 04:54 PM
I agree w/ the pie menues. I like them but do want them to act like Maya's marking menues (and auto activate w/out having to click in a veiwport, than threw me off the first time, thought it was a bug.) There may be a problem, I seem to remember something about Alias having a patent on the 'press - hold - release' part of the marking menu. Which is why maybe nobody has been able to replicate it.


I'm not sure what you're referring to here regarding the auto-activation. I can open pie menus here on any viewport, even overlapping windows. There is a preference setting that will open pie menus immediately upon hitting the assigned hotkey (no mouse clicks involved). Go to:

Preferences -> Input -> Remapping

and toggle on the 'Open Pies Immediately' option

I find this mode a lot faster for me personally. I have a selection marking menu assigned to the space bar and I can fly through a number of selection choices in pretty short order. It's a lot easier to press the space bar multiple times than to click+drag multiple times, so I prefer this method.

The default behavior in Modo functions the same way that marking menus did in Alias Studio; you'd hit the menu modifier and a mouse click would open the menu. Releasing the mouse button closed the menu. Actually, it works the same way that Maya does (I just tried it now). Addressing some of the earlier comments, it is possible to hold down a pie menu hotkey and make multiple choices with the mouse without having to reactivate the hotkey as long as the 'Open Pies Immediately' option isn't checked.

You don't actually have to hit the pie menu item in order to select it. You'll find that once you move the mouse a minimum distance the item is selected and mousing outside that item will still select it. I just tested this in Maya and it works the same way. The only difference is that Maya doesn't draw the entire menu if you make your selection quickly whereas Modo does. I haven't noticed a real difference in draw speed that negatively affects selection time, so the difference is cosmetic.

The minimum selection distance doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If I'm making a ton of selections quickly I tend to overshoot my menu selections (mousing past the item) rather than not mousing far enough.

visualride
09-30-2004, 05:26 PM
Headcrash (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=4605),

It's good that your getting into the specifics of this problem, and I like the way that you explained how that 'Open pies immediately' check box works, but the problems still remain. For example, I have a pie menu to toggle wireframe mode, cages, workplane, .... When I have my mouse over my perspective viewport, push my hotkey to start my pie menu, and LMB click to activate it (with the 'Open pies immediately' preference check box -unchecked), my commands are all greyed out and unusable. I first have to click in the viewport, then the pie menu items are not greyed out and work. Try hovering over a new viewport, without first clicking in it, push a pie menu hotkey, and let me know what happens. It seems like the 'Open pies immediately' check box fixes one problem, and creates another.
These may seam like small problems, but they take the ease (and fun) out of the pie menu's.

jangell
09-30-2004, 05:28 PM
the way the Maya Marking menus work is you just drag in the direction you want...not actually clicking on the icon that comes up as it currently does in Modo.

You just have to drag in the right direction and get away from the center of the pie; you don't have to actually release on top of a slice, just in it's direction.

Incidentally, Maya has patents on Marking Menus, which limits how much they can be emulated. One aspect I've heard of in the patent is going from a radial menu to a linear one, which is why none of our menus are like that.

Pie menus themselves are not patented, and many implementations are easily discoverable from google. We tried to choose one that was relatively familiar to Maya users.

modo: alt+q to activate pie menu then point and click -much slower for the hand to move.

Prefs->Input->Remapping->Open Pie Menus Immediately. Turn that off, and it'll wait for a click after you hold down the keys before opening the menu. The Maya style confuses non-Maya users. I personally don't find hitting alt-q to open the menu, then throwing my mouse and clicking (which I prefer) to be that much different from the Don't Open Immediately mode; you can get similar gesturing both ways, but the pref lets you decide which you prefer. Admittedly, this should probably set as part of the Maya remapping when you install the app.

-- Joe

visualride
09-30-2004, 05:41 PM
Thanks for the official input Joe. I'll stop complaining about pie menu's now and assume that Lux made pie menus as good as possible, without violating a patent.

Headcrash
09-30-2004, 05:56 PM
visualride,

Ah, I understand your problem now. The commands you're firing from within your pie menus require that a 3d viewport be selected. Otherwise, how would Modo know which viewport to apply the changes to? I don't have any view-related commands in my pie, so I wasn't having the same problems you're experiencing.

There is a wierd issue with 3d viewport selection and modified configs that doesn't allow 3d viewport selection to work the way it should. Here's the deal:

Modo should select the 3d viewport by just hovering the mouse over a viewport, no clicking required. That's the way my home machine works. However, my work install requires an actual mouse click to activate, and it is using the config that I constructed through the Form Editor. My home machine just imports the exported config from work.

Something strange got introduced to my work config that is causing some strange behavior. Luxology knows about this problem and is looking into the issue. I suspect that you've got something similar going on.

I'm going to spend some time today hacking on my configs to see if I can eradicate my problems. I'll let you know if I find a way to make my work machine behave the same way my home machine does....the Right Way. Just know for now that clicking to activate a 3d view is not the way Modo is supposed to operate and should be considered a bug :)

jangell
09-30-2004, 06:01 PM
Thanks for the official input Joe. I'll stop complaining about pie menu's now and assume that Lux made pie menus as good as possible, without violating a patent.

Nah, there are some requests that make sense but aren't implemented, such as showing toggle states on the slices. So you can keep requesting things if you like, and we'll implement what we can.

-- Joe

visualride
09-30-2004, 06:09 PM
Thanks Headcrash, it's good to know that a sollution is possible. I think that I'll start spending more time modeling now, instead of forum surfing.

c-g
10-06-2004, 12:55 AM
What dont you like about maya?
It isn't the issue of not liking something about Maya. It is all the new Modo users whining that Modo ISN'T Maya. It hasn't been expressed in terms of wanting to configure it to be like Maya, they want it to be exactly like Maya.

I don't mean just this thread.

MunCHeR
10-06-2004, 01:12 AM
c-g, yeah I get what you're saying man, but on one of the modo demo video's brad peebler was saying it was designed to fit into an existing workflow, I would never expect modo to "be" maya but it would be nice to have some things the same, like viewport navigation which I'm totally used to, I just think people would like "mappable keys" so they dont have to adjust their workflow too much and get productive with this great little app, which I'm sure it.

Cheers

MunCH

MasonDoran
10-06-2004, 04:08 PM
his joe....havent followed this thread in week and missed your posts.

Thanx alot on your replies. If there is anything i am impressed about it is LUX has people reading these forums and posting answers to get people up to speed.

I am sure there is a lot of frustrated people out there trying to re-learn and adapt. I am finding your comments more effective then the help files.....


the alt-q thing modification i am going to look at....sweet

MasonDoran
10-07-2004, 08:50 AM
open pie menus immediately did the trick.......much faster now.


as a matter of fact....dont know if this qualifies as a bug

......but i have to wait about 1 second after the release of q button for modo to realize it....i still have my thumb on the alt button(for panning and orbiting) and when i press LMB the menu comes up again despite q not being pressed.

CGTalk Moderation
01-19-2006, 08:00 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.