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spacemunky
09-25-2004, 09:51 PM
I am coming from Maya and I have to say I love the tools in Modo...but some of the things that are in here are just driving me nuts..they just make no sense.
1 Why can't i just duplicate an object...and why is it so damn hard to work with all those layers....it seems like Modo is only made for scenes with two maybe 3 objects in it..not for doing anything with hundreds of objects. The whoel turning layers on and off thing is way too tedious for someone working with environments
2 There are no spline modeling tools that I can find...the patch tool is the most unintuitive tool I have ever seen
3 The action center idea is REALLY BAD....all i do it click off the object and screw everything up....there should be set centers for the objects that you can move only by hitting a button and not by accident...and there is no way I know of know to reset a center to the center of the object
4 Why do i a have to go in and out of a tool to select something new and use the tool on it...and holding the tool button down is not acceptable either
5 Snapping modes need hotkeys and there needs to be some way to make an object "live"...so that you can draw on it with curves and snap other objects to it
6 Is there a object mode or is it only those funky layers
7 How the hell do I make all my tools autoactivate like they would in maya without using all of them and then setting them to auto

I think modo is a great app with alot of potential...but if you want studios to use this very expensive tool then you are going to have to take a look at how enormously different this workflow is from maya and figure out a way to bridge the gap..right now I can see studios using lightwave making the move..but XSI and Maya people would have much too much of a learning curve at this time to migrate to modo. I really want this app to work for me...but if things really do work like they appear to me now..that might be impossible for my studio and myself..........perhaps a maya to modo doc is in order

ambient-whisper
09-25-2004, 10:17 PM
you dont really need a maya to modo doc. just spend some time with the application.
as for the whole layer editor. i agree. i would rather have an object oriented setup, in a single editor than having several separate editors that focus on different types of object properties. you would see objects/ groups/ selection sets/ morphs/ different atributes. and be able to see properties for multiple objects and not just a single object at a time.

instead of showing objects by clicking on them. youd do the opposite.( more info below )

i did this mockup a few days back but never uploaded it. i was in fear that the LWers would jump on me and kick my ass for suggesting this. ;).
its a combination of what a layer system is like, and an object manager that youd get in mirai/maya/xsi/ etc. ( except maya and xsi separate object managers and layer editors too. unfortunately ). i still dont understand why these applications separate these similar concepts. and add a few different options to either editor.

http://ambient-whisper.cgcommunity.com/images_dump/neato/Modo_Mirai-Geometry_Graph.jpg

Hiding/ Icon row 1
in this picture you can see a group of cubes. and i actually forgot to give the cube group an eye icon too. because you should be able to hide entire groups with ease.
anyway. as you can see. the eyes work in a way that if you got the entire object showing you see a full open eye. when you have a selection set/s showing the full eye is replaced by a 1/2 shut one.

with this setup you could easily transfer attributes between objects, manage selections/ objects/ groups/ morphs if need be... or even topology brush items if you wanted ( ill get back to this one )

Sensitivity/ Icon Row 2

you could control if an object/ or group/ or part ( selection set ) is selectable or not. this is great if you have all parts of an object showing, but you only want to affect the faces on the mouth area, and not be able to select anything else. ( if you create faces around borders of parts they would be unassigned, so you could make sure that the faces get to the right part you want. )

Shading/ not in picture but it would be Icon Row 3 http://www.silo3d.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

shading would control the obvious. either wireframe, or shaded.
this would only be available per object, and not for sub object parts.( not sure how you would even start coding something like that )
anyway, this would make it easy to do stuff like, work on teeth, while seeing the head around it. ( for this i would actually suggest that Modo gets a transparency option for material shading, because the wireframe would be a bit much over an object that your working on. ( like having the wire display for head, and then when your working on the teeth you would see the wire for that too. after a while it becomes a bit much.

usability of geometry manager

each icon row would have 3 ways of being manipulated.
1.) if you left click, you toggle the object on or off.
2.) mmb would enable the entire row of objects. ( would disregard sub objects, unless you middle clicked on a subobject icon )
3.) if you right click, every icon will turn off, EXCEPT the icon that you right clicked on.

there would be a way to drag drop objects onto others, so you could make groups and or parenting.
arrows would be able to be used here so you could navigate through it.
you should be able to use the mouse to almost raycast selection of items in here too. ( would be useful for stuff that will follow below, and deleting a number of selected objects on the fly, or applying materials to selected objects/groups/parts. )

Nando
09-25-2004, 10:21 PM
dam my post seems like a work around compared to what you have listed up there. ;)




1 Right click on selected layer click duplicate, click the w key to move it so u can see the one under it. rename objects in the list by clickin on the name. move the layers up or down by dragging and dropping in the list.
You can even drag them under other layers to keep a heirarchy of sorts.

3 I had trouble with these also, when i wanted to move an object then i figured out that it wasnt T to transform as I wanted, but w to move the slected object.

4 I agree



7 If you want to make auto primitives ctrl click it and a quick primitive will be made.
Middle mouse button is more interactive way of making an object.
select primitive middle mouse click viewport set size, right mouse click adjust segments etc.

spacemunky
09-25-2004, 11:28 PM
thanks ambient for the great suggestion.....I would still really like to hear from one of the luxology guys to respond to the other questions

CB_3D
09-25-2004, 11:45 PM
One thing i always wanted for LWs Layer Editor was a way to turn toggle multiple Layers like in Photoshop just by holding the LFT+pushing down the Layers palette. Very simple and fast!

tjnyc
09-25-2004, 11:50 PM
Unfortunately, there are many little workflow things that are different and will cause users to get accustomed too. Users will need to adopt to the Modo workflow instead of the other way around. I am starting to get accustomed to how things are done in Modo, but there are still these little bumps with workflow that doesn't translate well from experiences with other apps and is causing some headaches. Eventually, I will get it, but it is something I would had hope Luxology would have addressed prior to the release to make workflow more assessible to non-LWs and I would hope it will be something they will address in the future, but by then it might not matter.



Cheers,

Renderman_XSI
09-26-2004, 12:06 AM
AW dude you made my day, after seeing that cool un-Mirai mock up ;) . Like always good suggestion.

spacemunky,

4. agree. It had be nice, if i could say extrude a polygon from a box with action center:local turn on, than without exiting the tool, select other polygons to extrude. They can also extend this to the element move tool, so i can select multiple type of element and move them without leaving the tool.

Is it me or the extrude tool doesnt work properly in many ways? they seem to create inverted polygons when you use them. Also create a box, select all the polys, hit "X" to extrude, set action center to local, technically it should extrude all the polygons locally..but it doesnt. workaround for now, is use the bevel tool, with zero inset.

A collection mode would be nice, instead of holding shift to add to selection you can turn on collection mode, to collect all selection and when your done right click to tell the app your done with collecting. Making selection/and selection jumping between diferent element type is probably something you do alot..so it should be comfortable and relaxing, just as navigations should be also.

CoolDuck
09-26-2004, 12:33 AM
3 The action center idea is REALLY BAD....all i do it click off the object and screw everything up....there should be set centers for the objects that you can move only by hitting a button and not by accident...and there is no way I know of know to reset a center to the center of the object
4 Why do i a have to go in and out of a tool to select something new and use the tool on it...and holding the tool button down is not acceptable either

I agree with you 100% on these points. Sometimes it is frustating: when I select a few faces, move it... i have to press W again to be able to select more faces.
Yeah, I also move the pivot by accident, very annoying! I can see the benefits of this feature, but the user should be able to turn it on or off.

About point 6: that's how Lightwave modeler was built, it has pros and cons I think. You don't have to select your object to do operations on it, TAB is the most useful example. If you have used Lightwave before than you will understand. I agree that the layer editor can be improved alot. Maybe a feature with a thumbnails to quickly see what's in the layer.

Actually, I picked up the workflow quite fast (also Maya user). Partly thanks to the Maya style cam navigation! But yeah, still a large gap to fill.

tayse
09-26-2004, 01:51 AM
to ambient-whisper : you know what you should do !!! hire a bunch of coders, programmers and built your own modeller....I assure you that I will be the first purchaser...i really like the way you take the ideas from other softwares, mix them up and come up with something cool... btw, post some more of your cool models and update your web site...and one more thing... come back to Quebec :)

to lux guys: listen this guy, because I love modo as much as you do and I want it to have more solid base on modelling so in the future it is gonna be the coolest modeller.... there are lots of good modellers around nowadays but this guy (a.w.) has ability to see and explain the pros and cos of a modelling program more than any other modeller I think....so....listen :)...actually hire him...

kursad_pileksuz
09-26-2004, 02:14 AM
i hate to sya this again, but i do not agree with most of you , but i do understand your struggle,
for exampel, there is no duplicate, because there is copy paste. i hated maya because it did not have copy paste, you i think you would understand what i mean.

"The action center idea is REALLY BAD....all i do it click off the object and screw everything up. spacemunky"
well because you are coming from maya, and you have not seen the real benefit of it, until then you will hate it. in modo there are multiple action centers, one of them is pivot action center. if you do not like default move tool, which is automatic action center, change move tool action center to pivot as your defaul move tool, really easy. and then you do not mess it up easily. i persoanlly hardly use pivot poitn, and in maya after even 4 years it was on my way rather then being helpful

you can assign snapping modes to hotkeys or incorporate them with you tools, because it is a toolpipe item

i do not think that some of your argument is valid, you are rather frustrated with the way it works, and i persoanlly do respect that.
you are telling nothing make sense in modo generally, but to me it makes more sense than maya ever did. so lets make sure that our own personal opinions are personal opinions, because there are alot of people outthere who are happy with it. but that does not mean luxology should not you listen either
as a maya user to i do understand all of your comments, just let you know

spacemunky
09-26-2004, 02:15 AM
this is all a great dialogue...but can annyone address the issue of making mulptiple objects in Modo....not just a few but enough for a complete scene.....i would hate to have to make small objects or even worse....portions of objects in modo just to bring them in maya....I mean I can't even find a standard duplicate in Modo that works at all like i would expect it to

lwbob
09-26-2004, 02:20 AM
You aren't making a complete scene, you are modeling. The problem is you are expecting it to work like Maya.

Nando
09-26-2004, 02:28 AM
..I mean I can't even find a standard duplicate in Modo that works at all like i would expect it to In windows standard is
Ctrl-C Copy
Ctrl-V paste

Same in Modo

or that right click in layers like i said above.

double click on and object if you have multiple and only want a spefic one
Ctrl-C
Ctrl-V
w move

then theres clone under geometry /create etc

spacemunky
09-26-2004, 02:38 AM
i can safely say that I am so disappointed in Modo's ability to construct and environemental model that its sickening...I now understand why Lightwave has never achieved the disemination of Maya/Max/XSI. When building an environment in Maya you routinely have a thousand nodes....can you imagine trying to do that with this layer system. It is now apparent to me to my disappointment that I will have to go back to Maya with my tail between my legs and grin and bear the crap that is maya modeling.....CAN SOMEONE PLEASE MAKE A MODELING APP THAT WORKS>>>HINT HINT>>>AMBIENT

ambient-whisper
09-26-2004, 02:49 AM
You aren't making a complete scene, you are modeling. The problem is you are expecting it to work like Maya.hes trying to model objects. not like in maya, but like everywhere else. :)

i kinda like the way clay handles this area ( "kinda" because there are obvious disadvantages to the current system as well ). when you start a new object it makes a new "layer/object container" for you. but while your modelling that layer you can duplicate and array. and make new objects within that object if you choose. but new objects from the create menu are always put into their own container. makes managing a bit easier.

i would still like to see it how mirai/xsi/ and others handle this area though. just because it makes each object separate, unless you choose to merge them into one object. it might seem like you would end up with too many objects in the "layer editor" but if you merge objects into groups its nice.

actually that doesnt really bother me " the layer part" but the fact that you cant control them as well as you should be able to does. like being able to see sub-objects for each layer. every separate surface could be a different selection set defined within the layer editor.

the current method is slow and unfriendly. because you choose your "layer". then you have to hover all the way to the info+statistics, look for polygons, expand, look for selection set, expand, look for group, and press + to add.

if we seen the selection set if we expanded the "object/layer" that we are working on, then this would be much easier because we would have to do so much less hunting. plus if lux added all the stuff i mentioned in another post ( like the mouse commands to enable rows/ disable everything but selected/ and toggling, then navigating and managing in the layer editor would be faster too. ).

i dunno. maybe im wrong. but personally i feel this entire setup could be simplified by a lot, and make it more flexible.

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE MAKE A MODELING APP THAT WORKS>>>HINT HINT>>>AMBIENT
sorry to dissapoint you man, i dont have THAT much money to go around, plus i suck with code. :(. i have faith in lux though. otherwise i wouldnt have bought modo :).
Silo wasnt all that great at 1.0 either. its safe to say now though that its evolved a Ton since.

onikaze
09-26-2004, 02:52 AM
spacemunky


I really don't expect that type of functionality from a pure modeler. what you want is scene management (what maya appearantly does well for you)

I really don't see why the elements of the environment you want can't be made in modo then arranged in maya.

lwbob
09-26-2004, 02:54 AM
hes trying to model objects. not like in maya, but like everywhere else. :)
No he is trying to model it like in Maya or any other full 3d application. He isn't just modeling he is trying to set up a full scene. I'm pretty sure that Luxology has mentioned that Modo is a modeler. If someone is too dim to notice that they don't have the full 3D set of tools like animation, rendering and dynamics then that is their problem.

kursad_pileksuz
09-26-2004, 02:57 AM
i tell you this,
modo is a modeler, and an enviroment is a place where you put your "models" together. in that sense it makes sense modo to not to have kind of modelling enviroment maya gives you. you can make enviromental works in modo no proplem, but the way modo works is this, modo assumes that you will be putting all those models together in your rendering and animation package (in this case maya). it would be same argument for zbrush, do not even try making enviromental work in zbrush like you do in maya.
in modo there are alot of workarounds, if you are passionate enough i am sure you will find alot of great stuff, but until that you will be a disappointed user, and it is catch 22 right there. sorry about how you feel.
i agree with some people about layer stuff it can be extended beyond what it is currently. but at least it is a great start and i personally use layers like crazy, for sketching, for storing, for keeping old versions, for multiple parts, for keeping things in order, for keeping junk part which i am not sure, and for tracing etc

i know some would hate me saying this again, but when time will come, modo will be your primary tool, you will appreciate it more until then it is catch 22 (it is a great movie btw)

only things that are bugging me in modo are bugs themselves currently, in my humble opinion

ambient-whisper
09-26-2004, 02:59 AM
No he is trying to model it like in Maya or any other full 3d application. He isn't just modeling he is trying to set up a full scene. I'm pretty sure that Luxology has mentioned that Modo is a modeler. If someone is too dim to notice that they don't have the full 3D set of tools like animation, rendering and dynamics then that is their problem.when you model an environment theres a few ways to go about it.

you can model everything separately. and see how it works together later. if things dont work out then youll have to go back and fix.

OR, you can model a scene within the modeller how it will be setup in the final scene, with all objects placed correctly so you KNOW things will work, and not have to fix a ton of things later.

some people dont like to work mathematically, and rather do things as they go.

i dont see why both approaches wouldnt work. ( actually they work just fine in the current setup, but it might be a bit more work on the users part )

MrPG
09-26-2004, 03:01 AM
ok so i was able to test drive modo for 5/6 solid hours, yes i'm sad i know, a friends attempt at sellling me on becoming a windows :D users, but *fingers crossed* luxology has placed porting to linux on the list of todo's, even if at the bottom. Anyway my point is i only had so many hours with the app and skimming the docs. Some of what i say could be wrong or just a difference of opinion... they're like a-holes after all, everybody has got one :)

1 Why can't i just duplicate an object...and why is it so damn hard to work with all those layers....it seems like Modo is only made for scenes with two maybe 3 objects in it..not for doing anything with hundreds of objects. The whoel turning layers on and off thing is way too tedious for someone working with environments for this the universal standard of ctrl+x/c/v cut/copy/paste then w to move or the clone tool which duplicates with offset.. sparing you the move after a ctrl+x/c/v

2 There are no spline modeling tools that I can find...the patch tool is the most unintuitive tool I have ever seen i didn't attempt any spline/patch modelling as i'm not that familiar with those methods at this point

3 The action center idea is REALLY BAD....all i do it click off the object and screw everything up....there should be set centers for the objects that you can move only by hitting a button and not by accident...and there is no way I know of know to reset a center to the center of the object i disagree here, this is a power-tool if used by someone that understands howto apply it, to make this clearer you should check out the modo demos, the one in particular that comes to mind is brad working with the old man head, there are others also

4 Why do i a have to go in and out of a tool to select something new and use the tool not sure why you find holding down a key for a second(s) while you make your selections unacceptable... If you want to add to your current selection then also hold down the shift key also AFTER pressing nad holding the w (whatever edit tool key). this possibly could be a problem for tiny hands :) if your edit tools are spaced out from either shift

5 Snapping modes need hotkeys and there needs to be some way to make an object "live"...so that you can draw on it with curves and snap other objects to it this is where modo comes in strong i think, it being fully customizable, you can just assign snap commands to keys/key combos... check your command window as your're toggling snap then from their you can click and assign a key, i would not use a different key for each snap mode but for ex;
ctrl+key = vert snap
shift+key = geo snap
alt+key = grid

6 Is there a object mode or is it only those funky layers i find working with layers easy, but initially i agreed with this for the most part, more so now after seeing amient-whisper's mock up, good stuff homie. With this an additional object mode for easier selection and manipulation of a single object

7 How the hell do I make all my tools autoactivate like they would in maya without using all of them and then setting them to auto not a maya guy so i dont get what is meant here


hope this has helped.

ambient-whisper
09-26-2004, 03:06 AM
by auto activate i think he means that when he presses bevel for example he wants the application to automatically start using the tool without pressing left click in the viewport first.

so in effect if bevel worked in a way where all you have to do is drag left and right until you press right click to finish using tool. then when you press the bevel button you would automatically be dropped into dragging mode, instead of pressing to accept the tool that you just chose.

or atleast thats what i think he meant.

kursad_pileksuz
09-26-2004, 03:08 AM
yes that is what he wants naturally, but you can make bevel autoactive too, and it is not that bad thou, you just need to do auto active thing once per your tools. how many tools you need for modelling anyways

MrPG
09-26-2004, 03:22 AM
thanks ambient, i get it now.

i can safely say that I am so disappointed in Modo's ability to construct and environemental model that its sickening...I now understand why Lightwave has never achieved the disemination of Maya/Max/XSI. kinda harsh words for a app thats at its initial public release and publicly only 6 days old. And to me it seems your only valid issue is improving object management. Now remember its a modeller, i have no expeirience with commercial quaility modeller-only apps... anyone here care to comment/compare object management in say a silo or any others (silo is the only one that comes to mind)

Sounds like you're letting your frustations during your learning period, on what sounds like big project, get the better of you. I have no experience but i doubt studios would adopt a new modelling application into their pipeline, no time/trianing invested, and expect their artists to pick up on projects where they left off.

ambient-whisper
09-26-2004, 03:31 AM
i feel like im spamming this thread. im sorry.

silo doesnt have any object management at the moment right now actually. but it is something they will adress before 1.5 i hope.

as for other applications like maya/xsi/max/etc. they all have object management systems. but they are either not as functional as they should be, or require multiple editors to achieve one thing.
there should be no real excuse not to have good object management tools. if we work on complex creatures/ environments/ mechanical constructions, then managing the many objects that they will be made up of quickly is very beneficial.

i dont really have any problems with the current setup in modo, but it could see some cleaning up/extension. :)

MrPG
09-26-2004, 03:36 AM
i feel like im spamming this thread. im sorry.

silo doesnt have any object management at the moment right now actually. but it is something they will adress before 1.5 i hope.

as for other applications like maya/xsi/max/etc. they all have object management systems. but they are either not as functional as they should be, or require multiple editors to achieve one thing. i feel like a spammer msyelf :)

my point was to separate modo, a modeller, from those, for lack of better term, "full feature" applications. People expressing disappointment with modo always seems to for the most part hold it up to comparison to xsi/maya. Realize its not lightwave suite and only a modeller and you can clearly see how good a tool it is. Not saying its not open for improvements but as it stands i think its an extremely good start

ambient-whisper
09-26-2004, 03:40 AM
maybe we should try irc ;). but im just trying to see consistency in applications. i dont see any reason why the modeller should have a completely different system for managing objects than the animation system they will release. your doing one thing. managing elements of what you see before you. :)
the selection sets you made could work within nexus for faster rigging/ material assignments/ and such. and youd use the same editor between both apps, instead of 4. ( mesh list/ info and statistics/ vertex map list/ and whatever the animation system will have )
a user learns much faster when things are consistant.

for example. i have this editor called hte vertex map list.

i see, weight maps, uvmaps, morph maps, other maps.
yet when i expand these theres nothing there. so why do i need to see it? if it was merged into the layer editor on a per object basis then these elements would only be created if i made them. ( if i expanded the object to see its selection sets/ morphs etc. then i wouldnt see a directory for morphs for that object unless it had some to show. or i wouldnt see any selection sets for that object unless i created some ). and this way you could get rid of an entire editor, and have it inside the "layer manager". or drag drop stuff between objects, since you could see properties for any object that you opened up.

lwbob
09-26-2004, 03:43 AM
as for other applications like maya/xsi/max/etc. they all have object management systems.
That is because they need to have them, they are more than modelers.


I didn't see your posts as spam, although we could use more threads instead of the same few who bought it, where is this, I hate that, ones.

MrPG
09-26-2004, 03:49 AM
maybe we should try irc ;). but im just trying to see consistency in applications. i dont see any reason why the modeller should have a completely different system for managing objects than the animation system they will release. your doing one thing. managing elements of what you see before you. :)
the selection sets you made could work within nexus for faster rigging/ material assignments/ and such. and youd use the same editor between both apps, instead of 4. ( mesh list/ info and statistics/ vertex map list/ and whatever the animation system will have )
a user learns much faster when things are consistant. aye, irc would probably be best, but my spamming is coming to an end now :)

you make alot of solidly good points, i think we more or less see eye to eye on modo. hopefully luxo is in agreement :D with your ideas on object/layer management, that mockup is pretty sweet.

last note to space is not to throw modo in the trash so quickly.

kursad_pileksuz
09-26-2004, 03:49 AM
my closing comment is this
in modo things are very very very very very simple
, but other packages changed or altered the meaning of "simplicity", so your standart of simple is different. in a way most of the packages got more complicated so the amount of data to control got more complicated for uuser and for software too.

modo is not a feature(s) driven software, rather it is a simplicity driven software, i really mean it, that is why it does not have construction history like maya but it has some kind of operation stack, for example. when bugs are out, and couple of other stuff is implemented, then you wont need to waste time with package itself, rather you will be dealing with your model only . think about opencanvas a painting software that is so simple but has all important stuff

Sbowling
09-26-2004, 03:53 AM
The biggest problem I see here are people expecting this program to work exactly like their old program. If you want this so bad, use the old one. Modo is Modo, not LightWave, Max or Maya.

Spacemunkey:

1)Your problem seems to be how you are trying to use the program. I find using the layers very easy, which is probably due to my LW background. Also, Modo is designed for modeling objects, not arranging an complete scene. It is possible to arrange a complete scene, but it would probably be best to do this in the animation/rendering package you are using.

2) They're under curves, and yes they are limited, but Modo was never advertised as a spline patch modeler.

3) Action centers work fine once you get used to them. They actually offer a variety of ways to controll defromations and transforms. They are all documented in the user guide.

4) Why is holding down the tool button not acceptable? Seems to work fine for me. The only complaint I would have is that I have to click in the view again to get the handles to show up again. If you have complaints, please give more details. It's possible there is a way around the problem you are having, but I don't know why you think this is not acceptable, so I can't give any suggestions.

5)you can set a hotkey for probably every command available in modo. To do this you may need to drag the command history wider so that you can see the "file name and arguments" section. By default I could only see the "commands" section. Anywy, set the grid snap to what you want, then find it in the history and right click on it and select "map command to key" and then hit whatever key(s) you want to use for that command.

6) Only layers. Each layer can be either an object or a part of an object. What I would like to see is a heierachy mode where each layer can be parented to other layers, so that my robot are can be parented to my robot shoulder and when I more the robot torso the shoulder and arm follow. This is one of the weaker points from LightWave that found it's way into Modo. Other than that I like the way Layers work for the most part.

7) Not sure what you mean by auto active. Unfortunately I never got along very well with Maya.

ambient-whisper (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=3567) vbmenu_register("postmenu_1601341", true); :

Unfortunately, it's very easy to come up with ideas, but can be incredibly tedious or even impossible to implement. Most of the things you've asked for are already possible. As I said earlier, most of the problems I've been seeing come down to differences in the way things work between Modo and the other programs. Now if you really wanted tohelp Lux out you could send Code instead of picutures. :D

ambient-whisper
09-26-2004, 04:00 AM
ambient-whisper (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=3567) vbmenu_register("postmenu_1601341", true); :

Unfortunately, it's very easy to come up with ideas, but can be incredibly tedious or even impossible to implement. Most of the things you've asked for are already possible. As I said earlier, most of the problems I've been seeing come down to differences in the way things work between Modo and the other programs. Now if you really wanted tohelp Lux out you could send Code instead of picutures. :D
i thought the idea of paying for software was to get compiled code from developers that works :) so we could do our job. im not saying modo doesnt work. it does.

my job is in pictures, not code ;).

Sbowling
09-26-2004, 04:19 AM
i thought the idea of paying for software was to get compiled code from developers that works :) so we could do our job. im not saying modo doesnt work. it does.

my job is in pictures, not code ;).
That last part I was just kidding. Just trying to be funny and failing as usual.:eek: I've been on a lot of betas, and the main reason a lot of requested features don't make it into a program is not because the probrammers think they are bad ideas, but because it the time it takes them to get that one feature coded and debuged, they could add in several other features that they feel are far more important. Ive seen developers spend weeks on features only to discover that they cause so many other problems that have to be dropped. I've also seen developers add features everyone thinks they want only to discover that they never get used. Seriously, if this stuff was easy to code, it would all be in there already.

For now, I think the main thing people need to do before asking for new features is spend more time with the program and learn how it works. I've seen many people asking for featres that are already in the program.

My Fault
09-26-2004, 04:47 AM
Seriously, if this stuff was easy to code, it would all be in there already.
I don't entirely agree with this. It's obvious from who the developers are, what they've said and the many features, that Modo is very much an extension of Lightwave (Lightwave on steroids as many have said). 3d modeling has evolved and there are many great features, as Ambient and others have said, from programs like Mirai, Wings, Silo that would only make Modo an even better application. It doesn't seem like Lux is that aware of them.

I would guess anyone with a background in Lightwave will take to Modo much quicker then someone from say a Wings 3d background. So those folks are bound to be more positive about it. I think most everyone in this thread only wants to see Modo be even stronger then it already is.

ambient-whisper
09-26-2004, 04:52 AM
That last part I was just kidding. Just trying to be funny and failing as usual.:eek: I've been on a lot of betas, and the main reason a lot of requested features don't make it into a program is not because the probrammers think they are bad ideas, but because it the time it takes them to get that one feature coded and debuged, they could add in several other features that they feel are far more important. Ive seen developers spend weeks on features only to discover that they cause so many other problems that have to be dropped. I've also seen developers add features everyone thinks they want only to discover that they never get used. Seriously, if this stuff was easy to code, it would all be in there already.

For now, I think the main thing people need to do before asking for new features is spend more time with the program and learn how it works. I've seen many people asking for featres that are already in the program.:) i was just gonna write that my job is in pictures not code, i added the rest later, kinda made the post sound more serious than it was supposed to :/.

anyway. ive also been on plenty betas, so ive also seen a number of software evolve. your points are very much valid.

so far ive mainly suggested stuff that is very much successful in other software, and ideas that work because ive tried them in the past. i used to be completely biased toward mirai. but after using clay for a few years, playing with silo, having to use xsi for work, houdini and maya while interning , autocad at school for a few years, betaing zbrush and using it for work i dont have that bias anymore. theres stuff i like in a lot of software, and all 3d applications are generally very much similar, except a few particulars. theres a reason why most modellers nowadays have a connect tool. its been tried, tested, and it works, as well as other concepts. its a general tool that works in many different ways depending on how used. id personally like to see the same love given to more tools.

anyway, back to object management,

the object management stuff in lightwave wouldnt need much work actually. think of it this way. if every object you make ( a fresh object.) got put into its own layer, then it would appear to the user as if it was a separate object, and not really just a separate layer. making new objects within the same layer could be made to shift+create object. shift being the standard for adding. this would make sense. ( or something like right click on an icon ) this would allow both LWers to use multiple objects within the same layer like they are used to. and it would allow for a workflow for others how they are used to in their other applications.

most of the code that lux has for the vertex list stuff would remain as is. it would just work a little different and within a different stream of code.

i also agree that more people should put the software through its paces before making some comments, but like someone said in one of these modo threads. if we use it too much we might just get used to the quirks, and by that time the developer wont need to fix them because nobody will be complaining.

if this was my software i would fix up all the workflow/bug stuff first, and work on fixing/adding tools later( except for slide and connect ;) ). its harder for people to adjust to different workflows, than to add a new tool to their arsenal.

spacemunky
09-26-2004, 06:27 AM
i will give you all and example of modeling something...not making a scene...that requires alot of "layers"..when it should be more like maya or even silo which at least have a straight forward object mode. If I making a tank..with rivets..treads...and alot of repeating elements..hundred of them...this is where the layer system breaks down. I'm not talking about composing a scene....I know the diffrerence between Maya and a stand alone modeler....I use Z-Brush everyday and I don't expect to make scenes in it. The CTRL C/CTRL V thing as far as I can tell works only on faces...and then they all move under the same transform unless you reslect them as faces...maybe I am wrong but that has been my experience. Please don't think i am trash talking Modo...I really like this app...I was just hoping for something that would free me most of the time from Maya and its not working out that way. If they had only gone with a more straight forward heirarchy of objects and simple duplication options for that heirarchy I would be happy...I am not giving up yet...I am just disappointed in alot of ways. Its hard getting alot of people like a studio convinced to use a product when there is a big gapping whole in the workflow and a hefty price tag attached. As of right now if Silo had a bevel like Modo I would just assume purchase it for 1/8 the price, until Luxology does a little bit of a better job whoo'ing the maya crowd.

kursad_pileksuz
09-26-2004, 06:48 AM
there can be an "object " mode beside vert,edge, and poly. you can make a simple one if that is what you want, or we can wait luxology to adapt little more robust object mode. basically an object mode in modo`s term is "select connected" and "disable selection" with pivot action center enabled (in my poor knowledge of macros in modo, you may need to do one right and left click to achieve this, but maybe luxology can come up with better solutions) . and can be made through macro even, and put on the menu next to "poly" mode as far as i think i know about modo. You do not need to be a programmer or highly technical person to achieve this, just watch your command history.To me currently double clicking on polygons or verts selct the whole object and i am persoanlly happy with it. i am just trying to give different ideas here. for example maya cannot work without a pivot point! but modo can work with or without one.

duke
09-26-2004, 07:17 AM
It sounds like your main problem with layer/object management is that you're simply not used to the setup of having a seperate modelling program.

The way it works in Lightwave, with a seperate program for modelling and another for everything else is this:

-Create model assets in modeller
-Assemble and do everything else in layout

For example, say I wanted to create an environment with sky, grass, and all the rest of it. If I wanted to keep things seperate like you appear to want, I'd create a few variations of rocks - 1 in each layer - so I might have 5, variations of plants, grass, etc etc. Plus my main terrain, skydome and all the rest of it all in different layers. All up I might have 20 layers in one object all named appropriately.

I would then bring everything into layout, using it to distribute the rocks and so forth, and doing all the asset MANAGEMENT here.

The creation process is done in modeller, the management is done in layout.

It sounds like you're having a few problems knowing what/where a seperate modeller such as Modo has in a production pipeline. In your case, the creation of assets is done in Modo, and the management is done in Maya. A seperate modeller is not meant to create entire scene files all layed out for you do import as a complete scene. You can - but it's not made for it.

-duke

LFGabel
09-26-2004, 07:44 AM
...an object mode in modo`s term is "select connected" and "disable selection" with pivot action center enabled...Does Modo also have part naming, like LW? That could be seen as an "object mode" of sorts...

kursad_pileksuz
09-26-2004, 08:03 AM
yes it does, it has all the goods from lightwave
Does Modo also have part naming, like LW? That could be seen as an "object mode" of sorts...

MasonDoran
09-26-2004, 12:02 PM
space munky reminds me of all of the frustration i had of learning Lightwave....after knowing maya

if it helps with the pivot thing....try using the alt+ a, s, d, e, f, keys....that will sort u out.

its probably smart to create pie menu with all of that to save hotkey space....but really, if you can get use to that you will find it much faster then Mayas Insert key....


i would like to know how to toggle the Backface culling....

MasonDoran
09-26-2004, 12:07 PM
one other thing....do any of y ou reckon its possible to create context sensitive pie menus/hotkeys?

that would be the easiest way to consolodate the tools. at least in maya it works that every component has an id number....which u can use to bring up different marking menus...

leuey
09-26-2004, 10:36 PM
Spacemunky - I see where you're coming from but you can be effective at modeling environments in Modo - you just have to think a little differently. I've modeled a lot of environtments in LW and there's basically 2 ways to do it. As somebody mentioned before you create your elements in Modo (differenent, rocks, trees, bushes, clumbs, ponds, whatever) - then use Maya or Layout (or whatever) to arrange the elements into the scene you want, taking advantage of that program's clone and scene management features. Or, if you want to build one giant, static environment and you want to move a rock (for example) you would simple tag a poly and select connected (a hotkey) - or I think you can just double-click or mm click a poly to select all connected in one action (can't remember at the moment) then transform it from there. You can set up your transformation tools to default like the Maya ones. I keep re-setting the pivot too b/c in LW I'm used to clicking outside the model to de-select. I just have to change the way I work a tad (and change around modo a tad) to accomadate myself. Over all it's pretty darn cool. I garuntee you will be seeing all sorts of 'random clone' and 'clone to background points' scripts really soon now that will be great for enviro modelling. Give it some time - think about all the user created MEL's and Lscripts people use just to get by in Maya and LW - Modo doesn't have those yet, but it will soon. You can probably use the airbrush falloff to paint geometry all around the scene - haven't tried it yet but it would be good for enviro modelling.

best,

Greg




i will give you all and example of modeling something...not making a scene...that requires alot of "layers"..when it should be more like maya or even silo which at least have a straight forward object mode. If I making a tank..with rivets..treads...and alot of repeating elements..hundred of them...this is where the layer system breaks down. I'm not talking about composing a scene....I know the diffrerence between Maya and a stand alone modeler....I use Z-Brush everyday and I don't expect to make scenes in it. The CTRL C/CTRL V thing as far as I can tell works only on faces...and then they all move under the same transform unless you reslect them as faces...maybe I am wrong but that has been my experience. Please don't think i am trash talking Modo...I really like this app...I was just hoping for something that would free me most of the time from Maya and its not working out that way. If they had only gone with a more straight forward heirarchy of objects and simple duplication options for that heirarchy I would be happy...I am not giving up yet...I am just disappointed in alot of ways. Its hard getting alot of people like a studio convinced to use a product when there is a big gapping whole in the workflow and a hefty price tag attached. As of right now if Silo had a bevel like Modo I would just assume purchase it for 1/8 the price, until Luxology does a little bit of a better job whoo'ing the maya crowd.

leuey
09-26-2004, 10:37 PM
2byts, yes - I want that too. When I hover over a poly or edge and use my pie menu to split, I don't really want two icons in the pie menu (one for split poly, one for split edge). Just the relevant one according to the selection or hover.

-Greg


one other thing....do any of y ou reckon its possible to create context sensitive pie menus/hotkeys?

that would be the easiest way to consolodate the tools. at least in maya it works that every component has an id number....which u can use to bring up different marking menus...

leuey
09-26-2004, 10:39 PM
The other thing I would anticipate happening soon enough is for some enterprising user (with the time) to create a Maya-like modo where the GUI and the tools are all set-up to work like Maya. Then they'll just upload the config for us. I think it can be done, it's just a matter of time until somebody does it. It's in Lux's best interest and they're obviously open to it.

-Greg


...workflow and a hefty price tag attached. As of right now if Silo had a bevel like Modo I would just assume purchase it for 1/8 the price, until Luxology does a little bit of a better job whoo'ing the maya crowd.

Nando
09-26-2004, 11:20 PM
Maya-like modo where the GUI and the tools are all set-up to work like Maya.

-Greg
I see request like this all the time, and I always wonder if a user wants a app to run like their current app, why then move to a new app, and not stay with what they like?

leuey not singeling you out.. Ive read more post from the LW crowd why Modo isnt like their current app.
I myself want Modo to be fresh, elegent, fast, and intuitive with new ideas in workflow.
To move forward.... folks have to leave the baggage behind instead of bringing it with them. ;)

CB_3D
09-27-2004, 12:24 AM
I see request like this all the time, and I always wonder if a user wants a app to run like their current app, why then move to a new app, and not stay with what they like?

leuey not singeling you out.. Ive read more post from the LW crowd why Modo isnt like their current app.
I myself want Modo to be fresh, elegent, fast, and intuitive with new ideas in workflow.
To move forward.... folks have to leave the baggage behind instead of bringing it with them. ;)
I for myself are very happy with my Lightwave Layouts and keys and will certainly setup Modod like that, should it be possible by the time iŽll adopt it. The garbage iŽll leave behind is the crappy hub, OpenGL and the (incredible) absence of edges, mainly.

I am even prepared to live with the possibilty of separated Modo and Layo (hehe). No reason to abandon your established workflow, especially when one of the big sellingpoints is the shapeshifting stuff. So, in short, makes perfect sense to me having Maya and other Layout CFGs available.

spacemunky
09-27-2004, 12:36 AM
Nando, I agree with you that its important to leave baggage from an old app behind...but not when it works better than the new app. I personally like maya's workflow...and if they would only innivate or buy a company with a good modeling app it would be perfect to me. I'm sorry but the lack of an object mode shows me the luxo guys are stuck in LW thinking mode and not keeping pace with the rest of the industry which ALL have some kind of object mode and duplication......I know it can be done in Modo...but technically i can model anything i want in Maya...but it doesn't mean I want to take the long road to doing it....thats the whole point of getting into a new modeling app is to improve on workflow and not slow it down because of something that is an obvious failing in the vision of the people who created Modo. This app is perfect if you are modeling a character comprised of say 4 meshes...but not for a tank made up of 300 pieces. I will continue to press forward with Modo for now....but Luxo is not going to be around long if they think studios will pick this tool up for $800 with no real effort being made to convert the maya faithful with something so simple. Not to bash the LW people out there....but there is a reason that Maya is the #1 app in the industry....the guys at Luxo should take a big step back before commiting the same mistakes Newtek has for a long time

ambient-whisper
09-27-2004, 12:47 AM
i dunno man. i know more people who complain about mayas modelling than not. its a good glue kind of software but when it comes to modelling theres many better solutions. mostly because its not what alias has ever put much effort into. so getting a maya centric workflow is not the best direction to take modo in. theres some good stuff there, but theres also a lot of really bad points as well.

lwbob
09-27-2004, 12:54 AM
I'm sorry but the lack of an object mode shows me the luxo guys are stuck in LW thinking mode and not keeping pace with the rest of the industry which ALL have some kind of object mode and duplication......
What are you going to do with an object mode in a modeler. Someone really needs to take away munky's copy of Modo, he still isn't getting it. IT IS A MODELER.

If it was a full blown animation package I would agree that it needs an object mode.

MrPG
09-27-2004, 12:58 AM
i think you're getting hung up on that one missing aspect of what you are used to in you workflow/managing objects. The key thing you say is " I personally like maya's workflow..." This issue is subjective, lw'ers have managed many objects with layers/suface names.

And again i'm not saying there isn't room for obvious improvement, but to cancel the success of company on an issue that YOU, from relative experience, feel is a "obvious" failure to keep up with an industry is just plain crazy man, when again for a decade/+ that method/workflow as worked for artists using the app.

c-g
09-27-2004, 01:09 AM
What is it that you are doing that you need to duplicate objects? Are they something like rivits or other similar detail? If it is really a scene you are trying to populate it would seem to make more sense to do this duplication inside Maya since that is where your animation and rendering will happen anyway.

ambient-whisper
09-27-2004, 01:24 AM
What are you going to do with an object mode in a modeler. Someone really needs to take away munky's copy of Modo, he still isn't getting it. IT IS A MODELER.

If it was a full blown animation package I would agree that it needs an object mode.then it seems to me youve never used anything but LW.

logially a MODELLER as you put it works on objects. we work on objects. we model them. that is what we do as modellers.

layers belong to painting applications. layering pages/ elements ontop of each other.
we arent stacking objects ontop of eachother in a modeller. we organize them, put them in groups, manage them in more than one way.

i think there could be some improvement made in this area, where if you make a new object it is put on its own layer automatically. this would make the app work in a way that we can understand a bit easier. each object being its own entity. if we wanted to add an object to a layer we could always press shift ( usually standard for adding ), while we press on the create object button. or if we shift+drag a "layer/object" into another "layer/object".

the system wouldnt work too different than it does now ( atleast it wouldnt need so much work to pull it off. but the way we would identify with scenes would be a bit easier.

( did i write this before btw? i remember writing something like this somewhere but i think i had a problem with my previous msg. i just hope im not sounding like a broken record ).

one thing i currently dont like about the layer system is that in order to make a new object and see it.. i need to make a new layer ( which turns my previously showing layers off. ) into which i can model.

i would preffer if when add an object into the scene i would see exactly what i do before i add the layer/object + the new object.

maybe its something im missing but its obviousely something a lot of others will miss that are comming from applications that deal with this issue a bit more logically.

francescaluce
09-27-2004, 01:25 AM
To move forward.... folks have to leave the baggage behind instead of bringing it with them. nando, are you speaking about lux.. ?? :)




ciao
francesca

leuey
09-27-2004, 01:28 AM
Well - it's a little bit of both. There's nothing wrong with carrying over some of your workflow from another program (one of Modo's features is that it allows this) - I'm not talking so much about a 'Maya' way of doing things in terms of using the tools (or tool features), more like viewport nav., having the marking menues (pie menues) you're used to, keyboard shortcuts you're used to, onscreen widgets - even the UI colors.

I still model in LW Modeler and then bring it in to Maya. I made some UI changes in Modeler to help me out. As of now the this program been out about a week - so there's not a widely known 'Modo-way' of 'doing it'. But once some online tutorials and dvd's start appearing - and this group evolves into more than requests and questions, a "Modo-way' will evolve and people will 'get it'. All the same I'd like some UI consistency between Maya and Modo - and it's not there yet.

I'm looking forward to what the masses come up w/ in terms of techniques and macros, scripts, plugins, gui configs, etc..

best,

Greg


I see request like this all the time, and I always wonder if a user wants a app to run like their current app, why then move to a new app, and not stay with what they like?

leuey not singeling you out.. Ive read more post from the LW crowd why Modo isnt like their current app.
I myself want Modo to be fresh, elegent, fast, and intuitive with new ideas in workflow.
To move forward.... folks have to leave the baggage behind instead of bringing it with them. ;)

spacemunky
09-27-2004, 01:30 AM
thank you ambient......lwbob....try something other than LW and you will see what i mean. If every other program does it...then maybe Luxo should take a hint....and once again I am pleading with Ambient...either take a job with Luxo or make your own app because apparently people with money to make progarams lack the common sense that modelers like us have.

ambient-whisper
09-27-2004, 01:34 AM
well im not saying that lux did a bad job with the issue. its just that they brought too many ideas from just LW into modo. stuff that could be dealt better if there were some other considerations taken.

spacemunky
09-27-2004, 01:55 AM
i agree....and as long as we make it know to Luxo I am hopeful they will answer our requests....I just wish I had more of an excuse to use Modo right now....oh well...looks like i will have to fit it in my schedule to contiue to learn modo until it becomes production ready

kursad_pileksuz
09-27-2004, 01:55 AM
there is no way to satisfy everyone unfortunately, because some programs work fundamentally different than others. and it is not coincidence that modo may have gotten some good ideas from lw modeler, maybe because they are the ones who wrote it? i am personally glad that maya or softimage or max is not fundamental ground of modo. that does not prove that they are bad programs, but people who are profound with lightwave can model things quite fast, it may not be the case for maya, because maya stops you alot of the times (i use it for 4 years), at least for organic modelling

also you need to remember that when most of us were in highschools these guys were coding 3d modelling softwares. so at least you could trust their intuition little bit. i am in no way saying that younger coders lack something, but i mean experience

you guys need to use it at least for a month to evaluate the software fully, until then i am not following most of the argument here personally. i think because everyone waits magical stuff all the time from softwares, and watching too much lord of the rings. modo is not bringing magic, but brings progress, a progress that would lead to more progress.

Sbowling
09-27-2004, 02:12 AM
I think one of the things that spacemunkey is missing is that Layers basically are objects. I wnt from Imagine (which used an object mode) to lightwave (which uses layers) and never missed the object mode of Imagine. In fact, I've found the layer mode to be much more flexible once you get used to it. You can sort your parts by layers, surfaces or even part names. Setting part names allow you to have several parts in a single layer and still be able to move, rotate or manipulate each part on it's own. One thing that I think could be improved is an option to append a number to the end of the part names when using clone tools. One thing I think you mentioned earlier was to make copies of multiple items, such as rivets on a tank. For this you would want to use a point clone type of tool, which I didn't see, but should be easy to create using the included macro/scripting language in modo.

Nando
09-27-2004, 03:10 AM
nando, are you speaking about lux.. ?? :)

ciao
francesca Everybody and anybody in general who is in progress of making an app for VFX/3D, or users moving from and old VFX/3D package to a newly released one ;)
Maxians
Mayans
Xsians
LWians
Etc.

well im not saying that lux did a bad job with the issue. its just that they brought too many ideas from just LW into modo. stuff that could be dealt better if there were some other considerations taken. I totally agree

I got to admit though i havent felt happy about modeling since the LW 5.6 days ;)

MrPG
09-27-2004, 04:09 AM
just throwing something else into the mix, not to steal modos users, but have you thought about xsi foundation? Better subD than maya with that style object management.

its toss up for me with modo or xsi (xsi = $500) one of/main hold up for me at this point before i pure money and time and move on from hobbyist is which makes it to linux first. Thats besides the point though...

I suggest xsi, and im not being a jerk, but you make modo sound like such a daunting tool to learn/use. Its hard for me to see why you picked it up to begin with.

pabloD
09-27-2004, 04:40 AM
I am coming from Maya and I have to say I love the tools in Modo...but some of the things that are in here are just driving me nuts..they just make no sense.
1 Why can't i just duplicate an object...and why is it so damn hard to work with all those layers....it seems like Modo is only made for scenes with two maybe 3 objects in it..not for doing anything with hundreds of objects. The whoel turning layers on and off thing is way too tedious for someone working with environments

I agree with you about the modo Layers vs Maya objects. I have voiced my concerns about that with at least one member of the Luxology team. Perhaps if more people complain they will add an option to switch to Maya (and most other 3d apps) style. Layers have their advantages but I think they are less practical organization wise and less intuitive.

Here's a very simple script that will hopefully ease some of your pain with the Duplicate needs. It will copy the selected geometry (all of it if nothing is selected) from the current layer, add a new layer and paste the copied geometry into the new layer. You can assign it to a hotkey and it will be a little bit more like what you are used to. You will still be dealing with layers though...

http://www.podagraph.com/scripts/modo/poda_Duplicate-CopyToNewLayer.LXM


2 There are no spline modeling tools that I can find...the patch tool is the most unintuitive tool I have ever seen
Keep in mind that modo is only a polygon and subDivision surface modeler. That's all Luxology ever said it was.


3 The action center idea is REALLY BAD....all i do it click off the object and screw everything up....there should be set centers for the objects that you can move only by hitting a button and not by accident...and there is no way I know of know to reset a center to the center of the object
The Action Center is hard to get used to at first, especially for Maya users that are used to grabbing the handle center. However I definitely find modo's method faster for rotating and scaling during modeling than i do hitting Insert and moving the pivot in Maya. Maybe you will never feel this way. Give it some time. You'll get used to it. You may even grow to like it.

When you accidentally move the Action Center look at the Tool Pipe window. You will notice that an "m" appears in the A column next to the tool name (in this case Action Center). That means that it is now in manual mode. If you LMB click on it it will change to an "a". This means that it is back in auto mode and if you are in Action Center Auto mode then the tool will snap to the center of the currently selected geometry (or all geometry in the active layer if nothing is selected).


4 Why do i a have to go in and out of a tool to select something new and use the tool on it...and holding the tool button down is not acceptable either
I couldn't agree with you more! I complained about that too. Hopefully this will be addressed in future releases of modo.


5 Snapping modes need hotkeys and there needs to be some way to make an object "live"...so that you can draw on it with curves and snap other objects to it
You can assign the snapping modes to hotkeys (though I agree that there should be default hotkeys).

The live object snapping that you are talking about is actually in modo already. You will need two layers. You put the geometry you want to constrain in a foreground layer and set the geometry you want to constrain to as a background layer. Then use Constraint/Background (above the 3d viewport). All of your tool handles will be constrained to the surface of your background geometry. This works particularly well with the Element Move Tool. You can even create geometry constrained to the surface (try the Curve Tool or the Tube Tool with Background Constraint). If you need to use the regular Move Tool I suggest setting your Action Center to Selection or Selection Center Auto Axis. Action Center Automatic will not work well because the tool handles will first snap to your cursor location before snapping to the background object surface. This can case an undesirable offset...


6 Is there a object mode or is it only those funky layers
Layers only for now. Like I said, I hope they will change that too.


7 How the hell do I make all my tools autoactivate like they would in maya without using all of them and then setting them to auto
Good question. Don't know that one. Maybe one of the Luxology guys will chime in (I'm actually surprised they haven't already).

As for the Maya vs. modo workflow many of you on both sides of the fence have made very good points. You are never going to please everyone as Kursad said. It is important to note however that modeling in Maya is more of a tools (or lack of tools) issue than a workflow issue. The Maya workflow in general is quite good. There is a reason why Maya is so popular. A lot has to do with marketing muscle but that alone could not "keep the faith". modo definitely is reminicent of Lightwave's modeler and that ain't all bad but I definitely think that more work should have been done to make modo more mainstream. I have told this to members of the Luxology team. Fortunately they are being very agressive about continuing to polish modo so we should hope to see resolutions to some of the problems that non Lightwavers are experiencing. No software is perfect. Fewer still have avoided problems and complaints in version 1.0.

It will be very interesting to see what happens. I am already delighted by the buzz about modo and I hope it continues to grow. I for one have become a fan of modo.

MunCHeR
09-27-2004, 05:29 AM
its toss up for me with modo or xsi (xsi = $500) one of/main hold up for me at this point before i pure money and time and move on from hobbyist is which makes it to linux first.
Moving on from hobbyest, remember modo is just a modeller, you're going to need something for animation/rendering/dynamice etc, and at $500 who could argue with XSI, though foundation as yet isnt available for linux(I think you said that), the linux ports of XSI are built on a win32 layer, so I dont see the point of a linux version at all, I've had enough experience with windows "reliability" COUGH*COUGH :banghead: , and my fingers are crossed for a modo linux version in the near future, and yeah modo is kinda hard to grasp, though I have never used lightwave and come from a maya way of doing things, but then again its a totally new interface and app(xcept for the beta testers) hopefully the training dvd will help as I'm kinda getting stuck when things dont happen like they do in the pdf tutes.

Cheers

MunCH

kursad_pileksuz
09-27-2004, 05:39 AM
well just wondering, if you have used lightwave really? i do not mean doodling, i mean seriously used it?

i think problem is this, everyone thinks that previous package they have used is really good, and next package they buy should be based on that "good" package. and everytime a software developer comes with a new "awesome" software , that means that new awesome software will look like those people`s 3d software plus with some magical functions like 40 million polygons in 3d view, zbrush 3 times, mirai hits back etc.

about this lightwave issue, only things modo is carrying from lightwave are some of the action centers (which mirai has too), some part of layer structures, some deformation tools, old lighwave metanurbs, selection style,some weightmaps idea well i do not know if you think not having a history is a lightwave thing, then you can include that one too.
seriously if you think this is too much based on lightwave, then i do not have much to say about it.

only reason i am commenting about this issue ,not that i am modo or lightwave patriot , but the misconception, disinformation going on here. i do respect most of the people`s profound critics about modo, and things they want to see implemented, and all are good. but as some people commented this is a new package with new style with some good ideas in it , and if you want to move to modo, you gotta live with it to certain degree, because even thou i am a long time user of lightwave and maya, i needed to adjust myself alot personally, and i am glad i did. if you cannot live without certain things and you think that that is the only way you can function in this life, well then you should not be moving to modo seriously,
and honestly you should wait the for next version of your 3d package.
and one final comment about is this, modo is originally designed as an sds modeler, it may be lacking some stuff, but we are hoping that things will be implemented more in the future.

well im not saying that lux did a bad job with the issue. its just that they brought too many ideas from just LW into modo. stuff that could be dealt better if there were some other considerations taken.

Nando
09-27-2004, 06:02 AM
and things they want to see implemented, and all are good.
Plexcus,

Yep thats what we all want and are maybe a bit spoiled becuase we can voice our opinion and most likely Lux will do something about it. as apossed to other 3D manufactureres that dont listen to their cutomer base like......_____________ {insert 3D company here}

just in case some folks dont know of Kursads(aka Plexcus) work take a look below

http://www.plecxus.com/gallery/3d

well one this is for sure Modo is being used 2 of the best 3d artist around

Plex, and Ambient

and I think both have different styles of how to achieve the work they do
I want a mix of both of their tools/workflow in MODO :thumbsup:

kursad_pileksuz
09-27-2004, 06:12 AM
thnx for your open compliments,
but i do not think i am good 3d modeler or something around
i just like to drink tea and model here and there,
but there are some scary serious talent out there really, i am hoping that they would start using modo :) well more people more models more circulation, not necesarily better art, but better than nothing i guess.
and i am really glad that Ambient started using modo as well, i am sure he will enjoy modo more when he is done with constant b1tch1ng :). because i am eager to see some great models from him done in modo

enough complaints people, start making some models and start posting them so we can see them too :D

Dion Burgoyne
09-27-2004, 06:18 AM
Eek... Sorry I haven't chimed in, I was sick all weekend :(

Rather than respond individually to each of the posts, I'd rather clear up a misconception. modo is an extremely fast and clean polygonal and subdivision modeler, and as such, it has ways of working that are new and unfamilier. Arguably none of the methods of working are bad, they are just different... If you have a suggestion for additions to modo then we welcome them with open arms :) just put them in the suggestions forum and we'll do what we can... It'll take me a while to go through the list but I'll try to respond to as much as possible :)

Dion Burgoyne
09-27-2004, 06:43 AM
http://www.afilmdream.com/modo/layerorg.jpg

Ok, It's not as pretty as Ambi's screenshot, but this isn't a mockup, granted it's not object selection, but modo gives you the option to parent layers, select by parent groups, selection sets, part sets, so you can organize your model by however you want, but you are also less limited to how you can select and work with geometry in the same way. Honestly I organize my scenes with file level organization, as opposed to putting every object in one file, that being said I have several objects with 50+ layers which breaks down into 5 catagories, each with 10 subcatagories etc... and I don't see the issue with being able to move through the geometry.

Of course, unlike other apps, modo has room to grow.... Those are some great suggestions Ambi, I'll make sure they get seen....

Action Centers are extremely powerful ways to work, you don't have to use them, especially if you like maya's way of forcing you to use the handles, you can do that too. In modo it's up to you, granted it will take a little getting used to, but it's not a bad thing... it's just different, and once you get used to them I think you'll find that they give you far more control over your model

I think that everything else was addressed... moving over to a new app is never an easy thing, moving to modo is far easier than any app that I've ever seen... but we're here to help you out...

spacemunky
09-27-2004, 07:08 AM
Dion, thanks for the response...but to be honest nothing you said actually addresses my concerns. I understand how the layer system works...its the constant checking and unchecking layers and the need to go to a layer list in order to find your object instead of clicking on it in the window itself that is the problem. This system cannot possibly work for a model with a great many parts. I am not someone who is new to picking up new apps and I do not feel this is a matter of bad vs different. I use Maya, XSI, Max, and Zbrush...as well as Silo and Wings and I can tell you in my professional opinion that this is the first time I have seen an object management setup that I honestly do not think will work for anyone but a character modeler dealing with only a few parts. I am not just flat out knocking Modo...I am really hoping this failing is addressed within the near future or via a work around now so that I can continue to work in Modo on complicated models and not have to return to the horrible tools at my disposal in Maya. On another note, if it was your intention to create an application with the goal of making users of multiple softwares adopt Modo as their modeling app of choice while continuing to use their other app for animation etc....it might have been a good idea to have constructed around what people are familiar with and what is generally accepted as the best choice in this regard. Wether you believe it to be the best system or not...it will turn out to be an achillies heel for bridging the gap for tenative buyers and may in the long term hurt sales to studio's such as the one i work for looking for a modeling alternative, but scared of a high learning curve or large incompatability. Please do not take any of this to offense..I just prefer to be honest with my critique.

Sbowling
09-27-2004, 08:15 AM
This system cannot possibly work for a model with a great many parts. I am not someone who is new to picking up new apps and I do not feel this is a matter of bad vs different. I use Maya, XSI, Max, and Zbrush...as well as Silo and Wings and I can tell you in my professional opinion that this is the first time I have seen an object management setup that I honestly do not think will work for anyone but a character modeler dealing with only a few parts.
You do realize that the Titanic (from the movie of the same name) was modeled using this same type of layer system.

juanjgon
09-27-2004, 08:48 AM
I know that perhaps layer system for modeling could make you think that you cant make complex models ... but beleave me, one thing that make i always model with LW modeler is layer style modeling. I make really complex objets, some of them you can see in this forums, and really complex architecture visualization, and no one modeler with i work give me flexilibility of layers modeling. Modo is a modeler, perhaps this style of management is not good for layout complex scenes, but for modeling it is incredible flexible and fast ... and this is perhaps main reason who make me to get MODO as my main future modeling app.

I know a lot of people working in visualization with MAX, and all of them dream with LW Modeler when they see me working with complex polygonal models. Modo has this workflow, but with new architere, more tools, and faster workflow .... give it time to complete some things and resolve minor bugs, and i think that it could be the solution to polygonal modeling.

ambient-whisper
09-27-2004, 09:47 AM
http://www.afilmdream.com/modo/layerorg.jpg...
jup :) i mentioned that to munky earlier, that you can organize layers.

anyway, just wondering, you recieved my PM that i replied to a few days back?

Ariel
09-27-2004, 11:47 AM
I think that part of the problem why the current system is flawed is because you need to acces a menu in order to do something that in every other app you do visually by clicking on an actual object instead of scrolling through a list.

I come from using extensively LW, then Maya and XSI and I was very disappointed when I saw that Modo still has the same LW-based 'object' mode, where everything is one big object and the only indication of what is a different object is what layer it is on.

No matter how good you make a layer system or a browser list, etc... nothing beats clicking on the object you want and going from there.

If this isn't a hard thing to do (i wouldn't know) I suggest that Luxology adds this selection mode. It will help converting people from Maya, Max, Xsi etc..

juanjgon
09-27-2004, 11:52 AM
No matter how good you make a layer system or a browser list, etc... nothing beats clicking on the object you want and going from there.

Yes, this is true ... but i think that could be easy for Luxology to make an option to select a layer only ckicking over a objetct, perhaps it could be made now with current macros or SDK. But this is a good idea, anyway, and could be made layer use more like objects in other apps. I hope Lux. made this tool soon.

Ariel
09-27-2004, 12:01 PM
This is more what i had in mind:

http://www.arieldiaz.com/images/object-mode.jpg

juanjgon
09-27-2004, 12:05 PM
This is more what i had in mind:

http://www.arieldiaz.com/images/object-mode.jpg

Yes ... this kind of workflow could be perfect :applause:
Other idea could be make a double click, like works now selecting conected, but selecting a layer.

Juzz
09-27-2004, 12:16 PM
I wold like to see somekind of object instancing in Modo. SO that you can have instance layers as well as fully editable layers. These layers would be used so that you can use move, rotate, scale etc on them, but not affect the geometry. Then the instance parent object could be editable so that when I make a change in the geaometry, all the instance layers are also updated. It would be odd to work simultaneously with instances and editable geometry, but I think that I'd rather like it. Naturally instance layers need to have a freeze function.

I know that you can do this by making one copy of the piece and then making the istances in your layout application of choise. but it would help some people who just cannot stand the fact that the modeler is a "lego factory" you use to build the building blocks of your final scene / complex model.

spacemunky
09-27-2004, 04:41 PM
I just hope luxo listens to what people are saying in this thread.......I really want this to finally be the best stand alone modeler so I can finally get the hell away from maya

Jockomo
09-27-2004, 05:24 PM
I think that part of the problem why the current system is flawed is because you need to acces a menu in order to do something that in every other app you do visually by clicking on an actual object instead of scrolling through a list.
While this works fine for small scenes, don't you find it difficult to select objects in heavy scenes with lots of objects? Or for example, how would you select something that is inside another object, like a character inside a house.

I know when LW introduced the ability to just select an object in the scene by clicking on it, I found it annoying, I was always accidently selecting objects I didn't want.

Somehow I don't doubt Lux will address the issue though. Their philosophy seems to be not to pick one way or another, but to incorporate all ways of doing everything and then letting you customise it to your preference.

kursad_pileksuz
09-27-2004, 06:27 PM
not having an object mode helps you to be in component modes all the time, compared to maya where you need to select the component mode!
as i explained in my previous posts, it is possible to achieve some kind of object mode in modo. unfortunately currently object mode is double clicking, compared to selecting. but is it that hard really?




I think that part of the problem why the current system is flawed is because you need to acces a menu in order to do something that in every other app you do visually by clicking on an actual object instead of scrolling through a list.

I come from using extensively LW, then Maya and XSI and I was very disappointed when I saw that Modo still has the same LW-based 'object' mode, where everything is one big object and the only indication of what is a different object is what layer it is on.

No matter how good you make a layer system or a browser list, etc... nothing beats clicking on the object you want and going from there.

If this isn't a hard thing to do (i wouldn't know) I suggest that Luxology adds this selection mode. It will help converting people from Maya, Max, Xsi etc..

Ariel
09-27-2004, 06:54 PM
It is not hard at all, Kursad, but people coming from other packages (and that is all packages, except for LW) are used to having things organized as objects (which you can group, merge, clone, instance, etc..). It just seems more logical. The issue of being in component mode isn't really that big in Modo. There are so many fast ways to switch to component mode that it wouldn't bother me at all (you can use spacebar, keys 1, 2, 3..., pie menus ,etc..).

kursad_pileksuz
09-27-2004, 07:14 PM
i understand, i was trying to explain why modo has choosen that way, becuase it is letting you be in component mode. for example i personally like to pull and push around alot of vertices edges around alot.in maya i cannot get in to that mode right away. i need to select and goto component mode, (i am not big fan of pie menus, mainly shortcuts i use). in modo you can use any tool in any mode. but in no way i am saying that modo does not need some improvement. i thought about a 4th mode which is object mode as well.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=1601885&postcount=36

but thnx for making a mockup, that explains the idea very well

i personally prefer space key to go between vert edge and poly, and would like to select object mode through another key. but that is just me, i am sure when they implement such thing we can find some ways to work for ourselves

i personally use wacom tablet for modelling, and my second key on my wacom pen is programmed for "double" click. so when i need to select and object i just use that button. maybe luxology can include more mapping styles that would answer to different needs

and there are alot of work arounds in modo, that is the thing i was trying to explain, it is not as rigid as max or maya in that sense.it may not be exactly like maya when you configure, but would be close enough to give sympathy, but for example in maya , there is no way in hell you can create a lw style enviroment.

i am sure lux guys will adress some concerns of users of certain packages more in the future. but that will happen only when big amounts of people from certain packages complaint about certain thing naturally

i understand them, but currently i do not think that modo is going to turn 180 degrees and go other way.


It is not hard at all, Kursad, but people coming from other packages (and that is all packages, except for LW) are used to having things organized as objects (which you can group, merge, clone, instance, etc..). It just seems more logical. The issue of being in component mode isn't really that big in Modo. There are so many fast ways to switch to component mode that it wouldn't bother me at all (you can use spacebar, keys 1, 2, 3..., pie menus ,etc..).

ambient-whisper
09-27-2004, 08:07 PM
i hate to say this.( well not really) but i think mirai dealt with this issue perfectly. because it let you be in component mode all the time unless you chose object mode for when you need to organize objects. so you can work on multiple objects' components without any problems. or apply smooth to objects. or applying operations for optimizing/cleaning, etc.etc.

actually to me it doesnt feel like im in component mode all the time in modo for some reason. mainly because of the fact that i have to keep going through the many speed bumps on the way ( dropping tools/ initializing them/ etc )

oo. another thing i would like to see fixed is, when you have orbit selected. because when you deselect the viewport goes kinda bonkers. it would be nice if modo was smart enough to remember the last selected element so i could keep my aimpoint, without having anything selected. ( sometimes afterall i just want to see my model without selections :)

kursad_pileksuz
09-27-2004, 08:14 PM
i personally think that that would be the best way to go currently

spacemunky
09-27-2004, 10:32 PM
the question is not which is better but why there are not both available in a modeler that is supposed to be luring people from multiple apps and making them learn something very counter-intuitive. The question is not which is more efficient but instead how bad do you want business from studios not curruntly using LW. Its about accessability not....ideology

MasonDoran
09-28-2004, 01:12 PM
i understand, i was trying to explain why modo has choosen that way, becuase it is letting you be in component mode. for example i personally like to pull and push around alot of vertices edges around alot.in maya i cannot get in to that mode right away. i need to select and goto component mode, (i am not big fan of pie menus, mainly shortcuts i use).

if it is any help...maya has a default marking menu mapped to alt+q for going into the different component modes. I found that the fastest for me because it is gestural ...you dont need RMB or the Fkeys.

Lux was kind enough to put the same pie menu into Modo.....now if only there was easy way to create/modify/edit those menus?

lougandidas
09-28-2004, 02:10 PM
I really miss the simplicity of Lightwave's "Statistics" panel. It was simple. I find the new one too much and harder to read/find information I want. Could there be a way to have a "classic" statisics panel? :)

Griffon
09-28-2004, 05:57 PM
if it is any help...maya has a default marking menu mapped to alt+q for going into the different component modes. I found that the fastest for me because it is gestural ...you dont need RMB or the Fkeys.

Lux was kind enough to put the same pie menu into Modo.....now if only there was easy way to create/modify/edit those menus?

You can from the Form editor. Their are other threads that should cover this.

ambient-whisper
09-28-2004, 07:20 PM
You can from the Form editor. Their are other threads that should cover this.
yeah. i made a few of my own pie menus. one for creating primitives, and 2 others. its fairly straight forward after you do it once.

thesuit
10-16-2004, 07:56 PM
Let me get two things out of my chest:




1. About the object based system. I have to fully agree with spacemunky, ariel and juanjgon. I believe the target was to appeal to modellers from all apps, and it seems only LW users have a positive point of view in this matter. On the other hand, I agree with some of the things that have been said in defence of the current Modo's layer system. Like for example, when the scene is very crowded its better to have a modeller that helps u get things organized in layers for selecting little objects or hard to reach objects. Yet adressing only layers is BIG FLAW since its not natural to Maya, Max, Xsi and many other apps. Im not comparing but only making a point. For the record I learned both lightwave and maya at the same time in college. So I've had a fair amount of use in both. I eventually changed to Maya over the simplest things like these.



No matter how good you make a layer system or a browser list, etc... nothing beats clicking on the object you want and going from there.HELL YEAH!

Yes, this is true ... but i think that could be easy for Luxology to make an option to select a layer only ckicking over a objetct, perhaps it could be made now with current macros or SDK. But this is a good idea, anyway, and could be made layer use more like objects in other apps. I hope Lux. made this tool soon.Someone please listen to this guy!!!
If someone has this on script then it would be the most useful improvement produced by user to users. If not Lux should be really paying more attention to this thread. I know for fact of two big studios not willing to make the change for stuff like this. And I know my production house won't either if this kind of bugs are not given fast solutions. Of course that is just the opinnion of those studios and my production house, but still it should be worth something.

Anyway, I've had trouble with the other tool issues mentioned here. But the object based is the most awful. About the aut-center of tool manipulators its good and bad. I think it should be a customizable option and not an obligation to use either.

2. I find the viewport mouse navigation somewhat slower and more emmm.... "dumb" compared to Maya/Max/Xsi, and more based on how LW was. Again I thought the goal was to appeal the biggest the mass of modellers. And really does anyone have percents of how many modellers use Maya/Max/Xsi vrs LW systems. Please dont take this offensively. Before LW users and mods jump on me, what I mean to say is that if perhaps not change the default at least make it an option for the majority of modellers to change to what we know. On the other hand perhaps only I am bothered with this viewport mouse navigation issue xpecially on the perspective view. And please dont tell me that I have some buttons at the top of the screen to fix this cause its damn slow to move ur mouse up there just to move around a bit.




This is just my humble opinnion on this. Feel free to correct me if what I say is pure garbage and if you make a nice point then I'll be happy to eat my words!

Griffon
10-16-2004, 08:58 PM
1. About the object based system. I have to fully agree with spacemunky, ariel and juanjgon. I believe the target was to appeal to modellers from all apps, and it seems only LW users have a positive point of view in this matter. On the other hand, I agree with some of the things that have been said in defence of the current Modo's layer system. Like for example, when the scene is very crowded its better to have a modeller that helps u get things organized in layers for selecting little objects or hard to reach objects. Yet adressing only layers is BIG FLAW since its not natural to Maya, Max, Xsi and many other apps. Im not comparing but only making a point. For the record I learned both lightwave and maya at the same time in college. So I've had a fair amount of use in both. I eventually changed to Maya over the simplest things like these.


So, all the layers would always be shown, then in object mode clicking on a mesh would make that layer FG and all the other BG? That would the equivlant to maya where you click on the object then go into component mode.


2. I find the viewport mouse navigation somewhat slower and more emmm.... "dumb" compared to Maya/Max/Xsi, and more based on how LW was. Again I thought the goal was to appeal the biggest the mass of modellers. And really does anyone have percents of how many modellers use Maya/Max/Xsi vrs LW systems. Please dont take this offensively. Before LW users and mods jump on me, what I mean to say is that if perhaps not change the default at least make it an option for the majority of modellers to change to what we know. On the other hand perhaps only I am bothered with this viewport mouse navigation issue xpecially on the perspective view. And please dont tell me that I have some buttons at the top of the screen to fix this cause its damn slow to move ur mouse up there just to move around a bit.


Well the default mouse mapping is designed to eliminate the chording of the mouse. Personally I find this much easier on my fingers/wrists. I'm assuming you've mapped the mouse to Maya mode and turned off trackball rotation. How is it still bad?

thesuit
10-16-2004, 09:34 PM
So, all the layers would always be shown, then in object mode clicking on a mesh would make that layer FG and all the other BG? That would the equivlant to maya where you click on the object then go into component mode.
I dont really understand if this is a question or a comment? :D sorry lol
Anyways I think yeah... it would really improve Modos workflow to be able to click on an object and be directed to that layer. I know that some LW wont agree with this but most of the Maya/Max/Xsi community will. I would advice a way to turn this option on/off if this is not to difficult it could really mean a lot for Modo in workflow and speed (and of course convince more studios using Maya, Max and XSI to change to modo (including my production house))

Well the default mouse mapping is designed to eliminate the chording of the mouse. Personally I find this much easier on my fingers/wrists. I'm assuming you've mapped the mouse to Maya mode and turned off trackball rotation. How is it still bad?
Yes I have the navigation mapped to maya but about that trackball I cant really tell. The problem is on the perspective view when you try to turn the model on simple y (or x or z) axis its very clumsy and offen goes out of control. Maybe this trackball thing could be the solution, maybe. Can you point me to it? Its really hard to explain unless you have tried Maya or its alikes. Maya moves faster this way... very simple. Plus I have a quick question how do u focus on something for example rotating on the perspective view i would like to focus the center of my rotation to an object not necessarily on the center of the modo universe? I dont know if Im explaining this well enough but if u understand what im talkin about, could any of you perhaps give me a solution?

Plus call me stupid, but is there an index search for the user guides? I really dont have the time to look at everything... thanx

leuey
10-16-2004, 09:40 PM
I think that's a good idea - it would save some time. Something along those lines at least. I do think it's important to have some kind of object mode. I'm not really sure how Modo and the future modules will interact if Modo doesn't understand Objects. I would hate to see another division like it is in LW - that would be a crying shame. Maybe they're still implementing it.

This may be the best short term solution.

best,

Greg


[QUOTE=Griffon]So, all the layers would always be shown, then in object mode clicking on a mesh would make that layer FG and all the other BG? That would the equivlant to maya where you click on the object then go into component mode.

Griffon
10-16-2004, 09:44 PM
Yes I have the navigation mapped to maya but about that trackball I cant really tell. The problem is on the perspective view when you try to turn the model on simple y (or x or z) axis its very clumsy and offen goes out of control. Maybe this trackball thing could be the solution, maybe. Can you point me to it? Its really hard to explain unless you have tried Maya or its alikes. Maya moves faster this way... very simple. Plus I have a quick question how do u focus on something for example rotating on the perspective view i would like to focus the center of my rotation to an object not necessarily on the center of the modo universe? I dont know if Im explaining this well enough but if u understand what im talkin about, could any of you perhaps give me a solution?

Plus call me stupid, but is there an index search for the user guides? I really dont have the time to look at everything... thanx

You should see two "pill" drop down menus in your perspective VP. Click on the right one and turn off trackball rotation. To rotate around a selection, you can turn on Orbit Selected, but that only works with trackball...

In my previous life I was a Maya TD and tools programmer. I personally prefer the freedom of the trackball, but that's why we have options . :)

Griffon
10-16-2004, 09:48 PM
I think that's a good idea - it would save some time. Something along those lines at least. I do think it's important to have some kind of object mode. I'm not really sure how Modo and the future modules will interact if Modo doesn't understand Objects. I would hate to see another division like it is in LW - that would be a crying shame. Maybe they're still implementing it.

This may be the best short term solution.

best,

Greg



Internally each layer is its own mesh object. It's really a matter of how they're displayed. We're looking at some options.

kursad_pileksuz
10-16-2004, 10:03 PM
i use most of the tools out there including maya and lightwave. and i yet defend the way things done in modo most of the time. but that would be my personal choice. for example if luxology wants to put "history" as in maya, i would camp in front of luxology and protest them :)
for example modo lets you open multiple files at ones beside layers or you can use morphmaps as straight modelling tool. i am not sure how many sofware out there can do such thing (i know lightwave does ). that is why i do not understand why people compare modo to silo for example.

meanwhile, instancing is a must have i believe. but lets be hopeful, at least if you guys think creatively , you can see that you can use "morph targets" as an instancing tool, which would even let you modify individual instances (without loosing instancing) which other tools cannot do. it is just matter of showing all morph targets at ones.

i think that users need to stop asking same options from other programs , instead they can try to see what modo is really offering. and you cannot do that based on couple of days of use of modo. i know i am saying this in every forum, but it is true. seems like bitching stopped magnificiently recently :)

i personally am interested in getting bugs out some speed improvement and couple of must have additions and tablet-mouse mappings and pressure sensitivity. Because modo lets you find creative solutions without alot of technical digging.

i feel like some people are asking many many options without thinking that fi those stuff would make a software more complicated or not. I think modo is trying to simplfy stuff rather then complicate the matter. and there is a delicate balance between advance and complicated, and i believe modo stops somewhere on the line. maybe not perfectly on it but close enough to make me think that modo is a simple but advance tool

leuey
10-16-2004, 11:53 PM
That's encouraging. It's a great program btw - with all the excitement comes the inevitable feature requests. So sometimes it's easy to forget to compliment the software. Works great in combination with Maya.

While I'm typing I might as well throw in a concept of my own (in regards to the upcoming renderer). I'm not sure if the platform can handle this - but it sure would be interesting to open up Maya in one of the viewports - and select objects, adjust UV's, assign materials, test render, and save out the scene for rendering w/ the upcoming renderer. There's a number of 3rd party renderers for Maya now - but their Achille's heel is the cost per node. Lux. could jump in here if they have a killer renderer, an easy means of using it (working with Maya inside a Lux viewport), and an inexpensive cost per node ($100/node anyone?).

Ok, time to come back to reality.....

best,

Greg

Internally each layer is its own mesh object. It's really a matter of how they're displayed. We're looking at some options.

oliverz3d
10-30-2004, 09:38 AM
Here are a few tips for adjusting to modeling in a pure sub-object/layer modeling system like Modo or LW, environment modeling included.

- Use Parts. When saving an OBJ to Max for example from Modo, all labeled parts become individual objects. I recommend utilizing an underscore system such as: Object_Element in naming your parts. You can quickly reselect your specific object elements through the statistics panel and after export, parts make for quick grouping in your program of choice.
- Have some very basic approach to handling layers. I usually utilize some layers for the final object or environment, where all finished elements are pasted into. Other layers are used for reference pieces and scrap I may need to reuse, and the bulk of layers for whatever I'm modeling at that given point. Leaving blank layers to seperate these different sets or naming/organizing layers provides a solid management solution.
- To define entire objects you can assign polygonal selection sets. Your sub-objects can still be accessed as parts, materials as materials and temp vertex and edge selection sets are also handled seperately.
- Consolidate the layer(s) that represent the final object(s) or scene. However for your development object, do not over consolidate. If you have a variety of objects in an environment, paste items according to easy selection with your lasso tool in the same layer.

So for an entire room you could use two or three layers containing all your finished objects, another layer or two for the room itself. This way you can still quickly manipulate a specific object just by grabbing all its polys rather than using the selection menus. Then continue editing it immediately or cut and paste to another layer for further focused fine detail tweaking.

When you're ready for final export, save it as a differently titled file as you'll most likely need to flatten all the layers. Exporting to Max via OBJ for example, requires your object or environment to be in one layer. As most LW users are aware, if the objects are static and don't require lighting exclusions in Layout, you'll generally gain greater efficiency and faster rendering by using less layers for Layout, avoiding mass object parsing and management issues.


It's a very fluid system, I prefer it to Max or Maya.

BigJay
10-30-2004, 12:12 PM
Just the way things need to be programmed it seems like everything would be an object just because it will be in a container. Calling it a layer or an object it is still a container.

I like Ambiant-whispers layout of all the objects and their existing vertext maps, but that layout should just be a form that I can put together from various data objects. It also makes the interface follow the work flow in the modeling. I don't need a vmap window if there are no vmaps, same as edge selection mode hides vertex tools.

The layers as objects as was mentioned is also a great idea. in object mode selecting a part of a model will bring it to the foreground. There should be also a way to hide a layer/object the same way. maybe hit the hide tool hide an object in object mode

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