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Martinos
08-11-2002, 11:42 AM
I've been working with 3dsmax for the past week and have some slight knowledge of how to model and texture etc..
Now my question is:
Is it worth it to switch to maya and start over?


http://www.xs4all.nl/~martinos/pics/art/tinobrazil9.jpg

dvornik
08-11-2002, 01:11 PM
You could learn Maya. Or learn how to adjust Brazil settings for antialiasing. If you could build a head like that after one week working in max - what the hell, learn both.

Maya is currently considered more high-end than max. Discreet is working hard to catch up. Ultimately they are just tools. Maybe somewhat expensive tools.

Martinos
08-11-2002, 01:40 PM
thx for the compliment.

Ohh what the hell im gonna learn both ;]

dvornik
08-11-2002, 02:18 PM
Still, fix that Brazil rendering. It will make it look much better. Make "Min Samples" 2 or something.

Martinos
08-11-2002, 05:01 PM
kay thx

for your viewing pleasure
http://www.xs4all.nl/~martinos/pics/art/tinobrazil10.jpg

Aljoker
08-11-2002, 10:21 PM
hi guys .

i tried to learn maya but i found it not easy to learn, so i staid with max.

i think max is older than maya is that right ,,:annoyed:

Grey
08-11-2002, 10:32 PM
Max is quite a bit older. It was originally based on 3DStudioViz, if I remember correctly...

CitizenVertex
08-12-2002, 04:29 AM
Max is older by about 18 months, But if you want to count the applications that spawned them, they are about the same age. Both Alias and Autodesk were founded in the early 80's. Autodesk's main focus through the 80's was more on CAD software while Alias was developing animation tools. In 1990, Autodesk shipped 3D Studio R1 (their first animation product) and Alias shipped Power Animator (their second). Power Animator was the evolution of Alias (the animation packge) which first shipped in the mid 80's. Maya evolved from Power Animator which was up to vesion eight before Maya replaced it after 5 years of development. Max replaced 3D Studio Dos which had 4 revisions.

swampthing
08-12-2002, 10:46 PM
I'd say if you plan on doing heavy scenes with lots of detail, learn maya, if you plan on doing lots of low poly game models learn max. Max doesn't handle large scenes or high poly models worth a crap whereas maya handles them much better and maya is also being used in LOTS more games these days. Between the 2 apps i'd say maya is the way to go at the moment and 3dsmax is falling further and further behind.

tubby
08-12-2002, 11:15 PM
im not sure why there is such a huge bandwagon of people who prefer maya over max. i personally am more familiar with max and have been using it for about 2 years. it rarely ever had crashes and even on the large scenes it handles just fine. ive started learning maya because i need to take classes in it, but i personally find it frustrating. maybe its because im new to it but i cant get myself to want to learn maya when i know i can do everything 3 times as fast and in less steps in max.i would love to get a clearer explanation of why swampthing thinks max is falling behind, not because im trying to be a smartass, but because i truley want to know what makes people prefer maya.

Crode
08-13-2002, 12:47 AM
well i must say up front that ive never touched max ever but ill compare to XSI which ive been taught both at the same time. Ive used both for about a year

the reason i prefer maya is because it seems i can stumble my way through something that ive never done before and get a decent result without getting frustrated.

err let me put it another way. if theres something i want to do that ive never thought of i can figure it out pretty easily.

tools and menus have names that make sense and i can tell what they do. things are generally organized

hypershader is great for seeing whats happening without doing a render. IPR is great too

I can get some decent results playing with some advanced features such as cloth, particles, paint effects, fur. everythings been done before by someone else and can show me the basics. XSI is still kinda iffy. Not a lot of people have used the advanced features of xsi (such as cloth) because... well.. they are new and are kinda buggy and nobody wants to touch that stuff ;)

koinu
08-16-2002, 11:52 AM
:surprised Hey I've ben tutoring around maya for the past 9 months and yes drop max like a bad habit.... Maya is a lot more difficult to learn (10 ways to do anything). Give it a try and see what you get. The maya interface is different from max although you can learn it... Watch for tutorials....

dvornik
08-16-2002, 01:34 PM
I absolutely resent the fact that you have to press that many keys and buttons to do anything in Maya. As if I don't have a corpal tunnel syndrom already on both hands. Maybe I'll get used to it. In max I just point with a wacom to a tool, do what a have to do and that's it.

Leo73
08-16-2002, 01:42 PM
I think when it comes down to it, its a matter of perference. I have learned maya and have currently being using max for over 4 years. They are both great applications and with the release of 5 you see a much needed upgrade to max. as far as detailed scenes, I personally have dealt with high-res models and scenes consisting of over 2 million+ polys and found max to handle it just fine. So like I said in the beginning it comes down to preference for what you want to work with and what you can afford.

thinKer3D
08-16-2002, 05:34 PM
::

Discreet is working hard to catch up

actually, it's all marketing. Maya was originally pitched to Hollywood, 3ds max was pitched to Game developers / all things to all people. Discreet is strengthening its marketing approach towards movie makers.

Maya is trying to attract more game developers and 3ds max is trying to attract more big film houses. Both in some way are trying to catch-up in to each other but max has the massive support, popularity and professional user base behind it, not to mention all the millions of crack versions people learn with.
::

ilasolomon
08-16-2002, 10:02 PM
i truley want to know what makes people prefer maya

nothing, just the name & the propaganda behind it.
(people say:"hey, ILM & ... use maya, so it is better!", seems
they don't know that thier MAYAs are loaded with TONS of
extra in-house special plug-ins written by noble experts &
use external expensive renderer like PRMAN or MRAY always.
MAX always is faster, chepaer, more flixable, has more commercial supports,
as stable as maya, & has Brazil, FR & VRay! (even max default
scanline renderer knocks maya's down...no?...watch WARCRAFT3 cutscenes)

paconavarro
08-16-2002, 10:21 PM
Ila youre absolutely RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


MAX RULEZ

tubby
08-16-2002, 10:34 PM
ila_solomon, i couldn't have said it better:beer:

thinKer3D
08-16-2002, 10:41 PM
:: ila I agree with you. Maya was written to be cross platform and runs on irix and other SGI platforms. Max is a Windows native app only and we all know the nasty attitude towards Windows. This attitude is changing and have been changing since Windows NT 4.0. Also, 64bit platforms are a norm in big film houses. No need to worry, 64bit processors and OS is right around the corner. I'd like to hear the next excuse then.

Take Dreamworks for a moment. I am sure if they decided to use Max in their main production pipepline and requested for a 64bit version of Max, I believe discreet can fulfill the request in addition to a 64bit version of Windows XP which Microsoft is already beta testing I think and can be available to large film studios like dreamworks. Just my $0.02 :shrug:
::

thinKer3D
08-16-2002, 10:45 PM
:: personally, Brazil and finalRender whipe the floor with PRMAN ::

:: Have you ever tried to write proprietary tools in Maya? Personally I think the structure is so sloppy compare to max's maxscript! :rolleyes:
::

-wT-
08-17-2002, 07:42 PM
I don't want to, yet again, get lynched and flamed, so I'm not going to write a milelong reply with stuff that hurts someone, so I'm just going to say that the ilas comment wasn't too overall thought, I think.

Grey
08-17-2002, 08:29 PM
This is second hand news to me, but it's what I've heard...

Maya's NURBS tools are supposed to be vastly superior to Max's, especially for animation. Too, Maya's CA tools I know for fact are integrated rather than requiring of a plugin like CS. (Yes I know Max has bones natively).

Marcel
08-18-2002, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Grey
Maya's NURBS tools are supposed to be vastly superior to Max's, especially for animation. T

True, Max NURBS suck. But who uses Nurbs these days anyway? Subdivisions are all over the place...

Grey
08-18-2002, 09:20 AM
Who uses NURBS?

Ford, Boeng, Chrystler, GMC, LockheedMartin, LucasFilms, Pixar...

shall I go on?

Martinos
08-18-2002, 09:25 AM
i've started with maya now and i just LUV the interface with markingmenus and the MEL scripts u can easily make yourself.
I also like the fact that u can easily make something completely in 3d in just the perspective view. (i know this also can be done in 3dsmax, only in maya it seems more natural).
Just one small thing if u make a few splines that define for example a face when u intersect the splines in 3dsmax u get all these extra vertices, i understand this is also the same for maya only with maya u just select the entire splinecage and press one button to get rid of all these extra vertices.
Imo maya seems more userfriendly..

When i start maya i can't help but smile all the time ;)

tubby
08-18-2002, 09:54 AM
yah, thats one thing that i agree with, max's nurbs are trivial.



hmmm... maxscripts are available and also easy to use in max, don't know about how hard it is to write them. how does perspective view in maya seem more "natural"? because im sort of new to the maya experience and i find myself puzzled why i can't rotate on all axis in any viewport other than perspective(maybe im doing something wrong). where do you get extra vertices? do you mean when you surface the splines? and if so just choose the iterations on the surface.what button controls that in maya?

Marcel
08-18-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Grey
Who uses NURBS?

Ford, Boeng, Chrystler, GMC, LockheedMartin, LucasFilms, Pixar...

shall I go on?

Dude! Why do you keep refering to Boeing and automitive companies as computer graphics companies. Their business is making cars, not animations of cars! Do you really think the designers at Boeing have any impact on the computer graphics industry? I'd bet they don't even know what a texture map is!

As for Lucasfilm and Pixar, they've used NURBS in the past, but as far as I know all their character stuff nowadays is done with subdivisions.
Some hard surface modelling is still done with NURBS, but I really believe that when you don't need the mathematical precision you much better off with subdivisions.

Out of all the models in the CG_Talk gallery, 98% is made with subdivisions or plain modelling with polies. To me that says enough.

Grey
08-18-2002, 04:22 PM
Marcel,

Have you ever heard of virtual wind tunnel testing or virtual crash testing?

Expand your mined, Dude... lose the tunnel vision.

In your post you imply that:

1. Hollywood is the only place 3D animation is done
2. Animation is only concerned with figure animation

Neither is true.

And do the people at Boeng know what a texture map is? Yah, dude, they have to make flight simulators for those big boxes that pilots sit in to learn to fly... Ever been in one?

Marcel
08-18-2002, 06:51 PM
Have you ever heard of virtual wind tunnel testing or virtual crash testing?

What does that have to do with computer graphics? As far as I know virtual crash testing is a technical process. The question "how will this car deform on impact" has absolutely nothing to do with what a 3d artist does. Yeah sure, you get to see an animation of a body of a car deforming in 3d, but does that make these researchers 3d artists? I don't think so.


In your post you imply that:
1. Hollywood is the only place 3D animation is done
2. Animation is only concerned with figure animation

Neither is true.

I never even mentioned Hollywood in my post, I don't understand why you bring that into the discussion.
And how did I imply that animation is only concerned with figure animation? Because I mentioned character modelling?

And do the people at Boeng know what a texture map is? Yah, dude, they have to make flight simulators for those big boxes that pilots sit in to learn to fly... Ever been in one?

I always thought that those hundreds of designers at Boeing were designing airplanes. Never knew that they were actually all working on a flight simulator instead.

Generally speaking Boeing and Chrysler and all those other companies have nothing to do with computer graphics. They produce vehicles, not animations.

btw, it's spelled Boeing, not Boeng...

Grey
08-18-2002, 06:59 PM
Marcel, I'll let you stay at my house when you come to Seattle to tour the Boeng facilities to show you how wrong you are on every count :D

ilasolomon
08-18-2002, 07:03 PM
i'm agreed with Marcel
maybe aero/space/automotive industries use NURBS/SPLINE
maybe they use MAYA for visualization or something like that,
but it's not their primary tool...they actually use some in-house
softwares, atleast commercial CAD/CAM systems.
we are talking about ARTISTS not ENGINEERS i think...atleast
'artist/programers' not 'engineers/programers'! :)
did you ever try to attach an object to a vertex of another
object in Maya? .... this simple act needs some Mel Scripts.
i just want to say that Maya is suitable for production
companies that can hire some programers beside their
artists to do their job perfectly with maya...not small houses
or individual/freelancer ones.

Grey
08-18-2002, 07:18 PM
Okay, all the manufacturers I mentioned are huge, HUGE companies.

When you sa Research and Development in association with a company like Alias|Wavefront and when you say it in association with a company like Boeng, it's like comparing a caveman learning to use fire with... well Boeng...

So much of their R&D involves computer simulation/animation and visualization that they make hollywood's 3D use look pretty insignificant.

-wT-
08-18-2002, 07:33 PM
I haven't heard a good reason not to use Maya in this thread, it seems that some of you just mock Maya because it's known? Isn't your favorite program good enough, so you have to make sure everybody knows Maya is bad?

From what I've heard of people who mock Maya, and tell that "It's crap because you can't do xxxxxxx" or "It's crap because doing xxxxxx takes so long time!", and they're totally wrong because they don't know how to do it.
You know ila, that thing you asked there, I don't have Maya open at me right now, but I'd say (Although I've never tried it) it would take me... maybe a minute to do that. Oh and did you mean that I have to just move the object to the vertex, or keep it there? Both are simple to do, and you just made a fool of yourself because you blamed Maya while you didn't know how easy it is to do that, but were immediately shouting that it needs coding and etc.

I can say I don't understand ppl who prefer Max over Maya, but that's just because I've used it so little (And the version was 3), so I don't know it in and out, but I do know Maya enough to (Hopefully) never let it go.
So please, you who have the urge to mock progies just for the heck of it, could you even learn the other program enough to make sure it really ISN'T possible in it, before you come here crying?
Thank you

Edit: Oh and ask Svenip about NURBS, he uses them and can propably tell you what those are good for.

Marcel
08-18-2002, 07:55 PM
I agree with -wt-, it's not possible to compare the different packages unless you have worked with each of them for a long time (and with that I mean years of experience with each package).

Without that you cannot make a good comparison, and you'll only end up in complaining about trivial stuff.

Chromecyborg
08-18-2002, 07:58 PM
I feel Maya and Max are equal in there own respects yet i prefer max.
Maya has many more GOODIES like that tool where you can "paint" hair or tree's etc but i believe its interface is very clumsy and ill thought out it took me 3 days to understand max's interface yet i still dont get maya after 3 months.
For example try paning or zooming in Maya its a hell of a job to grab all those keys and link them right and god forbid you get one button wrong you spend half an hour fixing your mistake.

Thats just my 2 cents

ilasolomon
08-18-2002, 10:03 PM
and you just made a fool of yourself because you blamed Maya while you didn't know how easy it is to do that

well -wT-...one of my friends that is Artist/Programer &
knows Maya verywell & never uses max told me that.
could you tell me how do you do that without using scripting?
just want to be sure it's possible like max, the task is linking an
object to a vertex of another object.
& don't be angry!...i didn't blame Maya or Mock it. i just said
they are very alike & IMO max is easier to learn/use. am i fool?

p.s.: 3,4 of my friends that use maya for their works suffer
of Maya's renderer so much. they always jealous of Max' antialaising & super-sampleing speed/quality!

thinKer3D
08-18-2002, 11:07 PM
:: The final truth! ::

:: I still don't see anything special about maya. Even maya hair, cloth and paint feature are not the final words on creative satisfaction. Maya's popularity is built on proprietary tools and testimonials from ILM, Dreamworks and others. Any 3D package with proprietary tools can do almost anything.

But out of the box without the proprietary tools or Maya ulimited, if you looked at 3ds max 4 and maya complete 4.0, 3ds max a more attractive package to learn and to become a professional in.

Size? Maya install was like over 400MB when I installed it. Max 4 is about 150MB. Again, ports are never as good as natives!

Ease of use? maya has some ways to go. Too many complex operation just for simple tasks.

Power/Speed?, They are both powerful. Some say they are equivalent but max is a Windows native app and a port wil never be as good as a native no matter how much you try to justify it. Added to that, max supports DirectX. DirectX is extremely fast, powerful and is only available on Windows!

Features? They both have tons of features but with out of the box modeling and native renderer, 3ds max smokes maya. Case in point? Warcraft 3! Nuff said!

Extensible? Both apps are very deep and extensible. Maxscript is powerful and is far easier to implement. Any programmer who has looked at maxscripts documentation knows just how easy and organized it is. MEL on the other hand is powerful but sloppy.

Portable? Maya was built to be portable. 3ds max is not (it only runs on Windows) Simple! Why? Just look at the Mac version of Maya. It makes no marketing sense. The decision was a bad one. The mac 3d market is not big enough or even significant at this moment. Didn't they notice that Steve Jobs never pushed macs as a high end, scalable 3d platform? And since the parent company of Maya (SGI) is in trouble it would be wise to not waste further resources and money on the mac platform and focus on soldifying the product. Discreet choice to stay on a platform with around 90% usage is a good move! Any other reason is like an act of sympathy. Apple is the last company to have any sympathy for!

Finally there's the 64bit computing from AMD Opteron and Intel itanium right around the corner, maya will find it even harder to compete against 3ds max 64bit on Windows 64bit. On IRIX though, it seems to have carved a respectable market with Hollywood. Enjoy it while it lasts! :cool:

I hope this clears all the confusion between the two programs. If it doesn't, oh well, I tried. For the record, this will be my last post breaking down 3ds max and maya for a long, long time. I really want to focus my energy and brain power on creating!

::

OrestesMantra
08-19-2002, 12:33 AM
For example try paning or zooming in Maya its a hell of a job to grab all those keys and link them right and god forbid you get one button wrong you spend half an hour fixing your mistake.

-It took me less than an hour to learn how to zoom and pan efficiently.I dont see whats so hard about it since you only need to hit "Alt" and your mouse buttons.
-Ever heard of "Undo?"

flamedevil
08-19-2002, 02:28 AM
Thinker why don't you talk about the Maya interface ?
Isnt a good point of critic?

I think one of the principal power of a software is in the interface.
Maya have the best interface i've ever seen, the hotbox is the way to work comfortably and you can CUSTOMIZE it like you want.

Look at 3dsmax, all that icons and that menus who take all the place of your screen, this is HORRIBLE !

So,I don't want to waste my time to talk again and again about maya.

Well If you want to work with a professional software flexible and available on all OS, choose Maya.


a Maya lover :)

popnGEAR
08-19-2002, 03:00 AM
This thread is useless.

Chris
08-19-2002, 03:22 AM
This thread is useless, but kinda funny... :)

Hey Flamedevil, if you like the hotbox in Maya, check out the quad menu in Max... the quadmenu is the way to work comfortably and you can CUSTOMIZE it like you want. Don't like all the icons taking up the screen? Press 'ctrl - x'. Viola!

Point is, both apps have customisable UI's, so if you dont like Max, change it. If you dont like Maya, change it. Simple. :shrug:

flamedevil
08-19-2002, 03:37 AM
It's just a question, i don't want to start another debate.
Is it possible to access to all commands of 3ds in the quadmenu ?

Chris
08-19-2002, 03:48 AM
you can pretty much put anything you want in there, you can also make new quadmenus for alt-rclick ctrl-rclick shift-rclick etc etc with differing content, as well as setting up different commands to appear depending on what you are doing at the time (eg poly modelling in the vertex sub mode). You can dump maxscripts in there too so you can program any functionality you can think of (eg quadmenu to snapshot your current screen & automatically email it to your boss...) :) There are bound to be a few exeptions that you cant put in the quad menu, I cant think of any off hand though... :beer:

flamedevil
08-19-2002, 03:55 AM
i didn't know that, i started cg with 3dsmax 3 and i found it too boring !
So, i tried maya and now i can't quit this.

The customization of the quadmenu is appeared in 3dsmax 5 or it existed in the v4 ?

Thanks for your informations

flamedevil
08-19-2002, 04:00 AM
Oww, what the hell is that ? :D

Chris
08-19-2002, 04:01 AM
no worries, The customisation is possible in v4. you just go to 'customise user interface' there is a section along the top for the quad menu - you can change it there to your hearts content! :) (another tip, once you have selected a function, it stores that as the 'last used' function, so if you right click again, clicking on the yellow square right next to the mouse on the corresponding quad menu will activate the same function, without having to move the mouse more than 1 or 2 millimetres - saves on that RSI! :) )

[edit] Oh Crap, we're all in for it now flameDEVIL... LOL ;) :D If my computer bursts into flames & sucks me into hell, I'm blaming you! :)

flamedevil
08-19-2002, 04:09 AM
ok:scream: , thanx for those info chris, i think i'll never quit maya but it's interesting to know that.

:beer:

LFShade
08-19-2002, 04:58 AM
Customizable UI:

Maya: yes
Max : yes

Powerful scripting language:

Maya: yes
Max : yes

Accepts plugins:

Maya: yes
Max : yes

Handles all primary aspects of 3D content creation:

Maya: yes
Max : yes

Has been used in numerous professional production pipelines to produce engaging, high-quality artwork and entertainment:

Maya: yes
Max : yes


All else being pretty much equal, which do you prefer to use? Got it? Then f***ing use it and quit complaining about the other! It's a Goddamn waste of time!

:annoyed:

Marcel
08-19-2002, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by flamedevil
i didn't know that, i started cg with 3dsmax 3 and i found it too boring !
So, i tried maya and now i can't quit this.

Now there is a argument I've never heard. "I've tried Max and found it too boring !" What kind of argument is that?
You're using a certain program because it is hip? :surprised

Martinos
08-19-2002, 08:27 AM
let's put an end to all this bickering cause this is a waste of thread.
The question isn't which program IS the best, but which program you PREFER to the other and why..

peace out!

flamedevil
08-19-2002, 09:20 AM
You're using a certain program because it is hip?

What do you mean ?

Yes i began with 3dsmax and after 1 month i quitted it because i didn't like it and i discovered Maya. That's all.

Maybe you ddidn't understand , i don't speak english very well.

rok
08-19-2002, 09:41 AM
Yeah Yeah youīre all wrong. Max didnīt derive from viz itīs actually the other way around. Maya is difficult to learn. Just dump it all and get the most intuitive modeler ever.

Lightwave can be learned in a couple īo days. :thumbsup:

-wT-
08-19-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by ila_solomon


well -wT-...one of my friends that is Artist/Programer &
knows Maya verywell & never uses max told me that.
could you tell me how do you do that without using scripting?
just want to be sure it's possible like max, the task is linking an
object to a vertex of another object.
& don't be angry!...i didn't blame Maya or Mock it. i just said
they are very alike & IMO max is easier to learn/use. am i fool?

p.s.: 3,4 of my friends that use maya for their works suffer
of Maya's renderer so much. they always jealous of Max' antialaising & super-sampleing speed/quality!

Well I have to apologize then, but your posts just seemed like you were just shouting insults at Maya, so apparently it was just a misunderstanding.

And concerning the object -> vertex, it was easier than I thought, just moved the object to the place it's supposed to stay, and parented to the other object. Now when you move/scale/rotate the first object, the second object stays in it's place (Like on the vertex). Other way was to parent a locator the same way as the second object, and then constraint the second object to the locator. By combining different constraints types, I'd say you will get what you want.

But, as it's with Maya, those are just one ways to do it, and may not suit how you need it to operate, so you may need to investigate a bit more to get what you want. (But it's possible)


And this is rather pointless thread nevertheless, some of you prefer Max over Maya, and I find it the other way around, big deal! :thumbsup:

ilasolomon
08-19-2002, 05:13 PM
just moved the object to the place it's supposed to stay, and parented to the other object. Now when you move/scale/rotate the first object, the second object stays in it's place

:D hahaha LOL... are you joking -wt- ?!
well, i mean linking to a vertex, for example, if the parent object
is waving or deforming or something else...the child obj stay
attach to that certain vertex, i hope you got it ;)

btw, i just checkd the max5 pre-release out, & i think i never-ever
need Maya! :) :) :)

-wT-
08-19-2002, 05:46 PM
Ah, so you want that much of a movement happen to it. Well, it would be easy to just add one line of "code", which you won't propably accept anymore, as it would be "scripting"? Although it would just be like telling the program that "I want this locator to have it's position be the position of this vertex", which can't (propably) be done straight from the interface

Lunatique
08-20-2002, 07:53 AM
My personal experience:

I used Max for over 3 years. I used it mostly for texturing, as I was a texture artist for games. I tried to do some basic modelling in it, and some lighting as well.

In those 3 years, I always felt uncomfortable in Max. I never produced anything other than for work.

Then, earlier this year, I dropped Max and started to learn Maya. Everything clicked just like *snaps finger* THAT.

For me, Maya was far more intuitive, stable, and powerful, without needing an army of commercial plugins.

But, this is only my own experience. It could be different for others. It could also be that I just accumulated a lot of knowledge by reading about 3D in the last few years, and started applying them in Maya. I dont' know. I'm sure I can now go back to Max and produce the same results as I could in Maya now that I know more about 3D in general.

-wT-
08-20-2002, 04:08 PM
Same thing for me Lunatique, it's just that different people prefer differemnt methods. Like I like Maya when I have my left hand on the keyboard, and right hand on the mouse, and then I starts to zoom around the marking menus, and maybe occasionaly use the hotbox ;). Everything just happens so fast, clicking icons is just too slow for me :).

Oh, and the one thing that I like alot is customization, and that's what Maya is all about, I love the MEL. The same thing is why I don't want a Mac. Pc's are easier to fiddle around with, and when I have the time and inspiration, I like to build stuff to it (Like the watercooler, a few new fan holes, an LCD for the front, motherboard voltage-mod...)
Maybe Mac's could be tweaked and overclocked and all, but it sure is more easy to fry those, as it would most propably involve soldering and all (Not that I wouldn't know how to, but I just don't want to risk it... the voltage-mod was enough for me, good thing I didn't break anything)
And don't get me wrong, I didn't say Max couldn't be customized (Though haven't seen any screenies of it being operated with a just one big perspective view with zero icons anywhere... would be cool to see :)) it's just that I started with Max, moved to Maya while still didn't know much, and now when I know Maya very thoroughly, why suddenly change?

Don't even know why I wrote this story, but have fun reading ;)

LFShade
08-20-2002, 05:15 PM
just for you -wT- :

Max in expert mode with a custom right-click menu and some context-sensitive commands (this is a shot of the whole screen, just sized down for byte-limit reasons). Not too shabby for little ol' Max;)

-wT-
08-20-2002, 06:31 PM
Thanks, now I know somebody uses it that way too, go LFShade :thumbsup:

rok
08-20-2002, 06:32 PM
hahaha :thumbsup:

I love when people are proven wrong. I thought that everyone knew Max has very big customization possibilities. Didnīt that start in v.2 (5) already ?

Well personally I think this thread has gone way too far. Try reading the original post.

LFShade
08-20-2002, 06:49 PM
Yep, this whole thread should have been over at post #3! But what the heck, I love an excuse to spout every now and again...

:wavey:

rok
08-20-2002, 07:04 PM
Me too.

Sometimes itīs like "I must resist complaining" - obviously I canīt :D

-wT-
08-20-2002, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by rok
hahaha :thumbsup:

I love when people are proven wrong. I thought that everyone knew Max has very big customization possibilities. Didnīt that start in v.2 (5) already ?

Well personally I think this thread has gone way too far. Try reading the original post.

Proven wrong? :p
I didn't say it wasn't possible, I just said that I've never seen Max being used like that :)

flamedevil
08-20-2002, 11:57 PM
LFShade, just look, i just press the space bar and i have access to ALL my app, not just modeling tools.

thinKer3D
08-21-2002, 01:42 AM
:: flamedevil, lord have mercy, that is such an ulgly, generic looking UI :::rolleyes:

LFShade
08-21-2002, 01:48 AM
I can put any commands I want from Max into that right-click menu, have several right-click menus lined up by using any key+right-mouse combo, and I can have everything on the menu be context-sensitive so that I don't need the entire system menu exposed to me when all I'm doing is editing a poly object at the face level.

There's a certain flexibility in both applications. That's all I'm saying:)

flamedevil
08-21-2002, 01:49 AM
Thinker, Did you try it ?

-wT-
08-21-2002, 10:23 AM
Uh oh, I can smell a flamewar starting... hmmm *snif snif*, just about now :)

But I do have to ask (If that thinker3D's reply wasn't a joke, which I think it was), does somebody really care how the UI looks like?

verti
08-21-2002, 12:14 PM
i showed the UI of both apps to the people that did not work with them EVER...

even that they said Maya's UI is much cleaner for them... and that they would choose it to learn...

for me... i like Cinema4d UI most... it's nicely designed (yeah... i care about it haha) this app does not have those "pro" tools implemented yet... it's a much simpler app... but i just like it's interface very much...

my 2 cents... no WAR :)))

rok
08-21-2002, 01:19 PM
Hell yeah I care what the ui looks like. A cluttered and unlogical laid out UiI, hinder the workflow a lot. I guess thatīs why companies make their products customizable in the first place - productivity is the name of the game.

Only app I know that has a straight on approach is Lightwave. No guessing what icons mean. I know a lot of you people claim studios use max/maya/xsi. Expandebility...plugin renderers etc. Fact is that LW actually have these 3rd party plugins built in.

My last words in this discussion are, that the more applications you master the more attractive you will be hiring. Unfortunably very few people can consider themselves truly masters in more than one app.

2 cents.........

LFShade
08-21-2002, 04:20 PM
You don't need to be a master of any application. You do need to be a master of your art -- or at least come close to it. As long as you know what kind of tools are available to you in a given application in a general sense, your artistic skill will allow you to do the quality of work that employers are looking for.

rok
08-21-2002, 04:51 PM
So what youīre saying is that, studios are willing to offer training regardless. Well maybe where you come from - not here. Working on a budget youīre pretty much always expected to deliver - am I wrong. :beer:

I agree that you have to master your art but that pretty much gives itself huh ? Iīm talking from a production point of view solely - from personal projects I expect evrything and nothing. :surprised

LFShade
08-21-2002, 05:13 PM
I'm not saying that every studio is willing to fully train every new hire in the software they use. Some of them are, if they use in-house tools. What I'm saying is that it is less important to know where every tool and button is in an application than it is to know what the tools do and in what situations to apply them. The rest is a quick trip to the pages of a manual. A person who is skilled at modeling in Max can be perfectly productive with Maya's modeling tools after only a couple of minutes of figuring out where the buttons are, and that's what studios count on: not software experts, but artists who know how to use the general 3D toolset effectively.

rok
08-21-2002, 05:45 PM
I only agree to some point of your observations. I agree that studios first and foremost are looking at your artistic skills. Which, if weīre not talking concept/sketching art here, pretty much boils down to knowing the app at hand. I agree that studios using proprietary tools (who isnīt?) wiil and will have to offer training.

Where I definately donīt agree is your statement that everyone can change application and work effeicient by using the manual.
Well I for one have tried to enter the Maya world of modelling - had to give it up for the time being. Changing app. is imo not only a question of reading a manual. As far as Iīm concerned (and Iīve tried ém all) thereīs a big difference in the methods used in the various programs. Iīm not saying that it canīt be done, just that it takes a lot of practice, patience and not least time to make transition from say Max to Houdini.

Iīve read several reviews where the learning curve is rated alongside the actual content inthe given package.

Iīm not and have never been trying to favour one app instead of another. I simply donīt have the deeper insight to all the strenghts and weaknesses of the different apps out there.

Hope I cleared up what I meant in the first place...Nuff said :beer:

Kaiser_Sose
08-22-2002, 07:58 AM
Do not forget LW

LFShade
08-22-2002, 08:56 AM
Nobody's forgetting Lightwave, Kaiser_Sose, it's just not a part of what's being discussed here. Why is it that LW users have such a tendency to feel that their app belongs in absolutely every 3D software discussion? When the topic of the thread is essentially a Max vs. Maya comparison, it's so typical for one of you Lightwavers to chime in with a "what about me!" post. It's just not relevant!

And the worst part is, so many of you LW people will read this and think I'm bashing your favorite program:hmm:

rok
08-22-2002, 08:56 AM
I will never ever forget Lw, been using it for 9 years now (I think).
To me thatīs the only application for 3d - always has been (probably) always will be :buttrock:

Lw 7.5
Deep Paint 3d 2/Deep UV
Messiah
Pshop 7

thatīs my choice

rok
08-22-2002, 09:00 AM
Hell yeah.

I for one feel like being bashed.

Why is that Max and Maya users have such an tendency to think they have the answer to everything. There are other apps around you know ?

Essentially f...k the app - get to work........NOW

playmesumch00ns
08-22-2002, 03:45 PM
This ole chestnut always makes me laugh: it's like being at school,
"My bubblegum card's better than your bubblegum card!"
"No it's not"
"Right I'll bash your head in"

Grow up. I found an app I like and I'll use it. If it doesn't do something I need it to do then I just write the function. I can safely say I will *never* need to pay like Ģ100000000 for some fancy plug-in renderer.

-wT-
08-22-2002, 04:00 PM
I'm with playmesumch00ns, Maya is the app for me, I enjoy working with it, and don't care if someone else isn't possibly using it.

rok
08-22-2002, 04:44 PM
Damn...Thatīs what I were trying to say in the first place. :)

Donīt really care what youīre (ab)using. Just donīt think that You got the holy grail because some studios prefer one in favor of another. As far as im concerned this whole app bashing started with a post showing a custom UI setup in Maya, stating something like that wasnīt possible in Max. Fact is that every app out there more or less do the same thing.

thinKer3D
08-22-2002, 04:47 PM
::
OMG! this thread is still going on?

Let this be page be the last one pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!
::

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