Game Art Challenge #10: Mini Tank

[Spankspeople]

Looks like Boneparte from Dominion Tank Police, but a wee bit bigger.

Me likey. =P

[AdamAtomic]

hahahaha - "hella pants" - i love you britons!

anyways, i think its a very cool design - good eye for detail, especially the chains on the back, almost nobody remembers those! having the front treads mostly off the ground doesn't seem to serve any apparent purpose though...i mean, the reason that tanks have treads instead of wheels is to increase their ground-contact surface area, and therefore increase traction. but then if you go the fully mobile like "leg" route then it starts to look like the tachis/fuchis from gits...tricky stuff! i am still trying to balance it myself. another place to look for inspiration is the car from master blaster, that thing was TIGHT. actually on second glance the lobster-claw style sketch you have is kind of appealing, you might be able to work that angle more. staying tuned...

[AndyH]

Hm. good point on the front treads. If i was gonna be hyper real, id just give it one set of tracks, like regular tanks, but it needs something to make it erm... purdy! I love the way how bonaparte from dominion can leap and use its 4 tracks as stabilisers when skidding and firing its riot gun - its a superb design. Im trying to do something of a similar vein, or at least a hybrid.

However the final designs turn out, im sticking with the size of it, the chunky gun, the minigun and ammo barrel, and the speed and manouverability of it. Id like to imagine it can go around 100mph and is as manouverable as a car. The only thing i really need to think about is the tread configuration.

[Spankspeople]

Instead of the long tread on the front, perhaps a gripping wheel of some sort? Maybe two if you want to keep the quadroped(sp?) feel to it...

[charlie.howell]

I like the idea! Based on your previous work I've seen this little tank should come out awesome. It will be fun to watch the progress.

[KolbyJukes]

looking cool, can't wait to see how it turns out.

[Ingurum]

jah i agree, cant wait to see the process

[kinkypuss]

i like the direction you're heading with the concept..
don't waste any time, work work work.. :D

[AndyH]

Because I found it so hard to get my ideas on paper i spent about an hour and a half making a ROUGH mockup in 3d.
It actually turned out a lot better than i expected, and ill probably use it as a starting point for modeling.
The only bits I arent sure on are the front tread designs (still looks too much like halo's scorpion tanks) and the turret configuration. The main cannon is far too close to the pilot area, and needs space for the ammo storage and reloader.
I thought maybe i could place the cannon to the side and that way, the pilot (just a temp model i made previously to show scale at the moment) would have easy access to the cannon mechanism for reloading / cleaning etc.
I think that because of the size, it is gonna be a 1 person vehicle.
Still a fair bit of work to do, but the basic shape is there.

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-02.jpg

[Ingurum]

uh that was quick, very very nice, even its only a mockup.

like it, keep it up :)

[charlie.howell]

Coming along good man!

What if you only had one tread in the front that pivoted side to side to help stear. That would be different from the halo tank and still give a unique style...

I like the big fat cannon and mini gun combo. That should do some dammage. :twisted:

Can't wait to see the finished model!

[AdamAtomic]

lovin the ammo "keg" and the shell ejection port on the main gun, very cool. not lovin the headlights and antenna as much, but thats what rough drafts are for! a couple more thoughts as far as realism:

1) short barreled cannons are inherently less accurate than long-barreled cannons. it looks like the barrel is rifled on the inside already, but there may be some other steps you could take. if i remember i'll look in my tanks book tonight. could look cool if you exaggerated the rifling in the barrel too (would surely eat up those polys though).

2) you might consider fashioning some kind of recoil control system for the main gun. regular tanks have it easy - the barrel pushes straight back into the turret and into the shock absorbers, etc. with the cannon off to the side of the turret, it seems like it could pretty easily snap the turret around, and possibly damage the vehicle. something as simple as like some big vents or something, like you see on .50 cal sniper rifles, might work.

As usual, stayin tuned...

[speveo]

I like the direction this is going Andy.

Couple suggestions.

I would widen the distance between the front two treads (almost to the point where theyre on a different line to the rear tread) and narrow it even more is it tapers to the front . . this would put an interesting emphasis on the rear as being more for power generation, and the front more for stability and control. Sort of like a pouncing cat in a way, if you catch my drift. Maybe lengthen the front treads as well.

Hmm, add more support rings to the minigun, it looks a tad to flimsy with only the one support.

The antenna seem more like tendrils than antenna . . maybe you should keep the width uniform, or not taper the antenna to such a sharp point.

I think as a mockup this is great.

Cheers

Steve

[AndyH]

Thanks for your comments - it took me 4 hours to do those poor sketches, yet it took me 1 hour to make that mockup model!
You seem to know a fair bit about tanks adam - what exactly do you mean about the rifling part? I agree with the recoil thing - i was gonna put some vents on the cannon. I may even lengthen the cannon a little bit and make it smaller in diameter.
Ive got a big book on tanks featuring supposedly every tank made from WWI to present day - maybe i should read it :rolleyes:
The treads are still up for discussion. I want it to be feasible, yet something different. I like the idea of independant treads so it can strafe, turn whilst moving forward, rise for a sniping position and even spread its weight as a stabiliser.
Good point about the minigun and antenna steve. - Holy crap! that suggestion you made about the front treads would make it look just like the battle tank from thundercats! Remember it?

Im gonna be out a lot of the weekend, so ill try and do some more in me lunch hour tomorrow. I dont wanna start modeling properly until im 100% happy with the design.

[fraa]

Wow, so fast, from 2D sketch to 3D ! Impressive !
There's one of your initial sketch that I like more than your current 3D design :
http://fra.planet-d.net/posts/chal/ga10_handy_01.jpg
I like it 'coz it perfectly fits into a cube, say it seems more compact and solid.
Moreover, I think you can *en/larg~e you^r can-non* a little bit more ! Seriously :)

[vrapp]

Great mockup Andy! I really like it so far, but I think that if you would go a bit more for the four-legged appearance (as in the top-right of your intial concept), then it would look a lot cooler. :)

I also agree with suggestions mentioned before, mainly about the antenna, minigun support rings and bigger cannon.

Keep it up!

/Vidar

[AndyH]

Hm... Ill have a mess with it lunchtime - ill make 3 versions to decide which route I should take.
A realistic, sensible version,
A stylised, slightly more OTT version,
An off the wall, legs and huge gun version.

By the way, whats happened to the gallery sorting options? It now sorts it by the thread creation date rather than the most recent post date. How can you change it so it STAYS like how i want it? Its pissin me orf!

[AdamAtomic]

you've probably got the same book i do - its huge and hardcover, but was pretty cheap - "tank encyclopedia" or something? anyways, "rifling" is something that you do to the inside of a gun barrel that makes the ammunition spin as it exits; its basically a spiralling set of grooves that go from the tip of the gun down to the loading chamber. Kind of how if you spiral an American football when you throw it it will go straighter, get it? anyways, some really exaggerated rifling could look cool, but it would jack up the polycount. might be a good candidate for bump/normal mapping or something? certainly not a good candidate for mockups!

anyhoo, i took a quick look through my tank book and couldn't find anything specifically about recoil systems or systems for increasing accuracy. regardless, am looking forward to the new mockups!

[AndyH]

Oh - i know what you mean now - if you look on the mockups, the edges inside the barrel do twist a little bit, so i intended to put those in from the start. I dunno how much of an anime fan you are, but on the patlabor 3 box set there is a bonus disc called 'minipato' and its a 2d puppet show type produced by production IG and done in lightwave. Its kind of a spoof of patlabor, and one episode features a very comprehensive discussion on ballistics and the characteristics an armoured machine must have for certain jobs - pretty intresting stuff - even if it is presented by SD 2D cutouts on sticks...

[vrapp]

Patlabor rocks! :D

(I just felt like adding that)

[AndyH]

Yup. I was gonna make Alphonse in 3d until I decided to do something of my own design for once!

If you can find minipato - get it! The one with Shige (the labor mechanic) is genuinely funny (only if youre an anime nerd) cos it references to other giant robot shows and does an ace piss take on the old combining robot type series, as well as explaining the stupidity of nuclear powered robots, giant robots in small cities, weapon types etc..

[AndyH]

Erm, nothing to say - just thought id break the 900 posts barrier!

Woo hoo!

[AndyH]

A lil update - 3 different versions.
Ive centered the cannon because the recoil issue cannot be resolved, and the inner mechanisms just wouldnt fit if they were to one side.
Next, im gonna go nuts and try more outlandish designs (such as legs) then look at what ive got and come to a decision by monday.

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-03.jpg

[AdamAtomic]

i think i've gotta vote for "compact and wheeled" - love the tapered barrel of the cannon and the giant ammo drum off the back. could use some chunky-ass headlamps instead of those little dinky ones though! Also, it looks like the metal skirt might impede the steering of the front wheels a little bit? not sure. yay for sketching in 3d!

[charlie.howell]

I like "compact" the best, but the placement of the ammo tank on "compact and wheeled" looks better to me. But, thats just a presonal opinion...

What are thinking of doing for the character?

[DeathTrip]

I like the "Large" design best.

[AndyH]

I know what you mean about the minigun ammo tub placement, but im trying to keep it realistic, and ive seen several instances of miniguns with the ammo configuration like this:
http://airwar.hihome.com/instruction/aa-weapon/gun2-m61a1.jpg
It may not be wise to totally stick to this, because this minigun configuration is probably from a fighter plane, and the tub will be concealed, but on my tank it sticks out like a bullseye, but then again, it looks stuck on like it was found and just welded on (it is the post apocalypse, after all!)

The compact version is probably as far as im willing to go without compromising the realisticness of it - any more size increases to the guns, headlamps etc and it would start looking cartoony and like something out of metal slug.
Some may think "egh - too much realism is boring", but i want to make something that looks unusual (ive never seen a small tank before) yet feasible.

As for the pilot - i aint sure yet. Ill deal with him last. Ill proably do some kind of uniformed military man similar to WW1 style infantry, but more beat up. All i have in my mind is a military jacket, a helmet, and stubbled and sooty face poking out underneath it.

[vrapp]

How about the compact wheeled one with legs?
Or you could keep the weels, just putting them at the end of four legs, that way they would have individual "springs" for each wheel. :)

/Vidar

[hanzo]

:scream: Andy, excellent! this is exactly what I meant when I suggested BIG GUNS!

wicked ideas, I like all three V :thumbsup:, although about your comment the compact or mini, already looks like metal slug, just less rounded.. shoot but that's no matter I love it, be waiting to see your texture work on this one...

How about the compact wheeled one with legs?
ah I agree I like this one very much, :sad: what about?

PS: Andy she looks kinda Kawai in the tanks, I'm going to relish the moment! :twisted: hahaha!

[andrewley]

Its looking great Andy. Always enjoy seeing the work of a fellow Englishman :) I like the design in the top right corner of your concept sketches the best.

[Devised_Poly]

This is gonna be pretty sweet when its done. Looking at all of your concpets I like the following elements the most. The tapered cannon barrel in the "compact & wheeled" design. The treads in the up most design in your very first post, along with the drum of the mini gun. Even though most of the drums are facing the other way, it just makes more sense with the tank. And it would make even more sense to have the ammo drum be at an angle to help deflect incoming shots. Replacing the treads with legs would be interesting... although, I cant decide which would look better. 2 in front, 2 in the back, or just having four legs.

[AndyH]

Lil update:

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-04.jpg

I havent been able to do that much on it due to being hungover most of the weekend :D
I totally redesigned the body to be more compact, practical, and to accommodate the driver and all the mechanical gubbins inside. I might dump the minigun and replace it with a much smaller machine gun - having a massive gatling gun seems a bit daft on a small tank designed for city-based combat. The only downside to this is that itll lose the ammo belt and tub, which works so well. I added the vents on the cannon cos i thought itd look cool having steam come out when it fires, though the shell ejection port looks a little 'stuck on'.
Its gonna be a 2-person vehicle now - looking in my big book o' tanks, ive never seen a single piloted tank - no matter how small they are. Im also gonna abandon the legs idea - it doesnt seem feasible to have a walking tank anytime in the next 30 years, and i think in order to reach speeds of 60+mph, tracks would be best (and easier to animate heheh) Im trying to design a tank that would look like it could exist in the next 10-20 years as terrorism etc increases in cities. The furthest im willing to go as far as alternate designs go is a wheeled/ tracked design.
Im getting bored of the design process, and im running out of ideas, so im gonna try and come up with a final design by tonight so i can start modeling it properly. Ill take a look at my older designs, see what is working and what isnt, and combine them with it in its current state, as well as all the feedback.
Ta.

[giza-di]

i have some reference on short barreled cannons , i suppose you based the design on that of a special cavalry squad operating in wwII*normandy. there was a similar anti-stationary tank firing 80lb tnt shells...

only objection is the functionality of minigun: mean weapon for light armored targets or power armor infantry, these targets are more mobile than the design of this tank so i suppose it should fit on a turret

[Dirj]

Very cool. I'd say the chaingun should be slightly beefier, to match the exageratted, cartoony, blown up proportions of the rest of the tank. And on a turret, probably, as mentioned above.

The only other thing I have to say is very minor, more about the feel. Maybe there should be a little variation in the basic shape of the tank itself, like slightly thinner in the front, and expanding a tiny bit in the rear, or slant a tiny bit upwards. Nothing really.

Again, purely genious work, awesome feel. It's easy to see where you got your inspiration.

[AdamAtomic]

wow! great improvements! practical and compact, new but clearly evolved from modern tank design. awesome progress.

suggestion for a minigun replacement: regular .50 cal anti-infantry mounted machine gun that is fired from inside the tank itself. potentially could be mounted on the rear of the turret, and used as an optional firing mode (anti-infantry mode or whatever) - the gunner's seat could basically flip around to face the machine gun's controls - or maybe the turret itself would spin as the pilot's seat spun or something. Small window or simple camera system would be effective for aiming. Usually there is some kind of fabric/leather/rubber gasket thing that seals up around the edge of the gun, so that dust and debris don't get inside the tank. you could even mount additional gas canister launchers on that back side too, or add an underslung tear-gas canister launcher to the machine gun itself. cannon would almost be like a special-tactics weapon at that point, used for siege or anti-vehicle applications. the rest of the time the vehicle would rely on the anti-infantry machine gun and tear gas.

its been fun watching this evolve! great design decisions so far, excited to see the beginnings of the final model!

[AndyH]

Thanks for the comments - especially you adam - some great ideas there. I already made changes to the minigun - ive made it a standard heavy machine gun, but its mounted to a sliding rail that runs 360 deg. around the cockpit hole. that way, the gunner can pop out and swivel around giving a good firing radius. I also like the idea of the tear gas launcher running parralel to the main gun. Ill continue to refine the idea tonight and hopefully post an update.
The only obstacle i have to overcome is what to do about the tracks/ wheel issue. Do I have 2 rear tracks with an armoured wheel at the front? 2 large tracks running down the whole length of the tank? 4 sets of tracks with the front ones being steerable? Ive seen some wierd vehicles that use a combination to acheive manouverability - anyone seen those crazy german motorbike thingies with bike handlebars at the front, and tracks at the back?
Ill try and come to a solution tonight.

[AndyH]

Finished the design process!
Ive removed the bulky, impractical minigun, in favourable of a more compact, conventional and flexible heavy machine gun. There is a guide rail running around the rim of the cockpit hole that the gun can slide on, allowing for 360 degree shooting, independant of the turret direction.

Ive also done a quick photoshop jobbie on it to test out basic colour schemes (ignore the purple gun!)

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-05.jpg

Im satisfied with the design now - the only thing that im still unsure of is the design and usefulness of the front treads - are they really neccesary? will they really improve manouverability? Ill tackle this remaining problem when i get to modeling them properly.
Another problem for me is the tracks - i REALLY want them to look solid, chunky and spiky - not just a texture. If i made them, how on earth can i animate them? Im sure there are a few tutes out there on animating tank treads, so again, ill worry about it later.
Ill start modeling properly asap and also start thinking about the pilot.

Hope everyone is satisfied with the design.

[AdamAtomic]

Haha - purple gun from hue shift? love the gun rail - its a good excuse for the pilot to poke out the top and look cool too! I'm not sure how much "steerable" treads would help or hinder the maneuverability. Simple, 2-treaded tanks can literally rotate in place, and turn by throttling down the inside track. The major advantage that I see to a simple, static 4-track setup is redundancy; if 1 track is blown off, there are still enough to drive on! Maybe the tank could even have some kind of system where if one track is permanently damaged, it could be ejected from the hull and the remaining track would slide into the middle...

Some thoughts about the actual tracks: military tank treads are made from extremely hard, poky metal and whatnot, while civilian/street-legal treads are made from hard rubber, like car or tractor tires. if this tank is mainly for urban combat, would it have a mix of the two? rubber is certainly more prone to fire/heat, while the metal would pretty easily destroy the city the tank was protecting (or invading, i guess - could be part of the plan :P ). Either way, the material should help determine the look.

Is there an emergency escape for the pilot? If the turret got blasted it'd be nice if he/she still had a way out...

[kinkypuss]

hehe.. looking wicked.. i like the smoke grenade lauchers touch, and the new machine gun whice deffinitely suits the city more.. nice work..

[Wayne Adams]

Very nice planning and development so far, Andy. I'm also using a cyclic rate based weapon on mine, but I decided to belt feed it from a crate instead. It's more for looks, (because belts of ammo are sexy :)) but you're on track keeping yours in a drum. Whats the poly count up too?

Later

[Dirj]

I dunno, I kind of liked it better with the smoke launchers in the (previous arrangement), added more to the cartoony feel than having them in the row. Otherwise, looking awesome. Again, I think the machine gun should be a little beefier.

[AndyH]

Adam - yeah i thought that the concealed interior machine guns would be good cos they would protect the gunner, as well as keep a low profile on the tank, but the top mounted HMG is a perfect excuse to model the gunner with a huge frickin machine gun, firing away :scream:

Dirj - its not meant to be cartoony - its meant to be feasible and realistic. Theres no real point to a huge gatling gun and an oversized cannon when its built for speed and manouverability. If i wouldve gone for stylised, i would have made the cannon huge, the tracks tapered and the minigun huge too. And had daffy duck as the pilot :rolleyes:

[speveo]

I really love the direction this design has taken. Positive steps all the way. The proportions in the first draft felt a tad strange, but you really nailed it with these latest designs. If this is your draught, I am really keen to see the final model.

Cooool.

Steve

[Ghostscape]

Coupla things:

First, the extra gas cans on the back seem to present a wonderful target while not adding a ton to the design.

It seems a little short...how does the driver sit? It looks like he'd be a little cramped in there, especially with a powerful engine, computer equipment, fueltank, and ammo storage.

A front-mounted weapon would be cool for the driver, as would a bumper or something to knock stuff out of the way. If this is going to be used in an urban environment with siege applications, giving it a way to enter a building without damaging/blocking the barrel would be good to consider, as well. http://www.baumholder.army.mil/museum/images/T19%20Halftrack.jpg Old halftracks had a protruding bumper to help them knock down saplings and other barriers, using their front wheels to help roll over stuff while pushing with their heavy rear treads.

Front mounted wheels or a front-mounted bar or front roller-treads (several pipes or wheels instead of a track) would allow it to roll up cars, blockades, etc. whereas front mounted treads might provide better traction.

[AndyH]

Eek! you got me there on the realism issue, ghostscape!
Your points are all valid and useful, but its theyve come a bit too late in the design process for me to be arsed changing it - ive already begun modeling it properly now. As for the space issue, itll be tight, but i think i can fit 2 people in there - ive seen some cutaways of WW1 tanks and theyre incredibly cramped considering the size of the tanks!
Looking at your points, i think that in order to make the tank fit the requirements you mentioned, it may end up looking pretty ugly - ive got a good blend of functionality and 'coolness' at the moment in my opinion.

A question for y'all:
When making mechanical / geometric stuff, is it best to join pieces together for the sake of tidyness, UVing and mesh continuity, or just keep them as seporate objects intersecting each other? The latter method saves a lot on polys, but i was wondering if intersecting shapes in games engines are a no-no...
Hope someone can clarify this.

[Ghostscape]

Intersecting geometry causes a couple of problems.

First, it can cause Z fighting/z-buffer issues. This will only happen if verts are very close to the intersected surface. So if you're going to bury a cylinder into a cube, make it run deep. These are caused by floating point inaccuracies. This is not really a problem any more so long as you don't have two intersecting surfaces very close to each other.

Second, they cause lighting issues with per-vertex lighting. Since lighting values are calculated for each vertex and then blended across the face in a per-vertex shading model, if there aren't welded verts in the intersection, it will light incorrectly.

Third, if you have open-ended, non-airtight models (when you intersect geometry you'll usually cut off the interior caps to save tris) they will not render stencil shadows correctly and will tear and otherwise wig the **** out. It's not very pretty. Far Cry had this problem with their shadows and their characters and it totally ruined their shadows.

Intersecting geometry doesn't really cause any problems in most commercial game engines so long as you avoid setting up a z-fight, are aware that it will light a little funkily (it will always look hard edged and won't smooth correctly.) and don't delete end caps if you're intersecting geometry and need it to cast stencil shadows.

[AndyH]

Thanks a lot for all that - ive always wondered what the negative things are with intersecting geometry. Im used to making airtight characters, so this is kinda new to me. Itll also make things easier for me when UVing it.

[Konstruct]

pretty cool, the smoke launchers add a great deal for some reason,- and i usuallly think mini guns look lame, but the tri barrel one you had looked dope. (since you ditched it you mind if I steal it?)


-ghost scape, thats some helpful info for shure.

[AndyH]

More progress:
The model is about 60% complete. Its still in pieces and needs optimising, beveling and tweaking. Its 2875 triangles at the moment. I think it needs more accessories and detail to make it look busier and used, but having more bits hanging off will make my life harder when texturing, and they will compromise the airtight mesh im trying to maintain.
The tracks are conformed to a spline curve, so they actually work like real caterpillar treads, but im still trying to come up with a solution to animate them in a practical and easy way.
Im probably use something like this grey colour - its more appropriate giving its urban use, i mean, what use is green camo in a post apocalyptic land?
Gonna start thinking about the pilot soon. Not sure if i should only model him from the waist up, or do the lot...

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-06.jpg

[andrewley]

wow - its looking great Andy - looking forward to updates

[Ingurum]

very nice, what render did u use for the left pic? or is it just a light? :D

[AndyH]

Its just light tracer with a skylight - global illumination basically. Ill bake it on to the map once its uv'd

[spudmonkey]

Apologies if this has been covered already (skimming the threads rather than reading them all!) but could you not take some of the polys from the top and bottom of the tracks and use them on the front edge of the tracks? It looks rather pointy when it doesn't really need to.

Nice compact design though :)

[AdamAtomic]

Spud - i think Andy is planning on animating the tracks, which is why there are all those subs on the top and bottom.

Andy - looks great! hatch could maybe be a bit chunkier (not cartoony though). other than that, very sexy! eager to see the details and texture...

[Ghostscape]

About those tracks, if you're going to animate them with a scrolling UVs shader, you're going to want to make sure that all of the subdivisions are the same size. It looks like you've got one smaller one there, the first top flat one.

Also, how do you bake skylighting? I've never been able to get it to work right in Max, it always renders out pure black.

[Serul]

I like where this is going, nice compact feel to it. You can obviously see where you got your inspiration from but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Aside from the few things Ghostscape mentions, it looks quite feasable.

Come to think of it feels like it could fit in Advance Wars (the 3D one). :)

Can't wait to start on my own entry. Too much work still... :banghead:

[AndyH]

Started the pilot and nearly finished the modeling on him. 612 triangles, but i could spare a few on the head. Still keeping with the realism, its based on modern tank crew uniforms, with the helmet inspired from the 'Patlabor' anime series. Hes gonna be a stubbly black guy with dust and dirt - maybe he'll have some goggles or a cigar. I dunno wether i should model him in place with his hands on the gun - it would be the 'tidiest' option, but it wouldnt be practical if i wanted to animate him getting out or opening the hatch. Im cutting his body off at the knees cos you never see them but i might make all of him if i have some polies left over. That way i can have him sitting on the hull or something for a beauty render to show scale.
The tank itself is well under budget, so i can now go over it and add bevels and details before i begin the mammoth task of uving :surprised

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-07.jpg

Ghostscape - you use the 'render to texture' thing on the rendering menu. You turn off the automatic UV generation (providing you have already made them) and add a parameter to bake on to it - diffuse map usually works best. Set the size, then render it out. Then save the image and overlay it on your texture in photoshop. It can only bake 1 object at a time as far as i know, so make sure you attach objects where needed.
Also, about the tracks, i was initially going to do them as a scrolling texture, but chunky, heavy looking treads are important on my design, so cos i have the extra polies, i thought id try and animate them as geometry on a path. The thinner track or 2 you see is a problem with a spline path point handle.

Phew - i dont half jabber on!

[AndyH]

Modeling is pretty much complete. Its 4017 triangles, so i may add / refine stuff as I UV it.
Im dreading the UVing cos its not quite symmetrical, so space will be tight. Im ditching the steering action on the front tracks now.

Any comments?

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-08.jpg

[Ingurum]

just absolutely awsome! nice work andy

[Serul]

Really nice looking, will look awesome when done... :thumbsup:
Nice work on the pilot, even the helmet looks familiar. :D

Can't you use those extra poly's to smooth out those treads a bit? :shrug: You got them might as well use them...

And it looks like on the top right picture on the back of the turret, on one of those three boxy things there is a hole in the mesh. Is that supposed to be there?

[AndyH]

even the helmet looks familiar. :DIts influenced by the helmet design for the labor pilots from the patlabor anime. Whaddaya mean, even? what else looks familiar? :hmm:

Can't you use those extra poly's to smooth out those treads a bit?The treads are blocky for a reason - each section will be textured in such a way that it will represent a piece of the caterpillar tread - and since these cant bend, it makes sense to use the steps of the geometry to define these.

on one of those three boxy things there is a hole in the meshI know - its meant to be one of those basket things you sometimes see on the back of tanks. It would be too poly-intensive to model each rung seporately, so im gonna use an alpha mapped box

[Serul]

Sorry, it's just that the compact design of the tank itself is very familiar compared to like the tank from Dominion Tank Police, that's all. It's somewhat clear as to where you got your inspiration from, but that's not a bad thing or anything. :)

I see where you are going with those treads, thanks for clearing it up, same for the basket thingy. :)

[AndyH]

Phew! After another wasted weekend, ive got the UVs finished.
As for the polys left over that I havent used? to hell with them - im getting a bit bored with this, so im pushing to get it finished soon. Plus, as always, when I have a model on the go, everything comes to a standstill until it is finished! I cant leave it alone!

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-09.jpg

[Oldbean]

Great stuff, can't wait to see it textured.

I haven't been following your thread as much as I'd wanted because of the non-bumping thing (I'm too lazy to switch pages and too dumb to click the last post button). I love the chunky look.

I should really update my thread (http://cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=173840) now, I've nearly done with the UVs.

[AndyH]

Update!
Radiosity is freshly baked onto my model, and im only just starting with the actual texturing. The images below are screencaps, so the radiosity works a treat!
Worked on the pilot for a bit- im pleased with his head, but his body still needs a lot of work, but it looks ok from a distance. The texture on the tracks is only tempoary.
Thats a photo of Ving Rhames on his head by the way. I couldnt be arsed painting a face map from scratch when its only gonna be tiny.

All texture detail elsewhere is pretty much nonexistent, so spare the 'your textures need more work' type comments! :D
http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-10.jpg

[AndyH]

Update!
Done some more texturing - the tracks, pilot and the bits you see with maps on are pretty much finished, save for a few colour tweaks here and there.
Im dreading the main areas - all that blank space to fill.... erk.....
Crits welcome.

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-11.jpg

[Serul]

Nice... I love all the detail you got in the textures. :)

I can't really see them, so if they are there ignore me, but maybe you could add the spiral grooves inside the barrel?

Otherwise keep it up! Almost there... at least that's what it looks like. :)

[Ingurum]

Nice... I love all the detail you got in the textures. :)

I can't really see them, so if they are there ignore me, but maybe you could add the spiral grooves inside the barrel?

Otherwise keep it up! Almost there... at least that's what it looks like. :)
jup i agree very nice texture work

[AdamAtomic]

lookin great! for the blank spots you could try starting with a photo texture of peeling paint or something along those lines, and build from there maybe? either that or a simple urban camo pattern, and just start adding details like bolts and latches and all that stuff :P love that baked radiosity!

[Fudge]

hey andy can you check your pm?

Fudge

P.s Very nice model indeed whats the poly count?

[AndyH]

Update!
Textures are about 75% done now. more dirt, scratches, dents, decals, panels & shading is needed before im totally pleased with it. Once thats done, ive gotta rig the pilot and try and come up with some sort of simple controls for the tracks.
With any luck, the next pic youll see will be the finished one.

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-12.jpg

[PKD]

looks great, very nice texturing. I think you are one of the few that update constantly.

[KolbyJukes]

Andy, it's looking just awesome...

I love what you did with the pilot, he looks so high rez. This just reminds me I've got to stop lazing around and get to work on my entry.

-K.

[Oldbean]

Brilliant!

I would really appreciate some texture tips Andy, how do you get the metal looking so good?

I'm serious, a link to a tute or a quick step by step would really make my month.

[kickrocks]

Its look great Andy, love the cannon.

Radiosity is freshly baked onto my model, and im only just starting with the actual texturing. The images below are screencaps, so the radiosity works a treat!
I'm a noob to low poly work and baking lighting, if your willing could you elaborate a bit? Looking forward to seeing the final texture.

[AndyH]

Yay! my 1000th post! Not bad for a years worth of cgtalk membership.

Double woohoo - the textures are complete!
Well, at least the colour map. The bump and spec map is still to come if i can be bothered with it. I think it works well enough with just the colour map. These screencaps are made with 100% self-illumination.

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-13.jpg

As for the metal question - i have a useful photo of a worn metal door - i cloned out the rivets and handle, then used the free transform / distort in photoshop to fit them to the uvs so that the edges line up with the geometry edges. Then i messed with the blending and added layers of scratches and dirt.
Baking? Use the render to texture tool in max to bake on the diffuse values. There are tons of options for this, so i reccomend you look in the manual or experiment.

All thats left now is to quickly make some bump & spec maps (if neccesary), rig the pilot and do the final pics.
Wanna get it out the way soon so i can relax and live! Once i start a project, it dominates my life until its finished! Hence the quick completion date.

[Serul]

Nice work, I see you added the spiral grooves in the barrel. :D

Too me it seemes that you went a little overboard with scratches and bumps, well maybe. The metal looks a little too brittle right now in some areas.
I wonder what the tank would have looked like if you used the style of patterns and colors from the door/hatch...

I like the addition of the rope on the front. Whatever happened to the basket thingy on the back of the turret? I guess it didn't turn out too well?

In any case awesome work! :thumbsup:

[DevilHacker]

He-he-he my first post...

First I want to say that I have been looking/reading these forms for a month now so I have seen lots of your work Andy, and that it is always very cool!

As for this post, as always its very good work it is looking very cool, the only thing that bugs me is the greenish/tarnish color of the groves inside of the turret... I just think that they would not be as noticeable on a real tank.... But besides that it is looking very cool and i cant help but to stop and marvel at this tank every time I see it! :thumbsup:

[Konstruct]

wow that texture looks awesome. REALLY like the metal.
i kinda feel though that you should try some colors, maybe camo or some trim of some sort.
check out:
http://www.pushbak.org/
for some possible color scheme inspirations.
>portfolio- and in there theres some concept work with colors. good stuff and you should visit pbaks site anywayz, cause he`s a G. :D

[keeganb]

Hey man, Brilliant work there! As far as I can tell it's the best entry so far but I do have one or two things to mention.
First off I think it's a shame that with your ability you chose to just do a tank, I just think it's not that original.
I've one gripe with the model and thats the tank tracks. They seem very lowpoly compared to the rest of the vehicle and I see you had alot of polys to spare!
Your texturing is spot on but I think the main texture for the tank looks more like rock/concrete rather than metal.
Anyway keep it up man, looks awesome!
Keegan

[AndyH]

Id say its pretty much finished now. Ive rigged the pilot and added the rest of the maps. The bump and specular maps are just a lazy re-jigging of the layers for the colour map. No specifically painted areas. I might re-paint them if i think they are lacking. Im not sure if they are really neccesary - it looked so nice with the baked radiosity and the metal texture and too much going on might ruin it. The spec maps definately help to make it look more metallic though.

Renders are done using 1 directional light with shadows and 1 omni backlight.
Maps are as follows:
Main body = 1x 1024 col map / 1x 1024 bump map / 1x 512 spec map
Pilot & tracks = 1x 512 col map / 1x 512 bump map / 1x 256 spec map

If ive used too many maps, then let me know. It seems a bit much for the average engine...

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-wip-14.jpg


And now for question answering time!

Serul - I removed the basket and replaced it with an air vent for the turret. The basket woulve been the only alpha mapped thing on my model, and it didnt seem worth dedicating a whole map to such a small space. It woulda taken too many polys to model and woulda been tricky to make airtight.

Devilhacker - Cheers for the comments. I kinda like the cannon grooves looking that obvious, though you will hardly see them once the lighting is in there.

Konstruct - I frickin love that guys site - very inspiring. As for the camo designs? Hmm... I considered it, but given the city based operation, bluish grey works well - most tanks are simply a plain colour - few are camoflaged. Besides, it woulda been hella tough to get the UVs lined up on an all-over camo pattern :D

Keeganb - I know a tank is hardly original, given the scope of the competition, but i just really wanted to make a feasible-looking small tank. I was gonna do a more outlandish, junky entry after this one, but im shagged out - i wanna get it finished and get back to slacking! Hope the specular and bump on the above pic reduce the concreteness! Also, if you read my earlier posts, you will know that i made the tracks look like that because they have been textured so that each poly represents a section of the track. Ive got it aligned to a path and i can animate it to turn like real tank treads - no cheapo cycling textures here. It looks impressive when theyre turning. Id post a video showing it, but my webspace is getting low.

Unless theres any major issues, im gonna get the final pics put together, put it on my site, and get it out the way :thumbsup:

[Supervlieg]

Truly inspiring work Andy. You seem to get better with each and every post. I really feel like entering now.

[DevilHacker]

WOW... :eek:



IMO, it looks a lot better!
I really like the way that the driver looks!
If you do end up changing the tanks texture some more that’s fine but the driver is prefect!

Also it sound like your wrapping up this project soon... :sad:
Any idea on what’s next?

[AndyH]

Thanks for the fast replies folks.

Im glad you like the driver - i was starting to think he looked too dark, too blocky and hard to make out due to his green coat and arms.
As for whats next? After a bit of a break, ill probably get some animation practice in - i make all these purdy models, and do nothing with them. Id like to take each low poly project ive done and make a lil 10 second anim so i can present them on my showreel in a more intresting way. As for my next modeling project, i might go back to some high-poly stuff. Ive been doing nowt but games stuff for nearly a year. Need to balance my website out - the high poly gallery looks a bit lame in comparison with my low poly gallery.

[Oldbean]

Brilliant :applause:

The tank was looking a little concrete but the spec map has really helped. Great use of the bump map too.

I kinda feel obsolete... :sad:

[Ghostscape]

The spec map does wonders for your metal-ness.

Looks really good, looks finished, it's modelled in such a way that I can't see Normal maps really affecting it much (versus plain old bumps, which I'm assuming you used, based on your explanation of the colorhack).

Any chance we can get a look at the final textures?

[AndyH]

Yeah - i used bump maps - ive no idea how to make normal maps. Its something id like to look into sometime.
Ill post the maps when i post my final images soon.
Ive just gotta work on the beauty render and the screencaps / renders.

[Serul]

Looks awesome! :D

Only thing I would note is that metal is usally painted and therefore doesn't end up being that shiny like you have now. And maybe the bump is set maybe a bit too high. But I guess these comments can considered personal preference. :)

Anyway... :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[PKD]

awesome work, getting better & better. Just one minor critics, the shell of the tank is a bit too shiny for something military.

[AndyH]

Good point about the shiny hull - ill drop the specular a bit.

[Konstruct]

freaking cool, def. metal sluq esque to a slight dergree, but with a well developed sense of realism.

i think eveything looks really well done, except for the pilot-

despite what everyone else has been saying i think you should give him a lil more lovin.
it might be just the lighting in the last shots of him, but with the bump map and the specular, he gets kinda muddy.

before you added thses effects there was a defenite contrast between the driver and vehicle that looked really good, but as you have it now, they kind of become one and the same,- maybe try some diff color schemes for the pilot- maybe something more warm? i dunno.

also i HIGHLY recomend using the pilot as your fist normal map exercise. not that im a big expert on the topic:D but you figure he`s really simple in the low poly, and he would be great for a crash course in learning the technology. (from what im reading it really isnt that complex).

keep goin!

[KolbyJukes]

Yeah, I think the spec is a bit much...too shiny. Killer work Andy.

[MatsM]

My god, that is so good.

Im really a fan of your work, it's really inspirational.

I like the cartoon scale of it. With the ultra real texturing it looks really cool :)

Is that really under the limit? wow

This is one of my favourites so far

[AndyH]

And im done!
Here are the final images ill be submitting:

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/CGTALK/Tank-Concepts.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/Images/Gallery-Personal/Tank-Orthographics.gif

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/Images/Gallery-Personal/Tank-Views.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/Images/Gallery-Personal/Tank-Textures.jpg

The concept image is a little crappy, but im not putting it on my site. Its only to fulfil the posting rules for submissions.
All i gotta do now is get the beauty render done. A lunchbreak or 2 should see to that. Once its finished, i can put me feet up and wait for the submission thread to open up! If i can make space on my web account, ill try and do a lil animation illustrating the moving tracks.
The whole thing is 4045 triangles. Im well under budget, and i woulda liked to add more detail to the tracks and the pilot, but ehh - im too idle to go back and fix em...

Ill post the beauty render as soon as i get it done. Im tempted to show the cannon firing, but i also want to show the speed of it. A nice dynamic shot with motion blur on the ground and tracks, with loads of dust being kicked up should look better than cheesy shots of all the guns being fired simoultaneously.

[Konstruct]

gotta say this is one sexy model, ESPECIALLY the texture, how much of that is hand painted? it looks like a lot of the the dents and scratches are from scratch. :drool: - everything looks awesome, i cant belive your already done... wish i had that much free time :P

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[vurkacoglu]

sorry my english. Very well, i think the winner is here. I wish i could make textures good as yours.

[PKD]

Wow, truly awesome work, especially on the texture. As Konstruct has asked, its is all hand painted, if so, its trully awesome. I would love to get some pointers from you when I started my texture work (soemwhere around next week).

[Por@szek]

I see that You finished. Hat from the head. Like always A!W!E!S!O!M!E! You rock man!!

Modelling good like always, texture-> no comment :applause: . I look on that contest and here is a few models very awesome, I'm very interested how it will be look on the dead line. Whatever You are Masta :thumbsup:

[RenierBanninga]

Yeah this little bugger turned out sweet. You should try and make some versions that stood in different climate types. like muddy rain or snow :)

Its a perfect metalslug army tank.

[AndyH]

And the beauty render!
http://www.btinternet.com/~chunglist2/Images/Gallery-Personal/Tank-Beauty-render.jpg

I know, i know - its in the desert when i said it would patrol cities. I just couldnt be arsed modeling an environment! Plus, this image gives it a good post apocalyptic feel - especially the sky. The dust being kicked up was done in max, with a lil bit of photoshopping to add the specks of dirt at the front of the treads. Then a fair bit of photoshop trickery was applied to change the levels and add a soft look to it. Theres also a slight vibration blur effect on the areas like the machine gun. Note the motion blur on the tracks - theyre animated! its gonna be pretty easy to make a lil animation of it now - all i gotta do is find a few hours to do it and make some more webspace.
As for the texturing questions, it is a mixture of hand drawn and photoref. A metal door texture was carefully deformed and skewed to fit the UVs to give the metal panels their worn look. Once this base layer was applied, i added a few faint layers of photoreffed rust and decay, painted the details of the tank, then finished it off with some hand drawn scratches around the worn areas.
Good idea about the different terrain variations, lando - i dbout Ill really want to do it though. I just wanna get it out the way cos im bored now :scream:

Anyway, thats me done for this comp - i bid you adieu, and good luck!

[DevilHacker]

Nice job... :thumbsup:

So i gess since your done, than there will be no city render...

[the rookie]

Damn Andy man, this is really nice, I love the texture work, I'm amazed at the outcome of the face the solider

[PKD]

Very nice Render, excellence work of making a 4000+ tri model look so "CG", only critic would be that I felt the ground is a bit too flat, a bit of contour would be nice. I would also added a far city as sillulatte(spelling?) in the background. Comon, Andy, there a full month worth of time, I would have play around with different compositions and setting given the time.

[XP-58]

Wow! That's just damn coooll!!! :thumbsup:

The tank is cute yet cool and the textures are just great!

[funkyrayuk]

excellent, this is definately my fave, great texturing, great modelling, just great! i think we may have a winner here

[Follin]

Now thats beautiful right there.
your an inspiration

[xenoid]

totally cool Andy... have always been fascinated by ur works... this competition is realli DAM competitive!!:thumbsup:

Juz a qn to help a beginner... how did u bake radiosity into ur textures? :bounce:

[hanzo]

dude this so reminds me of metal slug, your beauty render is excellent :scream: dof in just the right places and the tanky actually looks like it's mov'in, rockin man!

:deal: this is like highest quality work, I can't wait to see what you'll come up with next challenge..

[AndyH]

Cheers folks - im looking forward to the next challenge - ready to get stuck into some luvverly characters again! Im going to new york for a week tomorrow, so wait up for me, should i win! :rolleyes:

Xenoid - You use the 'render to texture' tool in the rendering menu and mess with the options.

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