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View Full Version : Messiah, Modo and Ngons?


Sbowling
09-21-2004, 12:14 PM
Hi all,

I've been thinking about buying messiah studio for a while, and just purchased Modo (awesome!) and I was wondering if Messiah Studio will support Ngons from modo or if there are any talks about supporting Ngons? I was just thinking that thses two programs would make an awesom combo together.

JoeCosman
09-21-2004, 05:38 PM
if you mean N-gons on a polygonal mesh, yes, messiah supports them.

if you are talking about n-gons in a subdivision mesh, then no. Messiah prefers quads and tris for Sub-Ds

-JoeC

paragonent
09-22-2004, 11:37 AM
Joe is right. anyway...a nice and clean subD mesh looks better with quads and tris(some say only quads works the best way)on the other hand...i didn't hear many LW users over the ears complaining about Ngons. it's ok to have that but not a must have.
bye

Sil3
09-22-2004, 03:15 PM
i didn't hear many LW users over the ears complaining about Ngons. Sorry to say this, but u must be deaf then ;)

Once u get used to them, u wont work without them anymore.

Qslugs
09-22-2004, 03:28 PM
I agree about the ngon's. After all its not about what the mesh looks like but how it deforms and how quickly one can build it. I've personally been complaining since about 1998 for ngon support in LW's subpatch mode. That and edge support as well.

Also, there are many other people that have expressed their complaints as well throughout the years.

There have been many, many times where I have tried to add detail to a mesh only to spend hours trying to logisticaly reroute masses of poly edges so that the model flows more smoothly. Not fun. Huge waste of time.

paragonent
09-23-2004, 08:22 AM
u're right guys but what i'm trying to say is that over the years, LW artists done a great job with quads and tris and i don't think that let's say...proton and policarpo and so on, modeled in LW being angry because they don't have ngons...it's not good to work in stress, it's not good for the health:)) just kiddin'

byebye

everyone has it's own modeling workflow, i agree.

crossbones
09-28-2004, 01:42 AM
I'd like to chim in. I've used Max for years and its Poly edit mode provided me with Ngon support. It never turned out right for some reason, I mean you could always see seams and such. When I worked with Lightwave, after Chris Reid and Taron showed me their approach, I saw a whole new aspect of modeling from a box with quad topology only. I have never had trouble figuring out a solution that simplifies, readies for animation and efficent when modeling inorganics.

Ngons do more damage then they do good, in my opinion. I am not sure if XSI does it better but I know modo doesn't do it good enough to convince me otherwise.

dfaris
09-28-2004, 03:28 AM
C4D's ngons are pretty good.

SergO
09-28-2004, 09:46 PM
As part of the wip modelling process N-gons are a fantastic thing to have, as are Tris... they can good for final stuff too. It's all about what you can get away with.. Some software handle these worse or better... LW for example makes the most artefact free tris (if you excuse the modeller OpenGL artefact)... Modo IIRC follows the Catmull algorithm.

Since I started working with them (Modo beta) I cant imagine going back!
When I'm modeling my thing and I'm chopping it up in countless different ways to find the best flow I dont want freegin holes in my mesh while I'm doin it! I dont want my renders to have holes either...

5 point Sub-D polys can be very usefull for final quality too... If you take a 5 point Sub-D poly and freeze it, it will create a layout that looks exactly like a quad terminating an edge flow (a pole)... it makes no more of an artefact than a regula manually made pole, all its doing is mimicking what would happen if you manually divided the 5 point poly into 3 quads, saving you the time and unecessary edges in the mesh...

With more than 5 points per side then you get serious problems coz the frozen mesh layout will be star like... But even big N-Gons are very, very, usefull, particularly for mechanical modelling where the massive star like pole isnt visivble because it usually sits on a flat surface... its great both as filler during modelling AND for final quality. Invaluable.

Just use them sensibly.

And Messiah needs them... its not just N-Gons, edge creasing is probably much more important.

Modo's Great!!

SergO

paragonent
09-29-2004, 08:07 AM
man...you're repeating yourself:)))

SergO
09-29-2004, 09:42 AM
man...you're repeating yourself:)))hehe, yeah... well, some people really need the point hammered in... ;)

If people dont like N-Gons, ok, fine, whatever... but dont freegin come in here and hijack a feature request post!! Jeezzz... whats it to yall anyway, if u dont wanna use N-Gons dont use them! But let the ones who do use them ask for it, and get it if they can.

Am I repeating myself again? :D

Cheers

Serg

Sil3
09-29-2004, 11:24 AM
Yes u are, but nevermind that, somepeople still dont realise it ;)


Im modeling some stuff now that has a couple of 5 point polys, it looks better with them than trying to come up with a polymesh full of quads, where the excess of polys deforms my mesh (after Subd) in a way i dont want, with the Ngons it looks like i want and doesnt give me any artifacts during animation either :)

Another thing i like Ngons, im not a Taron , i cant model with all quads in less than an hour, itīs not my workflow, i add edges where i want and later on during the modeling phase iīll come up with the proper polygon flow.

Sbowling
09-29-2004, 12:31 PM
Joe is right. anyway...a nice and clean subD mesh looks better with quads and tris(some say only quads works the best way)on the other hand...i didn't hear many LW users over the ears complaining about Ngons. it's ok to have that but not a must have.
bye
Well, since I started this thread, I should probably chime in. First, after using Modo with it's Ngon Subd modeling, I have to say Ngons are invaluable while modeling (that and edges). The main reason a lot of people who use LW aren't complaining about the lack of them is probably because they have never used them. Once you use them you will sorely miss them when using a different program. While working It would be nice to have support for at least 5point polygons in subd surfaces for messiah, Modo makes it very easy to clean up a mesh and convert Ngons into quads, so it's not really an issue. I'm hoping to be able to to afford to purchase Messiah studio this paycheck or next. I loved the workflow for 1.3 (?), but wans't very fond of jumping between messaih for animating and LW for rendering. Messiahg Studio look like just the thing now that I'm sort of moving away from LW.

BTW, anyone have any more info on the texturing system in Messiah studio? I watched the movies on the website, but I want more info on what's available and what's possible.

paragonent
09-29-2004, 12:50 PM
OK guys...i'm very sorry if i wasn't too explicit and if i offended somebody...my mistake. u're right...who want n-gons should have n-gons.

all i want to say is for me, n-gons are not something to die for.

sorry again and good luck to you all!!!

crossbones
09-29-2004, 04:52 PM
I can only speak for myself, no one in this form is right or wrong. Learning with taron there is a bias, your never going to find a need for alot of tools including Ngons. I could see where it would be handy, but just as easily one could find the solution using soley quads. Its experience in the end. Regardless modo is a great tool. I've not used LWModeler since i got it.

There are lots of reasons messiah does not support Ngons. Metanurbs are a very fast solution for subdivision surfaces. Messiah is always pushing the base mesh and stippling between vertcies to create the "appearnce" of a subdivided mesh. When displacement is used with Ngons a great deal of problems for tessalation arrives. The SDS solutionof Ngons is unpredictable. Metanurbs are extremely fast when going to tessalate, the subdivision is hands down the fastest I've seen (in comparision to Max and LW).

Fori said he could write one a new solution.The results might very between the look of model in the modeling package to the look of it in messiah.

SergO
09-29-2004, 06:19 PM
Well, how bout a setting in the "Metanurbs" tab?
Then anyone can take their pick... LW style, or a standard like Catmull SDS's... then everybody's happy, right? ;)

cheers

Serg

Gwot
09-30-2004, 01:22 PM
Ngons rock for WIPs.

I wish modo could do this:

http://www.gwot.net/pub/silo_split_tool.gif

Probably my favourite tool in Silo and XSI, simply because it literally lets me redirect and recreate entire edge flows during my initial sculpting phase. I haven't used modo long enough yet to pass judgement - I like what is there, but I haven't found anything equal to the feature I listed above. Cutting from edge to edge or vert is fine but it's a lot easier to work with when you can also cut them right into a polygon surface without worrying about how many sides you are generating.

sebek27
09-30-2004, 08:26 PM
you can also do this in Cinema 4d v9 :thumbsup:

dfaris
09-30-2004, 08:31 PM
you can also do this in Cinema 4d v9 :thumbsup:

Not only that but you can cut holes into the object.

Nando
10-22-2004, 06:17 AM
You know I read this thread when first posted, and sorta shruged becuase I wasnt sure who? what? where? for ngons. ( having not modeled for 5 years becuase work wouldnt let me)

My old modeling style was point by point so I would build a mesh made of quads or Tri's.

Well since then Ive been trying to get aquainted with MODO, and started Box modeling instead. doodles here, and there nothing great, just getting comfortable.
So, I got comfortable slicing edges, and splitting poly's.
I did find it faster for quick modeling as folks have mentioned...
Now.. I wanted to test out the Mesh with some materials for fun, and to show some friends.
Having MS, I figured it would be a good time to test the renderer and get familiar with it, but I ran into trouble with the Ngons I had made. ;)
Yes, I know... I can Quad/Triple them, but it would be nice for the Ngon support for those days, when you want to test Materials, and the look of the Mesh.

So heres my Vote for Ngons
:thumbsup:

chikega
10-25-2004, 11:44 AM
Here's my vote for ngon support in SubD/MetaNurb mode! :)

Sil3
10-25-2004, 12:19 PM
To be honest i dont think thereīs the need to "vote" for this, itīs a commom sense nowadays that programs/renders have to support this, sorry if this sounds harsh but itīs the truth.

crossbones
10-27-2004, 04:26 PM
Can anyone show me what happens when you animate with Ngons?

ThirdEye
11-03-2004, 12:12 AM
It depends on the position of the npoly in your mesh structure and it depends on the way the program decides to subdivide it: basically npolys are just a bunch of tris and quads but the position/orientation of their edges is hidden and usually cannot be changed/flipped. Usually the program does a good job at guessing the best way of subdividing the npoly, so if you're not too unlucky the deformation is good anyway.

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