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FunBucket
09-18-2004, 11:45 PM
Just curious if anyone out there has used both of these, and what they would say are the advantages of Modo over Silo? Or maybe Silo over Modo? I remember someone mentioning that Modo has something similar to the Topology Brush that version 1.3 of Silo will have. Anyone stumbled upon that yet?

Everyone seems to love Modo so far, but I still wonder if the extra $600 over Silo is worth it or not. C4D R9 has some pretty cool modeling tools, too. So many choices! So little money!

pensart
09-19-2004, 12:10 AM
Yes its worth the extra bucks.
Dunno about a topology brush just have my copy, and still so mutch to learn.
I have played extensively with Xsi, maya, Silo and C4D for a full month. (only modeling)
Nothing comes close to the workflow of modo.

Lightwave- Best workflow but lack of tools (No edges...)
Xsi- Nice featsures but workflow is a minus (still the best exept for modo)
but it doesnt even come close to modo.
Silo- Nice but not my taste of workflow and still lacks a lot of tools
C4D- Nico tools, love them and hate them.
Modo- All the way!!!
Many tools and best workflow ever.
This is a must have for anyone who is doing 3d modeling no matter wich software they use to do the rest.

kursad_pileksuz
09-19-2004, 12:20 AM
i looked at silo, i think it is a great software . i found that it is quite unique modeler, and nice interface, like wings3d, which i love alot. but in terms of more complicated stuff like interface and scripting, macros and deformations i do not think that it is close to modo in that sense. .silo has a fast interface and small compared to maya, which is a plus. and i think especially silo`s edge modelling tools are robust,and works accurate

technically speaking , as far as pure modelling tools go, i think silo has pretty much everything, same as modo. but since every tools out there have all the necessary tools nowadays. main point is interface and customization in my opinion.

for example maya is really strong tool if you know mel, but many artist do not want to deal with that kind of stuff, well modo is alot more like what artist would like.

Ric535
09-19-2004, 12:44 AM
well silo is moving very very fast, i think this question should be asked again in 6 months time :)

rendermania
09-19-2004, 02:22 AM
Just curious if anyone out there has used both of these, and what they would say are the advantages of Modo over Silo? Or maybe Silo over Modo? I remember someone mentioning that Modo has something similar to the Topology Brush that version 1.3 of Silo will have. Anyone stumbled upon that yet?

Everyone seems to love Modo so far, but I still wonder if the extra $600 over Silo is worth it or not. C4D R9 has some pretty cool modeling tools, too. So many choices! So little money!I'm curious about Modo as well, but no demo yet, so its difficult to say anything. With regards to Cinema 9, it behaves a lot like Maya or Silo, depending on what mode you're in. For poly editing, its the same tools as Maya - N-sided polys, edge, vertex and poly modes, weld, melt, collapse, fill hole etc. The knife tool is more developed, with five different cutting modes, one of which lets you cut an arbitrary shaped hole into a single poly without triangulating it. The brush sculpting tool is excellent as well, with lots of different modes like smear, smooth, normal, pull, repel, etc. All selection modes are there (including convert, ring and loop selection). There's also a nice 'autoselect' and 'tweak mode' where Cinema doesn't distinguish between edges, vertices or polys, and you can pick whatever is under the mouse and move it right away. One of the nicest additions is the modeling axis, which lets you pick the reference point around which to rotate/translate/scale selected faces and so on, so you can model using surface normal, world, object, local and other coordinate systems.

The subd side is more interesting, because you can either work on the polycage on which the subd surface is based, or in isoline mode, selecting the points, isolines and surfaces on the subd surface directly. What I find quite interesting is that extrudes, bevels etc behave a like Silo's when working in isoline mode, whereas they behave more like a regular poly modeler when working on the polycage. There's also some new OpenGL modes that look a lot like the ones in Silo.

There is another interesting modeling feature in R9, but its not much good if you are only considering it as a modeler for another 3D package. The Advanced Render module can use Zbrush normal maps for micropoly displacement, so you can export a detailed million poly character model from Zbrush as a low-poly basemesh to Cinema that has only a few thousand polys, with the rest of the model information saved as a normal map. You can then rig and animate the low model in Cinema, with everything staying interactive, and the renderer will recreate the Zbrush level detail (with choice over the subdivision level) at rendertime from the Zbrush normal map. But that feature is useful only if you use Cinema to render/animate as well, not if you intend to use the model in another package.

This is how much I've figured out from the R9 demo. For Modo, I can't say much without getting my hands on a working demo version, but it seems to have very powerful scripting/macros if you're into that sort of workflow. Maybe its best to wait for the demo to see which suits you better.

Dion Burgoyne
09-19-2004, 02:41 AM
One thing that is very important to the workflow of modo is how easily it grows into any environment, not just with the UI or this tool or that... But when someone needs something specific with modo, they can add it. Internally we have a perl interface that gives you control over nearly everything in modo. Personally, I'm not a programmer, but with 2 books on perl and some patience I was able to create a .MDL importer for game models in 2 days... It's pretty basic but my latest version will do unlimited numbers of nodes and sometime soon we're going to release it with modo. And it's not some super secret special language that only a handful of programmers know... There's even a perl for dummies book that I cherish :)

This is really how everything in modo has evolved, instead of a programmer somewhere deciding "you must work like this" modo simply lays down the legos in front of you and allows you to put it together however you'd like... They simply put a few together for you in case you want to use them :)

Pazur
09-19-2004, 08:12 AM
i can second what Dion says. Not knowing a thing about perl I was able to write first script in modo in about hour where half of time took me to go through some basic perl tutorial on the net :)

The beautiful thing is that all what You do is looged as command with arguments. So all what You do with UI can be done with script. All commands with their possible arguments are listed in command history panel so it is really easy to find what You need. All commands can be asked for their arguments as well, for example You can ask modo what wireframe mode is currently applied for the viewport. Communication is easy and smooth. And with the fully open SDK coming soon ... ;)

kamil_w
09-19-2004, 10:09 AM
>>The beautiful thing is that all what You do is looged as command with arguments. So all what You do with UI can be done with script. All commands with their possible arguments are listed in command history panel so it is really easy to find what You need. All commands can be asked for their arguments as well, for example You can ask modo what wireframe mode is currently applied for the viewport

It seems very similar to what Maya has. You can do exactly the same in Maya.

What`s the diffrence and (possible) advantage?

billhdz
09-19-2004, 10:09 AM
I think is't too early for this question,
since Silo is still in development and it's getting much better all the time,
and Modo just came out to the market with no demo to try.

Since, there is a demo for Silo, I can say that I am very impressed with it so far.
One of the best modelers that I have tried and the price is right. It just keeps getting better all the time.

I agree with an early post. Let's talk about this at least 6 months from now
to be fair to these fantastic tools.

digones
09-19-2004, 11:58 AM
I agree with billhdz, it's too early to make these comparisons.

I'm a lightwave user since version 6 and I love that tool, and, obviously, I was very excited about Modo's release. But with no demo or trial version to test it, will be difficult to say if worths that much.

In the other hand, people from nevercenter, has a very interesting tool... I have tested it on my Mac and believe me, it's an amazing tool, extremely fast, and you are able to customize many things. Silo is a promissing tool, and I'm talking about an affordable, stable, fast, flexible and cool application.

Well, let's wait a little longer for this! :)


cheers!

yinako
09-19-2004, 01:30 PM
Internally we have a perl interface that gives you control over nearly everything in modo. Personally, I'm not a programmer, but with 2 books on perl and some patience I was able to create a .MDL importer for game models in 2 days... I
oh I must missed about the perl interface!
Always thought perl woulf make a great scripting language for artistic software, I wish theres more info on their site or be convered in some interviews. How does the connection work are they wrappers around , how much of modo commands are scriptable with perl? what about performance issue.

rendermania
09-19-2004, 01:37 PM
>>The beautiful thing is that all what You do is looged as command with arguments. So all what You do with UI can be done with script. All commands with their possible arguments are listed in command history panel so it is really easy to find what You need. All commands can be asked for their arguments as well, for example You can ask modo what wireframe mode is currently applied for the viewport

It seems very similar to what Maya has. You can do exactly the same in Maya.

What`s the diffrence and (possible) advantage?
XSI dumps everything it does in a code window as well, and so does the 3D part of Macromedia Director even. I'm more interested in whether Modo ships with modeling tools that are radically different/better from what's available elsewhere, but I guess that'll have to wait until the demo is out.

lwbob
09-19-2004, 02:25 PM
oh I must missed about the perl interface!
Always thought perl woulf make a great scripting language for artistic software, I wish theres more info on their site or be convered in some interviews. How does the connection work are they wrappers around , how much of modo commands are scriptable with perl? what about performance issue. I just found out someone here was a beta tester. Damn. He said that you tell the perl script something is a lx command list this--

lx("viewport.3dView wireframe:$wire")

that is it, stick that into your perl script and it fires that command into Modo.

To get info from modo it is a lxq command

lxq("tool.handleStyle style:?")

Kvaalen
09-19-2004, 02:48 PM
Let's talk about this at least 6 months from now He he... by then I don't think the comparison would be fair! :)
By then it is very possible that modo will be part of nexus--a complete 3D app not just a modeler. :)

pensart
09-19-2004, 04:44 PM
Yp, i suggest u go for modo, silo is nice but it still needs alot of functions.
Its not able to do any kind of uv editing. and on top of that.
Nexus is just around the corner :P

garyc
09-19-2004, 04:59 PM
Hi, I have used both Silo and Modo and I would say go with Modo, there is a lot in there and a lot more coming. Modo is worth every penny, its a very powerful application, very intuative and easy to use, especially so if your familiar with Lightwave.

cheers gary.

kursad_pileksuz
09-19-2004, 06:33 PM
Well here is an answer for you
think about a car with 600 horsepower, some twin turbo etc in it. but does not have a wheel instead you need to use joystick and the seat is made out of nails. so this car even with 600 horse power that can go upto 400 miles would not be fun and easily controllable to drive even on highway

what modo is giving you the ride experience, this is not a political way of saying it, but it is no joke that when car manufacturers`s need to design a car they start it with the driver`s seat first, and then rest followes.
modo is trying to give you best interface possible to (which is customizable) to do traditional polygon and subd modelling. Modo does not have some crazy way of doing (lets say like in zbrush) modelling.But it has some innovations in it as well. like element fall off, or double clicking on edgeloops, splitting windows, free transform point (like in lightwave), and and ability to use fall off s with most of the tools. for example you can use airbrush fall off with edge bevel and you can paint edge bevelling over the surface. fi you think this is a crazy tool then you have it :)

markdc
09-19-2004, 09:04 PM
How does the sub-d speed compare to XSI (the fastest I've seen) or Silo?

FunBucket
09-19-2004, 10:38 PM
I think a demo would REALLY help those of us who are unsure of Modo being worth the extra $600 over Silo.

When Nexus is released, if it's somewhere around the price of Lightwave and includes modeling/animation/rendering/simulations... I'll be all over that. It's just hard to know how it's all going to fit together price wise though. I can't imagine modeling would account for HALF the price of Nexus... since Nexus will have so much more.

Anyways, it definitely sounds like Modo is a sweet modeler. I just hope a demo's out soon. I think I'll just continue saving my money and wait and see how it all pans out. :)

billhdz
09-19-2004, 10:48 PM
Hi, I have used both Silo and Modo and I would say go with Modo, there is a lot in there and a lot more coming. Modo is worth every penny, its a very powerful application, very intuative and easy to use, especially so if your familiar with Lightwave.

I appreciate the comments. Thanks for sharing.

I still need to try it to believe it. When the demo is available, I will be able to judge.
We all experience software in a different way. What's best for Paul is not best for peter.
Some people like Maya and others swear by Lightwave.
TRYING is the best way to judge what is best for you.

I'll sit tight and wait for the demo.

JDex
09-19-2004, 10:55 PM
You may be waiting a while.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=1584860&postcount=18

FunBucket
09-19-2004, 10:59 PM
JDex: Yeah, I've read all that stuff regarding the demo. It really suuuucks. It's not like I have the money to get Modo now even if I wanted to (which I think I do!) It's a shame I can't try it out now though. Maybe once I get the money there'll be a demo available... or maybe I'll just go for it. Doesn't seem like anyone is regretting doing the same.:)

billhdz
09-19-2004, 11:02 PM
Thanks for the info JDex. Good to know.

Now I know that I will just have to wait for a demo in the future.

This is why is good to have other 3D software. No rushing involved.
At least in my case.

Good for the folks that beta tested. If they like..., they buy...., because they tried.

When I get to try the demo, then I can decide if I want to buy.

:)

doe
09-20-2004, 10:58 AM
two words:

mouse customization

Mechis
09-20-2004, 03:49 PM
You can customize almost everything in SILO-- mouse buttons, menu configuration (you can even make your own buttons), keyboard shortcuts, display colors, etc.

doe
09-20-2004, 04:24 PM
You can customize almost everything in SILO-- mouse buttons, menu configuration (you can even make your own buttons), keyboard shortcuts, display colors, etc.
thats what i am talkin' bout.

My Fault
09-20-2004, 05:23 PM
Is there support for mouses with more then 3 buttons? I don't even own mice with less then 5 and would love to see better support for that.

kursad_pileksuz
09-20-2004, 06:35 PM
well that is not the same customization modo offers. it is nice that silo is offering some form of customization, bur naturally as it was reflected in the price, modo offers more com plicated customization than silo does. But again, that is why one is cheaper than other.
i think in a way comparing modo to silo is comparing lightwave to wings3d. wings3d is an awesometool for free and can offer some more robust tools than lightwave. but that does not make it necessarily better than lightwave in terms of overall package. but if you have lightwave you may consider using wings3d as a compliment to lightwave rather than competing them .

ambient-whisper
09-20-2004, 09:19 PM
I'm more interested in whether Modo ships with modeling tools that are
radically different/better from what's available elsewhere, but I guess that'll have
to wait until the demo is out.theyre not any different than most applications. theres nice tools in modo for sure,
but mostly stuff to do with interface, and ways of editing geometry.
but as far as TOOLS go. its missing a lot. atleast stuff that i would expect to make
a modeller revolutionary... or evolutionary. to me it has a lot of the really old
stuff from LW that hasnt been taken too far besides having added ngons and a few
other things.

some of these things could be in modo in one form or another but i hope that im correct with most my investigations so far. if im wrong. please say so and give examples. so we could learn from this :)

simple tools

no slide,
no proper edgering split ( like in mirai/ cinema/ wings/ max, houdini, maya/
xsi....etc ). the only split there is doesnt currently support non uniform splits.
so it has to be a perfect ring to split. nothing fancy. for that you have to use
the edge slice tool. which could be a little better imo. like automatically detect
where parallel edges are and be able to use an option to split a perfect ring. or
being able to slide your edge cuts dynamically while using that node. or giving you
a preview of what you will get with the next split.. without having to ever click on
an edge where you want to split.....while snapping to the nearest vert/edge that you
can connect to.
loop slice doesnt cut it. and should be replaced with another tool that is closer to
what other apps have.. with the option to close/complete loops ( if its able to ).
along with the options that it already has. because its not bad.. but its far from
what we need. lets just say we select 2 parallel vertical edges, and an edge that
is connected to the second but its horizontal.. then we press connect and we want a
path through those edges. not possible with the current tools.
http://www.claus-figuren.de/3d/rt/etdoc/sub01.jpg

modifier keys
another thing that is lacking in modo at the moment is the lack of modifier keys.
this way i could map the move/tweak tool to a key like just "ctrl" or mouse button
and i could automatically tweak things on the fly. instead of having to bring up the
element move tool, and tweak from there. since we spend about 99% of our time moving
points, this should be the most accessible option, and should work with comfort in
mind.
also being able to make ANY key a modifier, could allow me to use tools without ever having to drop them. dropping would be done by letting go of a key. so if i bevel. i would hold B while dragging my mouse to the side, and when i let go it would be applied and i could move onto my next tool

Better selection mechanism
one thing i would like to see for tweak/move is to be able to have modo
automatically select elements that are closest to the cursor. this way i dont have
to be always 100% dead on to select smething. and makes hard to get to verticies
easier to reach ( lets say that im editing the profile of the character, the
application will grab the closest vert/edge/face to the cursor and i will be able to
manipulate from there. right now the process of selecting is much too slow to make
moving points efficient/comfortable. this is a MUST. if people like to select things
exactly, it wouldnt interfere with their way of working, but at their convenience if
they click a bit off a vert they meant to, they wont get the action center moving
with nothing else happening. instead they will see their vert moving how they originally
intended.

PRE Highlighting
pre-highlight selections is a must. especially with tweak. this way if the
application selects the nearest point to the cursor, you will know exactly what you
will grab without having to do any trial and error. without this, we spend time
making mistakes and selecting not what we think we will ( ever tried element move
and you selected poly instead of vert like you thought you would? happens more
often than you think.)

speed
speaking about speed.. even on a quadro fx 3000, the app moves much faster than it
does on my geforce 5600, but comparing to silo.. .. modo runs slower on the quadro
than silo on my geforce. so thats saying a lot. i think it could be optimized a
crapload. mainly the transformation tools, they feel very sluggish. because on silo
you have almost no lag once so ever. while even editing a point on a box feels
slower. tumbling in modo is fine and speedy. but transformation is where the problem
lies.

stuff
you cant work one tool after another properly in modo. for example. grab one edge
and do a loop slice now right after we use that we go to the edge slice tool. the
problem with this is.. is that if you have a selection made you will only be able to
modify on the selection itself. so you have to drop selection every time you want to
work on tools like edge slice. even then,you will have edge slice not behaving
properly at times, because sometimes it will decide that it doesnt want to slide on
some edges that your making cuts to.

geometry management
i was also expecting better geometry management tools within modo. and better morph
management tools. right now you can make 100000 morphs and selection sets and
whatnot but you cant organize them in ways you want to. like placing specific morphs
into directories ( like a directory for Eye morphs ). i still think mirai has the
cleanest setup for this area. where you can control
sensitivity/visibility/shading/grouping/object management as a whole/ and selection
sets.... of each object within one simple interface that looks like the "mesh list"
and or "info & statistics". but it just works better in mirai. i would love it if it
was just an opinion. but when comparing what i can do in both apps within just those
editors im comparing. theres not much comparrison.

Symmetry
multiple symmetry tools like in zbrush. what if i made changes ( moved a few verts
)to one side of the model and i want to make the other side symmetrical. i press a
key and it should copy the data to the other side automatically. also. it should
work in a way that it can average both sides.. but it will only keep what i have
selected as it is.. and copy that stuff to the other side of the model ( my
selection will remain untouched.

Context/smart UI
for a modeller that claims its for everyone, what about people that like context
sensitive menus. so we see only tools that are available to us for the modes that we
are in. lets say i selected a few edges i want to slice. i could right click on
scene or something, and it would automatically show only my edge based tools, or any
tools that will work from my selection. or what if i wanted to pour options into
those menus, so if i left click i just get a straight tool usage ( like slicing
edges through the middle for example and drop tool right after.), if i middle click
something else would be executed ( like slicing through middle but with slide
enabled right after ). etc. these types of options would be useful for pie menus
too. im sure i will get some comment to investigate forms, but after playing with
them for a while, i see that it will be overly complex to build these things i
mentioned. so id rather have some more developed tools from the developer on this
subject to make the process of building complex UIs a little easier.

Morphs
back to morphs. im surprised that after 4 years of absolutely no development on my
copy of mirai that no other developer has even come close to having morphs as
functional to the set that is found in it ( or dare i say, go beyond it )
no rotational morphs
no way to organize morphs.
its way too easy to destroy morphs that you are working on. after making edits to a
morph and leaving it for another it should ask you if you would like to apply
changes to so and so morph. i know its slower to do so, but since it takes a long
time to build morphs, having a safety option for this particular area is very
important.
being able to use multiple morphs with different amounts from one node. and not
apply them one by one and having to drop each morph node we add in between.. its
very important to see how all morphs play together.
one workflow could be that you have one morph selected. and are working on it. then
you load up a morph node to see how other morphs apply themselves to it. you could
mix a few morphs and if you dont like what you see, press cancel and youll be thrown
right back to what you were doing ( editing the morph )
not being able to morph one object to another. ( im guessing the background morph
tool does this? but its really not the simplest easiest tools to figure out right
off the bat, so ill pretend its not there. ) i know having all morphs embedded is
nice, but when your working with a number of artists and theyre sending you morphs,
you want to attach them to your working model, somehow.

Falloff showing on mesh/ from selection+ morphs continued
having a falloff show on the viewport around the selection is another must. with all
the "interactive" modes that we have. it still doesnt show us a clear idea of what
we will get exactly or which EXACT verts we will translate from our current
selection. this also plays a strong part for morphing. i want to make a selection
and grow the falloff until i reach a specific vertex, and only then apply a morph to
the selection ( with the falloff, obviousely ). this way i dont need to carefully
and "interactively" place the gizmo and keep doing trial and error in order to get
what i want. the interactive tools are nice. but for proper/complex facial animation
most of the time it gets in the way more than it doesnt. this is also killer with
tweaking. because its more accurate than the radius we have at the moment. this
should be adjustable by the scroller as well, or something like alt+ drag, so we
could get a more precise falloff.

transparency
very useful when matching up models. ( say you got a scan.
and a final topology for models that you need to match up with. ;)
using background wireframe and seeing your current objects
wireframe makes too much of a mess, so transparency makes it much cleaner to do.
or even working on stuff like teeth. make model transparent, and unselectable,
and work on teeth

constraints
doesnt work on everything. for example. i make a few verts ontop of my model,
but when connect them by faces and or extend edges,... these edges dont
travel ontop of the model. ( theyre no longer constrained.).

Shared Hotkeys

Smart keys that do different things based on selections. this way i could pack a few different functions to one key depending what i select. like for example. i could have a creation key that does one hit wonder tools ( and automatically drops ). like if i select an edgeloop that surrounds a hole, it will fill it. if i select 2 verts and i press key, itll connect em. if i select a ring of edges and press space itll split em, if i select a perfect loop that key could bevel by 50% etc etc. all in one key. and it will do different things based on what i select. maybe this could be done by scripting. not sure. but im no script type guy, so ill leave this for someone else. but this is a huge workflow booster because your time spent on hotkey searching is cut by a huge lot.

[EDIT]

Edge Distance bevel ( for a lack of a better word )

this bevel would only bevel edges until it meets the next set of edges and will stop there. this limit would be there so we could not destroy meshes so easily. check wings 3d for this feature. its what makes bevel worth using, because your not worried about ever destroying your geometry.

Pre Highlighting Bonus features- B.I.G

Being able to execute tools on pre highlighted element. this would let you do tweaks on the fly and execute commands without ever selecting single elements.

Camera perspective ( real world and not percentage )

when a director comes by your shoulder and asks to see how your model will look with the same lens as the output camera, you should be able to easily use the same settings as your camera is using ( i get asked this one often ) currently the percentage is a huge minus for film usage.


theres more but these are probably the most lacking tools/
functions i can think of at the moment.

i see a lot of potential in this app, since at its core its very customizable,
but it also needs refinement to be something really special.
and definitely some core tools that most modellers use in their
modelling workflows today.
hopefully we will see these really soon in modo.
because i would like to use it for some large scale models.

FunBucket
09-20-2004, 09:49 PM
Thanks for the review, ambient-whisper! Makes me feel better about not buying yet, lol. Again, I guess I'll be waiting for a demo... or maybe v1.5-2.0 when they work on some of this stuff a bit. It definitely sounds like it has a lot of potential, but it's strange that they're lacking in certain tools that are available everywhere else. :)

Renderman_XSI
09-20-2004, 10:08 PM
Its nice to get to some thoughts about Modo from a Mirai user. I was thinking about buying Modo, but from what AW, post i'll hold back until Luxology makes most of those changes,which are mirai centric. Most of the modeling related related issue AW mention, i use alot in Mirai and is a must have, if i was to buy.

I just hope is open minided enough to understand the needs of Mirai users, and adopt and implement.

rebo
09-20-2004, 10:11 PM
Yes the review is appreciated AW, no pre highlighting, no nearest vertex/edge selection, no bounded tools. Well i wont be investing in modo i think and i dont really see them learning the lessons of mirai / wings.

I really dont see the evolution in this product.

ambient-whisper
09-20-2004, 10:13 PM
i wasnt saying this was mirai specific at all :) just things i found in other modellers that are nice features. mirai just happened to have a few of those.

ThomasMahler
09-20-2004, 10:15 PM
Awesome roundup, Martin!

Hope Luxology now irons out all the things you said - The interface looks very cool, now it's all about tools and workflow...

SheepFactory
09-20-2004, 10:17 PM
I really dont see the evolution in this product.

I gotta disagree there.

care to remember Silo 1.0? , XSI 1.0 , Maya 1.0? they were all failures if we think like you do now. Its more important to put the foundation you can build on right than putting the tools in. Now that that step is out of the way i am %110 sure luxology will listen to their customers requests and respond accordingly. That might also explain the lack of demo in this case.

AmbiDextrose
09-20-2004, 10:23 PM
I gotta disagree there.

care to remember Silo 1.0? , XSI 1.0 , Maya 1.0? they were all failures if we think like you do now. Its more important to put the foundation you can build on right than putting the tools in. Now that that step is out of the way i am %110 sure luxology will listen to their customers requests and respond accordingly. That might also explain the lack of demo in this case. That's true. However, why would I want to get in on the ground floor of an app that's obviously missing important tools while there are other choices out there? Unless Luxology offers early adopters something for it, say, a free upgrade whatever that version might be.

SheepFactory
09-20-2004, 10:26 PM
well they are offering a pricecut to early buyers , and a lw users discount. pretty cool stuff if you ask me and a good time to get on board.

But i agree with you , i am very very interested in knowing the upgrade scheme also.

Renderman_XSI
09-20-2004, 10:38 PM
That's true. However, why would I want to get in on the ground floor of an app that's obviously missing important tools while there are other choices out there? Unless Luxology offers early adopters something for it, say, a free upgrade whatever that version might be.
Very true, hell i would buy it right now, if i know i can get a free upgrade to the next version. Even knowing that some of those Mirai/Wings/Nendo features are missing. Also if i knew they were going to add those feature in the next version..but maybe thats asking for too much..or is it?



But Luxology needs to show some love for Mirai! If they listen to there customers, as well as Silo does, as far as implementing features..then they should do in the industry. :D

tjnyc
09-20-2004, 10:48 PM
i wasnt saying this was mirai specific at all :) just things i found in other modellers that are nice features. mirai just happened to have a few of those.
You should check out C4D R9, it has most of what you mentioned Modo should have. It also has a HUD feature that you can add tools and stuff too, almost like the Tool Pipe in Modo.

Cheers,

kursad_pileksuz
09-20-2004, 11:11 PM
i think some of us are missing some part of the big picture. it seems like you think that 90% of the tools that are needed for modelling is missing in modo. everything is there except maybe max 3 important, and 5-10 essential tools. compared to what modo is and can be it is not that bad, it is a low number. and people already made models with what is available in modo, that proves the point that modo offers most of the important stuff. i am a lightwave and maya user, i love both tools, and i know both tools. i personally can tell you that modo has everything both tools are offering in terms of modelling and putting more on top of it. yes a slide tool is really really important, but fully attachable and configurable falloff tools are quite important too. now maya does not have does, is it a bad tool? not really depends on what you need. i think it is too early too evaluate what really sux in modo and what not, and and i am sure luxology would welcome all kinds of critics. i personally would like to see people talk about modo after they model some stuff in it, then they would have full experience with it.
for example lightwave does not even have edges or moving scaling along normals at all (i have not used 8) . and it is one of the best modelling software out there

FunBucket
09-20-2004, 11:21 PM
i personally would like to see people talk about modo after they model some stuff in it, then they would have full experience with it.
We could do that if there was a demo. :)

ambient-whisper
09-20-2004, 11:49 PM
i agree that lots of tools arent needed. but a few really well thought out ones :).

hell clay only has a few tools in it. ( much less than modo ) but since they work so nice, and have so many considerations to them. the package flows. because everything is meant to work together, and on the fly without ever needing to drop tools and stuff.. but yeah. the workflow stuff i mentioned i really hope gets implemented, as well as a few tools that could really help

Dion Burgoyne
09-20-2004, 11:51 PM
Anyone that has worked with us throughout the beta process will tell you that we listen and take to heart everything that is said about modo, modo's workflow, modo's toolset, and every suggestion made to Luxology about modo is looked at studied and if it makes sense, and if it's possible in the time alotted, implemented.

Just ask anyone that wanted viewport perspective control :)

There is no reason for us to stop this behavior, no reason for the company to get between the artists and the people making the brush. Modo 1.0 can make any shape, model, object, cleaner and faster then just about anything out there...

So for the topic.. Bring it on :) We want to hear everything you have to say about modo and luxology... That's the only way we know what you want and need in production. modo was made by the artists that use it.

:thumbsup:

kursad_pileksuz
09-20-2004, 11:55 PM
just let you know thou, everything you guys are asking and more were all reported as feature requests in bug database during beta and alpha testing. hopefully they will be available to users soon with a patch or in newer version

ambient-whisper
09-21-2004, 12:01 AM
ps added a bit more :)

http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=1589045&postcount=29

BinarySoup
09-21-2004, 01:17 AM
thanks for the great insight AW, although I've never had the chance to use Mirai, alot of the pure modeling stuff you are describing is available in wings3d, and somethings I was hoping would be available in modo. hopefully the sdk will have the power to fix some of these shortcomings using plugins/scripts. I'd really like to see how powerful and flexible the sdk is beyond the current toolset, any examples luxology? for instance, is it within the reach of the sdk to add geometry pre highlighting in a efficient way through the existing functionality?

love the look of that pig, ambient, Weee! :D

kursad_pileksuz
09-21-2004, 01:40 AM
well you can simulate that by using falloffs to certain degree,i just tested edge bevel with linear falloff and works quite nice




Edge Distance bevel ( for a lack of a better word )

this bevel would only bevel edges until it meets the next set of edges and will stop there. this limit would be there so we could not destroy meshes so easily. check wings 3d for this feature. its what makes bevel worth using, because your not worried about ever destroying your geometry.

SheepFactory
09-21-2004, 02:01 AM
I think what ambient is trying to say is , when you bevel the edges should not go through each other. They should stop when they hit the limit.





well you can simulate that by using falloffs to certain degree,i just tested edge bevel with linear falloff and works quite nice




Edge Distance bevel ( for a lack of a better word )

this bevel would only bevel edges until it meets the next set of edges and will stop there. this limit would be there so we could not destroy meshes so easily. check wings 3d for this feature. its what makes bevel worth using, because your not worried about ever destroying your geometry.

kursad_pileksuz
09-21-2004, 02:50 AM
that is what i was trying to explain, you can set falloffs for end edges lets say, so they will get lesser value compared to middle(edges in between end and front) edges, you can paint weights for the edges that you want to bevel and the ones you think will have problems you paint with lesser value, then you end up having no problem edges after the bevel. again this is a solution, the way wings3d work is nice and we should have it as an option anyways

spacemunky
09-21-2004, 05:55 AM
I have to give modo credit..the bevel is amazing and the workflow is great. If you are a maya user and like an interface that is not that much of a departure from what you currently use then modo may be worth your money. There will always be tools in some apps and not in others and I have faith that if we give these guys a chance and keep the pressure on them to give us features we want that this will be an amazing app. I work at a large studio and I know first hand how hard it is for people to migrate from one app to another, and i comend luxology for trying to make the transition from apps like maya to another pure modeler easier. Plus coming from maya anything is an amazing modeler. WORKING BEVEL........THANK GOD

Ariel
09-21-2004, 06:36 AM
[edit]

oops posted in the wrong thread

Proximus
09-21-2004, 02:24 PM
Thanks a lot for the informative review, ambient-whisper :thumbsup:

rendermania
09-21-2004, 06:04 PM
You should check out C4D R9, it has most of what you mentioned Modo should have. It also has a HUD feature that you can add tools and stuff too, almost like the Tool Pipe in Modo.

Cheers,I got my first glimpse of Modo today (a friend just bought himself into the Modo-clan, so I was able to kick him off his machine eventually and take it for a brief spin). It looks like a good V 1.0, although a few obvious tools are missing at the moment. The UI seems quite easy to customize and not particularly difficult to get a hang of, and from an aesthetic standpoint its a goodlooking piece of software, so overall I'd say well done Luxology, even though I do think Modo is a wee bit overpriced for a standalone modeler with no rendering capability.

I'll also second tjnyc's advice to check out Cinema 9, because Modo's modeling tools are a veritable twin (or rather subset) of R9's subD tools, and Cinema's UI, keybindings, interface colors etc are deeply customizable as well (in fact its possibly to tear out the entire UI and rebuild it with a totally different look/layout, and switch between stored layouts on the fly).

I think Modo looks right for people who need a scriptable/macro-driven standalone subD modeler to sit next to their Maya or LW in a production setting and can afford the pricetag, buy I also happen to think that other people who need good modeling workflow, a fast renderer and an animation timeline in the same package are better off with Cinema 9 at the same price level, not least because you can already get 3rd party modeling extensions like Mesh Surgery, Jenna, Xfrog and DPit Nature Spirit to expand its capabilities. Modo strikes me as a more useful add-on for people who aren't happy with the modeling tools or modeling workflow they already have in their animation app, and want a more specialised modeling app on the side.

kursad_pileksuz
09-21-2004, 06:19 PM
here are my my comments on after reading people`s comments.
modo is both vertex , edge and polygon based modeler. but this is rather an analogy. for sure all softwares can handle vertex edge or polygons. But i mean as philosophy. I think that is the missing link in some people`s comments. for example i am quite confident to call silo and wings and mirai, mainly edge based modelling programs, while lightwave is vertex based modeler. But modo tries to handle all different kinds of modelling as good as possible. for example in wings and silo or in maya, handling large amount of vertixes is really pain, even thou there is some form of falloff in silo and artisan and lattice in maya, it is not as easy as modo or lightwave . that way if you are in wings, you try to avoid dealing with large amounts of vertex. Why do you think Zbrush is so powerful? because it can pull and push large amount of vertices like piece of cake.
So with modo you are getting power of edges and power of vertex based modelling philosophy, on top of it robust sd modelling.i just tried to list fundemantal matters here not feature lists. i hope that this can widen some ideas.

because i am getting a feeling that, people are asking what other`s softwares have as musts. it is important to implement important good features in a program, but musts can change from person to person, and also i do respect everyone`s modelliing way, i understand people do not want to change the way they model.Hopefully modo is not going to change the way you model but rather it will evolve your modelling.

flingster
09-21-2004, 07:21 PM
i like the idea of perl scripting sounds appealling.

is someones comment about an open sdk true?
is the sdk free?
is it fully open, or restricted in someway? if it is so open doesn't this present a risk for stability?

thanks.

ambient-whisper
09-21-2004, 07:49 PM
actually i still think that modo is actually better off being called a poly/vertex modeller at the moment. the reason i say this is not because it doesnt have edge based tools, because it does. but rather that it still has too much of an influence from LW to be considered an application where edges had the same considerations that polys/ verts do. maybe the consideration is there, but its not evolved enough to call it an equal edge/vertex/polygon modeller. since ive worked with pretty much all modellers in the past at one point or another, i can tell you that the main thing that other applications miss is "consistency" or tool concept unification. in ways modo has this problem too. not because of the way its been coded, but rather in the presentation of the tools to the user.

Extrude/ Extend
take extrude for example. its a concept of a function. and it shouldnt matter whether i select a vert... or edge.. or poly. i should have a single tool that will handle all 3 modes. maybe the different modes will give me different options. but its still one concept. yet we have a tool that sort of does the job. but when you click on an edge that isnt fully connected all the way around and you try to extrude that edge, it will not work how you expect. so we have another tool that handles that, called edge extend. in my opinion its not very consistent. because we have one tool that almost gets the job done, and then another "patch up" tool.
they do work different somewhat because extrude does have a "bevel effect", while extending doesnt. but it would be nice if modo was smart enough to know what function of a tool to use based on my selection if i simply use extrude. if i pick a single vertex that isnt connected by anything and i use extrude/extend. i want to be able to do things like extrude the vertex and have it connected by an edge.

actually it would be killer if we could have this :) because when drawing verts on a constrained surface ( it could be a scan, and i could want to make a cleaned upversion of the model ). what if instead of making just random verts.. and then try to figure out what belongs to where and just see a point cloud.. what if i could draw a vert and then extend/connect verts with edges so i could figure out the edgeloops WAY before i connect/make anything with faces/polygons.? i know we have splines and stuff, but thats another part of inconsistency or bloatware. why not make the simple/ important tools more fully featured, instead of building lots of single purpose tools for one mode..?

this is another thing i think should be considered into future versions of modo, and why i think it needs refinement.

again. im not saying modo isnt good. cuz im starting to like it more. but tool wise, and the idea of revolutionary bit im kind of missing, because it draws too much inspiration from the old ways of LW. which is nothing new.

i know people are into HUGE feature lists, but i think what should be the most important about any app is to make it accessible to everyone ( which is handled by interface and SIMPLE yet powerful/multifunctional/smart tools ). a small feature list is more than ok. as long as the tools that are mentioned feel complete

xsi for example has a lot of tools to get the job done. for sure it has a lot more to offer tool wise than modo does. but where it fails is that the entire selection methods( theres MANY ), and the many many tools for modelling slow down progress quite a bit. but it is a definitely good tweaker, ( besides the stupid selection bug/problem ).

Loop slice/ Connect and stuff

in my opinion loop slice should be gotten rid of completely and replaced with a standard and more powerful connect tool that does several things+ its existing features for the way it works now. ( like adding multiple parallel paths to an already defined/selected path. or have an option to have it continue until it finds a termination of an edgeloop/ poly row ( from the end/s of my selection )

one. it connects ANY selected verticies together with edges. if theres a path with open verts to be connected. it will be connected. the path does not have to be straight. but it could be very un-uniform. if i obviousely selected verts that already have edges between them, the tool will disregard them, obviousely ;).

two. it would split parallel edges ( or not parallel edge paths ).

three. it could also take polyrings/paths and split them like the bandsaw did in LW.( i think i got the name correct no? )

maybe something like this?

http://ambient-whisper.cgcommunity.com/images_dump/neato/Connect.jpg

this is an example where we dont need MANY tools. actually less tools. but more powerful and better thought out ones. you guys did a wonderful job with the interactive magnets and interface. now lets see the same love given to the tools.

( btw theres more examples where tools could be unified, like beveling and such. )

by unifying tools your making it simpler for the modeller to do his job. because he/she doesnt have to search for tools so much. instead he thinks about concepts, rather than the exact case he has infront of him, and the tool he will need for the job, and making the proper selection to make the tool work.

heh when it comes to modellers i could talk for hours :)

My Fault
09-21-2004, 08:00 PM
heh when it comes to modellers i could talk for hours :)
Keep talking man, keep talking. :thumbsup:

Seems like a lot of what Martin is talking about will be possible once the SDK is ready to go.

For instance, with perl couldn't you build an extrude that took in to account what you were selecting? If vertex, do this... if edge, do this, etc.

rendermania
09-21-2004, 08:11 PM
Ambient: are you talking about stuff like this?

http://www.tools4d.com/MeshSurgery/basics/ms.htm

tjnyc
09-21-2004, 08:17 PM
Fantastic thoughts AW!

I totally agree. Simple, streamline tools are all I ever want or need. I also agree with him on Loop Slice, I don't find it as an effective tool for what I need it to do, and I would much rather prefer a connect tool like AW is suggesting. When I don't have to think about what tools to use for any given situation and how it is going to work in that situation, I can then focus on what I am modeling instead.


Cheers,

flingster
09-21-2004, 08:19 PM
Extrude/ Extend
take extrude for example. its a concept of a function. and it shouldnt matter whether i select a vert... or edge.. or poly. i should have a single tool that will handle all 3 modes. maybe the different modes will give me different options. but its still one concept. yet we have a tool that sort of does the job. but when you click on an edge that isnt fully connected all the way around and you try to extrude that edge, it will not work how you expect. so we have another tool that handles that, called edge extend. in my opinion its not very consistent. because we have one tool that almost gets the job done, and then another "patch up" tool.
they do work different somewhat because extrude does have a "bevel effect", while extending doesnt. but it would be nice if modo was smart enough to know what function of a tool to use based on my selection if i simply use extrude. if i pick a single vertex that isnt connected by anything and i use extrude/extend. i want to be able to do things like extrude the vertex and have it connected by an edge.
.......
i know people are into HUGE feature lists, but i think what should be the most important about any app is to make it accessible to everyone ( which is handled by interface and SIMPLE yet powerful/multifunctional/smart tools ). a small feature list is more than ok. as long as the tools that are mentioned feel complete

xsi for example has a lot of tools to get the job done. for sure it has a lot more to offer tool wise than modo does. but where it fails is that the entire selection methods( theres MANY ), and the many many tools for modelling slow down progress quite a bit. but it is a definitely good tweaker, ( besides the stupid selection bug/problem ).

this is so so on the mark...so many developers miss this point...concept of usability.
one tool in all modes...
:bowdown:

ambient-whisper
09-21-2004, 08:19 PM
Keep talking man, keep talking. :thumbsup:

Seems like a lot of what Martin is talking about will be possible once the SDK is ready to go.

For instance, with perl couldn't you build an extrude that took in to account what you were selecting? If vertex, do this... if edge, do this, etc.
we will see. for now i think having a clean application at the "core" instead of having users clean it up would be great.


Ambient: are you talking about stuff like this?

http://www.tools4d.com/MeshSurgery/basics/ms.htm
kinda. not really. those tools do a bit too much ( and always having the full result showing can get a bit distracting ) im talking about single and simple unified tools that do different things, depending on how they are used.

Dion Burgoyne
09-21-2004, 08:48 PM
Extrude/ Extend
take extrude for example. its a concept of a function. and it shouldnt matter whether i select a vert... or edge.. or poly. i should have a single tool that will handle all 3 modes. maybe the different modes will give me different options. but its still one concept. yet we have a tool that sort of does the job. but when you click on an edge that isnt fully connected all the way around and you try to extrude that edge, it will not work how you expect. so we have another tool that handles that, called edge extend. in my opinion its not very consistent. because we have one tool that almost gets the job done, and then another "patch up" tool.

Unless I'm mistaken you're describing exactly whats in modo. Using the same hotkey modo determines, based on what you have selected, which mode to work in.

Example (http://www.afilmdream.com/modo/extrudex3.zip)

ambient-whisper
09-21-2004, 09:20 PM
i think theres a bit of concept inconsistency. i say this because extrude should extrude. and bevel should bevel. except we have a third tool ( extend) which patches up the open edge extrude problem. so theres a few tools that fight for concepts. plus theres another bevel for polys that works like extrude+ inset, to some extent. except a few extra options. and then we have smooth shift, shift etc,,etc,,etc.. way too similar tools. i was hoping to see something more clever :). like that extrude+inset tool. but maybe with constraints so i could choose to use both, or press ctrl+ direction to extrude directly out. or alt+ direction to constrain to only using inset. etc.

http://ambient-whisper.cgcommunity.com/images_dump/neato/extrude-problemos.jpg

kursad_pileksuz
09-21-2004, 11:05 PM
well, honestly i yet think that your "the way it should work like this" is an argument, i am personally happy (i would be happier if it is better) with it, and you are not. but that does not make any of our ideas universal fact. it is all relative. i persoanlly like the way extrude works, the way bevel works. for example there is only one bevel and i use it for all vert edge polygons through one shortcut, same for collapse. and you are saying that edge based modelers only should look like ones on the market, which i do not agree. if you come up with spesific examples of how thing not really working as they are supposed to , you are missing the point. i never said modo is an edge based modelling tool, but it tries to balance all kinds of modelling ideas in one modest enviroment, yes it is lacking couple tools, and somestuff can work better. but i am really not following you on how things "shoud and must work".
if you would be coming from maya or lightwave, you will be blessed with modo`s bevel. but you use different package and you are not happy, i think that is the thing, and i do respect that, and i personally do not see any reason why lux should not implement new ideas. i am sure they are yet trying to bring more features right now, because that is how they are going to sell it. but i yet have not seen models from people, and would like to see them popping up. if anyone tells me they tried to model something, but they could not because modo lacks so much based on real modelling experience, i would find that argument more grounded actually.
i think they should keep loopslice because then people start complaining about how they need to select all the edges around the rings to be able to cut. they should keep it and make it better.
just as an example , if luxology asks me which one do i want, edge extrude or falloff, i would say without any doubt that they can get rid of edge extrude. see , this is my must.

in my opinion maybe because i am little oldschool kinda modeler, but trying to really suck the application and find creative ways of doing things is more valuable, and modo is letting me be creative during modelling. that would be my main point to people who are interested in this package.

ambient-whisper
09-22-2004, 12:03 AM
ok im getting tired ( its late, so last post from me tonite.)

the only reason i said to replace loop slice with a simple connect tool is because loop slice does cutting through edges in a limited way. its an idea of the way that tool works. the thing that really limits it however is that it ONLY cuts through perfect edgeloops. and doesnt allow you to define a path of parallel edges ( or unparallel. ( see picture included a few posts back ). the tool could still do what you want. if you clicked an option to have modo split parallel edges until it found a termintation within the edgeloops that its travelling on. this would in effect do what you want. but it wouldnt be a tool that ONLY does that one thing. instead it would do what you want, and it could be used in more complex ways when needed. it would work in other selection modes and do other things as well. ( i included pictures in the posts before ).it would make no sense in adding a separate tool to handle more complex splits/connects. and then yet more tools that connect verts.. and then more tools that do poly splits. in this case you would only have one tool to worry about. instead of 20. and so you can concentrate on your model, instead of fighting with the keyboard looking for hotkeys/pie menus that has the correct tool your looking for. because you couldnt fit the tool in a certain menu.
im not saying that lux HAS to do all this. its their product and their choices. im just suggesting that if they want something really new and great. they should take all successful concepts from other apps and see what works. i would rather use one great application. than go to a dozen to achieve the same things. for most my needs clay fits in just fine. but for mechanical modelling it truly lacks. morphs are still done in mirai because it really excels in this area. xsi has good ideas too, and is great for doing things like matching up characters. cinema 4ds new interactive split tools, and a few other things are neat. and so is silos new topology brush for making derived models from scans/high rez models.

im just looking for one that is simple, yet can cover most my needs. thats why im making suggestions :). because i like to see tools evolve into something really usable and fast.
im also making suggestions not because i dont believe that this app cant model something ( because i seen great models made with only make create vert/ make face tools+ move. ). my suggestions are based on making this application give us ways to interact faster with it ( like having it do temporary pre selections where the cursor lies, so i can pick tools without ever selecting single elements ). having to worry less about which tools we are going to use for modelling, but rather how we are going to apply the tools to achieve what we want.

after having used many modellers in the past i can tell you that i dont need to spend a month with it to see its beauty, or ways things can improve. seeing how fast i can go from a tool to another, and have the application aid/show me what im going to select before i do so are all things that make me do less mistakes. having it select the nearest elements speeds me up and makes the modeller feel less like a cad program, and more free form. yet none of the stuff i mentioned would ever interfere with all the cad concepts that this app might have. infact they could improve things.

plus. one of my hobbies is to make suggestions. its just the way i am :) if its art, or software. its all the same to

me.:)

i dont want to sound cocky, but some of the zbrush stuff that you use were suggestions made by me. like merging a few tools into the projection master. during the beta we had a few modules that did similar things completely separated. once merged into one module however it worked so much better. let people be more flexible and do more things at the same time. or the drop down menus that let you edit/mix things until you move the cursor away. much better than having to scroll up and down through endless menus on the side.

zbrush 2 changed a ton from 1.55b. yet it was all for the better. because instead of looking and selecting tools. you have a lot accessible through the modifier keys that are right beside your navigation tools. and also having the neat hiding/unhiding tool features and masking features ontop of the same keys. its all on how you use them. , and you never need to look for them. but they are very quickly accessible, much more so than before. and this is what im interested in modo, because it can be so much more. its still early enough in the applications life that its easier to teach it some new tricks. like any application, it wont be so easy to change core stuff once its an older dog. ;) ( im not saying any of these suggestions are core changes, but you get the idea. )

Chewey
09-22-2004, 01:18 AM
Thanks Ambient for the comprehensive postings. With all that info in hand I'm content to wait and see how the complete suite of tools pans out.

Renderman_XSI
09-24-2004, 03:52 PM
Im speaking as a Mirai user

There is definitly a need for a simple connect tool. The Edge Slice tool comes close, but not close enough(its more like CUT). A connect tool like the one in wings3D/Mirai would be ideal. like AW said, a tool that does different things depending on how you use it. Surely we dont want to add another tool , just to add another hotkey to remember. Why not just extend the Edge Slice tool to work like a connect tool, for any element(point,edge,polygon).

Select mutliple points and hit "C" it''ll connect them.
Select mutliple edges, and hit "C" it'll connect them at the midpoint
Select mutliple polygons, and hit "C" it'll connect/create edges at the midpoint.

Just as illustrated in AW picture: http://ambient-whisper.cgcommunity.com/images_dump/neato/Connect.jpg

This way we wont have to add another tool to the list, or remove any tool, were just extending one tools functionality, in this case the Edge Slice tool. In mirai we have seperate tools for Cut and Connect, one of the function of Cut works the same way as edge slice in Modo. What im suggesting will combine Cut/Edge Slice with connect(from Mirai/Wings3D).

first off, i really like the idea of double clicking on a edge to select a loop, but it seem LMB,MMB,RMB all select loops upon double clicking, i think thats a waste of mouse buttons, why not let LMB(double click)= select loop, MMB(double click)=select ring, RMB(3 clicks) select ring/loop range. Check out the "Loops_Rings" jpeg image i attach to explain how that works. Im aware there are hotkeys for loop/ring, but this deals with the mouse usage not hotkey. Im also aware that there is a select more,less function, but adding a select loop/ring range wont hurt in the future.

Other than that, i'd to see more Mirai like features added, they are important for my workflow, like pre highlight before selection, mirai mouse navigation, a few other tools(flatten(base on X,Y,Z of an element, base on 4 point selection)), virtual mirror( i prefer this over the symmetry ), and most importantly, context sensitive menus..pie menus are OK..but nothing beats context sensitive menus in terms of speed and real estate space on screen. ;)

ThomasMahler
09-24-2004, 04:04 PM
Great suggestions, Renderman_XSI!

Hope the Lux guys listen to all the valueable suggestions here.

yinako
09-24-2004, 04:48 PM
Great suggestions, Renderman_XSI!

Hope the Lux guys listen to all the valueable suggestions here.
uhm...I'm not sooo sure, there are people who use tablet to model, and every time a new tool thats made to do double click/ or double mmb click!! I feel pretty stupid. some thing like marking menu would work better for modeling :)

leuey
09-24-2004, 05:28 PM
Well, one doesn't preclude the other. I use a tablet and am setting up a bunch of pie menues. That's what I like. But the double-clicking wouldn't impede that - and it works w/ a tablet too (i use a wacom and map the right mouse to the lower rocker switch and the middle to the upper - works great in maya).

Context sensitive menues are huge - i'm really surprised they aren't there (right click on edge to split, spin, etc...)

-Greg



uhm...I'm not sooo sure, there are people who use tablet to model, and every time a new tool thats made to do double click/ or double mmb click!! I feel pretty stupid. some thing like marking menu would work better for modeling :)

ThomasMahler
09-24-2004, 05:34 PM
uhm...I'm not sooo sure, there are people who use tablet to model, and every time a new tool thats made to do double click/ or double mmb click!! I feel pretty stupid. some thing like marking menu would work better for modeling :)

Well, hopefully it'll be possible in future Modo versions to totally remap the mouse buttons like in Silo.

Wait, isn't it already possible to just throw the command for selecting an edge into a pie menu and use that from a hotkey? Should make you happy. I guess you could (Maya-like) just trace the history, copy the command and create a new pie menu with that command in it (at least, I hope you could do that in Modo).

Who of you guys are really modeling with a Wacom? I found it pretty awkward to model with a wacom inside of most 3d modeling apps (just slows me down) - except ZBrush, of course.

yinako
09-24-2004, 06:02 PM
"Context sensitive menues are huge - i'm really surprised they aren't there (right click on edge to split, spin, etc...)"

There are no context sensitive pie menus in Modo?


Who of you guys are really modeling with a Wacom? I found it pretty awkward to model with a wacom inside of most 3d modeling apps (just slows me down) - except ZBrush, of course.
I'm suprised people model with a mouse, maybe because the tablet modeling support is very nice in Maya, most likely application depedent thing.

Anyway it come down to speed and accuracy, if you use a tablet it has less friction, and more accurate, like drawing....if you get use to it, you won't want to use a mouse.. :/

leuey
09-24-2004, 06:34 PM
There may be, I haven't had much time to play - too busy. But from what I've seen there are hardly any pre-defined pie menues (unline maya - where there's a ton of marking menues). And as far as I can tell they are not context sensitve - just commands attached to a 'pie' menu - not taking into account what the mouse is hovering over.

I love tablets - much easier on the wrist too. Once you get used to it there's no going back. Mice are for FPS.. : )

-Greg



"Context sensitive menues are huge - i'm really surprised they aren't there (right click on edge to split, spin, etc...)"

There are no context sensitive pie menus in Modo?


I'm suprised people model with a mouse, maybe because the tablet modeling support is very nice in Maya, most likely application depedent thing.

Anyway it come down to speed and accuracy, if you use a tablet it has less friction, and more accurate, like drawing....if you get use to it, you won't want to use a mouse.. :/

Gwot
09-24-2004, 08:58 PM
Disagree completely.
Most 3d UI's have nothing to do with painting. Until they all do (not just Zbrush) I'll keep my 5 button wheel mouse, thx. =]

durexlw
09-25-2004, 01:12 AM
ambient-whisper (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=3567), I like your style man. Luxology has already contacted you I hope. With the suggestions you make, you've had been in my office by now.

The reason I left Lightwave was inconsistency. Modeler of LW got so fragmented it had tools scattered all over the place, one filling on to the other, ending up with a shitload of tools that most of the time can be bundeled into one.

The reason I stepped into Modo was because of a cristal clear interface, modular build, consistent and flexible in use. The last three days I have read 75% of all material included with Modo and the more I read, the more I see an exact copy of LW6 modeler in a streamlined interface + some extra tools.
The moment I saw the release of Modo, that same moment I saw a heap of people jumping around, dreaming of making a bunch of tools, that'll make up for what is not there yet.
To see Modo start where LW is and added with a clean interface and a speedy workflow is a dream comming true for me. However, seeing Modo start where LW is, i'd love to see it go on the consistent ride... not one where bits and pieces get added.

Look at building software as making a pyramide. Once a pyramide is build, you don't just add another one on top of that... Nah, even a few hundreds of years ago, people were wise enough to build a new one in a new spot.
LW is one pyramide on top of the other, with plugins hanging on the sides all over the place to balance the whole thing.
Time is money, so maybe taking the time will bring money... think about it... A fast release of bits and pieces will bring nothing more then bad advertising.

The feeling I have when working with Modo is that a few tools have considered very deeply and others just were added really quickly as if they were typed over of some paper dated in the late 90's.

The biggest mistake in Modo is the inconsistency between the interface and the tools. It's a nice package of an old product at the moment. And what strikes me the most is that Luxology has the powers to make good stuff... look at the interface: Generic, clean, re-usable for all kinda sorts of things, virtually unlimited... and the tools, well, most of them seem to be made without consideration.
I'd like to have seen the same generic building of tools as intelligent, flexible and consistent as the interface... I'd like to see all of Modo!

Luxology has got somthing going here. This is a company worth investing in. Modo is a great package. However the tools inside Modo aren't Modo... they are Lightwave, with the exception of a few. I have to use the same workarounds here in modo as I had to do in LW. That's where something in the back of my mind tells me: "That does it! I'm outa here!"

Most people with whom I talked about Modo refer to your thread, Ambient-whisper. Most of them are waiting to see the things implemented you say before they'll buy Modo... there's a clue here Luxology...

Modo v1.0 rocks bigtime. It's a great apps. However for the next version, i'd like to see Modo tools, not LW's. We need tools with the same genius as the interface. The more Luxo will step away from Lightwave and the more it will grow towards the Modo spirit, the more copies they'll sell.

Wise are the men who are listening to experienced users like you Ambient-Whisper. We'll see at the next release how much they listened to you and they'll see on their incomes...
I wouldn't invite just everybody on a forum to my copany, but you'd have a contract of some sort by now man.
The developper that can lay hands on a few people like you, will end up with a kick-ass apps and a shitload of money!

Keep the idea's flowing man... eventually somebody will implement them... and i'm hoping Modo will!

Cheers,
Andy

CB_3D
09-25-2004, 02:19 AM
Couldnīt such "intelligent tools" already be scripted in Modo? For example an xtend toolthat bevels/shifts in Polyggon selection mode and extends in vertex and edge mode. From what i understand Modos command history is selection mode aware. Simple If/Then formulas should do the trick. hese unified tools could be further enhanced with different behaviours according to the button used. If/Then enhanced toolpipes that could be bound to keys for fast access.


PS:I agree, nothing better than a Wacom to model. Works wonderfully in LW Modeler, at least. Mouse only for games here.

Renderman_XSI
09-25-2004, 02:46 AM
not sure if this is possible in Modo now, but take a look at the picture. Its just some ways of exhancing the Extrude tool. But instead of holding Crtl key down you can always use Alt+Z(element) action center ;) Its still a extrude too, and you can control the number of sides still.

tayse
09-25-2004, 03:19 AM
you know what I just started thinking.... maybe even luxology does not know where modo's borders can be.... and how good modeller they just built.... with the base it has i think you can built anything on it.... (...and I just started making some financial arrangement to buy this monster baby modelling program )

you know there are some kids, you get answers as if you get them from an adult, when they talk... like little adults or grownups.... I think modo is like that... and dammmnnn smart...

kursad_pileksuz
09-25-2004, 04:18 AM
that is the main point of modo that people has not figured out, that is why we hear some cries yet, because it has been couple of days. anything that shows up in the toolpipe should be used with others. there may be bug here and there, but that is the bottom line. and on top of it, add easily managable recordable, and editable macros. modo gives you alot of options without alot of technical knowledge.



not sure if this is possible in Modo now, but take a look at the picture. Its just some ways of exhancing the Extrude tool. But instead of holding Crtl key down you can always use Alt+Z(element) action center ;) Its still a extrude too, and you can control the number of sides still.

leuey
09-25-2004, 05:16 AM
Doesn't have anything to do w/ painting. Navigating the viewports in Maya, LW, Modo - much easier w/ a Tablet (IMO of course). You can 'swoop' across the tablet w/ the pen without having to push any buttons (L mouse is just pressing on the tablet) - combi's of RM or MM w/ Left mouse don't entail pushing 2 buttons at once - just pressing and pushing. Much easier on the wrist. Not saying you don't have a legit reason to work w/ a mouse, but the 'painting' thing is irrelevant, it's not like painting (at all - but the painting stuff like artisian, airbrush, paintfx - much better). I used a mouse for 3D for about 7 years, my wrist f'ing hurt. Last 3 years w/ a big tablet my wrist almost never hurts - and (at least for me) it's a much smoother process - moving, dragging, selecting - much more natural swooping a pen than pushing/pulling a mouse.

-Greg



Disagree completely.
Most 3d UI's have nothing to do with painting. Until they all do (not just Zbrush) I'll keep my 5 button wheel mouse, thx. =]

ambient-whisper
09-25-2004, 05:24 AM
you know. the wrist hurting doesnt have anything to do from using a mouse. but rather how intuitive the application is. how comfortable the button combinations are, and such. like in maya where you have to press left and middle click to zoom ( before version 3/4 ( forget which introduced right click to navigation ). after a while it does get to you. also could be the mouse setup, or mouse itself.

i been using mice for almost 10 years and my wrist is in great condition.

yinako
09-25-2004, 07:44 AM
ahh, that was a bad term "like painting", what I really meant was be able to select vertex/edge fast and tumble the view fast, since that what you do alot, when modeling. its alot like an artist putting down strokes, without thinking about it, obviously not that fast when modeling but it gives that feeling.

"after a while it does get to you. also could be the mouse setup, or mouse itself. "
Yes modeing in maya is definately not meant to be used with a mouse, I have used it for the first 2 years and always felt somthing was not right. untill I tried it with a tablet and I could tell it was meant to used with a tablet, everything felt right with the rotate/zoom/pan, I feel quite stupid at the time :/

Also after version 4.5 i think they added zoom with RMB for the mouse(eaiser for mouse user), it use to be only alt+MMB+RMB which is only good for a tablet(alt+tip+ hold the pen)

Also if you use MAX with a table you know its designed for a mouse, same with SI/XSI/, so I have yet to see a good modeler with awsome tablet interface like maya, obviously i Havnt use modo, if the naviation matchs maya's then great!

CB_3D
09-25-2004, 10:12 AM
you know. the wrist hurting doesnt have anything to do from using a mouse. but rather how intuitive the application is. how comfortable the button combinations are, and such. like in maya where you have to press left and middle click to zoom ( before version 3/4 ( forget which introduced right click to navigation ). after a while it does get to you. also could be the mouse setup, or mouse itself.

i been using mice for almost 10 years and my wrist is in great condition.
You are lucky not to have a tendency for that problem. I do, and WACOM saved my butt...well, wrist.

leuey
09-25-2004, 10:41 PM
I beg to differ - (or maybe I just don't understand your post)

mouse + LW modelling (lots of dragging w/ the button pushed) = my wrist hurting.
Tablet + LW modelling (lots of draggin w/ just the stylus pressed) = my wrist not hurting.

so yeah - it's the app too. But it obviously can be the mouse/app combo (maybe that's what you're trying to say).

-Greg




you know. the wrist hurting doesnt have anything to do from using a mouse. but rather how intuitive the application is. how comfortable the button combinations are, and such. like in maya where you have to press left and middle click to zoom ( before version 3/4 ( forget which introduced right click to navigation ). after a while it does get to you. also could be the mouse setup, or mouse itself.

i been using mice for almost 10 years and my wrist is in great condition.

Sbowling
09-26-2004, 03:50 AM
you know. the wrist hurting doesnt have anything to do from using a mouse. but rather how intuitive the application is. how comfortable the button combinations are, and such. like in maya where you have to press left and middle click to zoom ( before version 3/4 ( forget which introduced right click to navigation ). after a while it does get to you. also could be the mouse setup, or mouse itself.

i been using mice for almost 10 years and my wrist is in great condition.
Actually, it has everything to do with the mouse and how the mouse is designed. I can sit at home on my PC and work for hours with no pain, but I have to take brakes on the Macs at work because of the retarded mouse designs. I finally bought a decent logitech mouse for at work and I've had a lot of positive comments from people who've used it. One of my biggest problems with Apple is their seeming form over function attitude, but that's a discussion for other places. :D

Gwot
09-26-2004, 05:03 AM
Yep, mouse design itself plays a big role in comfort. I use a logitech as well because they fit my hand as closely as if I had laid it on top of the desk in a natural relaxed pose. Desk height and ample work surface also play a big part in mousing ergonomics. I've found that a higher than usual desk height - enough so that I can easily rest my arm from the elbow down on the surface helps keep my arm straight and relaxed. I've never had problems since adopting these little tweaks, and I've worked a LOT of 12 hour days in the last 5 years.

I'm actually more likely to get a cramped hand from using my tablet for too long than I am a sore wrist from the mouse.

I stick with the mouse not because it's more comfortable though, but faster and more versatile. A pen only has so many inputs that you can combine with a keyboard. A mouse simply has more and if the app takes advantage of this you will spend more time working right in your viewport with your mesh than you will accessing buttons and menus (marking, pie, or otherwise).

Anyone that has used Silo and really tweaked the mouse config into high gear knows you can do a hell of a lot of modeling operations with just the mouse , CTRL, SHIFT and ALT key combos. No pen can compete with that.

ambient-whisper
09-26-2004, 05:12 AM
coupled with the ability to let your mouse go. and just press a button. you cant get that kind of accuracy with a pen.

but. for tweaking models ( especially if the application has a way of aiding with selecting the closest element/s ), the tablet kicks ass. :) even more so if you can add soft selection into the mix, and pressure sensitivity.

Gwot
09-26-2004, 05:27 AM
Agreed. Pressure sensitivity, and stroke-based edits are definitely where a tablet excels.

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