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opus13
09-18-2004, 07:18 AM
why does everyone feel compelled to post their half-finished noodlings in this forum?

it tedious looking down the list of posts and seeing people post nothing but unfinished/incomplete pieces, expecting some sort of praise or feedback. isnt that what the "work in progress" forum is for? i realize that this is the accepted behavior on the pixolator forums,as there was only one main bucket to toss posts in to, but if you look at any application specific foum on cgtalk you dont see 4 out of 5 posts being "whee! i made something in an hour! yay for me!" so far i have seen two completed images. two... and no, i havent looked at every single thing, its too boring.

if i didnt know any better: this forum demonstrates that it impossible to actually do anything with this program. its all half assed.

its gets in the way of anyone actually looking at this forum to learn something. if someone wants to look at unfinished items, they would click on the WIP section, not head into here.

out.

JHarford
09-18-2004, 09:21 AM
check the bottom of the thread Hellman, for a non half finished image.
Theres a lot of finished work out there.
Designpicture.com, antropus.
Do your research a bit more next time,or quit joking

Antropus
09-18-2004, 11:00 AM
if i didnt know any better: this forum demonstrates that it impossible to actually do anything with this program. its all half assed. Looks like a joke :)

Cya,
Kris

celmar
09-18-2004, 12:15 PM
well, I don't speak a so good english that I would be able to understant if it's a joke... humor is more simple with woody allen... but I must say that I agree with opus... there are a lot of unfinished works; one thing is that I don't think it is linked to zbrush: since there are characters with arms horizontals on the different forums, they must be a whole incredible amount of animation... and since there are differents tests of caustics and so on, on "concept" something, contemporary design must be very very different..of course it's not.... so, maybe searching is a natural step... and on that question, zbrush is specific: as opus said, people on zbrush says often" modeled in one hour", or so... it's because it is very fast, like drawing on a paper with pencil; it doesn't mean that, when drawing, the lines are good, artistic, and smart... it just means that they are, oviously, fast... that's why, too, there are a lot of sculpted forms, which never goes further, on z forums... but it's true on all the softwares: with the exception of mechanical modelling, the modelled forms are the exact reflection of the level of drawing of the author!...

pencil-head
09-18-2004, 12:42 PM
it tedious looking down the list of posts and seeing people post nothing but unfinished/incomplete pieces, expecting some sort of praise or feedback. isnt that what the "work in progress" forum is for?I agree with you on that one. I would rather see this forum used for sharing tips and techniques, not posting incomplete works.

if i didnt know any better: this forum demonstrates that it impossible to actually do anything with this program. its all half assed.Very ignorant thing to say. Have you even used zbrush?

marciani
09-18-2004, 02:57 PM
Hi all
i can't resist..........:)
me too i've an opinion about this topic:
Does'nt exist a simply rule overall, but in everywhere you need have some good sense (sorry for my english...).
This forum is more "professional" instead Pixolator Forum; like just said in Pixolator forum the critics and comment have too much honey around:D , i'm agree with opus, there must be a limit about which post here.
There are many levels of work in progress and truely is not necessary show all.
But..there is alwais a but, i've notice in my precedent post and generally a toughness toward all work made in Zbrush.
It's seems to me there is a rule here , where the judge often, is give not for the final impact of image, but for the technical difficult to do this; in this way we have not a good workflow beetwen our idea, but a war beetwen different medium.
Bye
Leo

opus13
09-18-2004, 05:17 PM
Very ignorant thing to say. Have you even used zbrush?
no, thats my point! i do know its possible to do excellent work with zbrush. i have used it myself, and know the applications potential.

my point is: IF i didnt know anything about the application and i started to browse this forum, i would be severely 'turned off' by the representative works that i see...

oh yeah, the hellman project was one of the two finished ones that i saw. im not joking.

celmar
09-18-2004, 06:10 PM
I understand that you are not joking... absolutely no problem on that... But I'm just curious: there are here, for a week's old forum, more finished pictures than on other, since much more time... don't matter, I don't care about that, each forum is going his own way, but I just try to understand what you think... on the question of the time of work Zbrushers says often, like : 2 hours or so on, it's just because it's involved in the zbrush process... zbrush is as simple than paper and pencil, or oil and brush, it's as fast , and at the end as complicated to know...

plaguelord
09-18-2004, 09:20 PM
I agree about the Finished Works and Wip forums, this forum should be use like all app forums, but, in other hand, its a real new forum, only a week or two. So, give it some time...

Antropus, please please remove that ugly croach from you avatar! Ive fobia about that creatures and really scare me.. :scream:
OT, I read your story on zbrush page, simply amazing, btw, you dont miss the bank? :rolleyes: just joking lol

NanoGator
09-19-2004, 12:21 AM
I wouldn't draw the conclusion that it means finished work cannot be done with it.

Here's the simple reason: ZBrush is difficult to pick up and use when it comes to making these 3D models. Lots of experimentation needs to be done to master it and posting stuff for critique invites suggestions for improvement.

:)

roguenroll
09-19-2004, 03:37 AM
half finished works don't bother me as much as sorting through threads that have nothing to do with zbrush. bigger waste of space IMO

an exchange of ideas and concepts is often not neatly packaged.

aminuts
09-19-2004, 07:28 AM
Amen.....this forum is new.....Opus ya haven't even given the folks running it a chance to settle in.....and may I remind you as well.....this is a joint venture with Pixologic and CG so maybe the "rules" you are used to .....might not apply here 100%.

Pixologic's zbc forum is very big on helping folks...they have recently fixed things up so folks can find that help more efficiently....however....the underlying theme of ZBC....is the users. The user's there are some of the most helpful creative folks you will ever see at a forum whether it's about 3d or not.....and I believe that Pixologic has a vested interest in keeping anything to do with their product...like this forum.....in the same vein...friendly, courteous, and helpful. So.......

Yeah....it's gonna take more than a week and a half to establish things here.....especially in the same friendly, courteous, and ever so helpful manner that zbc set the standard for.

So.....give em a break....come back a bit later....perhaps after the dust settles and maybe things will be as You would like em to be.....no I don't work for em but I'd kill for em if the money was right! hahhaa. JK. maybe

MrBook
09-21-2004, 03:41 AM
my point is: IF i didnt know anything about the application and i started to browse this forum, i would be severely 'turned off' by the representative works that i see...

I, for one, have no experience with zbrush, know absolutely nothing about the application, and came to this forum with the express purpose of seeing some results. I'm actually impressed by what I see. The fact that some early adopters of ZB2 are getting decent results, even if they only work on a model for an hour or so, is really pretty encouraging. It shows that the learning curve isn't too steep.

flingster
09-21-2004, 11:55 AM
what are you guys talking about:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=168265

this is the point of this forum!

PLEASE FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF WITH THESE RULES BEFORE POSTING IN THE FORUM! It will make life easier for everyone.

1) The ZBrush forum at CGTalk is meant primarily for sharing finished images and WIPs, ZBrush tips and tricks, and general usage questions and answers
move on...:deal:

Kanga
09-22-2004, 12:33 PM
I think you are in the wrong forum and are looking for finished work. There are many examples of fine 3d compositions where the artist clearly states the use of ZB.

I guess you would post a wip here if it was specifically ZB related. I have commented on wip threads where I have asked how a specific effect was created, but then again I am genuinely interested in the application. Go over to the 3dMax forum and see how many wips are posted there to illustrate specific questions.

As far as your comment about the usefullness of this 'incredible' program: there is not a hair on my bald head that would contenplate gracing you with a reaction.

(Dang I just did react! Why do I do that?):banghead:

richcz3
09-22-2004, 07:08 PM
I partly agree with Nanogator.
It's a tough program to get into at first...second and ...errr third.
To get the results requires allot of re-learning because it's not a true 3D (2.5D Paint) program and that alien interface. :scream: I have managed to get my brain around it and I'm slowly getting decent results.

ZBrush is an amazing program after you've pulled every hair out of your head. So when I see a finished or WIP I realize that person is either bald or close to bald. :)

celmar must have a very shiny cranium. :thumbsup:


richcz3

roguenroll
09-22-2004, 07:32 PM
I partly agree with Nanogator.
It's a tough program to get into at first...second and ...errr third.
To get the results requires allot of re-learning because it's not a true 3D (2.5D Paint) program and that alien interface. :scream: I have managed to get my brain around it and I'm slowly getting decent results.

ZBrush is an amazing program after you've pulled every hair out of your head. So when I see a finished or WIP I realize that person is either bald or close to bald. :)

celmar must have a very shiny cranium. :thumbsup:


richcz3
ha ha your killing me. :scream: BTW I'm partly bald, and its going fast:)

ambient-whisper
09-22-2004, 08:22 PM
i dont know what you guys are talking about. i find zbrush soo bloody simple its not funny. hell i even turn off my interface pretty much the entire time that im sculpting and just use shortcuts/right click menu. ( or the drop down menus ).

but in my opinion. its soo bloody straight forward once you "get it"

when i show zbrush to people they think im drawing.:) thats how little interface i use.

tjnyc
09-22-2004, 08:44 PM
Maybe it is like learning to swim. It seems foreign at first and you struggle, but once you get it, you get it. Personally, ZB 2 really clicked for me and I was off and running with it in no time, but I benefited from The Practical Guide, Martin's and Aurick's videos and Strike's ZScript. Those things really help me understand what was what.



Cheers,

roguenroll
09-22-2004, 09:39 PM
yeah Ive only been in for a few weeks, the initial dive in was weird, but after a few sessions
it really starts to feel alright. most of it is familiarity.

I will admit the LW ZB disp workflow would have taken be weeks without the cool flash tutorial.
Just so many new oddball settings and options to learn.

R

marciani
09-22-2004, 10:14 PM
Hi all,
i'm totally agree with ambient-whisper.
It's different like many software you can try.
Probably the best limit is in mind; don't misunderstand and let me explain.
Often many of us are stopped because no animation,you can't fly through or walking around of the mesh, and other stuff like different visual sub scattering and last but not last the perfect shadow:)
Me too have said this.
It's take out of the street.
How many of us need effectively animation?
How many of us need the rigid and cool perfection of raytracing and radiosity?
How many work doesn't satisfied us?
For me many time i'm in this situation.
Sometimes you need only paint and relax; the most important thingh is what you have in mind not the medium,
Truly if i need to do an interior design i don't use Zbrush, but for all the other non mechanical parts in a fast way you can do almost everythingh.
The important is what you have in mind.
Zbrush is the closest software wich make me able to represent almost everythingh i think.
If you go in my web page you can see in temporary order many work gallerys, starting from Lightwave and finish with Zbrush:http://www.graphikaos.it/.
Honesty there is a big gap beetwen. All the work in Z are made in 1 year and half.
This is not my work , i'm not able to take a pen in my hand, and i haven't a paint background.
Bye
Leo

Kanga
09-23-2004, 12:13 AM
I find one of the most difficult aspects of ZB2 is the documentation.

For instance, if you have a simple question it is often difficult to find an answer quickly.

In Max if you have a query then F1 and BLAM a single pdf file and search reveals quickly what you need (mostly). However when looking at that file I often think it must have taken an army 10 years to compile it. Considering the price an power of ZB2 I am not going to complaine.

Finding your way about can be a bit dodgy at times though.

ambient-whisper
09-23-2004, 01:25 AM
I find one of the most difficult aspects of ZB2 is the documentation.

For instance, if you have a simple question it is often difficult to find an answer quickly.

In Max if you have a query then F1 and BLAM a single pdf file and search reveals quickly what you need (mostly). However when looking at that file I often think it must have taken an army 10 years to compile it. Considering the price an power of ZB2 I am not going to complaine.

Finding your way about can be a bit dodgy at times though.next time your inside zbrush, press ctrl as your cursor hovers over anything. ;) just wait and see. great helper for sure

then you have interactive tutorials. go into zscripts menu and make sure you have the notes turned to ON. another great way of learning.

then you can go to the learning section of the app and read the notes that way.

then you have the practical manual.

then you have a few videos by people.


i really fail to see how zbrush fails at documentation. i think its one of the best parts of the program.

roguenroll
09-23-2004, 02:10 AM
ref. docs, there are some good doc, specially compared to other apps. I think I can see though, that the docs will quickly be outdone by the growing community.

Theres already some great tutorials (mostly the vid ones) by some great artists and ZB enthusists.

I'm diggin it

Kanga
09-23-2004, 10:41 AM
ambient-whisper

Wonderfull tutorial you made for the practical guide BTW.
Very nice modelling.

flingster
09-23-2004, 11:01 AM
i understand where someone comes from when they say the documentation is not the best...but i think the whole zscripts help system is pure genius, the practical guide has no competitor...so what it does have is top dollar and certainly helped me get my head around a lot of stuff in it...if i was to bitch i'd like to see a pdf manual for v2 other than that its all good and some companies should take a lead on that interactive help/zscript help cause its kicks butt.
:shrug:

Kanga
09-23-2004, 02:40 PM
..... i'd like to see a pdf manual for v2 .....
I would like this too,... but then for the work it would take you could probably put 1000 bucks extra on top of the price for ZB,..... that would be less fun!

I am used to scanning a manual on my left monitor with my project on the right. I find z scripts cumbersome but I know many people love them. I think its just a question of adapting.

Nobody should try and take my copy of ZB away from me though,..... they would get bitten!

bongob
09-24-2004, 05:42 PM
opus,

I am young, this forum is young and Zbrush 2(!) is young...

be patient - Zbrush is like a good game (eg starcraft)
Its easy to learn but hard to master...lets wait and see who will grow Gozu...

GG ;>

mfg felix

EDDIEthePIRATE
09-25-2004, 03:51 AM
I think people should post works in progress here. Not only is the reviews of others helpful. But it may inspire new works art out of many individuals.:bounce:

SheepFactory
09-25-2004, 07:14 AM
I agree with opus. We have a WIP section here for you to post the models. For some reason LW and c4d users do post at the software forums and now the zbrush users do too. I dont let it in the Softimage and Maya forums and it keeps the forum much cleaner. if I want to see someones wip i'll go to the wip forum.

Kanga
09-25-2004, 02:03 PM
.....We have a WIP section here for you to post the models. ...I dont let it in the Softimage and Maya forums and it keeps the forum much cleaner. if I want to see someones wip i'll go to the wip forum.
Cool,... then I will only post a wip if it illustrates a technical question I am asking.

aminuts
09-26-2004, 12:07 AM
Another thought.....would you judge a power tool by the user? What if the user never used a router before? What if he was a master at routing? If you want to see how best the tool works you go to the source or seller of the object to see what's possible....they will only show you the best. That's great and all, but if you never used one before will you not benefit by those who have gone before you? Made the mistakes before you make em? So you can avoid them perhaps?

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with posting wips here.....they all will help someone somewhere, perhaps show you a different way of approaching something and isn't that what all this is about anyways?

chadtheartist
09-29-2004, 06:03 PM
I'm sure Pixologic made certain that people could post "Zbrush" specific work here, and that to me is made apparent by the very first rule of this forum.

1) The ZBrush forum at CGTalk is meant primarily for sharing finished images and WIPs, ZBrush tips and tricks, and general usage questions and answers.

This was already pointed out previously in the thread. In case someone missed it.

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