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View Full Version : Mi SSS Simple Occlusion where is it????


CrazyDamo
09-15-2004, 02:11 PM
Hey everyone... pulling out my hair (what left of it) to find out what happended to the Misss_Simple_Occlsion Node in the Subsurface scattering package that you can download from the Alias site. I'm going through Paolo Berto's tutorials and would like to cover the ambient occlusion stuff a little more (to finish a job i'm working on)...but no misss_simple_Occlusion shader is available.

Can anyone help? Need help soon or my eyes will explode....well not really, but it could happen!!


cheers
Crazy D.

grafix
09-15-2004, 06:07 PM
Well... in my installation it's under Create mental ray Nodes / Textures. If not, you should try reinstalling the package.

BTW, it's really fast but you need quite high sampling values for getting acceptable quality...

grafix
09-16-2004, 08:27 AM
Hey Crazy D.,

I just did a reinstall of the SSS package on another computer with a fresh download and say what? miSSS_simple _occlusion is not there. Obviously, there was an update after I dowloaded the pack for the first time from Alias. In fact, all the icons have changed and when I checked the subsurface.mi file there is the following line in the history section:

18.08.04 paolo: cleaned up for maya integration.

I downloaded it around August 18 for the first time. Seems that the "cleanup" kicked miSSS_simple _occlusion :shrug:.

Perhaps someone could provide you with the old version (could this become a legal problem with Alias?). I have no access to my old download at this moment...

Grafix

CrazyDamo
09-16-2004, 01:29 PM
Thanks so much Grafix! Really apreciate you having a look at that. I'm a little worried about messing with Alias legal by using an older version for production. Should be ok though. Will have to send Paulo B. an Email and ask him directly as to why it was removed. I would otherwise mail Alias....but having mailed them bofore and recieved no feedback it might be easier to go straight to the source. If I find out anything I'll post it here. In the mean time I will just have to settle with using FG for ambient occ. Its good, but just takes far to long.

Thanks again mate.
Cheers.

Crazy D.

BillSpradlin
09-16-2004, 07:16 PM
Why not use Dirtmap for your AO passees? Works very nicely and gives excellent results.

BillSpradlin
09-16-2004, 10:13 PM
I just got a response from Paolo and he said that the occlusion shader would be available on mental images site this Fall. Whenever that will be heh.

BillSpradlin
09-17-2004, 05:20 AM
So anyone who has this shader pack with the miss occlusion in it mind uploading it somewhere? If it was already posted by Alias then there shouldn't be a legal issue with it, and Paolo said it would be up on MI's site sometime in the Fall(who knows when). I'd really like to be able to use it since it has some better options for occlusion that Dirtmap does not.

donvlatko
09-17-2004, 10:16 AM
I am with you BillSpradlin, I can' wait to test the shader!

ajsfuxor
12-07-2004, 02:57 AM
I dont suppose anyone intends on posting it?

Wouldnt mind getting my hands on it.

Daniel Whitton
12-07-2004, 05:48 AM
I download gmk when it first came out. It has the occlusion shader.


http://www.whitton3d.com/DanWhitton/

ajsfuxor
12-07-2004, 10:57 PM
Thanks Daniel, got it now.

Aneks
12-08-2004, 03:20 AM
thanks of rthat I am testing it now. Looks good, doeas reflection occlusion ... no bent normal output ?

Jozvex
12-08-2004, 03:22 AM
The Mode setting switches between 4 different settings including 2 types of bent normals.

ajsfuxor
12-08-2004, 03:28 AM
jozvex, so damn fast!

anyone care to explain how you would use bent normals in post? Or what its purpose is?

Also, is anyone using the Dirtmap/occlusion shader in conjunction with FG? Seems to me like there isnt a massive difference in post when using it.

Thanks.

slipknot66
12-08-2004, 04:39 AM
Also, is anyone using the Dirtmap/occlusion shader in conjunction with FG? Seems to me like there isnt a massive difference in post when using it.

Thanks.Well, i did a test using FG and GI with the Dirtmap, this image was composed using Photshop, first i rendered the FG/GI in one entire pass, 54minutes to render, then i add the Occlusion pass in Photoshop.What i noticed is that it really helps to enhance the contact shadows, im still working on this project, but i really liked the results i got with dirtmap and FG/GI combination:)
http://img114.exs.cx/img114/2723/internawip5xw.th.jpg (http://img114.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img114&image=internawip5xw.jpg)

Undseth
12-08-2004, 06:19 AM
I love your picture there slipknot66. I have to ask, was perhaps the dirtmap used to cover up bad GI/FG in the corners or if not, may I ask what was your "strategy" in setting up the GI settings for that picture of yours?

I have tweaked for hours and still havent figured out how to get a nice result with a lower GI radius (bright spots appear in corners).

Jozvex
12-08-2004, 06:57 AM
jozvex, so damn fast!

It helps to have no life! Hehe.

anyone care to explain how you would use bent normals in post? Or what its purpose is?

I 'think' the idea is that it lets you tweak the lighting of your scene in post. If you have a bent normals pass the light from one direction is one colour (like red), so then if you tweak the red area and apply it to your beauty pass you tweak that direction of light. People have explained it to me a few times now but until I actually see for myself how it works I'm still a bit lost.

Also, is anyone using the Dirtmap/occlusion shader in conjunction with FG? Seems to me like there isnt a massive difference in post when using it.

The different with FG is that it can provide actual lighting and colour bleeding at the same time as the occlussion effect.

BonoMan
12-08-2004, 08:17 PM
I'm just getting into the -confusing- world of MR. So I don't know much about AO or what it really does...(which by the way..how do you composite it onto an image in photoshop?).

Anyways I know that from reading the docs..that using Image Based Lighting with just a simple color for the texture instead of an image basically gives an AO pass. Or so it says in the docs...

If I'm way off can someone explain to me what the hell bent normals and AO even is..thanks!

ajsfuxor
12-08-2004, 08:31 PM
Thanks jozvex, very interesting, might have to do some tests with bent normals.

So, does this mean you wouldnt wouldnt normally use a dirtmap pass if you are already using FG?

On a side note, where are you from in Australia/working?

(Also how do you insert quotes in posts?)

Bonoman: Yes, this can provide you with a fake dirtmap solution, and i have found it quite useful.

slipknot66
12-08-2004, 08:42 PM
I love your picture there slipknot66. I have to ask, was perhaps the dirtmap used to cover up bad GI/FG in the corners or if not, may I ask what was your "strategy" in setting up the GI settings for that picture of yours?

I have tweaked for hours and still havent figured out how to get a nice result with a lower GI radius (bright spots appear in corners).Thank you, well when you use GI for illumination, its always a good idea to use FG together, because it helps to prevent the bright spots, about dirtmap, what i noticed is that it really help to enhance the contact shadows, and also to prevent the bright spots .:thumbsup:

slipknot66
12-08-2004, 08:46 PM
BonoMan " which by the way..how do you composite it onto an image in photoshop?. "

Just put the occlusion layer above your beauty layer, and use a multiply blending mode:thumbsup:

Jozvex
12-08-2004, 09:47 PM
So, does this mean you wouldnt wouldnt normally use a dirtmap pass if you are already using FG?

Well, I guess no, but I'm sure there are situations where both together would be useful. Perhaps for example you want a room to brighten via FG as a window opens, but you'd need extremely high settings to get nice contact shadows under lots of tiny objects on a shelf. You could just use a large FG radius for smooth overall lighting and then use the Dirtmap shader for the detailed contact shadows.

On a side note, where are you from in Australia/working?

I'm in Canberra, the most un-CG friendly state possible. We only have 1 small 3ds Max studio to my knowledge. At the moment I'm starting to do work for a company based in the US called Stork Visual Media which is good. I've never been paid to do 3D yet! But soon!

Hehe some of my friends work at big places like Animal Logic and Ambience Entertainment and I'm sure they got jobs there just to spite me, haha. I'm kidding of course in case any of them read this........ :scream:

(Also how do you insert quotes in posts?)

You click on the Quote button under the person's post rather than hitting reply. To do a few seperate quotes in one post I just copy/paste the code a few times.

ajsfuxor
12-08-2004, 09:55 PM
cool, another fellow aussie!

I used to work at Iloura down in Melbourne not long ago, but have since moved on to do my own thing.

Iloura being a primary Max based house, and using VRAY quite alot, its interesting to see some of these comparisons with MR (of which i am coming to grips with using, can be quite brain draining), has been very helpful.

Daniel Whitton
12-09-2004, 03:54 AM
What are peoples preferences with occlusion. Just though I'd run these questions for the heck of it.

DO you prefer to use AO as a sepereate pass, plugged itno Lumiinacne>diffuse, or into Ambient slot. Wondering in one way or another was more beneficial/faster. I havn't noticed much diference.

One thing I have noticed and got me a little puzzled is if you run a seperate pass with the Drtmap shader and one Pass with MI_SSS_Simple_occ with the same sampling right out of the box I get different contact shadows and different passes. The dirtmap tends to be brighter while simple occlusion tends to have darker and broader shadows. Just a thought.

Aneks
12-09-2004, 04:22 AM
I 'think' the idea is that it lets you tweak the lighting of your scene in post. If you have a bent normals pass the light from one direction is one colour (like red), so then if you tweak the red area and apply it to your beauty pass you tweak that direction of light.
Using normal outputs to relight a 3d element is actually pretty staright foreward. Have a look at sexyLight for shake on highend2d.com for a really usefull example of this. I have had a bit of luck with it. Using Bent Normal outputs from shaders is a bit more convoluted. I am in the process of developing methodolgy to do ambient colouring, reflection and relighting in shake using bent bent normals... hence my question about mi_simple_occlude output modes. When I have some spare time and have nailed it I will be adding this and some more tuts to the ones hosted at vfxtalk.

Plus I am trying to convince a friend of mine to help rewrite them for some other comp apps lke ae and combustion.

What are peoples preferences with occlusion.
I would heartily recommend using AO as a seperate pass and either using it as a multply or else inverting it and then using this as a matte to introduce an 'occlusion' colour.
One place I worked had a renderman shader that would produce an image that was totally black and just showed areas of occlusion as shades of grey to white. This was great for introducing occlusion colours other than black.

I have made a simple tut which explains my method of compositing in shake and at the end there is some brief notes on how I use dirtmap in a shake comp !

http://www.vfxtalk.com/tutorialfiles/shake/multipass_tut.zip

One thing I have noticed and got me a little puzzled is if you run a seperate pass with the Drtmap shader and one Pass with MI_SSS_Simple_occ with the same sampling right out of the box I get different contact shadows and different passes. The dirtmap tends to be brighter while simple occlusion tends to have darker and broader shadows.
yep notice this myself yesterday when doing some test for a job I am on at the moment. I actually have been boosting contarct in dirmap render for a while now in order to get the level of occlusion I was used to getting from the PRman shader I used to use....sadly no PRman where I am right now :(

I also noticed that misss_simple_occ is a little faster !

ajsfuxor : there are a lot of Australians on CGTalk. Most are just learning/working from home but then again there are quite of few pros here too ! I am freelance vfx artist who has been wokring around the traps in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane for a few years !

Jozvex
12-09-2004, 05:44 AM
Plus I am trying to convince a friend of mine to help rewrite them for some other comp apps lke ae and combustion.

Don't leave out Digital Fusion! Hehe, that's what I use obviously. Maybe Fusion 5 will have it built in? Though somehow I doubt it.


:)

Jozvex
12-09-2004, 06:45 AM
Please don't put me in a barrel and drop me out to sea for posting twice, I just hit reply instead of edit!

Anyway, a friend of mine who just got Max 7 says that along with the other misss shaders the misss_simple_occlusion seems to be included in the base shader package. He says it's not actually the misss_simple_occlussion but it's called misss_amb_occlussion and appears to be the original one with some little enhancements!

So hopefully Maya 6.5 will have them included in the base package too!

:thumbsup:

Aneks
12-09-2004, 07:13 AM
yep thats what Ive heard :


http://www.cg-academy.net/pages/free_tutorials/tut_ambient_occlusion_shader/tut_mentalray_ambientocclusion_shader.htm

Aneks
12-09-2004, 07:18 AM
to expand on the explanation he uses at the end of the article about using the bent normal output to 'warp' occlusion colour into an image in a comp programme. I beleive he is referring to an operation whereby you would be able to use the colour of the normal to discern the which part of your environment/ibl map is illuminating the object at that normal location and then apply the corresponding colour/intesity values or occlusion value as the case may be !!?!

J-Wicz
12-23-2004, 01:52 PM
Hi everyone.

I'm in the middle of picking up the whole occlusion workflow, with dirtmap and mix8layer.

I uploaded a screenshot of maya / hypershade
here (http://www.orangelab.de/tempphj/forumposts/mix8layout.jpg)

I wanted to ask if this is a good way to use dirtmap?

I plugged a surfaceshader in the 0 level, because I read in some theread that dirtmap runs a bit faster for occlusion pass with a surfaceshader. I sthis still true when I use mix8layer as acontainer?

layer 1 is the beauty, here just simple lamberts
layer 2 is the dirtmap in multiply blend mode and a factor of 25%
so I can use layer1+2 turned on for previewing in maya what I eventually will end up after compositing in photoshop or combustion.

layer 3 is the same dirtmap node but with a factor of 100%
I want to use this later for compositing together with layer1.

So what you think of this node layout? will I ran in any problems?

btw: sorry for the estetic quality of the rendering... it's really just a test

CrazyDamo
12-23-2004, 04:17 PM
ajsfuxor : there are a lot of Australians on CGTalk. Most are just learning/working from home but then again there are quite of few pros here too ! I am freelance vfx artist who has been wokring around the traps in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane for a few years !
Wow, lots of Aussies! And even a fellow Canberran!!! The odds of that. Thanks for everyone who has replied to this thread. I haven't checked it for a while now. I was working on a TV spot for a Car add (Suzuki). We were having problems with render time using FG as a dirt map pass and came across the occlusion shader in a desperate search. 'Cause there was no immediate answer/file we could grab, my art director bit the bullet and decided to go with rendering all 15 shots with FG instead....a hell of a long time on just 5 machines.

I would be very interested in finding out more about render times and if the overall look was the same using the Misss_simple_occ. I did come across a shader for Mental Ray on Highend 3D recently here's the link.. http://www.highend3d.com/maya/shaders/?group=mayashaders&section=&minl=50&maxl=50&numi=268&sort=file_name
called ctrl.irradiance for mentalray v1.3 (http://www.highend3d.com/files/dl.3d?group=mayashaders&file_loc=ctrl_irradiance_v1-v1.3-.3.rar&file_id=3172):
maybe this will help others...not sure.

For all those Aussies doing this kind of work back home.... want to hire an fellow Aussie artist who wants to come home? I think 4 years here in the UK is enough for me...I haven't seen the sun for so long I'm almost transparent. Mostly games exp. some Post.

cheers
Crazy D

J-Wicz
12-24-2004, 02:52 AM
Wow, lots of Aussies! I'm parttime Aussie right now. Writing my research thesis at UNSW, but will go back to Europe when finished in a few month.

a casual cheers
J-Wicz

deadplant155
03-08-2005, 07:20 PM
hi there. i've been searching everywhere for the miss_occlusion shader for days now, i have the more recent shader pack from the alias site. when i found this thread my heart lept! but then mr whitton's link 404'd me to death. my hopes were crushed in one fell swoop, please if anyone else has the older version of the shader pack or has that shader from maya6.5 or something please upload it. i can't say how frustrating this has been, please have mercy! thanks even if you don't. :)

-loren

Ultrasonic
03-08-2005, 07:46 PM
As far as I know it is INCLUDED with Maya 6.5!

deadplant155
03-08-2005, 08:20 PM
ya, that's what i've heard, that's why im asking for it from anyone with maya 6.5, i'm back at maya 6.0...with no prospect of upgrading in the near future. thanks again, i'll keep hoping someone wants to help poor little 'ol me...

Daniel Whitton
03-09-2005, 03:30 AM
deadplant155

Just give me your email and I'll send it you:)

Ultrasonic
03-09-2005, 07:48 AM
Have a look here -> http://www.alias.com/eng/community/downloads/bonus_tools/index_maya6.jhtml

Near the Bottom of the Site...

Ok...it's really not that easy to find if you don't know where to search ;)

Hope it helps

cya
Oliver

deadplant155
03-09-2005, 03:19 PM
thanks so much, i love you guys. :thumbsup:

-loren

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