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guardonduty
09-13-2004, 03:11 PM
Hey Guys:

I'm trying to decide f I should purchase Body Piant or Zbrush. I work with Lightwave and want to import work to Zbrush for Painting then returning to Lightwave for animation with Zbrush colors intact.

Frenchy Pilou
09-13-2004, 04:18 PM
...than in a forum about Zbrush nobody tell you to take BodyPaint :rolleyes:
More expensive, less powerful, less versatile, etc... :p
You have the spirit of kamikaze :twisted:

Ps Go on a forum about 3DMax and ask if it's better to buy Amapi as a modeler:D

Rabid pitbull
09-13-2004, 04:50 PM
Well I own both zbrush and bodypaint... as well as lightwave.:) I will tell you that they are different apps with different focus. If all you want to do is paint textures, then bodypaint will most likely be best. Of course zbrush offers other advantages. It is for sculpting detail into objects rather than painting it. Both of them offer projection painting which is very nice. But bodypaints painting tools are much more developed. I will tell you that if I had to go back and pick one knowing what I know, without a doubt I would pick zbrush, but not because of the painting. Zbrush is just in a class of its own and a joy to use!

I would say your best bet is to try the demo's.

pixolsoftware
09-14-2004, 12:59 AM
Hi guardonduty:

"I work with Lightwave and want to import work to Zbrush for Painting".....

Well, I think you answered your own question.

ZBrush has totally unique ways of adding detail and painting your characters - methods not found in any other application.

The thing you will find about ZBrush is that is truely allows you to focus on creative freedom by removing the technical hurdles present in other applications.

Regards,
Paul

aminuts
09-14-2004, 07:54 AM
If you are already using zbrush...why spend the cash for another app?

I think Projection master in zbrush is one of the most underused/underrated and best features of zbrush. Yeah it sucks you can't rotate and texture at the same time but you quickly learn to live and work around that....and it someways its better for that as well.

Take the time to play with materials and their settings etc and you won't be disappointed in your results in zbrush. Many have gone before you and there is a wealth of texturing information at ZBC if ya take the time to look.

pixolsoftware
09-14-2004, 09:11 AM
Yeah it sucks you can't rotate and texture at the same time but you quickly learn to live and work around that....and it someways its better for that as well.

Yes, this is true, but from what I have seen in other 3D paint applications such as BodyPaint and Deep Paint 3D, you need to 'drop' the object before using projection style painting - so that makes it no different to ZBrush in this aspect.

Regards,
Paul

Per-Anders
09-14-2004, 06:31 PM
that's incorrect. bodypaint has no "drop" before painting, projection or otherwise.

if you just want to texture something then get bodypaint. if you want to sculpt something get z-brush.

i own both and they each have their strengths and weaknesses, but for texturing bodypaint wins hands down.

first off, it has a complete uv editor in there, with many advanced features and controls. z-brush uving is primitive to say the least, but that' sok because that's not what it's designed for.

second bodypaint offers much more than just more complete brush technology in the image deparment. it has layers, alpha control, multi channel painting (i.e. paint bump, luminance, diffusion together or seperately), handles your channels correctly, i.e. try painting a bump map in z-brush. has projection transform tools that z-brush doesn't have, has raybrush for realtime raytraced painting if you wish.

and thirdly it has a direct bridge between lightwave and bodypaint.

of couse it also has other advantages in this area, stability, advanced lighting control, imo better viewport navigation, configurability and customisation (see the sticky thread in c4d for new users faq, bodypaint is essentially c4d without modeling and animation).

now if you want to do modeling then z-brush is the way to go every time. bodypaint offers no "interactive displacement painting". z-brush does this in it's sleep. z-brush can handle far higher poly counts with ease, it has it's own texturing tools built right in and some really unique tools that nothing else can touch. it can generate normal and displacement maps for difference between high and low res models which is something bodypaint can't do.

so simple

z-brush=modeling/detailing
bodypaint=texturing/uving

celmar
09-14-2004, 07:14 PM
just to add a little thing: I own the two soft, z and body paint, and a complete and heavy mesh from zspheres is going to crash bodypaint... I agree on the fact that there are more options to texture on body paint, but it's not optimized for heavy object... the main problem seems to me that using 3d painter, there is a little lost of definition... something slightly fuzzie, even with a texture of 4096... but maybe there is tips...?

Per-Anders
09-14-2004, 09:25 PM
fuzzyness is all about the uv's and resolution. the more area they get on the canvas each the better, and of course the higher the resolution. 4096 frequently isn't enough for a whole model. so instead (and this is another strength of bodypaint, painting accross multiple materials/textures at once) you use seperate textures on different areas.

overall i'm surprised you've had bp crash on you ith a high res mesh. i've been able to import >10 million poly scenes before and most things i do in z-brush never get above 1 or 2 million :shrug: also in this case, he's not looking for a bridge from z-brush, but from lightwave. so the models are most likely going to be considerably lower. bp ogl is faster than lw in my expereience, and should have no problem when dealing with the same number of polys that lw can handle. of course uv'ing such a high res model is going to be painful, unless you're happy with the various automatic uv mapping systems and their results.

ambient-whisper
09-14-2004, 09:52 PM
i love zbrush but i gotta agree with mdme sadie on the texturing side. its a subject that hasnt really been fully expanded in zbrush yet.

however i feel that the navigation in zbrush is just as good as in bodypaint. if not better. especially since you can snap to views while navigating on the fly, and use local mode to make the object(camera) automatically rotate around last edited point. umongst other subtle details.
all it needs in viewport is better perspective support.

celmar
09-14-2004, 10:18 PM
you're right, sadie, it was mostly the huge amount of time to do the uv process I was thinking... on the fuzzy side, I don't know exactly: more and more , I translate z tools in nurbs, and "cut" them in parts to texture them on planar mode... most of the time, because I'm not able to paint on a distort surface,and understand better little planes side by side; a face would become 3 planar surfaces,like that, and I found that more easy... but BP is a great tool, too... I was thinking that auv tiles was a good texture map? I really, when using them, have few, if no, distorsions...,

aminuts
09-15-2004, 07:28 AM
I haven't had the luxury of using bp but I find that painting bumps is no biggie in zbrush. Yeah it has it's limits but it also has way more than folks realize at the moment. And some serious documentation on that aspect of Zbrush would go along way in furthering it's usefulness for sure!

Marcel, I love the guvtiles but I only use them for absolute final texturing because you can't play with em in a 2d app. I'll map my subjects in another app for detailing etc then convert it to guv for final coloring etc.

I do wish zbrush had a better way of dealing with uv's...a built in uv mapper would be excellent but that is probably one of the reason zbrush folks opened the doors to plugins from third parties....so once the sdk is released....I am hoping someone picks that ball up and runs with it!!

celmar
09-15-2004, 08:31 AM
about that question of texturing, one thing always vurious for me is that I always found that the texturing in pixols is more definite, and saturated in color... oh, it's near, in fact, but I'm always more happy with the coloring in pixols, than in projected color on 3d... here on the left the 3d texture, in 4096, and on the left a part of the scene in pixols... I know, it's not exactly the same angle, and light... just to show what I mean...

Frenchy Pilou
09-15-2004, 09:44 AM
Paul Meurisse in "le Monocle rit jaune" (Scenario) (http://lescinevores.chez.tiscali.fr/critique.php?page=monocle.html) :rolleyes:
Picture (http://www.aubonticket.com/v3/?action=affImage&production=Cocinor.&id=20373&table=films&num=0) :D

BazC
09-15-2004, 10:09 AM
Wonderful work Celmar!

pixolsoftware
09-15-2004, 11:09 AM
that's incorrect. bodypaint has no "drop" before painting, projection or otherwise.

Happy to stand corrected on that one regarding Body Paint - I do believe though that Deep Paint 3D the object needs to be dropped to do projection painting.

Not that 'dropping' is a major issue or anything.....

Anyone want to confirm / deny that?


Regards,
Paul

R10k
09-15-2004, 05:20 PM
As far as I'm aware, there is projection in Bodypaint 3D. Taken from Maxon's website...

"BodyPaint 3D's Projection Painting tool makes distortion-free painting a snap."

Anyway, the problem with Zbrush's projection is that, even with a good set uf UVs, sharp-edged/angled objects (especially complex ones) really don't paint so well. In fact, they really don't work at all, and you need something like BP3D or DP3D to paint them.

guardonduty
09-15-2004, 05:30 PM
Hello All:

Must say I appreciate the honesty and experience represented here. I wam going to download the demo version of Zbrush. I just can't get over the "absolutely stunning and recognizable" look that it produces. However, my initial question was the ability to export to Zbrush and then import back into Lightwave for animation with texturing, colors, etc produced in Zbrush.

StephanD
09-15-2004, 06:13 PM
Yes you can save color information out of Zbrush into an image file.

Joebount
09-16-2004, 04:04 AM
umongst other subtle details.
all it needs in viewport is better perspective support.
Nope, all it needs a perspective mode, not an orthogonal view ;)

guardonduty
10-09-2004, 05:56 PM
"........By going native, Bay is able to model and texture entirely within ZBrush without bringing Photoshop or BodyPaint into the process...."


http://www.cgnetworks.com/story_custom.php?story_id=2463&page

ambient-whisper
10-09-2004, 10:11 PM
"........By going native, Bay is able to model and texture entirely within ZBrush without bringing Photoshop or BodyPaint into the process...."


http://www.cgnetworks.com/story_custom.php?story_id=2463&pageyes but even bay will agree with me when i say that at the moment zbrush isnt the best applicaton for texturing as a whole. its got way too many things missing for it to be too useful for big detailed textures that will be used elsewhere.

i think i mentioned it before. but not having a brush preset menu is a HUGE minus.
not being able to see multiple textures per model is a very huge minus.
not being able to have multiple textures stored accross multiple models is even a bigger minus.
not having a PROPER and simple texture reveal brush is a biggie too. at the moment pixologic keeps making too many gimmicky brushes. the deco brush is cool for some stuff, but it doesnt fill in for a texture reveal brush. neither does the roller brush.

list goes on and on.

i do believe this will be worked on in the not so distant future, as i heard that the weta guys will want to use zb on king kong for texturing. ( probably because all other applications cant handle texturing on the huge model sizes that zbrush can. ) i have faith pixologic will do the right thing.

Matt
10-10-2004, 09:21 PM
...than in a forum about Zbrush nobody tell you to take BodyPaint :rolleyes:
More expensive, less powerful, less versatile, etc... :p
You have the spirit of kamikaze :twisted:

Ps Go on a forum about 3DMax and ask if it's better to buy Amapi as a modeler:D


I'm a fan of projectionmaster like most here, but in Body Paint you can freely rotate the model while you paint. No need to drop or pick up the texture.

aminuts
10-11-2004, 05:15 AM
rotating and texturing would be cool in zbrush but stop and drop forces you to think about it. Specially when doing deformations. But I am impulsive by nature and anything that stops me and makes me consider what I am doing is a plus!

chadtheartist
10-11-2004, 11:49 AM
"........By going native, Bay is able to model and texture entirely within ZBrush without bringing Photoshop or BodyPaint into the process...."


http://www.cgnetworks.com/story_custom.php?story_id=2463&page
This will work for organic texturing. But what if you want to paint a straight line, or weave them? How about text? Both of them are very hard to do in Zbrush, and are essential to the texturing process.

As much as I like modeling in Zbrush, I really don't like how the texturing process works. There are too many hurdles to have to work around, like was previously mentioned. IMO, Zbrush needs to support multilple texture maps on one model, it needs to have better control of it's materials/shaders per model, and I would like to see some traditional style UV layout features in it too.

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