outputting to TV fields problem

[jwmoebius]

Hello Zon,
I assume you mean PAL-DV (and not DVD), which isn't the best format for 3D Animation anyway, since it's a pretty strong compressed format. What are you watching your test renders on? A TV or a computer monitor? Interlaced footage only looks good on TV's since that's what they are made for. It will always look bad on a Computer Monitor. If you render your sequence with DV-PAL compression, 25fpsi, 720x576, lower field first (so the NLE doesn't have to convert anything) it should look okay on a TV, even with DV compression.
Hope this helps!

[zon]

Hi jwmoebius,

Thanks for the reply! My video editor has a project setting called dvd-pal which sets up the template at 25fps, mpeg, 720 x576 field order A, etc. But I would imagine it amounts to the same thing.

I am creating a dvd-rw and playing it onto my TV (not monitor) It looks great on the monitor! Aweful on the TV!

What compression would you suggest?

In honesty I'm not sure its a compression problem as the quality of the over all image is fine, its just the edges of the characters that are proving to be problematic when in motion. I'm lost as to why!

Thanks again jwmoebius, any more help would be treated as gold!

Zon

[jwmoebius]

Zon,
If it's an issue with the field order you'd have a strong strobe effect and no fluid motion in your clips ...
I don't know your editing software or how it makes the mpg2 files. Mpg compression is very crucial, it takes a fast computer about 8 times the clip length to compress video in high quality mpg2, so if your software lets you edit in mpg2 I assume the compression isn't all that great. Are there any settings on how files are compressed? Usually in mpg2 compression you get to choose from cbr (constant bit rate) or vbr (variable bitrate), you get to choose the quality of motion detection and the average bitrate. Also sometimes encoders have a problem detecting the field order in the original footage. What format are you exporting from lightwave?
The way I'd do it is to export from lightwave with animation codec with lower field first, edit in some other format than mpg2 and then convert it to mpg2 in an encoding program such as Tmpegenc or Canopus Procoder (where you make sure to select 2-pass vbr, 7000-8000 MBit/s, high quality motion detection, lower field first)

... but then again, maybe mpg2 compression isn't the problem ... :shrug:
hope this helps,
jwm

[zon]

jwmoebius,

The test scene is as simple as can be! Just a single character waving his arms a bit against a test colour background.
The project setttings for pal-dvd in my editor use mpeg02 at variable (max: 6000kbps) The lightwave format is simply jpeg for now, although ultimatly I will be compositing using png32.
Lower field first...is this odd first in lightwave? Does lower field correspond to field A in my editor? (sorry to be dim but I am still unsure as to what is what..getting ever more unsure actually!)

To be honest..I didnt really expect this process to be quite so convoluted and complicated! Isnt there just a really straight forward method of rendering from lightwave in the correct field- inputting it into an editor, setting the field for that and rendering the thing to dvd? If I were making Lord of the Rings i could understand it! Isnt life too short?

Zon.

Should I try a different method of compression completely? Quicktime etc?

[jwmoebius]

Zon,
it's usually called lower/even or upper/odd field. I don't know what field A means but there's a lot of stuff about this matter that I don't know ... So you want to select even fields in lightwave. Are you outputting a series of jpg frames from lightwave or a movie clip (avi or whatever) with photo jpg compression? I guess the latter, but just to make sure ...

[zon]

Thanks JW

I'm outputting jpeg single frames for the tests! I shall remember lower=even and upper=odd...in fact i'll probably be dreaming about it for the next week!
Zon

[jwmoebius]

Maybe you should try to export a quicktime or avi. Maybe the single frames are causing the problem.

[zon]

I'll try that, thanks

[djx]

It seems that everyones setup is different, so I thought I would share mine - not wishing to confuse matters (although I probably will). I regularly work with fields in a PAL broadcast environment, 25fps, 720x576, and I have recently been burning showreels to DVD (mpeg2), so maybe this will be relevant.

For me upper-field or field-zero is the even field and this comes first. (The only exception to this is footage captured from miniDV cam which is lower (or odd) field first.) I render to fields using maya (in TIFF format) and if I get the field dominance wrong it shows up as noticeable jittering movement - an object moving from left to right will take 1 step forward, and half a step back in each successive field. You cant see this on a non-interlaced computer monitor, so I dont see it until I lay it out to tape.

When I import interlaced footage into aftereffects I interpret it as field-separated with upper field first. When I render out of after effects (usually to uncompressed AVI) I turn on field rendering, with upper field first.

I have never rendered to jpeg frames, but I would think that this is not a good idea if you are after quality images. JPEG compression divides the image into blocks and throws away information you wont notice so much. With an interlaced picture, the compression will suddenly become much more noticeable along the edges of moving objects. Later when you recompress (transcode) to mpeg2 (for DVD burning) you will introduce even more degrading of the image.

You would be better off rendering to a lossless format such as TIFF or TGA (from your 3d app) or to uncompressed AVI fro your NLE.

As others have already mentioned, the mpeg2 encoding is the difficult part. Different programs have vastly different ways of achieving this. Some do a better job than others. I havent used MediaStudioPro, but I would suggest experimenting with the different settings to see if some combination works better than others.

[jwmoebius]

You couldn't really confuse me more than I already am so thanks for your knowledge. I work almost exclusively with DV footage, along with 3D stuff, comps and images which all go to DV format sooner or later so I'm used to using lower field first. I don't understand the even/odd thing, though. Different software seems to have different ideas on what corresponds to what ... I see different cominations of lower/odd/even/upper in different softwares so maybe someone here has the knowledge to explain this to me ...
Thanks!

[zon]

thanks djx, your contribution is very welcome, I am still struggling with this having just about worn out all combinations and then some! I am still getting really terrible edges seemingly regardless of settings. I really did not realise that this would be quite so complicated and am starting to loath the whole thing. Perhaps I'll quit animating and create a nice book of it instead...!? Zon

[BrianHarbauer]

Yo, the prob with the jittery lookingness isn't so much with the fields as it is with your frame rate. Unless you have a PAL television, it WILL LOOK BAD. that's why it looks good on the monitor and not on tv. If you can, render your stuff to NTSC 720x480 lower field first, 29.97 fps.


See, tv's are 60hz, and video is 30fps timecode. Video is interlaced, (lower field first) So, since video is interlace, you see half of one picture in one frame, and the second part of the picture in the next frame, which gives the illusion of 60fps which works PERFECT with the 60 hz. Sooo, with that in mind, if you play a dvd that's in 25fps on your tv you will have problems.

Now you'll notice there's this thing called 3:2 pull down. This is only on certain dvd players and will correct your problem if the frame rate is 24fps, but not at 25fps.

If you have a REALLY NICE dvd player, it will do both Pal and NTSC.

So basically, unless you need to do PAL for some reason, stick with NTSC and you won't have any problems, becuase NTSC is the standard. Hope i makes sense. Maybe i'll make a "tutorial" on why sometime.... any questions on this let me know!http://www.cgtalk.com/images/icons/icon13.gif
Basicly try rendering in ntsc out from light wave at NTSC 720x480 lower field first, 29.97 fps and encode you DVD to the same standard and your problems shoud be GONE!

Good luck! let me know how it goes!http://www.cgtalk.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[high1memo]

hi all, dunno if this thread is still active, i have this problem too and am wondering about a solution.

Firstly I wanna quickly reply to the post about doing it in NTSC. DUnno if thats a joke or not :) but NTSC is only the standard in America and Japan and a few other countries. Most of Europe (and Asia and Africa) use PAL. Doing it in NTSC would not solve the problem.

Ive been experimenting with these fields but havent found the exact solution. Especially when a lot of editing/post work is involved. I am wondering whether the whole process should be done interlaced? or can it be done at the last minute?

e.g.
1. render and export from 3dsmax as seq of TGAs
2. edit in premiere or vegas and export as seq of TGAs
3. do post in combustion and export as seq of TGAs
4. convert to mpeg2 with tmpeg or dvd architect etc.

now what im wondering is, do i need to export every step as interlaced? (i.e. export from max interlaced, export from premiere interlaced etc.) or can i juz do it at the last step while encoding the mpeg2? or do i need to export interlaced from my last export (i.e. in this case the post step in combustion). The first one would be a great pain cos if i wanted to change what i export to (tv or pc etc.) id have to rerender every step! which is surely unnessecary!!!

anyways, anyone with any experience in this field, any suggestions would be appreciated,

cheers,

[bythebeach]

For DVD Pal, field order setting that works for me for viewing on TV in MediaStudio Pro is
field order B (Top Field First)

[Tuqui-tuqui]

... If you have a REALLY NICE dvd player, it will do both Pal and NTSC.

So basically, unless you need to do PAL for some reason, stick with NTSC and you won't have any problems, becuase NTSC is the standard...[/img]

Unfortunately, not everyone has NTSC/PAL DVD players... it might be the standard now, but it wasnt a few years ago when everyone started buying their DVD players and they were exclusive to their region.

I work solely with live footage, so everytime we know we have to make a PAL tape from a NTSC source, we either run the field tape through a multisystem converter or bring it into the non-linear editor and convert to PAL using plug-ins. After that we either make a DVD or output to a PAL VTR.

[Rainer K]

Ok so i'm working with a mixture of lower field material captured from Mini-DV and no field TGA sequences rendered from 3ds-max or combustion.

I'm using Sony Vegas, I then output as an PAL DV Avi, and import into Encore and then burn to DVD. Encore is doing my encoding to mpeg in this case.


Question.... Given that my editing process is comprising of lower field footage and no-field animation, what should i be outputting from Vegas in?

And thus...do i lose quality if i import no-field footage into a lower field project? (or other combination of such)?


cheers.

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