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View Full Version : Game Art Mini Challenge #2 - Gate to a Tomb


Dargon
09-06-2004, 10:04 AM
THEME: Create the gate to a tomb, under PS2 restrictions

Welcome to the 2nd mini challenge! This time we're going to tackle something everybody can join in on, and many really should join in on, an environmental set piece. The challenge, to model a gate, or impressive doorway, to a tomb (burial chamber, catacomb, crypt, mausoleum). The style of the game, cartoony, realistic, illustrative, is up to you, but you have to state the style you're going for. That's just so if you say realistic, and it looks cartoony, you'll get appropriate critiques.

RULES/GUIDELINES:

Your mesh must be no more than 600 triangles. The trick is going to be to make it look special mostly with the textures. You can include some of the wall if you want, but all you really have to create is the gate itself, inlcluding what it immediatly connects to.

We want to keep this simple, so we'll assume whatever the game is you're working on, your company wants to squeeze in as many AI as possible. So you get 1 128x128 bmp, and 2 64x64 tga's (with alpha channels), and that's it!

HINT: Tile your textures, and re-use them as much as you can. Clever UVing is going to be the key to this one.

You can post a concept sketch, but you don't have to. If you want to post a concept sketch before submitting your finished work, do so in your WIP thread.

Post your finished pics in the Final Submissions thread, whenever you finish them. Only one post per entry, but you can enter many times if you wish. Feel free to add comments about others work, but as for questions, please PM me, so we can keep this fairly clean (I'll edit this post if the question warrants it). You may make a WIP thread if you wish, but you don't have to.
Posted pics must be no larger than 640x480, or 480x640. You can have larger images if you put a link to them with a thumbnail.

For any submissions, you must include the following:

Screenshot of the mesh without maps, wireframe showing

Screenshot or render of Base mesh with textures applied

Triangle count of base mesh



Which Software(s) you used


This challenge starts right now, and ends on October 17th. That gives you a little under a month and a half, to find time for this, but really it shouldn't take more than a day or 2, that's the point of a mini challenge.

The main challenge will continue to happen as usual, simutaneously with this one, so if you want to enter the main competition, I suggest finishing this one up while we wait for all the votes to be in, and the winner picks the next subject manner.

WIP (work in progress) threads should be labelled as "Mini Challenge #2 - (your user name)". For example, mine would be labelled:

Mini Challenge #2 - Dargon


We need judges! PM me if you're interested in doffing the cap. I'll edit this post as the judges come in.

Judges so far:

Dargon
Supervlieg
Prs-Phil
Artbot

This challenge will be mirrored much like the last one at gaming artist. The prize will be announced if one exists, when I know the details. Check here for details.

Check out the mirrored comp HERE (http://www.gamingartist.com/viewforum.php?f=47).

For help on Vertex Lighting go HERE (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=168514).

Supervlieg
09-06-2004, 11:01 AM
Hey just in case I dont make it in time I'd like to volunteer to pass some judgement around here.

The-Observer
09-06-2004, 10:09 PM
Great challenge, I love how you came up with an original concept. I'll start sketching some concepts tomorrow or so, cause I'm in!:D

SheepFactory
09-07-2004, 12:31 AM
i was gonna try but i think i am blind after reading all that bright green text :D

erilaz
09-07-2004, 12:50 AM
So just to clarify... the gate and it's connections (ie hinges etc) is 600 tris? Or if we make a wall section for the gate to be in is that included in the final count?

Dargon
09-07-2004, 01:41 AM
i was gonna try but i think i am blind after reading all that bright green text :D
Fair enough ;)

So just to clarify... the gate and it's connections (ie hinges etc) is 600 tris? Or if we make a wall section for the gate to be in is that included in the final count?
600 tris whether you add a bit of wall or not. Really what I had in mind was the archway that the tomb gate is attached to, but if you have something really complex in mind, poly wise, just having the door itself would be OK. Much like actual environment modelling, the trick is to make the most out of what you have to work with.

If you were to imagine that you've designed this to work within the poly budgets, and you put the whole 600 into the door itself, you'd be pretty much limiting yourself to a hole in the wall to put it in. If you want a more grandiose setting for the door, incorporate it into the design.

erilaz
09-07-2004, 01:46 AM
Fair enough ;)


600 tris whether you add a bit of wall or not.


If you want a more grandiose setting for the door, incorporate it into the design.
Splendid! Just making sure I had the spec right.:D

Tad
09-07-2004, 02:39 AM
just a note,
the technical limitations on this one seem a bit harsh for todays game engines..

ZeroNeuro
09-07-2004, 03:40 AM
Ok, I'll bite ;)

Model:
http://www.zeroneuro.com/Fantasy/tomb/tomb-mesh.jpg
havent done the uv's yet. (oh its maya btw)

phoenix
09-07-2004, 05:08 AM
i am in for it...

Hey can anyone enlighten me on PS2 limitations :D .. thanks

StickFigure
09-07-2004, 05:14 AM
just a note,
the technical limitations on this one seem a bit harsh for todays game engines..
Seems pretty reasonable to me. The PS2 hardware hasn't gotten any better in the past 4 or 5 years, so you can't really consider it one of todays game engines.

hanzo
09-07-2004, 05:21 AM
I love the idea, but I think that the specs are even a little low for the PS2, I mean I can tell that just by playing Devil May Cry, Final Fantasy X, etc etc etc... but that doesn't matter much, I will participate in this challenge in any case...

shalom3d
09-07-2004, 05:31 AM
hi great i wanna join how do i entre do i need to fill out a forum or what are the steps i never entred a mini contest

pogonip
09-07-2004, 05:34 AM
Just my opinion but pretty lame challenge ...how come it's never something like ( Dragon Rider )..... gate to a tomb ??? ...:sad: ..and the specs ? I think most people look to put challenge pieces in there portfolio but this does not come off as a good portfolio piece ..anyways

bentllama
09-07-2004, 05:50 AM
Just my opinion but pretty lame challenge ...how come it's never something like ( Dragon Rider )..... gate to a tomb ??? ...:sad: ..and the specs ? I think most people look to put challenge pieces in there portfolio but this does not come off as a good portfolio piece ..anyways



prove us wrong.

pogonip
09-07-2004, 05:53 AM
prove us wrong.
HUH ???????????????????? :shrug: You mean make a really cool Gate to a Tomb ? Wha whaa ?? No speaky ?

Pyke
09-07-2004, 06:01 AM
Niiiiiiiiiiiice challenge.
Im not a low poly modeler at all-but I may just delve into here. ;)

pogonip-if people need other peoples idea's to create their portfolio... :shrug:

-c-

Bigglzee
09-07-2004, 06:04 AM
It is a CHALLENGE, therefore we are CHALLENGING purselves to make a small peice to these specs, and anyway, if we want to develop for the PS2 well need these skills....

pogonip
09-07-2004, 06:07 AM
Niiiiiiiiiiiice challenge.

pogonip-if people need other peoples idea's to create their portfolio... :shrug:

-c-
Ehhh... well everything takes time so if someone works on this then they take time away from something else im not saying I need a challenge because im out of ideas ..like I said just my opinion because I would like to take part in a challenge . The mods can delete my posts if they are a distraction :shrug:

DigDoug
09-07-2004, 06:16 AM
Sounds cool, I'm in.

StickFigure
09-07-2004, 06:30 AM
Ehhh... well everything takes time so if someone works on this then they take time away from something else The point is that this challenge doesn't take much time at all. There are a lot of us here that would love to enter some of the bigger challenges, but we are so caught up with work and other projects that we just don't have the time to invest in doing them. I'll probably enter this one just cause I can take a break from everything else for an evening or two and do something different.

noon
09-07-2004, 06:38 AM
ZeroNeuro :
Seeing your image I was wondering why you added all those faces on the top. (see the modified image). Is is to make deformations, or because PS2 is not able to tile texture without spliting the mesh ? I think that engines like renderware split the mesh during a PS2 export if the UVs are outside of [0,1].

If it is true, which I'm not sure, it makes a lot of differences on the faces number if someone tile his texture without adding faces.

Tad
09-07-2004, 06:53 AM
Seems pretty reasonable to me. The PS2 hardware hasn't gotten any better in the past 4 or 5 years, so you can't really consider it one of todays game engines.
yeah but the software has,

terraarc
09-07-2004, 07:00 AM
I loved the idea from the moment it came up yesterday. Actually I've already concepted out 2 Gates and modelled 1, hopefully heading for the texture today.....

Nice Idea Dargon!!:thumbsup:

Good start to everyone, happy brainstorming! :)

Bigglzee
09-07-2004, 07:00 AM
Well I started on mine and Im having trouble reaching 600 tris without going to overboard on the gate theme...

All the little planes will be alpha mapped grass. I will be putting the dirt textures for the base on the 128x128 as well as the portal, the grass and steps will be put on a 64x64, and on the other one I will put the rock for the structures and spikes.

Dang, even when Im making things for RTS games I dont have this sort of limitation :P

452 Tris;

http://img41.exs.cx/img41/4996/tdp1.jpg

Ter-o
09-07-2004, 07:20 AM
What's the deal with the 128x128 _bmp_? Why .bmp? Even when the other 2 textures are .tga, I don't see a point here :) Could someone explain me why it should be .bmp?

dkm_fr
09-07-2004, 08:11 AM
600 polys is definitely very harsh. Today's games can deal with many more polys, even on Ps2. Currently working on a ps2 title, I guess I know what I'm talking about :)
Anyway, I might enter the challenge just for fun, but I still think a higher limit would have been more than welcome ;)

Supervlieg
09-07-2004, 08:19 AM
Just a quick question... (multiple questions actually)

Will the gate have to be visible from all angles? If for example the main character isnt that long and there isn't a cutscene camera or whatever thats high up in the air, you can delete some unseen polies from the top and use them elsewhere. Whats the way to go with this one.

How about rendering? Is a shadowmap allowed or do we get to submit a GI lighted final render?
Is the a seperate alpha map for the bmp allowed as well?

Phase1: While one 128 bmp is smallish (dont forget the two tga's) Its usually all you get for a standard game prop that isn't a big feature in the game. Learning to work with limitations is what its about most of the time in video game art. I dont think it matters that much for this comp, I guess you could change it into a tif or whatever you like. But I guess the final word on that is with Dargon.

Prs-Phil
09-07-2004, 09:31 AM
:)

Count me in as judge.

Nice, quick challenge with low specs, really looking forward to what you make of it.

Hexodam
09-07-2004, 09:57 AM
by the bitmap I think they mean one normal texture, as in a 128x128 texture with no alpha (any format since its easy to convert anyway), the two 64x64 textures are tga because tga has alpha, I guess we could also use any texture format that has alpha... after all easy to convert :)

But hell, I'm in, sounds like fun and I havent done any texture work in a loooong time now

Dargon
09-07-2004, 10:02 AM
Hey great! Lots of response! Sorry about the time differences, all your questions came while I was asleep! Now I'll make an attempt to answer what I can, and if I miss you, PM me.


hi great i wanna join how do i entre do i need to fill out a forum or what are the steps i never entred a mini contest

No form, no hard set rules. This isn't an official comp, so no worries. All you have to do is post your final, in this thread. If you want, you can create a thread in the Unofficial Game Art Challenges forum to show your work in progress.


Just my opinion but pretty lame challenge ...how come it's never something like ( Dragon Rider )..... gate to a tomb ??? ...:sad: ..and the specs ? I think most people look to put challenge pieces in there portfolio but this does not come off as a good portfolio piece ..anyways

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. There are often things like Dragon Rider in the main competition. This is a mini comp designed to make you stretch yourself as an artist, and take a small challenge to do something new. Most people who apply for environment art positions without experience, tend not to have any environment art in their portfolio. I want to give people the advantage of having some, if not by this competition, then at least by inspiration.


just a note,
the technical limitations on this one seem a bit harsh for todays game engines..

Nope. I've just finished making a PS2 title, working on environment art, and I've been generous. You have to remember the PS2 is underpowered in comparison to other formats. It's also a manner of the brief, we're trying to make a game that has some AI and emmersive environments. There's room for multiple 256's on a game with 2 characters on the screen, but the majority of games are going to be using counts of this, or lower. Actual count in our game would've been 2 64's for colour, and 1 alpha, with about 300 tris. Try this out, push your imagination, figure out ways to push the limitations beyond what they should be able to do.


...or because PS2 is not able to tile texture without spliting the mesh ? I think that engines like renderware split the mesh during a PS2 export if the UVs are outside of [0,1].

PS2 has no problem with going over the 0, 1 coordinates. To give you an idea, our game engine didn't like over 8x8 repeats, but I'm not going to hold you to that, it's just too technical.

What's the deal with the 128x128 _bmp_? Why .bmp? Even when the other 2 textures are .tga, I don't see a point here :) Could someone explain me why it should be .bmp?
We use .bmp because it can be indexed quite easily. Without indexing, it is a lossless format. I'm suggesting it because we use it, and because it can't support an alpha channel, not for transparency, or bump or anything. The various 3d softwares seem to not have any problems with .bmp either. .tiffs can sometimes cause problems, and some hardware shading has trouble with .tgas. Bitmaps are safe.


Just a quick question... (multiple questions actually)

Will the gate have to be visible from all angles? If for example the main character isnt that long and there isn't a cutscene camera or whatever thats high up in the air, you can delete some unseen polies from the top and use them elsewhere. Whats the way to go with this one.

How about rendering? Is a shadowmap allowed or do we get to submit a GI lighted final render?
Is the a seperate alpha map for the bmp allowed as well?


1. Up to you. Decide what's needed for your gate. I think you could easily assume that if you don't see it, don't add it. I think in the case of what Bigglzee showed, you'd want to keep the top faces, in case you saw it from a cliff face or something, but if it was in a tunnel, you certainly wouldn't need them.

2. Shadowmap, no. Prelighting yes. For people who don't know about prelighting, the engine will store a colour value per vertex, which can look like proper lighting. If you want sharper shadows, you could cut them in, or you could be clever with your tgas....

Also, remember that mental ray can be used to do prelighting. So you can get nice GI in game environments...

Make a beauty render if you want with the trimmings (no reflection, bump or spec though) if you wish, but you must show the model in a basic form as well.

If it's of interest to anyone, I'll post a tutorial on how to prelight using Maya.

Count me in as judge.

Great!

Supervlieg
09-07-2004, 10:57 AM
So no alpha for the bitmap right?

Dargon
09-07-2004, 11:09 AM
Right. No alpha.

SaucyJack
09-07-2004, 11:36 AM
Could we be naughty and split the 128 into 4?

Hexodam
09-07-2004, 11:36 AM
when you say prelight tutorial for maya do you mean mental ray? ( dont remember what maya uses )

I'm a max user so a general mental ray prelight tutorial would be great, no idea how to do it:)

Dargon
09-07-2004, 11:49 AM
Could we be naughty and split the 128 into 4?
Um, not exactly. If you want to tile different textures on the same 128, you'll have to be clever on how you split up the mesh, and how you lay out the textures on your map. (I suggest putting tileable sections all the way across one side, for example, so that there's a part you wouldn't have to split if you tiled)


when you say prelight tutorial for maya do you mean mental ray? ( dont remember what maya uses )

I'm a max user so a general mental ray prelight tutorial would be great, no idea how to do it:)

I was thinking about a more specific tutorial to Maya, which would include the Mental ray way. There might be a bit in there that would be software unspecific...

If anyone wants to volunteer a Max or XSI or whatever prelighting tutorial, that'd be cool too!

We'll see how that goes, I'll look into it this evening.

DustinBrown
09-07-2004, 04:45 PM
Im trying to learn more about creating content for games. Based on what was said in the original post, concerning the specs, it seems as though standards such as those for the PS2 give you a cap on the ammount of memory the game can consume. Im also going to assume that AI's are artificial intelligences, which controll things like your enemies reactions as well as dynamics (batmans's cape). I dont know, Im just making presumptions. How can I find out what the current engines are and what their standards are?

Thanks,
Dustin Brown

~0~Roidy~0~
09-07-2004, 06:33 PM
OK this challenge is as good as any to get my feet wet. This is my first attempt at low poly work. Hell I only got LW8 4 days ago.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/roidy.parnell/Gate001.jpg

Um.. Just messing around I guess.

johweedee
09-07-2004, 06:44 PM
dargon, i am definately interested in such a tutorial. i don't know if i will have time to do this challenge, but i'd love a tutorial. i like the idea of this one, definately sounds reasonable to me, and fun! :bounce:

Vertizor
09-07-2004, 07:13 PM
If you have a sick sense of humor like I do you'll understand this pic. It's not my official entry, I just did it for fun and it made me smile when the idea popped into my head.

It's suppose to be those heavy metal cellar doors found in older houses.

http://www.ly-tech.com/img/tomb.jpg

loner86
09-07-2004, 07:33 PM
This mini challenge looks like it will be a lot of fun. I haven't posted any of my works or entered any of the competitions here but I think I will try to enter this one.

Good luck to eveyone.

hanzo
09-07-2004, 08:23 PM
pogonip: not only that, but, why do? any work that you wouldn't want to put in a portfolio..

White Zulu: ( haha ) I have to say most of the time as a working professional, I would imagine that you had to work with other peoples ideas a lot, so it is good practice to place work from challenges in a portfolio. or even from other people concepts, hints the use of concept artists wouldn't you think?

every body doing wip, great progress.. ;)

polygoo.com
09-07-2004, 09:13 PM
:wise: :eek: :applause: :hmm: :argh:

Supervlieg
09-07-2004, 09:43 PM
Polygoo: How about starting your own wip thread. Dont swamp this one with lots of pics, It'll get messy. (hell, its messy now)

Edit you post please, otherwise everyone might start doing this.

I'll reserve the c&c for your thread then ;)

Dargon
09-07-2004, 09:52 PM
Polygoo: How about starting your own wip thread. Dont swamp this one with lots of pics, It'll get messy. (hell, its messy now)

Edit you post please, otherwise everyone might start doing this.

I'll reserve the c&c for your thread then ;)
I agree, it did get messy quick. :D

I think in a day or 2 I'll open up a final's thread. Until then, get those WIP threads a goin'!!

Supervlieg
09-07-2004, 10:11 PM
Cheers polygoo :beer:

Hexodam
09-07-2004, 10:25 PM
one question

when modeling game models do they have to be one mesh or can they be a combination of a few meshes?

DigDoug
09-07-2004, 10:33 PM
There isn't really one right way to do it. You could probably save polys in some instances by having different meshes. Just depends on what you are doing.

Hexodam
09-07-2004, 10:41 PM
ah ok good to know,

what is this vertex lighting for creating shadows some people talk about?

Monkeybot
09-07-2004, 10:52 PM
If it's of interest to anyone, I'll post a tutorial on how to prelight using Maya.


Great!Being new to 3D and a Maya user I would really apreciate this!!! Thanks in advance!

polygoo.com
09-08-2004, 12:48 AM
you too Supervlieg :thumbsup: I figured that the topic would get too crowded.. didnt find the time to repost yet but will soon.

penance
09-08-2004, 02:29 AM
Hi, All
I was just wondering, how could i post my finished render to enter the competition?
there is a text here saying that i could not post attachments.. :sad:
thanks for the reply
cheers
H.A. :thumbsup:

penance
09-08-2004, 02:40 AM
Hi All :applause:
i was just wondering how do i put my renders on this thread to enter this mini challenge?
i have a text saying here that i could not post attachments.. :sad:
thanks for any replies!
cheers
H.A.

Supervlieg
09-08-2004, 07:38 AM
what is this vertex lighting for creating shadows some people talk about?
You can paint on your own shadowing by using vertex paint. The models will be unlit because basically you paint the light/shadow on there.

you too Supervlieg :thumbsup: I figured that the topic would get too crowded.. didnt find the time to repost yet but will soon.
Cool, still have some c&c lined up for you when you have the thread.

I was just wondering, how could i post my finished render to enter the competition?
there is a text here saying that i could not post attachments.. :sad:
Hey penance, start a wip thread, and post your pics there. If you put them on a server you can link to them so they show up. Check this thread out (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=49778) on hosting solutions. If you want to attach stuff they have to be under a certain filesize.

Max Stalker
09-08-2004, 10:40 AM
Hi to all.
Here is my entry.

http://theicebone.at.tut.by/sp-wireframe.jpg

Program : 3dsmax.
Faces : 592
Haven't done the textures yet.

alexyork
09-08-2004, 11:26 AM
Hi all.

I really really need some help with all this vertex prelighting stuff.

Basically I have my mesh - it's a single, solid, welded mesh, which has been textured individually for each poly using UVWMap and then colapsed back to an Editable Mesh (so the UVWMapping is saved onto the mesh). I have 3 lights in the scene, 1 direct light, 1 slot light and one omni light. It all looks super cool.

Now, what needs to be done to fulfil this prelighting requirement of the challenge?

I tried texture baking, but that is totally out of the question considering we are only allowed 1 x 128x128 texture and obviously we are allowed to tile it, so this seems like the wrong path to take.

I've been reading up about vertex lighting, but it's totally confusing me.

I'm using max 6

Ok so what do I need to do next to get this scene "pre-lighted"?

Thanks in advance

alexyork
09-08-2004, 11:28 AM
oh, and the textures have bump maps applied to them (the same map as the diffuse, so no extra "files" have been used) - can these be included in this prelighting as well?

Dargon
09-08-2004, 11:44 AM
I'm working on a tutorial for prelighting in Maya, but I haven't figured out the tools yet in Max, so that'll have to wait. This tutorial is taking a little while, there's lots to do, and it's getting pretty wordy. Give me a couple of days.

To address your questions, prelighting only changes the colour of your verticies. Bumps likely won't do much at all. Colour maps can usually affect the prelighting, if you use the settings to tell it to, but I usually recommend for you to not check that setting, as your texture will show through the lighting anyways.

If anyone has any insights for prelighting in Max, could you post them here?

In the meantime, mothermachine, you could try the max forum, they appear to be quite helpful.

alexyork
09-08-2004, 11:47 AM
Cheers Dargon.

I've had a look through the max forums but all the vertex lighting questions seem to be more "theres a bug" or "problem with it" kinda threads not "what is it, how do i use it"

cant seem to dig up any tutorials either. google was my best friend until now! :)

yes please - a big plea to all MAX users - please post pre-lighting tutorials for MAX here!

DjinnShadows
09-08-2004, 12:25 PM
Not really a complete vertex lighting tutorial but it explain the basis:
http://www.planetunreal.com/phalanx/tut's/tutorial_vertex.htm
http://www.unreal.fr/tutoriaux/vertex_lighting.php (same one in french)

Hope it'll help a little.

I also think that Max's help has a good explaination about vertex lighting

DerPapa
09-08-2004, 01:52 PM
Hi to all.
Here is my entry.

Program : 3dsmax.
Faces : 592
Haven't done the textures yet.
Hi Stalker
I assume you used Poly modelling to achieve this, true?
Remember everyone who's on the way with max, the actual polycounter does NOT count triangles of a editable poly. To get the correct count put a meshselect or editmesh modifier ontop the model or use the very handy script "Epolycounter" of Juan Martinez at: http://www.juantwo.com/
think it's compatible for all last maxversions.

Michael

glynnsmith
09-08-2004, 02:03 PM
Hi Stalker
I assume you used Poly modelling to achieve this, true?
Remember everyone who's on the way with max, the actual polycounter does NOT count triangles of a editable poly.


a HAH !!!

i thought i was having an easy time with it...

thanks for that :)

G...

glynnsmith
09-08-2004, 02:36 PM
How does the PS2 handle double sided polys or double sided materials / textures...?

for the fence railings around my tomb, i've whack in some double siders...could i get away with having single sided polys and making the material / texture 2 sided within max's mat editor ?

cheers :)

G...

Dargon
09-08-2004, 02:56 PM
No problem with double sided faces. While tecnically, they would count as double the polys, the PS2 handles them just fine, with no issues. So as far as this comp goes, they will not count for extra polys, just under the normal count. If I were an art director for this project though, I would insist that all polys that don't have to be double sided aren't.

glynnsmith
09-08-2004, 04:16 PM
another question :p

say i've made an unattached / unwelded door for the doorway of my tomb, with plans to mirror it over for the second door of the same doorway...

could i get away with not counting the polys for the second mirrored door, because it's exactly the same as the first door, geometry and texture / UV wise ?

G... :D

alexyork
09-08-2004, 04:18 PM
mhmmm

i think its safe to say that counts as twice as many polys. it's not like the camera doesn't see it (a-la double-sided polys).

otherwise we could just model half the mesh and mirror the whole thing and it only be 300 polys :)

twould be cheating :)

alexyork
09-08-2004, 04:23 PM
by the way - a tip for any one having problems with the polycount:

delete underside polys, backfacing polys and anything that the player won't be able to see (like round the back or underneath or up top)

you can save hundreds of polys doing this which can all go into detailing the mesh and won't affect how it looks in-game.

that is, if PS2 is capable of this :) (glad I didn't buy one lol)

glynnsmith
09-08-2004, 04:37 PM
yeah...my intentions for that question were innocent...

it actually came from when Unreal Tournament 2003 came out...i remember seeing a BUZZ vid and they said when they made multiply instances of the same prefab, it had little system overhead because it was kept in memory blahblahblah...

as soon as i posted it, i realised you could build half a model and mirror it over...D'OH...lol

i thought i'd wait out Dargon's answer just incase...but i think i'd pretty much have to agree with you that it should be left out...

i've got about a hundred polys left, but i want as many as possible to put detail back into it...everything that doesn't need to be in it, isn't...i got taught by Doc too, so i know all the dirty tricks :p

G...

alexyork
09-08-2004, 04:40 PM
No way????

u got taught by Paul Docherty???

Did you go to Teesside?

On that note, he wouldn't be too happy to know that we don't have to weld this all together. One of his recent modules was to make a whole game level segment with 15000 polys... all welded :)

glynnsmith
09-08-2004, 04:48 PM
yeah dude...i'm STILL at Tees...i'm going back to my final year in a couple of weeks...

and something that'll really make you laugh, i live about 4 doors away from you...i recognised your self portrait model from your site...i was being nosey...don't you live with those Greek looking dudes...???

and DOC...psh...i haven't heard anything from him all summer...i've heard loads from De Sa though...which is weird...

at least we're using Max though...he'd go up the wall if we didn't... :p

G...

alexyork
09-08-2004, 04:56 PM
noooooo way??????

what's ur name? which house are you in this year? which one were you in last year?

yeh I'm still living with the Greeks, same house too.

i havn't heard anything from Doc either. pretty shit*y if you ask me, since there are a lot of unanswered questions on t3df.com which are panicking students half to death over final year projects and other things. bout time he updated that site and put some of our work up too I think.

you spoke to De Sa? I havn't been in touch with any of my tutors really this summer.

Can't wait to get back into it all tho. I'm getting fat sitting on my ass doing projects all day long :)

You got a site up somewhere I can see your work?

glynnsmith
09-08-2004, 05:05 PM
lol...i think it'd be better on msn, yo...

i don't wanna get banned for hijacking this thread... :P

whaatahh@hotmail.com if you have it...otherwise pm me or email...

G...

P.S Glynn, number 15, used to have tied back, long hair and prolly wearing baggy jeans...i started the t3df thread that you went on to talk about the final year stuff...no website, which is cool because i always leave my uni work till last and end up rushing everything... :banghead:

RO
09-08-2004, 05:47 PM
This thread should stickied it is getting mixed up with the challenges.

Shadow Spoon
09-08-2004, 08:41 PM
How do I count tris in Maya? I cant find it in the UI elements.

Oh and btw. I'm in the competition to. Soon posting screens!

Hexodam
09-08-2004, 09:23 PM
Ok max users!
Vertex Paint!!1oneone!!eone

Its so easy that it isnt even funny http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/twisted.gif

select your object
select vertex paint modifier
paint away http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/bouncy.gif

Dargon
09-08-2004, 09:26 PM
Use this script (http://www.daveclement.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/toggleTriCountHUD.mel). It's from Bonus Tools, which you can download free from Alias, which I highly recommend everybody who uses Maya and Polygons, or even Sub-d's to do.

RO
09-08-2004, 09:28 PM
Ok max users!
Vertex Paint!!1oneone!!eone

Its so easy that it isnt even funny http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/twisted.gif

select your object
select vertex paint modifier
paint away http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/bouncy.gif
lol that is pretty easy and to think I use it all the time heheh

Hexodam
09-08-2004, 09:31 PM
hmm the shading works in the viewport but not in the rendering

alexyork
09-08-2004, 09:35 PM
yeh it's real easy to do with that modifier. thx :)

so still the problem of how to render with the vertex colours intact

gaggle
09-08-2004, 10:10 PM
Granted it's been ages since I last touched MAX, but isn't there are Vertex Color material node? I seem to recall a node you could apply to the.. ah.. uh.. colorchannel I suppose, and presto, thar be vertex colors in tharr render.

Maybe not though, as mentioned it's been a while since I've handled that proggie.


I do know that rendering vertex colors in Maya costs money, there's a plugin required that comes with a pricetag. Viewport vertex colors rivals the easyness of MAX though: "Edit Polygons -> Colors -> Paint Vertex Color Tool". That, and the MentalRay "Bake GI To Verticies" seems like pretty useful tools for this :).

Max Stalker
09-08-2004, 10:19 PM
To DerPapa:
Thanks , that you remind me about that...
Just cheked - it still has 592 faces.
It was cheked by three way - by max PolyCounter, by TinyCounter and by export in ASCII file - 592 faces.

I'am decided to put one more entry model.

http://theicebone.at.tut.by/gate-2.png

Face COunt - 574.
Software - 3dsmax 4.0
Still working on the textures for both of them.
GL to all !

Max Stalker
09-08-2004, 10:26 PM
To mothermachine:
To render mesh with vertex paint you need to apply material to this mesh.
For diffuse color map choose type VertexPaint (or Vertex Color don't remember at the moment) and press "Render" button.

glynnsmith
09-08-2004, 10:29 PM
That, and the MentalRay "Bake GI To Verticies" seems like pretty useful tools for this :).

*strokes imaginary beard*...

hrm...interesting :D

are we allowed to use this method Dargon ?

G...

Calveccio
09-08-2004, 10:36 PM
Great idea for a mini challenge! I might even get my entry in this time :rolleyes:. Hmmm 600 tri's...tough one. First challenge for me, and first low poly modle in XSI :love:

alexyork
09-08-2004, 11:12 PM
To mothermachine:
To render mesh with vertex paint you need to apply material to this mesh.
For diffuse color map choose type VertexPaint (or Vertex Color don't remember at the moment) and press "Render" button.
but surely if you apply a new material to the mesh with Vertex Color in the diffuse slot, then you will loose any textures on it?

is there anyway to render out a mesh that already have UVWMapped textures + the vertex colour modifier work on it? both of them, not just the vertex color stuff.

this is really confusing :/ MAX help files aren't doing their work here :shrug:

alexyork
09-08-2004, 11:15 PM
i better get this straight in my head:

vertex color work is simply to "fake" shading and shadows, right? it's not used to paint textures, since you need 1000 polys to get proper detail.

so, it's simply used as a modifier on top of your existing UVWmapped mesh which has textures on it.?

Dargon
09-08-2004, 11:43 PM
Right. It's only the colour value blending from one vertex to another. You can get some nice shading with it, but it's by no means a perfect system, just an incredibly cheap one.

default_human - Yes. It doesn't matter how you get the data for the vertex colouring, be it prelighting with basic settings, hand painting, or prelighting with mental ray, the data is the same in the end, just colour settings on individual verticies.



Just a reminder, this challenge is being mirrored at GamingArtist.com (http://www.gamingartist.com/). Check it out here. (http://www.gamingartist.com/viewtopic.php?t=642)

levin
09-09-2004, 01:14 AM
im a lowpoly newb sorry for these dumb questions:

what exactly is prelighting? is it synonymous with lightmap (by the way can we use lightmaps?) or is it like the method where you GI light your model with simple flat colors then use the baked GI light as lighting information to paint on over in photoshop?

Dargon
09-09-2004, 01:32 AM
It's more like the 2nd, but it bakes the lighting information to the verticies of the mesh. You don't paint over them in photoshop, and they don't effect the textures, except in the usual ways light does.

Dargon
09-09-2004, 01:34 AM
Finished up the first part to my tutorial on Prelighting. You can find it here. (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?p=1563843#post1563843)

Hopefully that will help some, I'll be posting how to actually accomplish these in Max and Maya tomorrow.

Max Stalker
09-09-2004, 08:22 AM
To mothermachine:

As a matter of fact, you don't need separate material to store vertex colors.
They will be saved in vertex data (coordinates,UV and other).
But if you want to see how the model will looks in 3dsmax you should do next:

1.Aply "VertexPaint Modifier" to your mesh.
2.Paint whatever you want.
3.Collapse stack (at this moment you already have model with painted vertexes)
4.Apply to the mesh material.Type of the material "Blend".
5.Now will going to setup two parts for blending.
Material 1: type Standart: diffuse map - type "Bitmap" (for textures)
Material 2: type Standart: diffuse map - type "Vertex Color"
In the propeties of Blend material setup "Mix amount" (for exemple 0.5)
6.Apply this material to your mesh.

If you have several bitmaps applied to your model then your Material1 is:
type Multi/Sub-object:
Material1: type Standart:
diffuse map - type "Bitmap" (texture_1)
Material2: type Standart:
diffuse map - type "Bitmap" (texture_2)
and so on...

Hexodam
09-09-2004, 08:47 AM
Max,
thanks for the info, but do you have to colapse the stack for it to work?

Max Stalker
09-09-2004, 11:59 AM
To Hexodam:
If you want to export your model with vertex paint - YES.
And if you wana just render it in 3dsmax than - NO, you don't have to.

alexyork
09-09-2004, 11:13 PM
Thanks a lot Max Stalker (member.php?u=85646) :)

alexyork
09-10-2004, 12:22 AM
I've found a very very basic tutorial in vertex colours in MAX:

http://www.mnmug.com/vpnongamer.htm

I finally figured out how to get them to render using this tutorial.

Thanks to the writer :)

Dargon
09-10-2004, 10:31 AM
Thanks for that mm! It'll help once I get around to finishing the Max part of the prelighting tutorial. BTW, if anybody knows how to do prelighting in any other programs, feel free to add to that tut.

alexyork
09-10-2004, 10:51 AM
Hey Dargon - we're all looking forward to reading your MAX pre-lighting tutorial bigtime here. I have some mates who are doing this challenge without entering on CGTalk (for practice) and they are gagging for your turorial :) I just thought i'd post a quick stop-gap until you have it ready :)

one question: do we post our final images/details in our WIP threads or do we start a new thread for that? or will you start your own final thread which we submit our work to?

Dargon
09-10-2004, 10:57 AM
I'll post a finals thread this weekend. I'll try and get it stickied too.

alexyork
09-10-2004, 11:00 AM
Awesome :) Thanks a lot!

AtrusDni
09-10-2004, 04:54 PM
I think this is going to be a fun challenge. Count me in. I already have my tomb modeled, just gotta texture it.

Dargon
09-13-2004, 01:37 AM
I've just included a Max portion to my prelighting tutorial.

You can find it here (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=168514)

Enjoy!!

blankslatejoe
09-13-2004, 05:11 AM
Ok, so don't post the finals here, wait for the final thread, correct? Alright then....

glynnsmith
09-14-2004, 09:29 AM
Hey Dargon...i have a question about the beauty render...

i know we're allowed to photoshop it, but are we able to add simple geometry that won't affect or change out model, like a floor plane ?

or if the tomb gate / door is going to be embedded into a wall of rock, are we allowed to make the wall and comp it all together ?

bearing in mind this is ONLY for the beauty render...

cheers dude :)

G...

alexyork
09-14-2004, 10:38 AM
Any news on ye olde Finals Thread? :)

Dargon
09-14-2004, 10:58 AM
Hey Dargon...i have a question about the beauty render...

i know we're allowed to photoshop it, but are we able to add simple geometry that won't affect or change out model, like a floor plane ?

or if the tomb gate / door is going to be embedded into a wall of rock, are we allowed to make the wall and comp it all together ?

bearing in mind this is ONLY for the beauty render...

cheers dude :)

G...
I was going to say yes, but then I realised that a few of the challengers have incorporated the walls into the polycount and texture size. While this was at their own risk, and not nessessary, I think it would only be fair if you didn't include versions with stuff that isn't part of your count.

If you need the extra geometry to cover up your entrance, and have it show how you intended, then I suggest rendering any extra geometry grey with a wireframe showing, so it's obvious it's not part of the design, but helps ground the piece.


Any news on ye olde Finals Thread? :)

Sorry, I've been uber busy, what with writing tutorials, and packing house. It'll be up soon.

Hexodam
09-14-2004, 11:02 AM
To Hexodam:
If you want to export your model with vertex paint - YES.
And if you wana just render it in 3dsmax than - NO, you don't have to.thanks, clears up everything:thumbsup:

rob-beddall
09-14-2004, 11:58 AM
hey!!

just to say that i'm in, but also....shouldn't this be a sticky?
i was stressing just coz i couldn't find it. never occured to me that it might NOT be a sticky hehe

cheers!!

glynnsmith
09-14-2004, 01:03 PM
yeah...i was going to say the same thing...i thought it WAS sticky at some point...

it took me 5 minutes to find the damn thing and that's only because i searched for it :p

STICKY !!!

G...

Dargon
09-14-2004, 01:13 PM
Actually, has anybody else noticed that this forum is listed as topic title by default, instead of how it used to be, last post date? Really annoying, as this thing has slipped to the 2nd page, and posting doesn't bring it forward. It's going to be even more annoying in the next challenge, when it goes alphabetically after this one.....

alexyork
09-14-2004, 01:19 PM
Dargon I thought that was you that did that because my thread had like 20 posts and was dominating the rest lol. I thought fair enuff :)

I don't mind this new system, but I do think the main topics should be post-based not time-based at least. Temp sticky maybe, so they are un-stuck when the challenge is over?

glynnsmith
09-14-2004, 04:23 PM
i actually sent a query to the CGTalk Support Forum because i thought it had broke somewhere along the lines...i've heard nothng about it yet though...

i'm getting a little frustrated because i've had hardly any crits, apart from Alex and Lee3dee...it might have something to do with my thread being on the second page (EDIT: or at least it was), because my model is definately not perfect, and in need of some serious critage... :hmm:

anyways...i better stop grumbling and get back to work...

G...

rob-beddall
09-14-2004, 07:38 PM
hey!!

can't you just click on the last post header? doesn't that put them in last post order?

or does it go back to normal afterwards?

cheers!!

hmmm, it seems to revert back to title listings. strange that. is there anyway to fix it or do we just have to wait for a moderator or someone to fix it?

cheers!!

rob-beddall
09-15-2004, 10:04 AM
hey!!

having a few probs with this competition.
how about a mini step by step tut on how to get opacity maps to work in the viewport? (max6)
i can't get the alpha from the targa to work at all. not even in renders or anything.

and is it possible to put a filter on the textures ingame (max) so that they don't look so pixellated?

cheers!!

glynnsmith
09-15-2004, 10:06 AM
The default view for that forum is to show the threads starting from the first one that was posted, as opposed to the most recent post. Most of the other forums display from the latest post, but some of the forums, such as this one and the gallery ones, display from first thread onwards.



i thought the latest posts always sorted first...

maybe not

G...

blankslatejoe
09-15-2004, 06:42 PM
hey!!
having a few probs with this competition.
how about a mini step by step tut on how to get opacity maps to work in the viewport? (max6)
i can't get the alpha from the targa to work at all. not even in renders or anything.

and is it possible to put a filter on the textures ingame (max) so that they don't look so pixellated?
cheers!!

Yeah, I'm having trouble with that tga+alpha, I just created a mock version of the alpha as it's own file, to work in the opac. slot like normal, with until I figured this out.

AS for filtering, I don't think you can do it in the viewport, but if you open the render options (f10) you can toggle some antialiasing or texture filtering on or off for the rendering.

If the RESOLUTION of the texture is low in the viewports, you CAN change that..
Go to Customize>preferences>viewports>
In the Display driver box, choose your videocard to bring up it's options. HEre's were you should be able to set the size of the downloaded bitmaps. I set it on the highest I can and choose "match bitmap as closely as possible".
Note: I'm using an Nvidia card, your options in that box might be a little different, but I think it'll still be in there somewhere if you thumb around.

Goodluck!
-Joe

blankslatejoe
09-15-2004, 08:10 PM
oooh... alpha transparency... loookeee what I just found fellas:

Dark horizon's got a tut on it!
http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/cottages/horribledeath/tut-alpha.htm

-joe

rob-beddall
09-16-2004, 06:56 AM
hey!!

woohoo thatnks for that link. i think i was going wrong by making the alpha visible in the viewport. :)
it all seems to make sense once you know how lol

and thanks for the other tip too. got me some smooth looking textures now.

cheers!!

blankslatejoe
09-16-2004, 07:11 AM
no problem, glad I could help!

rob-beddall
09-16-2004, 12:16 PM
hey!!

anyone know how to get vertex alphas to work? (max6)
i wanted to do some streaming light thingy and if i could get this to work thn it would save on texture space.

cheers!!

ManiaX
09-16-2004, 04:38 PM
hi, i have a question:
rob_beddal suggested to use particles for the flames. i think this would be cool,
but is it allowed? because when i use particle instead of my planes, i had 8 tris left...
btw my thread is located at:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=170126

Dargon
09-18-2004, 10:40 AM
hi, i have a question:
rob_beddal suggested to use particles for the flames. i think this would be cool,
but is it allowed? because when i use particle instead of my planes, i had 8 tris left...
btw my thread is located at:
I'll have to say no, for the sake of the cometition, as it's a bit unfair to the other competitors if I allow it over top of the restrictions, and nearly impossible to achieve if you do it within the restrictions. You can of course feel free to update this project after the competition with particles if you want.

My suggestion for the flames is to create a tilable flame texture with alpha, that's fairly thin as far as how much flames are there. Then with the buildup of about 3 planes, each subdivided to have 4 quads, you can then use vertex alpha to blend out at the edges, so it fades out to nothing. Then you would animate the UVs to scroll upwards, completing the effect.

blankslatejoe
09-18-2004, 07:51 PM
huh....that's pretty clever dargon. I'll have to remember that trick for future projects.

RO
09-18-2004, 09:13 PM
Are we going to have a final thread to add the entry we have made?

Dargon
09-20-2004, 08:35 AM
The final submissions thread is up.





Go post your work!






Please do not post comments in the submissions thread, post comments in the individual WIP threads instead.

ManiaX
09-20-2004, 09:19 AM
thx dargon for the info.
i think i will keep the flames...
good luck to eveyone!

Dargon
10-15-2004, 09:41 PM
Just a reminder, the deadline is fast approaching.

DEADLINE: October 17th, 2004


We have a few entries already in there, check them out here (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?p=1643361#post1643361)

alexyork
10-15-2004, 10:40 PM
jeesh this compo seems like an eternity ago - i started it and finished it back when I was still at home. now I'm at uni and totally broke! how things change :)

good luck all!

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