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pixel mixer
08-16-2004, 07:08 PM
http://www.alias.com/eng/education/training/masterclasses/siggraph_masterclasses_2004/paolo_mental_images.htm
CHAPTER 2. SubSurface Scattering

• Introduction
· misss_physical* and misss_fast*
· when to use misss_physical* and when to use misss_fast*
· installation: getting linking and including the shader

• ambient occlusion
· diffusive ambient occlusion
· reflective ambient occlusion
· bent normals pass (camera and world space)

• pyisical SSS
· theory
· practice
· special requirements
· examples

• fast SSS
· theory
· practice
· special requirements
· examples
*** simple SSS
****** using phenomena
****** using custom network of component shaders
*** skin SSS
****** using phenomena
****** using textured phenomena
****** using custom network of component shaders
****** using displacement maps with misss_fast* and subdivision surface approximation

apparently there are some new shaders lurking around:
misss_physical and misss_fast

anyone have seen these around at the Siggraph 2004 Masterclass?
how do these shaders compare to daniel rind's diffuse and mark davies subscatter?

thank you

pixel mixer

Powell
08-17-2004, 12:37 AM
The shaders are on the Siggraph 2004 MayaMasterclasses DVD.

spacemunky
08-17-2004, 01:07 AM
can someone please post the shaders...alias needs to learn to share unless they want to be underpriced and out performed by XSI AGAIN

pixelmonk
08-17-2004, 01:38 AM
can someone please post the shaders...alias needs to learn to share unless they want to be underpriced and out performed by XSI AGAIN
Buy the DVD and you get the shaders. How has XSI "out perfomed" Maya just because of Siggraph shaders? That made no sense.

spacemunky
08-17-2004, 01:57 AM
oh good lord...lets see........
1. working bevel
2. working sub-d
3. much better MR implimentation
4. actual edge loop tools (don't tell me MJ will do...because thats just sad)
5. working SSS (no additional purchase necessary)
6. better animation package
7. CHEAPER
8. no soft select (don't tell me Byron's tools...thats not made by alias..and not ready for maya6.0)

I use Maya professionaly and I am pissed that they are slacking so bad. Maya used to lead the industry and now they just rely on studios having too many tools written for maya to just turn around and buy XSI no matter how superior it is. Alias needs to inovate or at least keep pace or studios will not tolerate it anymore. I was at the master class for paid service subscribers of Alias and they gave us nothing and answered very few questions about the problems between Maya and MR, and now they add insult to injury by holding back a built in feature of MR for more money. Alias needs to take a hint...you don't stay on top by falling behind...and buying Kaydara does not count as inginuity.

Necropolis
08-17-2004, 02:11 AM
Not even to address the stuff about Maya vs. XSI. I find it extremely telling that you would essentially demand something for free that others have paid for. You want the shaders and the work behind them, you buy the DVD/Masterclass. It is really that simple.

Necropolis

Splin
08-17-2004, 04:43 AM
I must be blind. I made a search for that dvd, I am really interested purchasing it but man, I can not find it.
Looked through all the Alias education section and still nada :shrug:
Or I guess it is not released yet...

CIM
08-17-2004, 04:56 AM
oh good lord...lets see........
1. working bevel
2. working sub-d
3. much better MR implimentation
4. actual edge loop tools (don't tell me MJ will do...because thats just sad)
5. working SSS (no additional purchase necessary)
6. better animation package
7. CHEAPER
8. no soft select (don't tell me Byron's tools...thats not made by alias..and not ready for maya6.0)

I use Maya professionaly and I am pissed that they are slacking so bad. Maya used to lead the industry and now they just rely on studios having too many tools written for maya to just turn around and buy XSI no matter how superior it is. Alias needs to inovate or at least keep pace or studios will not tolerate it anymore. I was at the master class for paid service subscribers of Alias and they gave us nothing and answered very few questions about the problems between Maya and MR, and now they add insult to injury by holding back a built in feature of MR for more money. Alias needs to take a hint...you don't stay on top by falling behind...and buying Kaydara does not count as inginuity.

First off, Maya has a working bevel, sub-ds, and soft selection. Whether or not you like them is a different story. As for SSS and edge loop tools, you can have those totally free. If you're too lazy to download them, then you can just do without. As for which is better for animation, that's simply opinion. I've used XSI and I prefer Maya's workflow for animation.

Jozvex
08-17-2004, 04:57 AM
8. no soft select (don't tell me Byron's tools...thats not made by alias..and not ready for maya6.0)

Ok, then I'll tell you about the built in Soft Modification Tool in Maya 6, I think it's really great. It seems to do a whole lot more than the Max and XSI ones if you ask me, and that's not even mentioning the fact that it can be used as a deformer as well.

Plus, you can get like 3 workinng SSS shaders off the internet without purchasing anything. Diffusion, SubScatter and BSSRDF. AND I've heard that the two shaders created by Mental Images are just the fake volume scattering method compiled into one shader.

And yeah Splin, the DVD isn't released yet.

:hmm:

BillSpradlin
08-17-2004, 07:42 AM
Doubtful it will be released, more than likely Paolo will release a training DVD covering most of what he went over in the class.

pixelmonk
08-17-2004, 09:31 AM
oh good lord...lets see........


I use Maya professionaly and I am pissed that they are slacking so bad. Maya used to lead the industry and now they just rely on studios having too many tools written for maya to just turn around and buy XSI no matter how superior it is. Alias needs to inovate or at least keep pace or studios will not tolerate it anymore. I was at the master class for paid service subscribers of Alias and they gave us nothing and answered very few questions about the problems between Maya and MR, and now they add insult to injury by holding back a built in feature of MR for more money. Alias needs to take a hint...you don't stay on top by falling behind...and buying Kaydara does not count as inginuity.
so if they gave you free shaders that would make it all better? Still makes no sense.

pixel mixer
08-17-2004, 10:31 AM
has anyone attended Paolo Bertos's class to give us more details?

mental
08-17-2004, 02:40 PM
It was an expanded version of what was covered during his 3December Tokyo class:

http://www.jupiter-jazz.com/

"TRIX R 4 KIDS, Vol. 2" will cover:

-advanced final gathering techniques
-subsurface scattering
-hardware accellerated software rendering
-memory optimizations

he is a very nice guy by the way.

spacemunky
08-17-2004, 04:06 PM
Is this a joke.....this is why Alias turns out worse and worse versions of Maya each time around...because "fanboys" come out to defend it. I've already layed out what I think Alias is doing wrong so I won't repeat myself except to say this. Tools like XSI, Modo and Zbrush will continue to inovate and studios that only use maya will find themselves falling behind in production quality as the tools they need do not come with Alias software. As far as the SSS...this is a built in feature in MR now...not some hack. If MR makes it in the code then Alias should allow its users to use it since many of use purchase Maya for its MR implimentation. I have not mentioned it...but it is also missing hardware accelerated rendering and Rapid Motion blur. If you guys are fine with being short changed then fine...you will continue to love Alias for years to come...I on the other hand will keep pushing Alias to give us what we pay for...or push people to move from Maya if they don't. Its called a consumer society, if you don't complain...they won't change.

pixel mixer
08-17-2004, 04:36 PM
hardware rendering was also discussed at the rendering masterclass. so is there anybody that got there to enlighten us? are these shaders available or not?

Lyr
08-17-2004, 05:50 PM
As far as the SSS...this is a built in feature in MR now...not some hack. If MR makes it in the code then Alias should allow its users to use it since many of use purchase Maya for its MR implimentation. I have not mentioned it...but it is also missing hardware accelerated rendering and Rapid Motion blur. If you guys are fine with being short changed then fine...you will continue to love Alias for years to come...I on the other hand will keep pushing Alias to give us what we pay for...
Are you one of those people that doesn't read documentation? Perhaps you should consider opening up the mental ray docs that shipped with maya 6 before opening your mouth.

pixel mixer
08-17-2004, 06:13 PM
yes SSS is a part of mray kernel but not as a mental ray for maya node, the same for hardware rendering. all this is to be used in coding a mray shader. i'm interested for the moment in the copiled shader version. i'm not writing code for mray yet!

leuey
08-17-2004, 06:21 PM
Dude, relaaaaaaaaax. I don't see any fanboyism here. If I were as frustrated as you seem to be I'd just switch to XSI and be done w/ it. MR will continue to get better w/ each release - these shaders you so desperately covet I'm sure will become available eventually. There's plenty of free stuff out there as other people have mentioned to fill in the gaps until then. And btw - Alias innovates all the time. PaintfX isn't innovative? who else has it? FluidFX anybody?? The new hair system that can be used for all sorts of deformable fx is plenty innovative. MEL?? I'd say that was pretty innovative to create it and integrate it at such a low level. C'mon man...

-Greg


Is this a joke.....this is why Alias turns out worse and worse versions of Maya each time around...because "fanboys" come out to defend it. I've already layed out what I think Alias is doing wrong so I won't repeat myself except to say this. Tools like XSI, Modo and Zbrush will continue to inovate and studios that only use maya will find themselves falling behind in production quality as the tools they need do not come with Alias software. As far as the SSS...this is a built in feature in MR now...not some hack. If MR makes it in the code then Alias should allow its users to use it since many of use purchase Maya for its MR implimentation. I have not mentioned it...but it is also missing hardware accelerated rendering and Rapid Motion blur. If you guys are fine with being short changed then fine...you will continue to love Alias for years to come...I on the other hand will keep pushing Alias to give us what we pay for...or push people to move from Maya if they don't. Its called a consumer society, if you don't complain...they won't change.

thebigMuh
08-17-2004, 06:28 PM
yes SSS is a part of mray kernel
Where?

Ciao, ˇmuh!

spacemunky
08-17-2004, 07:19 PM
LYR-"
Are you one of those people that doesn't read documentation? Perhaps you should consider opening up the mental ray docs that shipped with maya 6 before opening your mouth."

-it is in the code...its not in the Alias docs because they don't want people to know that their lazy ass's just left it out of Maya 6 in an effort to beat XSI 4.0 to the market. I read every doc that Alias writes...so you should be watching your mouth before spouting about things you don't know. If you want to talk about lazy, why don't you call alias and ask why they have only 3 guys working on bug fixes, which is why 6.01 causes more problems than it solves.

LEUEY-

- I respect what you said about Alias..but you need to remember that all of those tools are now 2 years old and not much has been done since, an while i believe that at one time Alias was commited to innovation they have no dropped the ball and are adding features to mask the existing problems which they do not know how to fix. Maya now has the worst built in modeling tools in the industry, and people like myself are stuck with it because studios have invested too much time in tools to switch. I personally will be testing Modo when it comes out to see if that will solve the problem. And no I am not some angry ex-MAX user or such...I learned on Maya 4 and having been working with it professionaly for going on a year and a half. I am sincerely disappointed because I used to love maya and now it is a constant battle just to get my work done with no real normal mapping utillity(the one in Maya 6.0 is just sad). I started this complaint in the thread because I found it insulting that anyone would stick up for Alias when they charge for tools they were too lazy to include in their overpriced software the first time. So if anyone has the shaders it would be nice if they would make them public and do what Alias should have done in the beginning.

Dr. Ira Kane
08-17-2004, 07:43 PM
spacemunky i know what you mean, sure maya is great but it looks like alias forgot what they should really fix, who need 100 tools partly working, i need few but strong and fast and that's it, recently when i looked at cinema 4d update features list i had to grab my jaw from the floor, i always thought they were not as highend as maya, xsi etc but now it looks like they have better inbuilt tools than maya, sad, i'm looking for modo to and i still miss lightwave's sds, now i'm taking closer look at xsi. Maya is very stable and i love the workflow i'm used too but damn maya is loosing it's power. The shaders would be a nice addition to maya but i don't need them so badly to think of this dvd.

Powell
08-17-2004, 07:49 PM
OK...getting back to what this thread should REALLY be about....

The Maya MasterClasses DVD was given to people who paid for the entire package of MayaMasterClasses at Siggraph. It contails .pdf's of all the classes as well as materials such as scene files, shaders, scripts..ect.
Id be happy to post the shaders, but I would like to get permission to do so first...Im not sure if they are meant to be distributed freely....:shrug:

If you guys want to keep flaming eachother over Maya vs. XSI, please do so in another thread!

Digidim
08-17-2004, 08:11 PM
OK...getting back to what this thread should REALLY be about....

The Maya MasterClasses DVD was given to people who paid for the entire package of MayaMasterClasses at Siggraph. It contails .pdf's of all the classes as well as materials such as scene files, shaders, scripts..ect.
Id be happy to post the shaders, but I would like to get permission to do so first...Im not sure if they are meant to be distributed freely....:shrug:

If you guys want to keep flaming eachother over Maya vs. XSI, please do so in another thread!
...why don´t you post some (quick) pics instead - made with these "desired" shaders...so we can see what this hype is all about...

francescaluce
08-17-2004, 09:09 PM
MayaMasterClasses at Siggraph. It contails .pdf's of all the classes as well as materials such as scene files, shaders, scripts..ect....but not the misss_shaders :shrug:.. that..

"At the moment you'll be following this masterclass / reading its documentation, the misss_physical* and misss_fast* shaders will be made available from Alias trough their website. Besides eventual extra documentation provided with it, you'll definitely get the 'subsurface' library file compiled for your system and the relative declaration file. "





ciao
francesca

blender
08-17-2004, 10:05 PM
I have the 2004 MasterClasses DVD

can you please be so kind and point me to the proper place where these shaders are.
i can't seem to find them..

perhaps i'm looking in the wrong place.

thanks a bunch

OK...getting back to what this thread should REALLY be about....

The Maya MasterClasses DVD was given to people who paid for the entire package of MayaMasterClasses at Siggraph. It contails .pdf's of all the classes as well as materials such as scene files, shaders, scripts..ect.
Id be happy to post the shaders, but I would like to get permission to do so first...Im not sure if they are meant to be distributed freely....:shrug:

If you guys want to keep flaming eachother over Maya vs. XSI, please do so in another thread!

Digidim
08-17-2004, 10:27 PM
lol...Much Ado About Nothing (W. Shakespeare) :buttrock:

Jozvex
08-18-2004, 03:40 AM
I have not mentioned it...but it is also missing hardware accelerated rendering and Rapid Motion blur.

Rapid Motion Blur is in Maya 6, there are already a few threads in this forum on how to turn it on via a dropdown menu in the Render Globals.


:rolleyes:

pixel mixer
08-18-2004, 09:45 AM
Where?
Ciao, ˇmuh!About mental ray 3.3
In addition to significant performance improvements, especially when rendering scenes that contain hair or fur geometry, additional features include the following:

Accelerated graphics hardware rendering: Exploitation of available graphics hardware for high quality rendering, including support for OpenGL, NVIDIA's Cg 1.2 higher level language, phenomena and shade trees where hardware shaders are available. Automatic combination of hardware and software generated elements. Support for displacement mapping, order independent transparency, hair geometry, volumes, and high quality anti-aliasing
Detail shadowmaps: Combination of shadowmap and ray traced shadow algorithms for more realistic shadows
Subsurface scattering: Powerful, physically correct simulation of subsurface scattering effects, according to actual local geometric and optic properties
State shaders: Tighter integration with animation packages and a more powerful interface between mental ray and front ends, resulting in better control of application-specific rendering effects and phenomena
Conditional rendering of scene files: For improved selection and control of processing scene contents
OpenEXR image file format: Support of the OpenEXR high dynamic range image file format developed at Industrial Light & Magic, for texture and image output
i guess somewhere in there since they stated the above!!!

ciao

CIM
08-18-2004, 12:27 PM
Apparently subsurface scattering isn't part of mr 3.3, however, mental images is working on a shader and many Phenomena for such a thing. I guess we'll just have to wait until they publicly release it. :wip:

pixel mixer
08-18-2004, 02:07 PM
frankly i like the way mray works, making a shader is like compositing a shot. i admit i never found subsurface scattering explained in mray docs for now. maybe is there and i could not found it ... but i have to trust mental images for stating that SSS is a part of 3.3.

lazzhar
08-18-2004, 08:29 PM
I wonder why waiting Mental Images to create an SSS shader while we have the Diffusion from Daniel(thebigMuh)
It's a good, fast and stable true SSS shader I think. So what MI will bring?
Remember the Glossy reflections, some prefer using the DGS to render such an effect, but with the free Reflection Utility we have a better solution.

chocobo2k
08-18-2004, 09:27 PM
well, I agree with spacemunky come on guys lets just be fair, Maya has been the best 3d package for cg industry but all the lagging from alias has made me mad, I know you guys all love maya and alias but with no offense, yes Alias has made PaintFx, fluids and recently hair but why they did not integrate hair in MR so we can use it since maya defualt renderer is just too old so goes with SSS, how long SSS has been hanging around thankx to BigMuh's shader and the others but this is countered on alias although they put the bonus tools but why did not integrate it with maya at the first place, I am not lazy to install them but this is not an inovative way to speed the workflow and overall view to Maya as a major player in the Cg industry. Not this only but they want it for money, this is a shit since it should be incorporated at the first place instead of trying to gain small amount of money, believe me this is strategy is as bad as they will get used to it.
So talking about Maya Shader library ?! where it is now, it is just gone, any body would like to see a well organized Shader library in maya. Instead of their too old library.
Why they did not incorporate a smarter way to render PaintFX in MR like generation of polygons at render time, many other odd things on the list, talking about their Maya Live and their Bad cloth simulator yet compared with Syflex that has been hitting every place.:sad:
and look to their polytools, would it be so great to incorporate something smarter than MJ poly tools or Byrons in the first place or at least think of putting them in the bouns tools. Many many questions and no body answer, I have gone and complained to them to their maya request feature page.
But thanks to you guys for your wonderfull shaders which made as dont need alias at least for the shaders since they are really SMART :applause:

Jozvex
08-19-2004, 01:04 AM
Oh my lordy,

although they put the bonus tools but why did not integrate it with maya at the first place

The whole point of the Bonus Tools is that they're not ready yet to be incorporated into Maya. They're like beta versions, Alias just releases them because a lot of them work well enough to be useful. They say they are not supported, because they aren't ready. Usually a lot of the Bonus Tools are integrated into the next release of Maya.

Not this only but they want it for money,

What do you mean? The Bonus Tools are free.

So talking about Maya Shader library ?! where it is now, it is just gone,

No it's not, I've got it installed right now. It's on the Maya 6 CD as always. If that's what you mean??

Why they did not incorporate a smarter way to render PaintFX in MR like generation of polygons at render time, many other odd things on the list, talking about their Maya Live and their Bad cloth simulator yet compared with Syflex that has been hitting every place.:sad:

Honestly, there are always things Alias 'could have done', they could have not implemented Hair and Fluids until version 7 when they knew that everything is integrated into Mental Ray, but why wait when you can use them fine in other ways?? Alias don't just have unlimited amounts of money and people to spend making everything absolutely perfect for every single customer.

Ugh.

francescaluce
08-19-2004, 01:16 AM
I wonder why waiting Mental Images to create an SSS shader while we have the Diffusion from Daniel(thebigMuh)
It's a good, fast and stable true SSS shader I think. So what MI will bring?
Remember the Glossy reflections, some prefer using the DGS to render such an effect, but with the free Reflection Utility we have a better solution.mmh.. I think here is another history... the base shaders (dgs and so on) are in maya.. and I donno why.. coz they're for devs to look at shader writing.. this new SSS bonus tool.. is really good.. the miss_fast_ .. is actually faster and there's not the annoying problem for the shadows.. plus there is also the the miss_physical... that's physically correct.



ciao
francesca

augustus
08-19-2004, 08:32 AM
this new SSS bonus tool.. is really good.. the miss_fast_ .. is actually faster and there's not the annoying problem for the shadows.. plus there is also the the miss_physical... that's physically correct.
Yes, this fast_sss thing look really good and fast, and skin shader is lookworthy (not tested much yet). Only thing, documents don't help much, I couldn't figure out how to write a lightmap without a dummy file:shrug: Otherwise, good job. :thumbsup:

Jozvex
08-19-2004, 08:35 AM
Yeah the docs are pretty complicated!

francescaluce
08-19-2004, 01:10 PM
I couldn't figure out how to write a lightmap without a dummy file..just type a valid path and add a fictius name.. also without extension.

C:\Documents and Settings\moody\Desktop\augustus

no need to have already a previously created dummy file.. obviuosly.. do not try to access your path with the explorer(open file).. but just by raw typing.



ciao
francesca

augustus
08-19-2004, 01:33 PM
obviuosly.. do not try to access your path with the explorer(open file).. but just by raw typing.
Not that obvious:D Thank you.

MunCHeR
08-19-2004, 01:44 PM
I on the other hand will keep pushing Alias to give us what we pay for...or push people to move from Maya if they don't.
Good attitude, people would be listening to you why? let me guess you're going to complain to alias to implement features they have already implemented. If you're so frustrated with it, grab yourself a copy of XSI for $495 and knock yourself out:thumbsup:

MunCH

depleteD
10-19-2004, 07:41 PM
K just to clear everything up. SSS works in mr 3.3 for maya 6.
Its just lacking shader nodes for the misss fast/physical ect. I brought them over from max 7 and maya recognized them but I have to MEL the AEtemplates to access all the settings. I heard that these were already developed and I'm trying to track them down.

Jozvex
10-19-2004, 10:51 PM
Just to re-clear things up, you don't need to get them from Max 7, they have been available for quite some time on the Alias website:

http://www.alias.com/eng/community/downloads/bonus_tools/index.jhtml

:)

dynamic duotone
10-21-2004, 02:22 PM
Hello all,

I have been working with these SSS shaders for about 2 months now and did not get to make it to Siggraph...does Alias sell this DVD now (post Siggraph). I may have missed someone's post in this thread already saying where to find it.

If not, is someone willing to sell me a copy that the got a Siggraph. I am just about at my limits of being self taught, and have gotten decent results with these SSS shaders, but would love to have some professional 3rd party input on how the settings affect each other.

This is a desperate cry for more insight...:cry:

Thanks
DD

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