Glows and Blowee Uppee

[ThomasHelzle]

Use another package until there are usable particles in messiah.
Everything you asked it impossible currently.
The only way I found to control size is using objects as particles and size them - but if you need 10000 particles you will go insane since there is no instancing.

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

Well I did some tests and here is the info


http://www.pirateproductionsstudios.com/PMG_TESTS/pics/blood001.jpg


First I modeled a simple bowl in Maya. The first problem was that M. S. flipped the normals ( So did Lightwave ). Then I set up a null and did blobby particles. Some things that need to be implemented are:

(1) You need to be able to change the particle's display type for better interaction. High numbers of particles caused problems.

(2) Definatly need some optimisation.

(3) Lots of noise in the simulation. It was difficult to get a particle to come to rest on the table. They Pulse.

(4) Major bug using more than 1 thread at render time. (Memory allocation error hit and locked the box on frame 18 every time) I use a dual AMD with 4 Gigs of ram And the maximum swap file size.

(5) The biggest problem is that you just can't get a smooth flow of particles out of the emmitter. I changed the rate of emmission and the number of particles emmitted a hundred fold and still got the same weird pulse emmision. (See Movie )

(6) I noticed that the shadows render as pure black. I am assume that the scene had some default amount of ambient light. (I'll check ) and the shadows should show this.
( I checked and ambient light was off so that error was mine )


DIVX MOVIE (http://www.pirateproductionsstudios.com/PMG_TESTS/pics/Fluid_001.avi)


PROJECT FILE (http://www.pirateproductionsstudios.com/PMG_TESTS/files/part/waterBowl_001.mpj)

Render times varied between 30 seconds a frame to 7 minutes a frame at (640x480). I'm shocked that I can't force a glow by upping Luminosity or Radience or something.

Hope this helps

Eddie Da Pirate

[ThomasHelzle]

That's one scary movie >LOL<
Now try that with Motion Blur...

I just hope that some time in the future pmG starts to test what they code.
This animation shows again that nobody there _ever_ tried to render or really use particles.
I had similar and even more bad results and it was reported uncounted times. They can be fun in OpenGL but who cares?

Experiences like that make messiah look so much more bad as it should. Sometimes it may look as if I am ranting, but I really just can't believe that someone is putting something as crappy as those particles in a released product. Better leave it out if there is no time to do it right.
First they couldn't be rendered or used at all for a very long time although they were shown on the hompage as a cool feature. Now they kind of can be rendered but look at that mess...

It looks as if Taron is the only hope for messiah to become "production ready" (how I understand that term**). Let's pray his next feature needs millions of particles and dynamic clouds of smoke and fire with heavy motion blur... :-)

**"Production Ready" means to me, that features that are there can be used in a production. Period
Even a limited feature set is fully acceptable as long as it does what it says so you can decide beforehand if it will work for your production or not. If not, you can use another package. No damage done. No respect lost.
"_Not_ Production Ready" means to me that you find out the hard way by trial and error that it does not what it states or doesn't work at all. It costs you time and energy and leaves you frustrated. Most productions have a tight deadline so every additional bit of pressure hurts. It is the responsibility of a developer to make sure that he causes no _unneeded_ pain. I don't talk about nasty bugs here that only show up in special situations but about stuff that every user will encouter all the time.
messiah has too much of the latter and that makes the fantastic part look ugly too.

Carpe Diem

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

Yeah I agree. I really want to use this software and I am trying to use it on 2 paid contracts right now. But I can tell you it makes me nervouse because if I run into a brickwall it will cost me 2 good clients. I sent out a request for Tarron to write an overview of a complete character from start to finish but I think it was ignored. I know he is very busy but so am I. As far as I know my staff is larger than PMG and I don't all ways have time to debug other peoples software. That is why I pay THEM lots of money. But on the other hand I have all ways been a sucker for the underdog and I want to see them make it. Documentation is so important !!! I know . I taught this stuff at the masters level for years. You just can't expect beginners to be able to reverse engineer a scene. Hopefully they will realise that their CUSTOMERS have a right to be frustrated when they don't document things fully.

I'll do my best to post anything I find good or bad.

Eddie

[ThomasHelzle]

Yes! That is why I sit here writing the docs for my shaders for weeks now although I would have really loved to release them long ago. Currently there are 22MB of compressed Html (.chm) with lots of images and videos - I'm sure it will be above 30Mb before I'm finished.
And I really try to make everything as obvious as possible.
Each shader has a "Help" button in the interface that brings you to the correct page in the docs, the buttons and dropdowns show you a short helptext in the command line if you roll over them (the value-entry fields don't allow that since the SDK makers think it isn't needed...)

I hope that people will have fun with the shaders - I don't want them to be frustrated.
pmG told me a good lesson over the last 4 years about what to avoid :-)

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

I wanted you to know that I really like your work and your shaders are FANTASTIC. I spent about a hour on your site checking it out. Also I am curiouse about Berlin. We have been thinking about moving our company ( I have 2 partners ) over to Europe next year. But we aren't sure what to expect overseas. As far as the PMG guys I know they work hard that is why I am giving them a chance. I think they need to realise that we are using their software by choice. Tarron sent out an e-mail on the yahoo groups that said " complain to the big software guys and see where it gets you."

Well my response is this. I own 7 full seats of XSI. I had some issues when we were installing them so I called XSI. They flew a guy down from Canada and they spent an entire day with me and my staff. Well I can't even call PMG. Another example is Zbrush. We had a big job for NAB and we had to do it in 72 hours. Well we wanted to use Zbrush 2 on the job so I made some calls to see if we could get it early. 30 minutes later the head of the company was calling me and we had the software within an hour of that phone call. We are not a huge firm by any means but we mostly do childrens shows and a lot of companies have bent over backwards to help us when we needed it. I know these guys are proud of their software but without people like us they won't survive.

EDDIE

[lmilton]

Well I did some tests and here is the info


http://www.pirateproductionsstudios.com/PMG_TESTS/pics/blood001.jpg



DIVX MOVIE (http://www.pirateproductionsstudios.com/PMG_TESTS/pics/Fluid_001.avi)


PROJECT FILE (http://www.pirateproductionsstudios.com/PMG_TESTS/files/part/waterBowl_001.mpj)

Render times varied between 30 seconds a frame to 7 minutes a frame at (640x480). I'm shocked that I can't force a glow by upping Luminosity or Radience or something.

Hope this helps

Eddie Da Pirate
Wow, that's some crazy results. Fortunately, Fori's already been focusing on the particle system and has some features for the next update. We'll run some tests of the new stuff with your scene. If everything checks out, I'll try to post a sample here.

Thanx, Eddie :})

-lyle

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

Your Welcome !!!!!:) I am going to go through your entire program in the next 7 days and I will make a point of posting anything and everything I find out about M.S. . Like I said before we want to use your software and I hope that we can help make it better for everyone. And since I have to invest my time to do this I have decided to produce a training DVD on using M. S. and Zbrush in a production environment. I might as well since I need to decide if Pirate can use it (M.S.) on productions.

http://www.pirateproductionsstudios.com/flashsite/images/mrm1.jpg

[lmilton]

Your Welcome !!!!!:) I am going to go through your entire program in the next 7 days and I will make a point of posting anything and everything I find out about M.S. . Like I said before we want to use your software and I hope that we can help make it better for everyone. And since I have to invest my time to do this I have decided to produce a training DVD on using M. S. and Zbrush in a production environment. I might as well since I need to decide if Pirate can use it (M.S.) on productions.

While we haven't been able to be as responsive as usual, we're still focused on our users. We always get swamped around SIG because everyone wants a piece of us:}) Couple that with having just released our latest products and it makes for some long silences... but it's all to your advantage.

BTW, that's what Taron really was refering to; we may not be able to fly someone out to you to solve your problems (no one can do that for *every* user, not even Alias, Avid, or discreet), but you can be sure that you have a *direct* affect on the course of the software. messiah is developed not just with feedback from the users, but often a direct collaboration. messiah:studio 2.0 was only the beginning. We're already moving into the next phase. So, don't hesitate to post your findings... good or bad.

Thanx

-lyle

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

That's good to hear. And please understand I am definately NOT trying to be negative. I was trying to make the point that all of this is a two way street. We have a responsibilty to report any bugs we find in a productive manner. I know how fierce competition is in your business and I don't envy you at all. But I do think that there is a lot of confusion on how to use your software. And I know that USER loyalty can make or break a software firm.

[lmilton]

That's good to hear. And please understand I am definately NOT trying to be negative. I was trying to make the point that all of this is a two way street. We have a responsibilty to report any bugs we find in a productive manner. I know how fierce competition is in your business and I don't envy you at all. But I do think that there is a lot of confusion on how to use your software. And I know that USER loyalty can make or break a software firm.
No worries, Eddie. I totally understand where you're coming from; it's very annoying when you feel like you're going out on a limb and then get ignored. (I know because we've been there... and it's the reason that messiah & pmG even exist.) Sometimes you have no choice but to voice your concerns. But when you do, it will always be easy to find those who sypathize. The danger then is that wild speculation and grand negative statements can ensue. Of course I do realize that our having to be silent from time to time doesn't help at all. Unfortunately, we are quite small, so the occasional silences can't be avoided.

Just note that no one outside of pmG is privy to any info that we haven't released publicly... no matter how connected they may claim to be. In fact, I have info that *no one* else knows, some of it potentially very positive for everyone. So don't let the speculation & wild statements drag you down. Keep using the software and posting your progress. As any messiah user will tell you (even those who choose to be negative), your feedback *will* help to determine the course of the software.

Thank you for your support, Eddie :})

-lyle

[gsuttor]

Just note that no one outside of pmG is privy to any info that we haven't released publicly... no matter how connected they may claim to be. In fact, I have info that *no one* else knows, some of it potentially very positive for everyone.
-lyle
Owwweeee.... now you've just gone and made things interesting.

Hmmm... let me see... wild speculation... here goes...

1. pMG have found a modeling partner to intergrate their tools with messiah.
2. pMG have bought out Softimage and Alias and will be releasing messiah:softaya which integrated all 3 apps and sells for $9.99 at Walmart.

no wait I got it...

3. pMG have won a $500 million lottery and are sending us all first class to LA to work on a feature film using messiah to rival PIXAR's latest blockbuster. Man, we would kick arse. ;)

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

That's pretty good. I don't think the universe could handle such good karma. I am curiouse what the new stuff is myself.

I just left a meeting where we bid on a feature film and I am seriously thinking about using PMG. They want to see a test shot in one month. The big catch the main character has lots of hair. ( This one project would pay all 22 of my employees salaries for a YEAR !)


So if one of these new features is hair or the ability to use Sasquatch in Messiah Studio I would love to hear about it very very soon. I am considering using Messiah because they did respond and they did it in a positve way. All I ever need to know is that the people backing me are trying there best.

You Get What You Give;:beer:

Eddie

[ThomasHelzle]

Eddie, thanks for the nice feedback.

If you ever happen to be in Berlin, it would be nice to have a cup of coffee with you in one of the many street-caffees. Especially in summer, Berlin is a real nice place to live and work.

But it seems that most good 3D artists are moving to England, France or the US etc.
Almost everybody that reaches a serious level "vanishes"...
Something seems to be missing in germany.
I would say it is humor.
Just read my posts :) or look at german comedies... shudder... :rolleyes: :hmm:

But since I seem to have moved myself to the blacklist again, I will try to stay more quiet now.

Take care

[PaulNewman]

So if one of these new features is hair or the ability to use Sasquatch in Messiah Studio I would love to hear about it very very soon. I am considering using Messiah because they did respond and they did it in a positve way. All I ever need to know is that the people backing me are trying there best.
I affirm all of the above :

- hair
- hair, especially Sasquatch
- considering using messiah for film production
- pmG responding in a positive way and doing their best

[ghopper]

....
But since I seem to have moved myself to the blacklist again, I will try to stay more quiet now.
....


Communication is a tough one to master, especially when English or whatever the "mother tongue" is, is not your "mother tongue" ;) Misunderstandings etc are bound to happen.

In this case your post was probably perceived negatively, because it sounded mainly negative and less constructive. Words like "crappy" ... "It looks as if Taron is the only hope for messiah to become "production ready" can make one more defensive.

Maybe it's time to open that NLP book again ;) ( Only j/king )

Anyway, you didn't want to come accross as wanting to bash pmG, probably just wanted to vent off some heat.

Just show one of your cool shaders and everything should be in sweet again. If that doesn't help, a group hug sure does ;)

[lmilton]

Haha! I didn't mean to spark even more speculation:}) I just wanted to point out that in business matters of pmG, the only info that you can rely on is that which comes directly from us.

- hair
- hair, especially Sasquatch
I wouldn't count on seeing a messiah version of Sasquatch. I contacted Worley, myself, and it appears that he intends to only develop for LightWave. Only he knows his reasons for doing this, so I ask everyone to please respect his choice and not engage in speculation.

As I said in the past, one way or another we'll get you a fur/hair solution in messiah. It looks like we'll have to develop a solution ourselves. That's not a problem at all, but it wouldn't be realistic to espect anything within the next month. However, this will likely be something on which Fori, Taron, & I will collaborate... marking our first *true* collaboration. I'm looking forward to it. When there is something more to report on this, you know we will.

- considering using messiah for film production
- pmG responding in a positive way and doing their best
Always. It means a great deal to us that our users actually enjoy our products. While we can't promise that messiah will address every concern you have 100% in the timeframe you may need it, we will *always* do our best to take care of our users.

Thank you, Paul :})

-lyle

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

I don't think anyone was trying to be negative. I started this post simply so they could see what was going on (I definately didn't expect the huge response) And Thomas I doubt if your on any blacklist. You have made one of the first products for PMG. That helps them out so much. Also could you find out how much a warehouse in downtown Berlin would cost in U.S. dollars that would be a big favor.

And everyone keeps subtley picking on Taron. That needs to stop. Taron's job is to be PMG's head artist. HE IS JUST DOING HIS JOB. I was just calling him on a comment that was kind of rude. And he definately is not PMG's only hope. He is very good. But he is not the only one. That I know for a fact.

As far as the hair goes I am going to call Worley and see if I can change their minds because I'm not kidding about the feature. I don't want to have to port to Lightwave every time. The goal here is to use Messiah from beginning to end. My first test shot is due in a month. So I am asking for PMG's help officially. I have two programmers on staff but they haven't even begun to review your stuff. We are willing to help you code it, or beta test anything you have. Just give me a place we can start.

** Even if we can't use it on the test shot maybe we can have somthing ready by the time the rest of production starts **

Eddie:bounce:

[PaulNewman]

I wouldn't count on seeing a messiah version of Sasquatch. I contacted Worley, myself, and it appears that he intends to only develop for LightWave. Only he knows his reasons for doing this, so I ask everyone to please respect his choice and not engage in speculation. Roughly 4 weeks ago I also sent a letter to Worley Labs to voice my support for Sasquatch in messiah. Heard nothing back. Now I know the answer.

As I said in the past, one way or another we'll get you a fur/hair solution in messiah. It looks like we'll have to develop a solution ourselves. That's not a problem at all, but it wouldn't be realistic to espect anything within the next month. However, this will likely be something on which Fori, Taron, & I will collaborate... marking our first *true* collaboration. I'm looking forward to it. When there is something more to report on this, you know we will. Looking forward to the fruits of your labor. I'm positive your hair/fur solution will be a really good one. And being developed in-house means you control the quality and don't get weighed down with licensing, etc.

It means a great deal to us that our users actually enjoy our products. While we can't promise that messiah will address every concern you have 100% in the timeframe you may need it, we will *always* do our best to take care of our users. Thank you Lyle, I'm certainly excited to almost be on board. I hope to benefit from your efforts and to contribute myself.

[PaulNewman]

As far as the hair goes I am going to call Worley and see if I can change their minds because I'm not kidding about the feature. I don't want to have to port to Lightwave every time. The goal here is to use Messiah from beginning to end. My first test shot is due in a month. So I am asking for PMG's help officially. I have two programmers on staff but they haven't even begun to review your stuff. We are willing to help you code it, or beta test anything you have. Just give me a place we can start. Now here's a serious man. I certainly hope it will amount to something - if not now, sometime soon. Eddie, all of the best with your efforts and your pitch for the feature work! :thumbsup:

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

Thanks Paul. It was a huge shock to all of us here. We went to this event in downtown Austin last night and never realised how much of an affect we had on filmaking here. There was a lot of BIG L.A. money waitng to talk to us and they want to take advantage of Austin's film scene. We happen to be the largest animation house in Texas and we are now starting to feel the impact of this. When I started this company I new that I would have to train my entire team
(There was almost no locale talent) So we started small. We started an internship program with the University of Texas and we approached P.B.S. . Then we only worked on children shows that would help the community (No beer or mouthwash commercials for us). Now I think we are about to reap the rewards for our patience. But it has been painful. Both of my partners and I have put in 18 to 22 hour days 7 days a week for almost a year to do this.

Hollywood wants cheaper labor and all anyone has to do is prove to them that no matter what the job will get done on time and under budget. The days of having to move to California to work are ending. (I grew up there by the way).

Don't Worry be Happy;
Eddie Da Pirate:)

[PaulNewman]

Eddie, nice to get some background info on your venture. Starting small and patiently building it up is usually the best way to go, although frustrating at times. Seems like you'll be serving as an example to a few others on how things are done, with the projects to prove it. Well done and keep at it!

My setup is also small, with my initial focus having been logo's, identities, commercials and infomercials - none of these by choice :shrug:. But on the side my vision for telling stories has only grown and I've developed my writings and now I'm slowly setting up a production pipeline for our own 3D feature film, still doing commercials and freelance Video Toaster editing for a living. That's why I'm keen on messiah and also asking for hair/fur and all the other tools needed.

Now that you mention children's shows, I think back on quite a challenging show I did : a half-hour pilot for a children's TV series with green screen live action inside a virtual set with a simple animated character also interacting with the actors. I designed and realized the virtual set (offline virtual set = non-realtime = render in post production), directed the technical aspect of the live action shoot, wrote a script to provide a GUI to the animator (me) for more easily performing the character animation, did the 3D camera matching, handled the matte extraction and compositing in Digital Fusion, did the video editing, and added effects where required.

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

It sounds really cool. Did you us interlaced video or progressive? The job we are doing now used a 24p camera but we had to develop a custom deartifacting and noise removal process to get really good composites. Did you have to do any of that type of stuff? Also we have found that the lower end cameras don't have a great chroma range so we had to keep the greenscreen shoots pretty bright.

http://www.pirateproductionsstudios.com/PBS_NANCY/PHASE_TWO/pics/P_TWO_SHOT_051_F.jpg

Eddie

[PaulNewman]

Your key looks nice, although the outer edges seems quite soft (likely due to getting rid of some artifacts?) That's not a problem if it holds up while in motion. Unless this was the effect you were going for.

I worked with interlace, although is was BetacamSP, so I had no chroma problems. I even did pseudo shadow casting on the virtual set floor using Digital Fusion and 3D plate tricks.

Best stuff I've worked with for keying has been DigiBeta, and worst was a domestic mini DV on a skimped budget for a pro commercial to be transferred to 35mm film!! You just can't believe what some producers will stoop to for a few extra bucks. On set there was no director and so the effects director (me) became the action director too! Crazy! But that mini DV key was non-existent; came out dark blue off a well lit chroma blue stage. Uh, no pro cameraman either. I think it was the producer's friend's home DV camera. I had to pretty much rotoscope frame by frame to save the production. I should have walked out on the production - but that was in the days when I wouldn't have done that. Now I wouldn't hesitate to tell the people in charge to get it right from the start using proper equipment.

I have found DV problematic for matting unless the lighting was really done well. Another thing that has messed up post production up is a camera with CCD misalignment not noticed during the shoot. The fringing you get then is horrible to solve. If the camera was calibrated to start off with you woudn't have to suffer in post.

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

The softness is 50% that she moving and 50 % me. I have a tendency to try to keep my edges soft. I think our contract sounds like yours was. It's for charity but they have been difficult to work with. They added 70 shots at the last minute (with no additional funds) and their very young director changed my lighting and exposure setting half way through the shoot. But since it is for charity Pirate will complete the job any way. But it has cost us a huge amount of our own funds to complete the job. Sometimes keeping your word can be very exspensive. But Pirate has a perfect track record so far and I am going to do what it takes to keep it that way.

By the way interlaced video is a tough nut to work with. It is very cool that you pulled it off!! CONGRATS TO YOU!

Eddie

[AlexK]

By the way interlaced video is a tough nut to work with. It is very cool that you pulled it off!!
Well, it's harder then progressive, but then you surely want to record interlaced, because (and I know this from Sony) all their progressive cameras record interlaced and then use an algorithm worse then in all compositing softwares to convert the material to progressive internally.
By the way, did you take a look at ReelSmart DeInterlacer? Very good if you are using a comp app that uses AFX plugins. On the other hand shake is great in working with interlaced stuff from beginning to end, so you don't have any conversions.

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

Well I can tell you that not all proressive cameras record interlaced. A lot of them do double some of the frames to keep the standard 29.97 frame rate. this is so the tapes can be played on other decks and so they can use standard motor assemblies in their production. You might want to check out an editing package called "Blade" and if you want to go from interlaced to progresssive you really should check out an after effects plug-in called "Magic Bullet"

It takes fewer muscles to smile then it does to frown;

Eddie

[AlexK]

Damn you are fast Eddie. I wanted to edit my post so nobody notices, but now. :)
While I was in the shower right now it occured to me, that my statement was only true for DV, Beta and DigiBeta. I don't know for 24p. So yes you might be right.

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

I only sleep 3 hours a day. You would be amazed how much you can get done if you don't sleep.
eddie:thumbsup:

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

Hey guys I'm working on a tutorial and I'm trying to make a material that looks like the green gel "Flubber". If anybody has some suggestions or can point me to where i can research it it would be a big help.

Cheers;
eddie:)

[lmilton]

Hey guys I'm working on a tutorial and I'm trying to make a material that looks like the green gel "Flubber". If anybody has some suggestions or can point me to where i can research it it would be a big help.

Cheers;
eddie:)
Flubber? I guess it all starts with translucency. I imagine that a good place to start would be the CandleWax material. In Render mode, hit F5 and double click on the Misc->Organic->CandleWax material.

-lyle

[EDDIEthePIRATE]

Yeah I am really curiouse if bubbles and particulates could be procedurally imbedded in the material.

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