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trygve
08-10-2004, 02:10 PM
http://www.luxology.com is up, with more information on the new modelling program MODO.

Very nice.

mrmartin100
08-10-2004, 02:25 PM
No pricing or ordering information yet, though.

Perhaps after tonight.

tjnyc
08-10-2004, 02:31 PM
It was previously mentioned that the price would be $695 or 795, but that might change with recent events. So far the apps looks great, but I wouldn't call it revolutionary, unless they are keeping the more impressive info for the unveiling.


Cheers,

jrsunshine
08-10-2004, 02:41 PM
There is a press release type article at: http://www.cgnetworks.com/story.php?story_id=2294.


The article states the intro price will be $695. That is way too high in my opinion. LW's modeler is everything I need. Silo is just a few bucks over $100. I didn't expect Lux to price Modo at the $100 price point but did expect them to tease with a decent intro price. At $695, I'll pass on modo and get my token copy of XSI first.

ThomasMahler
08-10-2004, 02:54 PM
I agree, the Modo features seem pretty cool, but I can already do a lot of these things with Silo and Silo gets updated very, very often - And that at a pricetag of 100 bucks...

-JT-
08-10-2004, 02:57 PM
Finally !
I look forward to trying it.
But it's true that 895$ is expensive nowadays (XSi isn't that bad in modelling no ? ;-) )

tjnyc
08-10-2004, 03:02 PM
$895! Woah! I don't know if I would pay that for just a modeler, and especially with SILO at $100. SILO is missing the UV editing and Morphing, but believe me those and much more are coming soon. At that high price point you would think they would also have a NURBS modeling toolset as well.

Lyr
08-10-2004, 03:07 PM
Way over priced.

midosujisen
08-10-2004, 03:23 PM
I can't help but think that this is what Lightwave 8's modeler should have been. Throw in project messiah's animate/studio package, I just think, what if. Too bad these guys all couldn't stay under the same roof. Maybe they all wanted to innovate and it wasn't happening earlier.

Pricing will be key, especially with the XSI bombshell. However, from the write up and the videos, it looks like a wonderful environment.

retinajoy
08-10-2004, 03:30 PM
Judging by the info on their site it certainly looks like an excellent modelling package. However the price puts me off to justify spending that much, especially as the LW modeller that I use is already very good. Maybe the workflow with the cool tools may make it worth while. I guess we will keep our eyes and ears open for more information.

mrmartin100
08-10-2004, 03:31 PM
I seem to remember that there was going to be a crossgrade discount for LW users. Let's hope it's a chunk less than 695.

FKMaster
08-10-2004, 03:33 PM
looks like very cool evolution of the lightwave modeler:thumbsup:.......
and the interface looks great !!:bounce:

but the price.......:eek:.......:sad:

yog
08-10-2004, 03:39 PM
Bad timing on the price.

I wonder if it would have been different if Softimage had anounced their price drop earlier :shrug:

retinajoy
08-10-2004, 03:44 PM
I think Softimage has wrong footed many on their price decrease. I would like to be able to download a demo of Modo and see if it would make a big difference to workflow.

-JT-
08-10-2004, 03:45 PM
I watched the videos, it does look very good, some sort of Lightwave on vitamin C, but nothing revolutionnary yet for such a price.
We'll have to wait and see, but those times are awesome for us passionate users !!!! :D

BinarySoup
08-10-2004, 03:56 PM
well, looking at the videos, it's exactly (well very near atleast) the kind of evolution I was hoping for from lightwave/newtek, and thus it fulfills my expectations, but $695 is as stated WAY overpriced (not to mention $895!), even taking into account the "secret technology" that is to be unveiled at a private viewing. this is a tour de force subdivision modeller, and while I see it as alot better (in my taste) than silo, it's not $595 better. that said, I HOPE they will realise this pricing to be unrealistic and hopefully lower it in time for the software launch in september, not likely though :sad: .

Alan Daniels
08-10-2004, 03:57 PM
$695? Stillborn.

yog
08-10-2004, 04:16 PM
Possibly Luxology's best move would be to claim it was a typing error and drop the price by a couple hundred quickly :D


Then again, Modo has always been billed as being part of a pipeline that integrates with existing tools, which suggests being aimed at a medium to large studio. Would this be overpriced for such a studio, especially if the integration was seamless ?

Dennik
08-10-2004, 04:31 PM
Modo realy feels like home for every Lightwave modeler, it has all the tools and interactivity that is still missing from LW. Although i need to see more to be persuated for trying it, if they make an exchange policy in the future, like giving your lightwave dongle to get a very reduced price, maybe then its worth the purchace. Of course this price would have to include a kick ass animation and rendering system as well.

lestdog
08-10-2004, 04:40 PM
they certainly didn't invest very much for a fast server. The site is slow as hell.

yog
08-10-2004, 04:40 PM
if they make an exchange policy in the future, like giving your lightwave dongle to get a very reduced price, maybe then its worth the purchace. Of course this price would have to include a kick ass animation and rendering system as well.
Heck, even if it was just the modelling package they could have my LW dongle for just a couple hundred less, especially now I have something else to animate/render in :D

yog
08-10-2004, 04:46 PM
Just wondering, with Luxologys talk of an extensible core and other modules, whether the relatively high price (for just a modeller) is because it is also the core product that the other modules will hang off of, a bit like the way Cinema 4D was set up ?

It would make sense, but it would also be a very risky stratagy in the current climate.

StephanD
08-10-2004, 04:52 PM
My opinion is luxology should wait until they have a full 3d modeling,animation and rendering solution to offer,then fix the price of the whole package around 500$.

But that ain't gonna happen.

Gwot
08-10-2004, 05:05 PM
They really will need to lower their price. Everyone will. With XSI foundation being cheaper as a FULL package AND with great modeling tools there's no way I'd pay that kinda money for modo.

leuey
08-10-2004, 05:17 PM
Although I obviously haven't used it - I'm not so sure the price is too high. If it's as fast as they say it is then you will recoup your entire investment if you save just 1 day modelling. It may very well be too high for hobbyists (which is why programs like Silo exist to fill that market space) - but for small, medium or large companies it's not that much. I'll buy it - and I'll make money off of it. At the end of the day a couple hundred bucks less means nothing to me - just less to write off at the end of the year. I'll probably get it instead of upgrade to LW8.


best,

Greg

Nemoid
08-10-2004, 05:24 PM
Just wondering, with Luxologys talk of an extensible core and other modules, whether the relatively high price (for just a modeller) is because it is also the core product that the other modules will hang off of, a bit like the way Cinema 4D was set up ?

It would make sense, but it would also be a very risky stratagy in the current climate.
I tend to agree about this. at their very first presentation at keynote if i remember well (very sorry on the oppoite case) tha name of the manifastation, they among other companies presented new technology and animation was the focus point. then all soon disappeared. But there was steve Jobs to at this meeting of course.then many people mentioned things about a suite of modules and this has been discussed alot too . It's clear that if modo is only a standalone modelling app. the price tag is wrong. But since i think Lux founders and team are very clever, there's surely something wich justifies the price tag.

from what we saw today, modo seems not to be innovative or revolutionary especiallly if compared to silo. but there's probably more to know in the next days.

StephanD
08-10-2004, 05:28 PM
Even Silo will have a hard time coping with Xsi soon(I can't believe I'm comparing both)...

Not to mention some people just prefer modeling in Softimage or wings3D,like me.

Lyr
08-10-2004, 05:32 PM
But since i think Lux founders and team are very clever, there's surely something wich justifies the price tag.


I think the justification for the price tag has more to do with the possibility that Luxology hasn't been generating revenue and it's time for the product to start generating some income.

ThomasMahler
08-10-2004, 05:34 PM
I don't think that Silo is competing with XSI - Silo is an extremely cheap, extremely cool modeler, XSI is a whole animation package for 5 times the price you pay for Silo. For example, my main animation package is Maya, but I'm modeling with Silo. I'd have absolutely no intention of buying XSI, only because it's cheaper now. Silo is great at what it's doing and at it's pricetag it doesn't compete with anything.

tjnyc
08-10-2004, 05:38 PM
Even Silo will have a hard time coping with Xsi soon(I can't believe I'm comparing both)...

I don't see that happening. SILO offers tools that XSI doesn't like the new topology brush, which is a great time saver among other things. It is also easier to intregrate into a production pipeline than XSI. Not to mention all the other secret cool stuff SILO developers are working on, stuff that most apps don't have and they deliver in a very timely fashion.


Cheers,

StephanD
08-10-2004, 05:39 PM
Thomas I understand your point.

If I wouldn't have used Xsi in the last 4-6 months I'd probably wouldn't be interested by this offer but once you've tasted Xsi's modeling workflow,you're ready to pay 10 times Silo's price.Not to mention it's a complete package.

ThomasMahler
08-10-2004, 05:51 PM
Did you already try Silo? It's perfect for what it's been built for and there isn't a "mammoth" working in the backgorund. It's just a really nice modeler that lets you do exactly that: Modeling.

Most people don't need what XSI would offer them. I'm sure XSI is great, but Silo has absolutely nothing to do with XSI. Silo is more focused on people who are not satisfied with modeling inside their animation Package. As I already said, I don't think Silo is competing with XSI at all.

And for Modo: Well, I think it's way overpriced. No one pays that price for a Modeler nowadays. Even if Modo is going to be more than just a modeler, I don't care. I pay for what it is today and it seems that it's a cool modeler with a very, very hefty pricetag...

FKMaster
08-10-2004, 05:51 PM
but the best thing is an the webpage of modo:
http://www.luxology.com/modo/content.aspx

"How much would you pay for these models (and more) on a stock 3D content site? $999? $1999? More? There’s no need! These models ship ready for action, and they’re included at no extra charge when you buy modo."

sound like selling cars...........very funny :scream:

futuretheory
08-10-2004, 05:57 PM
Maybe it's a bit overpriced, maybe it's not. No one here seems to have addressed the fact that it may be the best modeler available for OS X...that's worth something to those of us trying to make the switch. They are are shipping both windows and mac versions on the same disk, so that's like 2 licenses to someone like me. Worth a closer look.

juanjgon
08-10-2004, 06:04 PM
I think that people are really wrong about cost of 3D applications ... if you use your 3D application for hobby i can undestand that you decide use one package of 100$ and not one of 600$ to work ... but if you are a professional, come on ... i need simple the best modeling package for my work ... speak of 600$ or 700$ for your main work application is not money if your get a better workflow or simple spent less time to make a model or you can model faster ...

I think sometimes that most people of this forums work in 3D as hobby ... if you think about a apllication of 100$ or an aplication of 6000$ i could undestand ... but not in this price range ...

But it is only my opinion ... for me 600$ for the program wich i work 50% of my time is no money if it is that i need ... personally i think that i will try modo, perhaps to switch from LW modeler ....

Dennik
08-10-2004, 06:10 PM
I think that people are really wrong about cost of 3D applications ... if you use your 3D application for hobby i can undestand that you decide use one package of 100$ and not one of 600$ to work ... but if you are a professional, come on ... i need simple the best modeling package for my work ... speak of 600$ or 700$ for your main work application is not money if your get a better workflow or simple spent less time to make a model or you can model faster ...

I think sometimes that most people of this forums work in 3D as hobby ... if you think about a apllication of 100$ or an aplication of 6000$ i could undestand ... but not in this price range ...

But it is only my opinion ... for me 600$ for the program wich i work 50% of my time is no money if it is that i need ... personally i think that i will try modo, perhaps to switch from LW modeler ....
So true. The current price is a joke for a freelancer. You make these money and more from a single project. Somebody mentioned $500 for a complete package? If i was a programer at Luxology i would laugh for such a proposed price.

juanjgon
08-10-2004, 06:30 PM
People dont know the work that there is under a 3D application ... i think that these money war only work if you sell thousands or even millions of copys of a program, like in video games or Microsoft soft, etc .... but this is a very closed market ... i think that 600$ for the work under MODO is a very good start point if it resolve my needs ...

XSI Foundation for 495$ is simple incredible for this package ... i am sure that if SI only sell licenses of foundation they cant support development of soft ... but they think that sure most people could buy Essentials, who has a more real price range ...

I hope that 3D soft industry dont kill himself with this price war ... i want a live software, with new features and good support ... and with video game or windows price range this is simple imposible ....

Miyazaki
08-10-2004, 07:34 PM
Will there be any cross grade pricing for existing owners of Lightwave , Maya , XSI , etc.

Because of the number of years we spent in the Lightwave community , there will be a "friends and family" upgrade price for Lightwave end users , including a special bonus for users of Lightwave 8.

I hope this wasnīt just idle talk. 400$, thatīs the limit

BinarySoup
08-10-2004, 07:51 PM
juanjgon wrote:
I think sometimes that most people of this forums work in 3D as hobby ... if you think about a apllication of 100$ or an aplication of 6000$ i could undestand ... but not in this price range ... oh, I am CERTAIN that the bulk of the 100.000 users here on cgchat are in fact hobbyists that hope to break into the industry (me included), and for me atleast, a $695 price tag is not realistic for a subdivision modeler, and I don't see it as a joke price for a freelancer either (since I've done some freelance work), how many $695 projects do you do in a month?. to me, only medium/large companies and warez kiddies can laugh away at $695-$895 for nothing but a (albeit great) subdivision modeler, and I'd say companies or their employees aren't exactly the majority of the users here at cgchat, (not too sure about warez kiddies though, seems I'm one of few who can't afford expensive software these days).

mbaldwin
08-10-2004, 08:11 PM
I'll scrape the money together and buy it. From the vids, it's the best modeler I've seen to-date.

show me more!

Nemoid
08-10-2004, 08:37 PM
Well, I apprciate the fact that the market offers different solutions for different targets right now.
Silo for who wants a low price tag and a standalone good modeler, wich does only that, and Modo for who wants a different price tag modeler wich could also be something more that this.

Who will win depends from the supported technology and how much users like using it and how many copies it sells.

At Lyr : good point BTW. Lux was founded some time ago and needs money for sure, but many copies mean money as well. Notice that Silo started with $109 and there was not before, it was a new product.Then it evolved in such a rapid and good way to become sort of a leader into modelling compartment and will continue like this for sure.

For this reason many users complain of the expensive Modo price tag and for this i believe there's more to know about this puppy and Lux projects.

The price is not completely justified and the models given with Modo, despite being very interesting especially for a noob don't completely justify IMHO the price tag.
A real modeler professional would ask for a cheaper version without them the exact second he knows there' isn't more than showed till now because no one wants to spend his money with just free models if he's able to model by himself.

If the price was $200 or something i'd not dare to argue that there's more, but such a difference tells me something.

I'd say let's wait some day and more infos about Modo will come during Siggraph. :thumbsup:

Oh and despite my statements seeming rants they're not. my only point is we dunno all about Modo and lux projects yet.

So great job so far Lux guys and keep on rocking like this.

Renderman_XSI
08-10-2004, 08:46 PM
Thomas I understand your point.

If I wouldn't have used Xsi in the last 4-6 months I'd probably wouldn't be interested by this offer but once you've tasted Xsi's modeling workflow,you're ready to pay 10 times Silo's price.Not to mention it's a complete package.
Modo isnt what i expect it, but it looks promising. the down side is it doesnt offer basic transformation with more options. All assumptions base on the video.

Modo,xsi,3dsmax,etc all dont seem to offer that low level transformation that Mirai does. Try this XSI or in your favorite 3Dapp. select a edge, now try to move that edge on the same select edge segment, or try to move that same edge base on another edge direction on the mesh. Effectively, Mirai has many low level function about 7-8, compare to XSI scale,rotate,translate,temp pivot. Moreover you can combine the low level function to perform unique functions. Base on the video this is what modo lacks, along with every other 3DCG app. The pipetool is great, but maybe its meant combining high level operation.

Ejecta
08-10-2004, 08:50 PM
I think that people are really wrong about cost of 3D applications ... if you use your 3D application for hobby i can undestand that you decide use one package of 100$ and not one of 600$ to work ... but if you are a professional, come on ... i need simple the best modeling package for my work ... speak of 600$ or 700$ for your main work application is not money if your get a better workflow or simple spent less time to make a model or you can model faster ...

I think sometimes that most people of this forums work in 3D as hobby ... if you think about a apllication of 100$ or an aplication of 6000$ i could undestand ... but not in this price range ...

But it is only my opinion ... for me 600$ for the program wich i work 50% of my time is no money if it is that i need ... personally i think that i will try modo, perhaps to switch from LW modeler ....
Thats the truth. Plus, IMHO most of the people who get all tweaked when you say something negative about thier favorite app like you called thie mom a dog are mainly hobby 3D artists. To make it clear, "hobby 3D artist" isnt a slam. Ive seen some awsome "hobby" work the blew away some "pro" work. However thier perspective of tools and thier costs are very different becasue it is about time and money with pros and not a factor with the hobby folk.

Ejecta
08-10-2004, 08:54 PM
juanjgon wrote:
and I don't see it as a joke price for a freelancer either (since I've done some freelance work), how many $695 projects do you do in a month?. to me, only medium/large companies and warez kiddies can laugh away at $695-$895 for nothing but a (albeit great) subdivision modeler, and I'd say companies or their employees aren't exactly the majority of the users here at cgchat, (not too sure about warez kiddies though, seems I'm one of few who can't afford expensive software these days). You may want to reconsider what you are charging for freelance work then. I can easily pay for modo with freelance work. As far as sutdio size goes, we are small house and could easily afford modo if it saves us time.

Cyberdigitus
08-10-2004, 08:57 PM
It's too much indeed. I've always felt they should be below the magic 500$, even before the xsi pricedrop anouncement. I wonder though how many would have felt that way if they didn't heard about that anouncement, and actually, now that a complete package is that much, modo can't really afford to be even that. so let's say 400$-450$ with some goodies. that ánd release information on what the strategy is with the next modules and how they will work together, so company's as well as hobyists can see how their investment will improve into a kick ass suite.

since it's not out yet anyway luxology should have waited a bit with mentioning the price. well actually they did take it away, so maybe the quick reflexes of the board are at fault. easy to say that in retrospect though. either way, announcing a new product and it's pricepoint and then immediately lowering it, doesn't give a good impression. but by all means, do :)

it's a pitty that the announcement only leads to a discusion about the price though. As expected it looks like an amazingly fun and smooth modeler to work with, i hope to see a demo soon. one thing that cought my attention however, is that they said to support many 3d formats, but the export menu seems pretty bare. i had at least expected kayadara FBX in there...

anyway, with the news that kaydara has been bought out, i actually couldn't care less and want to see luxology's animation module now! :twisted:

Something else that has been mentioned, is the slow site. That give a bad impression indeed, they could have expected a lot of traffic given the hype that had build around it. and i cringe to see such a simple web layout still using tables for layout anno 2004. there are actually lots of layout errors on the - otherwise well designed - site.

yog
08-10-2004, 08:57 PM
Modo isnt what i expect it, but it looks promising. the down side is it doesnt offer basic transformation with more options. All assumptions base on the video.

Modo,xsi,3dsmax,etc all dont seem to offer that low level transformation that Mirai does. Try this XSI or in your favorite 3Dapp. select a edge, now try to move that edge on the same select edge segment, or try to move that same edge base on another edge direction on the mesh..Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, isn't it just a matter in XSI of just selecting REF mode and picking the same or another edge in order to make that the local co-ordinate system ?

AmbientLight
08-10-2004, 09:22 PM
Their server seem to be overloaded at the moment. So I watched a couple of videos only... But anyway.

ZBrush is a revolutionary application. Silo is a revolutionary for its price tag and level of support from developers. MODO seems to be an evolutionary application. It doesn't seem to offer anything that makes me wanna start drooling uncotrollably.

yog
08-10-2004, 10:27 PM
One small titbit I just picked up from reading the Kaydara MB6 press release, Luxology are listed as one of the companies supporting the FBX file format. Should make transfering models easier :)

azazel
08-10-2004, 10:51 PM
Modo,xsi,3dsmax,etc all dont seem to offer that low level transformation that Mirai does. Try this XSI or in your favorite 3Dapp. select a edge, now try to move that edge on the same select edge segment, or try to move that same edge base on another edge direction on the mesh..
You mean like vector moves in wings ? move, rotate, scale along edges, edge face vertex normals etc ? So far the morphs in modo look nice to me, since wings doesn't support 'em yet.

mushroomgod
08-10-2004, 11:34 PM
does anyone know if its going to have splines and snapping?

BigJay
08-11-2004, 12:05 AM
I won't pass judgement till I have a demo in my hands.

As for price Animanium was $1000 and didn't even have motionbuilder's functionality

The intro price or crossgrade I would hope to be closer to the magic $500. Then again with cinema4D and XSI there with advanced tools it makes modo more of an oddball. again without details on what I get for $700-900 I will have to wait to see if it is worth it to me.

gustojunk
08-11-2004, 12:43 AM
I think it makes no sense at this point to say the price is too high, or too low. All we know of Modo is the name, some price point speculation and that is a SubD modeler. I personally don't know if Modo will make me X % more or less productive that my currect workflow. So I cannot say if the price that I'd be willing to pay for that package is $20, $200 or $2000.

All I have to say to the Lux people is: Let me demo it for 30 days and they I can make an informed business decision and post here an informed opinion about the pricing.

ages
08-11-2004, 01:14 AM
Modo has real edges?
instancing and history?

kidcodea
08-11-2004, 01:15 AM
after years of wait its here! and it rocks as expected! finally someone with the balls to break from the corporate leech and keep the cutting edge attitude. i couldnt be happier to see the white glove slap at newtek from the men that actually made newtek flagship products. its a well deserved slap and i hope it hurts (maybe they learn with it).
thats what you get for not hearing to clients, not numbers, but people.
thanks for the effort and courage luxology people. i've already recommended the tool around some game developers and hope to have a creative blast with it asap.

leuey
08-11-2004, 01:16 AM
From what I've been picking up it does seem that the hobby crowd feels modo is too expensive. I find that a little shocking (I guess they would find photoshop too expensive too since it's about the same price...), not all software is for hobbyists you know - but nevertheless it seems to be the case. Maybe they will lower the price to around $500 once the early adopters buy it. I think you have to keep in mind the Modo is being presented as a professional app aimed at people and companies that make money. < $1,000 is a steal if you ask me, but if you're a student or just like modelling for fun - then yeah, it's expensive.

-Greg

mav3rick
08-11-2004, 01:27 AM
6XX bucks for preorder of fully working modeler is ok by me specially due i do serious work... i think this can be payed off with single project (small one) and most of all my head will hurt me less when i change it for LW MODELER..... modo is way to go!!! can't wait to grab it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thank you luxology

AmbientLight
08-11-2004, 01:31 AM
From what I've been picking up it does seem that the hobby crowd feels modo is too expensive. I find that a little shocking (I guess they would find photoshop too expensive too since it's about the same price...)

Bad example. Photoshop is a feature complete application. By the other hand stand alone modeler is just that... stand alone modeler. It is not very useful for many people w/o renderer and animation part.

, not all software is for hobbyists you know - but nevertheless it seems to be the case. Maybe they will lower the price to around $500 once the early adopters buy it. I think you have to keep in mind the Modo is being presented as a professional app aimed at people and companies that make money. < $1,000 is a steal if you ask me, but if you're a student or just like modelling for fun - then yeah, it's expensive.
Please define "professional application". Price tag, IMHO, doesn't define professionalism of an application. As the matter of fact I don't believe there's such thing as professional and unprofessional software. It is as professional as its user.

Companies don't like throw money on the wind either. If they do, they don't survive for long. Didn't we learn anything from few years ago?

ages
08-11-2004, 01:35 AM
I will buy Mojo if it does wat modeller dont..

leuey
08-11-2004, 02:29 AM
[edited b/c I was being kind of a jerk] I think you missed my point. Photoshop is a professional program used by people to make money - that's the point. Not a feature comparison. In a developer's mind there IS a difference between a hobbyist app and a pro one - and the price IS a defining aspect of that. Modo wasn't made w/ the hobbyist in mind, if it was it obviously wouldn't be $695, right? Pretty simple.

If you can make money off of cheaper or free programs, more power to you (seriously). I'm not really sure what you mean by throw money to the wind.

For the pro's out there that are in need of what modo has to offer (and if they need it I assume they have their rendering and animation bases covered) - $695 isn't expensive. There are plug-ins more expensive than Modo. A single render license for MR is 3 times as expensive as modo. G2 + FPrime costs more than Modo. It's about $200 more than ZBrush but is probably more usefull as a general purpose modeler. You can get both Modo and ZBrush for like $1,200. That's about the low end of 1 days rate for a small shop or high end for a freelancer. Not bad...

Now, if you're a hobbyist then there's plenty of capable apps that fill that segment (silo, wings, etc). That doesn't mean you can't make money w/ those - but w/ a Pro. App. and the extra price you do expect more support, documentation, and fewer bugs. There is a difference - expectations are different.

-Greg


Bad example. Photoshop is a feature complete application. By the other hand stand alone modeler is just that... stand alone modeler. It is not very useful for many people w/o renderer and animation part.


Please define "professional application". Price tag, IMHO, doesn't define professionalism of an application. As the matter of fact I don't believe there's such thing as professional and unprofessional software. It is as professional as its user.

Companies don't like throw money on the wind either. If they do, they don't survive for long. Didn't we learn anything from few years ago?

Renderman_XSI
08-11-2004, 02:30 AM
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, isn't it just a matter in XSI of just selecting REF mode and picking the same or another edge in order to make that the local co-ordinate system ? The most interesting thing about Modo has to be the Tool Pipe. Doesn't 3DSmax do something like this with its modifier stack?? you are correct, :) now try that same thing but move it base on 2 points, or 4 points? The consistency of the submenu can be applied to other higher feature, something most other app lack. There are also many more useful basic options, free scale is something i use all the time. It lets us scale object in X,Y at the same time, and if needed Z(this is not the same as scaling base on a plane, and you dont have too click..its all done in the mouse movement, move your mouse left<-->right to scale on X, up and down to scale on Y, middle mouse click for Z).

My point is the Toop Pipe is hella cool, it lets you combine high level tools to create unique tools, but does Modo address the need to combine basic, low level function thru the Tool Pipe also, or ala Mirai(which is simplier but works fine)? They already address the high level tools, but if they address the lower ones..thats the selling point for me.

Either way, im gonna try the demo and see how the workflow is:D. Supposely, you can work in one viewport window to model in Modo? Hopefully we have the option to switch to orthographic view uponing switching to front,right,top,etc views!!

Brettzies
08-11-2004, 02:32 AM
MODO looks pretty sweet to me. The thing that impresses me the most is that they've put some thought into the interface and customizabilty of the interface. This is more like what I was hoping for when Lightwave went from 5.6 to 6.0 Something NEW, yet familiar. These days I'm more into Maya, but I have always liked modeler in LW for lots of reasons, and if MODO bridges the gap, I'm all for it.

As far as price goes, seeing as only the modeling portion is "almost ready" now, I can't see it costing more then $500 no matter what you are, hobbyist or pro.

nuclearfessel
08-11-2004, 02:36 AM
...snip...

Either way, im gonna try the demo and see how the workflow is:D.
is there going to be a demo available for Modo?

Cman
08-11-2004, 03:54 AM
Looks like what the LW8 modeler should've been, imho.

jrsunshine
08-11-2004, 04:18 AM
Well... I have finally gotten an opportunity to watch the videos from the Lux site.

WOW !! Holy freaking... WOW !!

I could have easily looked at modo on the surface and said... ah... I got LW 8 modeler. Modo has an incredible design and workflow. The innovative interface is probably the coolest thing about the software. And then the great modeling features.. of course.

I am going to consider seriously getting modo. The beg thing for me is the price. It is very hard to justify purchasing a modeler for $700. I'm not sure the features are worth that much. I could be wrong (and probably am wrong), but so far a lot of people feel the same way. Time will of couse tell when sales take off or drop like a rock.

Flog
08-11-2004, 05:31 AM
How much would you pay for these models (and more) on a stock 3D content site? $999? $1999? More? There’s no need! These models ship ready for action, and they’re included at no extra charge when you buy modo.



Hahahahaha!!! 30 bucks tops for those models at DAZ or something, lol.

NOw the program itself, hey if its to expensive for you don't buy it. If you want to spend your money on it, then go for it.

Personally it is a lot of money to me for a modeller, when I can get Cinema 4d for that that much, zbrush 2.0 for a little less, and wings3d for nothing. They are all pro tools one way or another. 695 for a modeller only, ouchie.

well you guys who buy it have fun.
As for me, I'm sticking with zbrush as my next purchase and wings3d as always.

Larrikin
08-11-2004, 05:58 AM
Hey Luxulogy, Modo ain't no Zbrush - it's more a Silo. Market says that's worth $100 (and falling).
Please tell us after enduring 2.5 years of hype that you've got more than this re-invented wheel.

Snosrap
08-11-2004, 06:18 AM
Well guy's I got this (insert LW8 screenshot here) when I could have had this (insert Modo screenshot here). And why? All because of what we are seeing in the 3D marketplace now - companies competing for, not a small PIECE of the pie, just a very small pie. For a few years during the 90's the 3D pie grew at a slow but steady pace with new 3D enthusiasts and professionals. With the internet bubble burst and the slowing down of the economy it was only natural for companies to take a look at their businesses and see where they could streamline to stay competitive. Newtek was no different than any other for profit company, cut costs, stay profitable, stay in business. Their mistake was simply their decision on where to cut costs, and not understanding basic human nature. And that is people make roots. We like the routine. I would presume that it would have been fairly easy to find video engineers in the Bay-Silicon Valley- Area. Tim made a decision some of his employee's didn't like, so we get more bakers and the pie doesn't get any bigger. LW8 is a nice tool, our company is committed to it. It will improve I'm sure. It just looks like #$^%^!* especially when you compare it to some of the other options out there.


Cheers

the snos

Rigley
08-11-2004, 08:30 AM
If somebody has some info about Luxology's VIP event, please share with us. I'm starving for some more info.
Thanks! :)

yinako
08-11-2004, 08:38 AM
Looks neat! it even supports Maya Ascii.

However I hope they put tablet support in to it, that double click on edge thing would be hard for tablets.

snku
08-11-2004, 09:39 AM
i think modo looks great, though i am not sure about the price. a the thing to remember is, there are only so many studios, and there are a LOT more hobbyists out there, and it is the hobbyists of a few years ago that are making movies/games/commercials today. most of them probably learned the hard way, in school without really learning much at home because software was too expensive. now that it's more possible than ever for hobbyists to afford software i think it's very important to start thinking about the wider user base that is the hobbyists as opposed to the studios.

i could be wrong and probably am, but i think this is what softimage is doing with their insane recent price drop. though they have a fairly big user base, i am not sure the numbers compare to that of maya, max, etc. so what better way to get a bigger userbase than make the price affordable for the hobbyist who after a few years of living like a hermit will create mind blowing models/animations/etc at ilm.

i do understand the work that goes into creating software and the price of $700 is reasonable for the amount of work put into modo, but given a smaller price tag, they would have thousands of hobbyists drooling, rather than a small group of people and a few studios intrigued by it. maybe i am crazy, but wouldn't that give them more sales and give them a better rep?

Limbus
08-11-2004, 09:51 AM
I think the price seems so high because of apps like silo, z-brush and XSI Foundation are cheaper. Thats competition. But maybe Lux will reveal some super cool extra at sig...
This could be a animation package (like the stuff they showed at the Apple G5 presentation) or an integation of project messiah (maybe with a nice low price for both apps).
Hopefully someone has attended that secret meeting and can talk about it.

Florian

Beamtracer
08-11-2004, 01:44 PM
Yeay, Modo!!! Whoo hoo!!!


A lot of the people criticizing Modo are Lightwave users. Poor souls. If you don't think Modo's worth it, then I wish you all the best with Lightwave Modeler.

FKMaster
08-11-2004, 02:33 PM
after watching all videos.........---> iīll buy it.......!
its feel an great workflow and save time for "every day modeling jobs"....
much better than my lightwave8 modeler.......

cremegg
08-11-2004, 02:36 PM
Wasn't it mentioned during a Q and A with Brad Peebler that LightWave users would be elligable for a discount?

Seems my memory recalled correctly....

Will there be any cross grade pricing for existing owners of Lightwave , Maya , XSI , etc.

Because of the number of years we spent in the Lightwave community , there will be a "friends and family" upgrade price for Lightwave end users , including a special bonus for users of Lightwave 8.
The decline in innovation in LightWaves modeler (Both features and technological improvements) means I'm eager to at least try Modo, although like others $695/895 seems a little steep.

fez
08-11-2004, 03:05 PM
Modo does indeed make Modeler look old and tired. But does it work with the HUB? Can we leverage Layout displacements? Can we "save transformed"? Are there Max and Maya compatible skelegons? Can we assign weight maps to skelegons? It helps to have a modeler hacked into an animation environment (Lightwave). Or fully integrated for that matter (XSI and Max). Nothing screws up workflow more than endless importing and exporting...

This is not to say I am not excited by what I see.

I personally am dissapointed with Lightwave 8 development. The Siggraph silence is especially disturbing.

mbaldwin
08-11-2004, 03:30 PM
Bad example. Photoshop is a feature complete application. By the other hand stand alone modeler is just that... stand alone modeler. It is not very useful for many people w/o renderer and animation part.

I don't think the comparison is that off-base. Having photoshop doesn't obviate the need for a vector-based illustration program, a page layout program, a web layout program, etc.

'complete' 3d software is GINORMOUS, where the company's desire to design consistently great functionality is almost impossible due to the scope of the task. Maybe the market's maturing a bit, as we see companies like Lux drilling down within specific aspects of 3d in order to deliver compelling software. User interface issues are not a trifle. Modelling apps are the closest software that I've ever used where success is measured by your ability to play it like a musical instrument(Ableton's LIVE succeeds by the same criteria).The proof will be in the demo, but from what I've seen, Modo seems to mark the full-flowering of at least a specific aspect of 3d.

Baby all grow'd up.

Dennik
08-11-2004, 03:59 PM
Modo does indeed make Modeler look old and tired. But does it work with the HUB? Can we leverage Layout displacements? Can we "save transformed"? Are there Max and Maya compatible skelegons? Can we assign weight maps to skelegons? It helps to have a modeler hacked into an animation environment (Lightwave). Or fully integrated for that matter (XSI and Max). Nothing screws up workflow more than endless importing and exporting...

This is not to say I am not excited by what I see.

I personally am dissapointed with Lightwave 8 development. The Siggraph silence is especially disturbing.
Skelegons were made up to fix the bottleneck in the connection between Modeler and Layout. They are a WORKAROUND. They created skelegons and when they saw that they weren't much of an innovation, they bought Ortho tools for Layout so that you have skelegon like manipulation of bones in Layout. No... If Modo should be connected to Lightwave, it should provide options to export a complete skeleton and rig directly to layout, and it would be even cooler if it allowed writing expressions that are compatible with Lightwave.
After all those years i'm personally fed up with Lightwave being divided to two different applications. (HUB doesn't solve the problem) Especially when you rig, going back and forth between modeler and layout, can be nerve damaging experience.

I think the only strategy for Newtek would be to ditch lightwave for good, and help Luxology in all their efforts to create something new like Modo is. To me, seeing Modo, feels like home. Its like combining the best of Lightwave and Maya modeling capabilities and even more. And i'm sorry if i sound harsh, but i just can't continue investing in "workaround, 3rd party plugin packed" updates. :shrug:

thedaemon
08-11-2004, 04:18 PM
Well, I have tried LW, and I have to say the modeling workflow really messed me up not allowing n-gons. Modo, on the other hand, seems to be what I was looking for in LW. I hope it works as good as the video's show it doing.

mbaldwin
08-11-2004, 04:32 PM
on the issue of bones/rigs:

my only regret in seeing Modo 1.0 is the apparent absence of a skeletal deformation system, one that then could be saved out with the model and used as the basis for the model's rig in a layout environment. I never understood why you would want to separate the act of modeling from the act of skeletal deformations. Marai had this functionality, Silo seems to be soon to incorporate it as well. My vote would be for Lux to get it on in there.

Seeing how Lux's developer's lineage come largely from Newtek, I'm also very curious to see if Stuart, Hastings & co. have eradicated the nasty problem of SubD UV distortions. Given that Modo is new from the ground up, I'm hopeful.

Dennik
08-11-2004, 04:40 PM
It seems that Modo is going to make up for all things LW modeler can't do. I just wish they had started the development many years earlier, release a couple of maintainance patches for LW6, and move to a totally new app. I mean look at how Softimage evolved to XSI or 3D Studio evolved to MAX, Lightwave must be the oldest code on a 3D app, that survives up to date.

AmbientLight
08-11-2004, 04:52 PM
I don't think the comparison is that off-base. Having photoshop doesn't obviate the need for a vector-based illustration program, a page layout program, a web layout program, etc.
There we go. Unlike another person who replied to my comment, you actually got my point. Yes, I agree you may need other applications if you use PS. But you may not.. In case of MODO, you have to have another software to deliver your final product. It is even marketed as a tool for existing production pipelines.

I'm rather sceptical, because Lux have been hyping it for so long. I'm pretty sure poor LightWave users would like a better modeler. But I don't see anything revolutionary even if I put my glasses on. Besides just like others pointed out, there are other options and if the price tag is going to be THAT high... Hmm.. I really don't know.

thedaemon
08-11-2004, 04:58 PM
Bones are really useful when modeling. Say you have a character build up, and add a bone structure, and deform the arm (rotate) and then add more detail to the armpit, then return the bone back to default. Lots of other reasons why bones are useful when modeling, including testing deformation/edge flow early on can save time in the long run.

leuey
08-11-2004, 05:02 PM
Ambient - no offense but you're still stuck on seeing this from a single users perspective. I hire people to do my modelling. That's all they do. All they need is a modelling program. Modo is a beginning and an end to many users and especially many companies. If you have dedicated modelling workstations and use, let's say Maya to model. Then you're paying a min. of $2,000 per workstation. Just for the modellers. Modo is less than half that - and will probably be better. And that scenerio doesn't just work for small companies. I contract freelancers who work on their own machines for modelling jobs only. All they would need is a mid range workstation and 1 program. The 'final product' is often a model - and they would re-coup their investment in less than 2 days. All this is moot b/c I was merely trying to make the point that the professional app space is different than the hobbyist space. They cost more to develop, more to support, and they need more $ from the user. That was my point - I should obviously have never mentioned photoshop.

On the flip side, I also think a lot of people (I'm not talking to you here, just a general observation) nowedays are trying to take the fast track to working in this industry. You need to make an investment in time AND money. Working in 3D animation is just like any other professional occupation. You wouldn't see a lawyer or an accountant or a pharmacist complain about a $700 investment if it was the means to a career. Being able to 'teach yourself' in an envious position to be in and the cost of entry has dropped off a cliff the last few years, I hardly feel for anybody who has to drop less than a grand to pursure a career - if you're serious about it it's a miniscule small sacrifce.

-Greg



There we go. Unlike another person who replied to my comment, you actually got my point. Yes, I agree you may need other applications if you use PS. But you may not.. In case of MODO, you have to have another software to deliver your final product. It is even marketed as a tool for existing production pipelines.

I'm rather sceptical, because Lux have been hyping it for so long. I'm pretty sure poor LightWave users would like a better modeler. But I don't see anything revolutionary even if I put my glasses on. Besides just like others pointed out, there are other options and if the price tag is going to be THAT high... Hmm.. I really don't know.

cremegg
08-11-2004, 05:08 PM
And i'm sorry if i sound harsh, but i just can't continue investing in "workaround, 3rd party plugin packed" updates. :shrug:

Couldn't agree more

AmbientLight
08-11-2004, 05:44 PM
Greg,

No offense taken. I see you what you are saying but I don't see why MODO, why not other options? Check out another thread in the News section. I bet Weta can afford more expensive modeling software. But they use Silo...

Personally I already invested more then enough money. and keep investing, because of hardware/software upgrades. I'm not here to donate money to software companies. I'm here to get a margin for what I do. Besides less I spend on software/hardware, less money I'll indirectly pass onto somebody else.. say my own customer? But right now, it's up in the air. We actually don't even know how much Luxology will ask for their product. I can't say that I have read about it and seen a lot of videos, either. Luxology keeps it rather secret. It is very strange to me. How can general public make an educated opinion, if there's not enough info? They show some stuff here and there, but that's about it. Sure, closed sessions for chosen group of people are ok. One problem though, it is most likely fanboi crowd. Well, maybe they enjoy being praised...

visualride
08-11-2004, 06:01 PM
Sorry to anyone in advance about my following crude input, but it has to be said.

Doesn't all this talk about needing to spend extra cash seem kind of masochistic to anyone else? I can't help hearing all those here with any sense of (crude) humor thinking:
"I don't care how much it costs. Sure we'll just bend over and take it up the [blip], and like it".

Sorry again, for this interuption. Carry on.

Nemoid
08-11-2004, 07:32 PM
I seriously hope the Modo price will be not so high as expected and rumoured if all it is is a standalone program.

I can really understand that Lw's modeler is outdated and has many lacks like ngons, edges, more functional edge tools. though, for organic modelling it can be done proficiently with box modelling or poly by poly technique with the current tools for sure and in not so much time.

The real important problems come when the tools Lw lacks come to be useful, for example for design objects technical , cars etc. modelling, where, since the mesh normally doesn't deform, ngons can be used to get a cleaner and more efficient mesh with less polygons, and the same is valid for edge weighting and creasing.

The thing to consider is that Silo too does the same things wich Modo seems to offer from what its showed, plus it has the new tool wich allows to directly redraw your polyflow in your mesh into an efficient way,( a tool wich modo seem not to offer but i could be wrong) a customizable UI and it costs only $100.

So, if Modo is only what is showed , its price can't be high, because this would be quite a suicide. at its start, Silo was $109.So low price from the start.

Ergo : to go with a such supposed high price, Modo has to actually be something more than what its currently showed.

kiwi123
08-11-2004, 08:15 PM
There we go. Unlike another person who replied to my comment, you actually got my point. Yes, I agree you may need other applications if you use PS. But you may not.. In case of MODO, you have to have another software to deliver your final product. It is even marketed as a tool for existing production pipelines..
Nonsense, in medium / big studios there are enough people who are specialised in modeling. They do nothing else all day. Why would they need rendering capability or even animation tools ? For generic artists however, just modeling isn't enough. Isn't it great that you can have better capabilities to do this task in Modo if your generic software of choice isn't as good at modeling ? Unlike a lot of other people, I actually always liked the split between layout and modeller in LW, keeps your tools pure, optimised and focused.

I'm pretty sure poor LightWave users would like a better modeler.
I have worked with Lightwave, Max and Maya professionally for years. I can tell you that for me, modeling is better in Lightwave than in Max or Maya, much quicker to get what you need. If modo could deliver even better efficiency, I'll grab it with both hands. At this time I think Lightwaves biggest deficiency is character animation, and it always has been dreadful. Luckily Messiah came along.

Anyway, I use Maya at work, but still rather use LW for modeling. Maya is a fantastic piece of software, it's got really good qualities. But like ANY other tool, it's got it's drawbacks too. I personally think modeling and rendering are the weak points for maya. I would definately like a solution for those weak points. If that means an external application then so be it. I'll use whatever tool suits the jobs best (if it's price is reasonable).

I will ditch LW in favour of MODO, certainly if it has better integration with Maya. And I am sure it will be a good tool to add to our toolchain, seeing it will enable people with backgrounds in Max, Maya and LW to pick up this tool quickly all in their own favourite way of working.

Nando
08-11-2004, 08:41 PM
kiwi123,

I think Modo is right for you.
1. It exports *.MA files
2. Modo can do embeded morph/blend shapes, and output those in the .Ma file.
3. The interface is fully customizable and already has key shortcuts for Maya(hotbox), and LW.
4. Macros are nice addition which can be used kinda like photoshop recorded actions. (quickest way I could explain it, sorry)
5. The Modeling tools are up to par with other Subdivision aplications, but what I noticed is this...... Modo is Elegant in the workflow/feel/Speed.
6. The Future?? I was there yesterday at the technology Demo, From what I saw my Jaw dropped, drool, and then I was reaching into my pocket to give Brad cash right there and then.
Not sure if we can mention what we saw, so until I get clarification or I see a pres release of what we saw, I am not posting any info. If you want to know what I saw talk to me at Sigg, or in person ;)

Oh and the speed of the Modeler is so great Opengl runs so nice on those G5's, and I know that the Mac opengl is not the greatest compared to other PC Options. so one can imagine what a PC with a super fast Nvdia 6800 dual Opteron would dooo.
I sold my Lightwave seat, and am not thinking twice about it.
Change is good
:grin:

AmbientLight
08-11-2004, 08:50 PM
Nonsense, in medium / big studios there are enough people who are specialised in modeling. They do nothing else all day. Why would they need rendering capability or even animation tools ? For generic artists however, just modeling isn't enough. Isn't it great that you can have better capabilities to do this task in Modo if your generic software of choice isn't as good at modeling ? Unlike a lot of other people, I actually always liked the split between layout and modeller in LW, keeps your tools pure, optimised and focused.
Fine, if it's going to be $200 piece of software. Why do you need a modeler for a price of full featured software? So far, I can't say that Lux showed enough to make it look like MODO has something people wouldn't be able to live w/o.

lwbob
08-11-2004, 08:51 PM
Did you have to sign anything or verbally promise to not discuss it? :)

I doubt we will see any press releases on the stuff that will come after Modo for a while.

BigJay
08-11-2004, 09:52 PM
LOL I just thought of something.
Lightwave : layout & modeler $1600
Modo : modeler $700-900 (about half the price.)

I guess once the layout for modo comes out it will double the price

I just saw the movies and indeed those are some cool tools. The pipe for working with morphs is a real seller for me. The rest of it seems like a more refined version of lightwaves tools so I'll just wait for them to do something like it.

I'm still not sure if I'd drop that much on it. have to wait for a demo or if they make a deal for the LW users that we can't ignore. Silo updates are coming out at a decent pace so Despite the cool of modo I still need to see how the basic functions work at doing the general modeling and if there is anything there to speed up the workflow. Edge sliding is an example

FunBucket
08-11-2004, 09:56 PM
Okay, this is kinda silly...

Someone brought up the point that production houses have people who only model all day long. They used the example of how each of them use $2k workstations each. They said how MODO is a fraction of that. Now I'm not sure if you're talking about hardware or software, but if you're talking about hardware, you'll still end up spending $2k regardless of what modelling software you use. MODO might be a fraction of the HARDWARE costs, but how are you gonna run MODO if you have no workstations (a.k.a. computers)!?

If you ARE talking about software, what modeling program is there that costs $2k? Grab some copies of XSI foundation for $495. Sure, it has more than modeling tools, but it's close to half the price of MODO. If you want strictly modeling programs, go with Silo. WAY CHEAPER! And as far as we can see, does everything MODO does. Maybe even more so...

And I love how the people who actually got to see what the hype is all about won't talk about it. So I guess everyone's going to have to spend $900 just to see what the hell kind of features this thing has? Since MODO won't dare mention any innovative features... the only thing anyone seems to be gushing about is the interface... well, la de da. I love a good interface, but there's no way I'm paying $900 for one.

For that much cash, unless MODO has a magical "make everything pretty" button, I'd say Lux just shot themselves in the foot. I just don't see why even a big company would spend that much more on a program that doesn't seem to offer anything new.

I would love to find out that they have a few features up their sleeves that's really going to change how we think about modeling, but even at $900... I don't know.

Rigley
08-11-2004, 10:13 PM
3 new videos on luxology.com ! :thumbsup:

Brettzies
08-11-2004, 10:30 PM
Nothing screws up workflow more than endless importing and exporting...
This is definetly true, however, I'd rather go through the pain of importing/exporting and not the pain of using one software's weak features just to avoid this.

As for MODO not offering something new compared to LW modeler, I'd say that depends on how you look at it. It may not be revolutionary, but it definetly appears to be better in every way in terms of interface. Interface is a huge deal which gets overlooked by LW all too often. I used LW for many years and still have to every now and then, and it is painful going back to the LW formula. It's just very clunky to work with. Sure, it gets it done and you can become very fast and efficient using it, but it's still clunky compared to other packages. A lot of strong features, but interface isn't one of them.

So, what appeals to me about MODO and Luxology is that they are taking the strong aspects of what they previously "made" and hopefully making it better to work with for the end user.

visualride
08-11-2004, 10:31 PM
When Zbrush 2.0 came out, the forums were full of posts saying how inexpensive the software was compared to it's capabilities. A few people were even saying that they should have charged more. This is the kind of enthusiasm that Modo is going to need to generate if they are going to charge such a high price in today’s market. Sure the features are nice and no one is complaining about the interface, but they seem to think that the year is still 2000 with they're price tag.

We all really just need to relax and wait to try out a demo once it comes out to have a serious discussion. Till then, it will be a very hard sell for them. See my previous post to see what I really think of the price.

BigJay
08-11-2004, 10:33 PM
HEY!!!

did anyone notice on the mouse config video that there is a Lightwave I/O preference...

Wonder what that is!!!

BigJay
08-11-2004, 10:36 PM
they must be updating the site. i went back to a previous page and 2 more videos appeared on it. Probably check it later after they finish updating

ThomasMahler
08-11-2004, 10:49 PM
I think most people complain because nowadays there are a lot of very cool modelers for about no money available (Silo is one of the best, if not the best modeler I've ever used and costs laughable hundred bucks...) - Why should you pay 800 dollars for something that isn't giving you anything new/revolutionary or whatever that you could not do with other programs?

I think ZBrush 2.0's pricetag is okay, BECAUSE I can't do Displacements like that with any other program. If there'd be 5 other programs that'd do esentially the same thing ZBrush does with a lower pricetag, people would also complain.

It's just that currently Modo seems like unnecessary luxury - I can do most of the things posted on their page with Silo and with Silo I did not have to learn anything new. It just feels like the program you want it to. It's fast, compact, has pretty cool features and costs close to nothing. Best thing is that Nevercenter is always updating Silo in a daily manner - new features and news about these nearly every day.

I'm sure Modo is an excellent Modeler, nevertheless.

fez
08-11-2004, 10:55 PM
Lux just posted some new videos on edge weights, among other things. Very, very cool stuff. But can you export a model with weighted edges to other programs like Maya?

iC4
08-11-2004, 11:04 PM
Lux just posted some new videos on edge weights, among other things. Very, very cool stuff. But can you export a model with weighted edges to other programs like Maya? no....but I'm sure there is an option to convert it to polys before you export

visualride
08-11-2004, 11:06 PM
Good question fez. Export the edge creases? Anyone?

BigJay
08-12-2004, 01:12 AM
sadly the edge weighting as cool as it is will be totally useless outside of modo so detail in the end will still need to be modeled unless they have a way to freeze the weighting into apropriate new geometry.


Modo and C4D are the only apps that have edge weighting right now that I know of.

SOPLAND
08-12-2004, 01:32 AM
sadly the edge weighting as cool as it is will be totally useless outside of modo so detail in the end will still need to be modeled unless they have a way to freeze the weighting into apropriate new geometry.


Modo and C4D are the only apps that have edge weighting right now that I know of. PRMan can use the edge wieghts, so no it's not a useless feature, and any studio using modo and PRMan will be glad to have it.

Renderman_XSI
08-12-2004, 01:40 AM
sadly the edge weighting as cool as it is will be totally useless outside of modo so detail in the end will still need to be modeled unless they have a way to freeze the weighting into apropriate new geometry.


Modo and C4D are the only apps that have edge weighting right now that I know of.
Not that uselesss ;) XSI does edge weighting also, if i understand the video correctly. Maybe its a super specail extra edge weighting feature in Modo..rofl.

lwbob
08-12-2004, 01:49 AM
Not that uselesss ;) XSI does edge weighting also, if i understand the video correctly. Maybe its a super specail extra edge weighting feature in Modo..rofl.
Good to see you crack yourself up :)

AmbientLight
08-12-2004, 01:53 AM
Not that uselesss ;) XSI does edge weighting also, if i understand the video correctly. Maybe its a super specail extra edge weighting feature in Modo..rofl.
The difference is that in MODO's case it's not just edge weight/crease, it's revolutionary edge weight!

ThE_JacO
08-12-2004, 02:09 AM
The difference is that in MODO's case it's not just edge weight/crease, it's revolutionary edge weight! how is it revolutionary considering that insofar the only thing I've seen that XSI and C4D's weighting don't do, and modo does, is creating some really nasty artifacts around a fully creased edge.
also no mention of a versatile component weighting (points and polys too) and no mention to be able to paint your creases or edge weights (that XSI does since a couple of years).

the only really nice thing I've seen insofar in those videos is the proportional falloff on shapes, but in those regards I've seen max doing it a lot better allowing to use ramps and maps to weight the falloff on soft selections and having them as full fledged subops in the modeling history, or XSI allowing a direct connect and paint of shape influences to weightmaps or even to images with Guy Rabiller's free shapemaps.

mind, I'm not bashing on modo at all, the viewport speed and the workflow show a tremendous amount of work and forethought that went into the app, but insofar it's not exactly innovative in any regards.

Renderman_XSI
08-12-2004, 02:28 AM
Is it just me, because in the Selection video(there are 6-7 new videos now) the points dont display on the high resolution Subdivision surface ala XSI,LW3D,Silo, but instead float on the low resolution cage? They really should include this feature for a 1.0 release if anything.

Also check out the macros recording video, when he adds the spike to the surface its aligns to the surfaces of the low resolution cage, and not the right res subdivision surface! C'mon Lux thats not saying Revolutionary subdivision surface modeler to me:P Make it align to the SubD surface!!

I really dig the pie menus though :D

pluMmet
08-12-2004, 02:29 AM
MODO looks cool. But all things considered I'd pay $200 for it. No more.

XSI Foundation is really ratteling alot of cages.... In my mind how can I justify paying $800 for a modeler when a complete modeler, animator, renderer and what have you, casts sooooo much less?

AmbientLight
08-12-2004, 02:53 AM
ThE_JacO,

Jeez, I was being sarcastic :)

ThE_JacO
08-12-2004, 03:05 AM
ThE_JacO,

Jeez, I was being sarcastic :)
my bad, the sarcasm gets totally lost on me at 4 in the morning :)

AmbientLight
08-12-2004, 03:43 AM
my bad, the sarcasm gets totally lost on me at 4 in the morning :)
Happens to me, too, Jac0 :) You actually made a lot of valid points. Others did, too. So far MODO's interface is the most interesting thing. Although color scheme is going to cause a lot of headaches.. letterally. So, you can re-arrange the interface the way you like it. So big deal. You can make C4D look and feel close to any other application out there. After spending some time w/ R9, I can say that I seriously consider investing money into base, MOCCA and Advanced Renderer modules at least. Now that would be a very good investment. Besides C4D's modeling part is just as good as the rest.

It is not like I have a problem with MODO. I have problem w/ hype and marketing machines.

ThE_JacO
08-12-2004, 03:52 AM
Happens to me, too, Jac0 :) You actually made a lot of valid points. Others did, too. So far MODO's interface is the most interesting thing. Although color scheme is going to cause a lot of headaches.. letterally. So, you can re-arrange the interface the way you like it. So big deal. You can make C4D look and feel close to any other application out there. After spending some time w/ R9, I can say that I seriously consider investing money into base, MOCCA and Advanced Renderer modules at least. Now that would be a very good investment. Besides C4D's modeling part is just as good as the rest.

It is not like I have a problem with MODO. I have problem w/ hype and marketing machines.
In all honesty this siggy has been a scatterbomb detonated in the middle of the CGcrowd.

C4D is gaining ground and features just as fast as XSI.
Softimage already got a version out and got its spotlight before siggy, so I think the pricedrops was just about the best thing they could do to get the attention of the public on an excellent release.
Alias didn't exactly knock my socks off with v6 and all the problems we had with it, but they are releasing patches already and buying kaydara and working with pixar will undeniably hold a lot of things for the future.

all in all MODO gets totally lost between those news, it sure gets a lot of attention on sites like these, where we are all active and informed, but if you were to roam for the main post houses of the world asking them about modo you'd get mostly blank expressions.
there's a difference between getting a plug on one of the most respected sites in the online comunity and making a breakthrough in the industry.

I'd rather buy C4D and a couple of Per's plugs for it before I can be arsed with a revamped modeler for almost a grand.

FunBucket
08-12-2004, 04:03 AM
C4D R9 is looking gooooood :thumbsup: Some people are saying that the new cloth plugin is comparable with Syflex... that's a pretty big statement. Can't wait to play with it more and see how it stacks up.

Gwot
08-12-2004, 04:53 AM
Agreed ThE_JacO! The R9 release really opened my eyes. I knew Maxon had been gaining ground and improving C4D recently but this one really demands attention. I'd put money in the core and a few plugins too over Modo at this point. It's not a question of price so much as what you get for that price.

BigJay
08-12-2004, 05:41 AM
PRMan can use the edge wieghts, so no it's not a useless feature, and any studio using modo and PRMan will be glad to have it.
But modo needs to export to a file format that supports edges in renderman.

We'll have to see what they have ready for when it's released but right now the only eport format seems to be Maya and lightwave directly. Neither does edge weighting

CIM
08-12-2004, 06:51 AM
Modo looks pretty impressive. It might not be a revolution, but it's certainly a pretty big evolution of the LW modeling workflow with what looks like some of the best features of alot of the other programs.

While it's true that Modo probably won't dominate, it'll could take a nice peice of the pie from the mid-end programs (C4d, Max and LW) once Nexus is also released. Hell, it might just replace the near death LW. We'll see. :)

Tesselator
08-12-2004, 09:00 AM
I like others here have stated will have to use it before I can know enough to form an intelligent opinion but it faces some steep competition with Rhino, Silo, C4d, LW, xSI, etc.. Heck, "Metasequoia" http://www21.ocn.ne.jp/~mizno/main_e.html (one of my favorites) is only $35 or so.

Something Earth-shatering would be cool but I'm not expecting it.

ambient-whisper
08-12-2004, 09:09 AM
hm. the morphs in modo are really nice :) very similar to mirais/LW. since its all embeded into a single model. and your able to change the base shape which will affect all morphs down the pipe is exactly what i been looking for. ( mirai does this. but it hasnt been updated in ages so ummm )

ThE_JacO
08-12-2004, 09:47 AM
hm. the morphs in modo are really nice :) very similar to mirais/LW. since its all embeded into a single model. and your able to change the base shape which will affect all morphs down the pipe is exactly what i been looking for. ( mirai does this. but it hasnt been updated in ages so ummm )
which is the same XSI does since a while now, since the shapes are in a stack constantly on top of the modeling phase, and are stored in the same object as mappings of the displacment vectors, they are not point position dependant or forcibly linked to another mesh (unless you choose yourself to go that way referencing other meshes).
changing the undeneath geometry affects all the shapes (not to mention you can keep one window in modeling mode and one in result to see how the modifications to the base affect the final result).

the same is present in many large pipelines for maya (as a custom and cumbersome run-once operator that can be ran to apply a buffer of modifications over the morph targets in a relative rather then absolute displacment, but even if it's simple to write it's still custom code).

basically out of the big players only max is stuck with forcibly absolute displacment vectors for the shapes.

P.S.
you should know about the XSI one by now though, shouldn't you ;)

Levitateme
08-12-2004, 09:49 AM
The price is really outrageous. people have not yet had a chance to see what they are going to unveal at that event i was reading about yet. I cant think of anything that could make it so secret it that the tool is worth $600+ though. It seems like 90% of this thread is saying modo is WAY to much so. i was looking for a price on it too until i found out on this thread, i was thinking like 250-300 at the most..If they are reading what people are saying about MODO on forums which you know they gotta be, still there is no way they will be taking back what they said about that price, thats just not how 3d software developers work. I would like to try a demo "since MAYA has some IMO very outdated modeling tools", i would not even use it if it weren't for Byron Poly Tools. So a standalone modeler that does everything would be nice, but i also have wings3d which is fantastic and free. just my say in this, its similar to everyone else opinions. after all the talk about SILO i'm going to try and give it another look at.

ambient-whisper
08-12-2004, 09:54 AM
P.S.
you should know about the XSI one by now though, shouldn't you ;)i should:eek:, but i been spending most my time in clay :).

by the way. you got any notes on how to use partial morphs in xsi with using falloffs?
like i select a few verticies that can be morphed ( whatever morph i choose ) that i want to blend into a model using a falloff. cuz i really like how this is done in Modo/Mirai. hopefully not having to touch the animation mixer.

ThE_JacO
08-12-2004, 12:45 PM
i should:eek:, but i been spending most my time in clay :).

by the way. you got any notes on how to use partial morphs in xsi with using falloffs?
like i select a few verticies that can be morphed ( whatever morph i choose ) that i want to blend into a model using a falloff. cuz i really like how this is done in Modo/Mirai. hopefully not having to touch the animation mixer.
you are 30 mins away from me and you didn't even send an e-mail yet.
tell ya what, come out to the pub, I bring the laptop and the demo material and write you all the post-it notes you want and you keep the beer flowing :)

Labuzz
08-12-2004, 01:01 PM
Hi there,
Does Modo support transparency in viewport? ( very important for games artists ), I dont have this feature in lw Modeler.

AmbientLight
08-12-2004, 01:44 PM
Labuzz,

Check out this thread:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=114579

onlooker
08-12-2004, 03:15 PM
I'll scrape the money together and buy it. From the vids, it's the best modeler I've seen to-date.

show me more!

I'd have to agree with that. It's looking like it's worth the money. It does not mean I will not add silo to my repatuar (<-spelling?) of 3D tools, but MODO looks like the sweetest modeler from what I have seen.

Thalaxis
08-12-2004, 04:09 PM
repatuar (<-spelling?)
Since you asked: repertoir.

StephanD
08-12-2004, 04:12 PM
Since you asked: repertoir.

Since you're being picky it's Répertoire :D

Thalaxis
08-12-2004, 04:12 PM
Since you're being picky it's Repertoire :D
Oops... Thanks :)

StephanD
08-12-2004, 04:13 PM
hehe no problem,back on topic. :)

mushroomgod
08-12-2004, 04:19 PM
anyone know when its getting a release date.......or when a demo might be available?

Ejecta
08-12-2004, 04:43 PM
anyone know when its getting a release date.......or when a demo might be available?
Someone posted a link to an article where is stated it would be out early September. I tried to find the post but there are so many modo and lux threads I coundnt find it. :shrug:

ChristianFischer
08-12-2004, 04:52 PM
it's in this thread :) (4th post)

http://www.cgnetworks.com/story.php?story_id=2294

Sil3
08-12-2004, 05:04 PM
The price is really outrageous. people have not yet had a chance to see what they are going to unveal at that event i was reading about yet. I cant think of anything that could make it so secret it that the tool is worth $600+ though.
I think pleople are forgeting a very important factor in here, this are tools made for PRODUCTION, not for people to play with it, even though we can do both of them.

From a general perspective MODO might seem expensive, but for a Maya based studio, one day of work managing Morph Targets in MODO vs Maya probably get the money back on that same day.

Try to remodel a Base Mesh that has 100 Morph Targets in Maya, do u prefer to remake them all again from scratch or pay 800 bucks to do it on the fly? What if u have to remake 20 Characters with 50-100 Morph Targets each?

Yes it might seem expensive at first place, but as a production tool that can save u hours or days of work it isnīt that much IMO

Labuzz
08-12-2004, 05:19 PM
Hey Lux!
Can you show us some BEZIER spline modeling tools ( boolean, Extend, trim, perfect circle and arcs) and also the bend tools and some Lattices?
Tks

nuclearfessel
08-12-2004, 05:29 PM
i don't know how many of you caught this but i was there last year at the Lux presentation in which a lot of the Digital Doman crew was present...

after looking at this image, http://luxology.com/modo/img/export.jpg, i realized something.

DD was one of the major beta test sites and since they have a pretty good LW to Maya to LW pipeline already installed, only those two major formats (LW object and MayaAscii) are included in the export option besides .obj and X3D...

nuclearfessel
08-12-2004, 05:34 PM
Hey Lux!
Can you show us some BEZIER spline modeling tools ( boolean, Extend, trim, perfect circle and arcs) and also the bend tools and some Lattices?
Tks
it might be speculation on my part but i don't think there are any spline tools in Modo at all.

and possibly no lattices
the last i heard the three major packages that have lattices, the companies have to pay Viewpoint Datalabs for inclusion of lattices in their package as Viewpoint holds the patent for it...

tjnyc
08-12-2004, 05:39 PM
I think pleople are forgeting a very important factor in here, this are tools made for PRODUCTION, not for people to play with it, even though we can do both of them.

From a general perspective MODO might seem expensive, but for a Maya based studio, one day of work managing Morph Targets in MODO vs Maya probably get the money back on that same day.

Try to remodel a Base Mesh that has 100 Morph Targets in Maya, do u prefer to remake them all again from scratch or pay 800 bucks to do it on the fly? What if u have to remake 20 Characters with 50-100 Morph Targets each?

Yes it might seem expensive at first place, but as a production tool that can save u hours or days of work it isnīt that much IMO
But what if you are not using Maya or LW? What is the benefit for Max, XSI, C4D and other app users? The morph can't be used in those apps. And as stated XSI has a similiar workflow for Blendshapes as Modo's Morphs, and assuming you can export blendshapes using FBX. Those morphs from XSI to all other apps that support FBX would be a better production solution. I am not talking about the money aspect, I just would like to figure out what advantages Modo provides, I just can't see any that I don't already have.


Cheers,

mushroomgod
08-12-2004, 05:44 PM
it might be speculation on my part but i don't think there are any spline tools in Modo at all.

if theres no splines (or for that matter snapping) I would never buy it :sad:

nuclearfessel
08-12-2004, 05:48 PM
if theres no splines (or for that matter snapping) I would never buy it :sad:
i say that coz they are touting it as a pure SubD modeler, along the lines of the Wings3d/Silo/Nendo which are all pure SubD modelers.

But since this is the old LW dev team, i wouldn't be surprised if they put it the spline tools...

hehe like i said, its all speculation on my part :)

Renderman_XSI
08-12-2004, 06:22 PM
i say that coz they are touting it as a pure SubD modeler, along the lines of the Wings3d/Silo/Nendo which are all pure SubD modelers.

But since this is the old LW dev team, i wouldn't be surprised if they put it the spline tools...

hehe like i said, its all speculation on my part :)
Since everyone is speculating, take a look at some screen shoots in the interface , it appears to have beizer curve and some sort of other curve like primitive tool. But no ghost points!?? even LW has that.

XSI does do blend shape, and so does Modo and Mirai, the way its done in Mirai and Modo seems more elegent and nature that alone for me, makes a differences ;P. Hell both XSI and Mirai does SubD modeling, but the simplicity and options in Mirai make it a joy to model when compared to XSI. maybe the same can be said about Modo modeling? ;)

michaeli
08-12-2004, 06:22 PM
Modo seems very attractive, but everything changed after C4D R9 release. :)

leuey
08-12-2004, 06:32 PM
Probably none - it may be a better general purpose modeler, and you may be able to work faster once you get used to it. But for somebody like you it probably doesn't make sense to buy it, whether it's $800 or free. Even if it's free you would have to take time to learn it and time is money. But judging by the export options and keyboard mappings it's aimed at Maya people or companies that want a better/cheaper modeling seat, or LW users who want to update (or both - like me. I still do the model in LW --> .obj to Maya. I'm going to buy modo, I'll make up the cost on my first project...)

-Greg



But what if you are not using Maya or LW? What is the benefit for Max, XSI, C4D and other app users? The morph can't be used in those apps. And as stated XSI has a similiar workflow for Blendshapes as Modo's Morphs, and assuming you can export blendshapes using FBX. Those morphs from XSI to all other apps that support FBX would be a better production solution. I am not talking about the money aspect, I just would like to figure out what advantages Modo provides, I just can't see any that I don't already have.


Cheers,

mushroomgod
08-12-2004, 06:37 PM
wow....just watched the toolpipe.mov

very very cool :thumbsup:

Sil3
08-12-2004, 07:02 PM
...I just would like to figure out what advantages Modo provides, I just can't see any that I don't already have.

Cheers,
Well... itīs very simple then, dont buy it :)

Cheers

chadtheartist
08-12-2004, 07:08 PM
Hmmm... I was looking at some of the movies on their site, and I must say I'm impressed. The Macro Recording looks useful, and the Morph targets + Tool pipe functions looks awesome! I also like the sweep polygons tool. that looks like it would be great for creating organic stuff like trees, etc...

As an aspiring modeler, I think I would pay the $700 for this program. Especially if all I will be doing is modeling. I love Silo, but it's still got things missing that I would like to have, like UV mapping.

But on the other hand, XSI Foundation looks pretty good too.

Decisions, Decisions... hmmmm....

tjnyc
08-12-2004, 07:09 PM
Well... itīs very simple then, dont buy it :)

CheersWell good thing you are not working for Luxology's marketing.

nuclearfessel
08-12-2004, 07:21 PM
Since everyone is speculating, take a look at some screen shoots in the interface , it appears to have beizer curve and some sort of other curve like primitive tool. But no ghost points!?? even LW has that.

XSI does do blend shape, and so does Modo and Mirai, the way its done in Mirai and Modo seems more elegent and nature that alone for me, makes a differences ;P. Hell both XSI and Mirai does SubD modeling, but the simplicity and options in Mirai make it a joy to model when compared to XSI. maybe the same can be said about Modo modeling? ;)
oh crap, i missed that... they have em in modo? the spline tools? what video did you see that in?

Renderman_XSI
08-12-2004, 08:15 PM
oh crap, i missed that... they have em in modo? the spline tools? what video did you see that in? Dont know if they are spline tools, check out the large screen shoot of the old man, on the left side of the GUI under primitive:

http://www.luxology.com/modo/interface.aspx

Yes clean booleans(ala power booleans) and bones for rigging your character would be nice..but that might be expecting too much for Modo 1.0 release.

nuclearfessel
08-12-2004, 08:21 PM
Dont know if they are spline tools, check out the large screen shoot of the old man, on the left side of the GUI under primitive:

http://www.luxology.com/modo/interface.aspx

Yes clean booleans(ala power booleans) and bones for rigging your character would be nice..but that might be expecting too much for Modo 1.0 release.
looks like your are right... the eight and nine icons on the toolbar on the left are spline tools...

as for the boolean tools, lets just cross our fingers and hope they are :)

Visualz Sphere
08-13-2004, 06:47 AM
I don't know if it is posted somewhere else but, I was at Siggraph and at the AMD booth they told me that it would be $600, come out at the end of the month, and they would soon be showing a character animation program and rendering program to work with Modo.

Rigley
08-13-2004, 07:25 AM
end of the month ?
animation ?
rendering ?

:eek: :thumbsup: :bounce:

P.S.: poor LW :cry: I am very curious, what NewTek is working on, and what is the future of LightWave...

Luxology rules !

mushroomgod
08-13-2004, 09:28 AM
I don't know if it is posted somewhere else but, I was at Siggraph and at the AMD booth they told me that it would be $600, come out at the end of the month

end of the month? cool

makes sence though, there advertizing on cgtalk so I suppose its got to be comming out very very soon

mbaldwin
08-13-2004, 03:24 PM
the last batch of vids at luxology.com are making me even happier--the depth of the selection tools are great!

can anyone who viewed the closed door demos pipe up and tell us what new stuff lux presented? very curious.

tjnyc
08-13-2004, 03:27 PM
the last batch of vids at luxology.com are making me even happier--the depth of the selection tools are great!

can anyone who viewed the closed door demos pipe up and tell us what new stuff lux presented? very curious.
Unfortunately, we will have to wait til CGNetwork post official info on the secret stuff. Most likely in the coming days. Word has it that Fprime will have some competition.


Cheers,

Erich
08-13-2004, 03:56 PM
I'd like to know what the special deal is for Lightwave 8 users and when a demo will be released. :)

Renderman_XSI
08-13-2004, 05:36 PM
looks like your are right... the eight and nine icons on the toolbar on the left are spline tools...

as for the boolean tools, lets just cross our fingers and hope they are :) You dont have to cross your fingers, look at this hipo screen shot under command on the left side of the GUI. Booleans, Solid Drill, Drill < all every useful :D hopefully the booleans are as good as Power Boolean!! And do away with having to put each object into a seperate layer use to do a boolean operation(IMO that just slows down the workflow).

http://www.luxology.com/modo/#

Im sure they hiding more modeling features we dont know about.

CB_3D
08-13-2004, 05:50 PM
It looks great. Animation and rendering will surely find their way into Modo. If you have any doubts that this will be a full 3d proggy just look at the programers names :-)

As a longtime LW user i am really excited by this one.

nuclearfessel
08-13-2004, 05:56 PM
You dont have to cross your fingers, look at this hipo screen shot under command on the left side of the GUI. Booleans, Solid Drill, Drill < all every useful :D hopefully the booleans are as good as Power Boolean!! And do away with having to put each object into a seperate layer use to do a boolean operation(IMO that just slows down the workflow).

http://www.luxology.com/modo/#

Im sure they hiding more modeling features we dont know about.
oh man..... Oooooh man.... i am set!

you know people have complaining about the price but knowing how much i use LW, i am already so sold on Modo.... Modeler is great but Modo's workflow enhancements are so much better and much more customizable.

i was also hoping for Mouse Based Viewport controls ala Wings3d/Nendo and looks from their "Mouse Remapping" video, its in there

thank you again for your posts :)

kidcodea
08-13-2004, 06:54 PM
It looks great. Animation and rendering will surely find their way into Modo. If you have any doubts that this will be a full 3d proggy just look at the programers names :-)

As a longtime LW user i am really excited by this one.hardcore oldskool lightwave/lightrave :) users cant think any different imho :)
i'm with you.
im with luxology.
3d with cojones.

Nemoid
08-13-2004, 08:51 PM
It looks great. Animation and rendering will surely find their way into Modo. If you have any doubts that this will be a full 3d proggy just look at the programers names :-)

As a longtime LW user i am really excited by this one.
yap the ptogrammers list is illuminating from thisPOV but... does anyone know something more? there was a sort of meeting for choosen people to know more about other lux products

Visualz Sphere
08-13-2004, 09:11 PM
Modo looked impressive at Siggraph but not worth $600. I saw on a different forum it would $695 preorder and $795 after that. Even though Lux has other programs they plan to release, they are asking way too much for just Modo when XSI Foundation is only $495.

visualride
08-13-2004, 09:40 PM
My initial reaction was that Modo was waaay over priced for just a subD modeler. After looking at the demo videos, I see that they have somehow pulled out of my head (and probably many others people here) what we have been wanting in a modeler. I like the shapable soft selections, the morfing, and the interface ideas, .... A lot of these ideas will need to be put to some serious use to see if they are actually more than just eye candy, such as the collapsing menu system. It seems like every time a new menu/interface idea comes out it seems great, but actually never gets used. Still.... the price needs to reflect current software pricing and come down at least $200 closer to the $495 range.

Modo does raise the bar in with the depth of these tools and interface. We can only hope that other companies are taking note (Max 64bit...).

mushroomgod
08-13-2004, 09:46 PM
.... the price needs to reflect current software pricing and come down at least $200 closer to the $495 range.

from what I know about the software (which is only what I can see on there site) I also think thats around the $500 mark seems ok, afterall we still dont realy know what tools it has and what tools it does not (please let it have good snapping)

Hopefully, now that siggraphs out of the way we will find out in few days whats the real deal...cost and everything :thumbsup:

minus23
08-13-2004, 09:58 PM
I was initially a little put-off by Modo on their anouncment of price. I kinda already commited to XSI though by buying before the price-drop even. I do come from Lightwave however... and I do miss my ability to set up renders that look great very quickly. I figure that is just a learning curve issue on my end with XSI. However... if Lux released a rendering module.... well I'm sure it would be of high quality. I would think too that they would use the adaptive rendering techniques seen in F-prime.

When I think about spending money now... well 600 doesn't *really* seem like it would hurt so much... if there were other modules to follow priced around the same with the same quality seen...(or read about) in Modo.

I am gonna wait though to hear what actual users say at least.

richcz3
08-13-2004, 10:07 PM
Modo looked impressive at Siggraph but not worth $600. I saw on a different forum it would $695 preorder and $795 after that. Even though Lux has other programs they plan to release, they are asking way too much for just Modo when XSI Foundation is only $495. I haven't seen Modo in action, but I woudln't pay that kind of money for a specific tool when there are tools for less on the market. I was hard pressed to buy Zbrush at its price as I use it for modeling only. For $700 it better have some super secret features they haven't disclosed on their site.


richcz3

Snosrap
08-14-2004, 03:31 AM
All the talk about whether Luxology will create a separate application or module for Modo to extend it's function to rendering and animation seems to be moot. After all their name is Lux : a unit of illumination equal to the direct illumination on a surface that is everywhere one meter from a uniform point source of one candle intensity or equal to one lumen per square meter.[Webster] ology : study of. [Snosrap] Will Luxology make a complete modeling and rendering application? I think we all know the answer to that, after all they had to use something to render their Modo squiggly.

Snos

CIM
08-14-2004, 05:24 AM
I haven't seen Modo in action, but I woudln't pay that kind of money for a specific tool when there are tools for less on the market. I was hard pressed to buy Zbrush at its price as I use it for modeling only. For $700 it better have some super secret features they haven't disclosed on their site.


richcz3

If you purchase simply based on price and not what's best for you; you'll probably end up limited.

moovieboy
08-14-2004, 09:49 AM
Fortunately, I was lucky enough to chat with Brad Pebbler for a spell at Siggraph, so here's my 2 1/2 cents :D

First, my modeling work is primarily in Lightwave, so I can't honestly say whether the features we talked about are "revolutionary" across all 3D modeling packages (it sure leaps over LW's Modeler by a staggering degree), but here's what I got out of Modo.

Artistic flexibility: I think many of us would agree when we look at competing software, there are things in their interface or surface controls, selections, axis points etc, that you wish you could just rip off and embed into your program of choice. I can't think of ANY graphics program where the interface, layouts, and controls are like unmolded clay saying, "I can bend to the way YOU think" instead of the other way around.

That flexibility seems to spread to how some of the tools can interact with one another (For example, an airbrush tool can be combined with many other manipulation tools) or how your model/selections interact with world/local spaces and axis... it's hard not to sound too esoteric about this, but too often when modeling, I have to move back 2 steps when I want to change/add something to my model and Modo seems better at keeping me moving forward.

The tool set was amazing, the quick responsiveness and control with Modo's manipulation tools was wonderful. IMO, this will allow me to model at a higher, faster level than before.

However, I can agree with those who wonder if $695 is too much. I'm not sure either considering a) other modelers are insanely cheaper and b) upgrading your current modeling program is typically far cheaper too.

Having said that, I'm still reaching for my wallet, waiting only to see if Luxology is forced into a different pricing strategy due to the other Siggraph announcements... Who knows?

It'll probably come down to how individual artists feel about it when they play with a demo... It'll either be a godsend, or something you can live without. :)

-Tom

midosujisen
08-14-2004, 11:06 AM
Did your talk cover any of the other products they are producing?

Nemoid
08-14-2004, 01:04 PM
We waited for long for Lux products. So waiting some more little time to know what the modo price is is not scaring me. And there will surely be a demo version.

Maybe the price will be different than rumoured, especially if it's nothing more than a modeler.On the opposite case, the price will be justified by some feature for sure.
Waiting to know more also about other Lux products.

MickW
08-14-2004, 01:28 PM
I did hear that the discount for LW owners is very favourable...

tjnyc
08-14-2004, 03:57 PM
It'll probably come down to how individual artists feel about it when they play with a demo... It'll either be a godsend, or something you can live without. :)

-TomTom,

Your post in this discussion is the only one that I totally agree with. I am going to reserve final judgement until the demo to see if it is something I can do without.

mushroomgod
08-14-2004, 04:10 PM
If you purchase simply based on price and not what's best for you; you'll probably end up limited.

unfortunalty where not all as rich as you cim....afterall no one I know can afford all the apps you seem to be able to afford. :sad:

Gwot
08-14-2004, 04:33 PM
Tom,

Your post in this discussion is the only one that I totally agree with. I am going to reserve final judgement until the demo to see if it is something I can do without.
Ditto Tony.

richcz3
08-14-2004, 05:29 PM
If you purchase simply based on price and not what's best for you; you'll probably end up limited.I always buy programs based on features at its set price point. I don't need redundancy which at this point Modo seems to offer allot of. I use Lightwave and ZBrush offers an alternate method of modeling that integrates well into Lightwave. Modo on the other hand apears a new version of Lightwaves Modeler. That level of redundancy at its stated price point, for me is a hard sell.
Like XSI Foundation for only $500 for a key Modeler and Animation program. That's a toolset that makes more sense for my production dollars.

Again I haven't seen it in action but from early reviews and their selling points on their site, I am not reaching for my check book.



richcz3

Ejecta
08-14-2004, 06:09 PM
I use Lightwave and ZBrush offers an alternate method of modeling that integrates well into Lightwave. Yeah intergrates real well with those lovely seams on LW's metanurbs. Not to mention we had to use a third party displacement plug which by the way screwed us rendering over the network. Some frames rendered with the displacment some didnt. We ended up having to render it on one machine. Nice!

Nemoid
08-14-2004, 08:48 PM
Tom,

Your post in this discussion is the only one that I totally agree with. I am going to reserve final judgement until the demo to see if it is something I can do without.
Agree.A demo is what we need to evaluate the puppy and eventually buy it.

Incidentally, as a Lwver i am sorry for the probs that the workflow Lw/Zbrush presents for now. Lynx plugs are worth to be used, but it's true that Nt have to address alot of things in Lw to offer a better, robust and modern workflow.

CB_3D
08-15-2004, 05:24 AM
On Modo i am already (almost) sold, and not because of the admittedly nice interface.

So, any news of about Luxīs other secret stuff?

gustojunk
08-15-2004, 03:49 PM
Does anybody know the crucial question about Modo: WHEN?

I saw demos of Modo during last year's Siggraph and based on their way of talking I would have never imagined that another Siggraph would go by and still no Modo on the market. I wonder if now it will take another month for release, or another Siggraph....

I can't wait!!!

rock
08-15-2004, 07:03 PM
MODO will be out officially in September 2004.

Beamtracer
08-16-2004, 02:12 AM
Luxology missed a big opportunity by not releasing this app at Siggraph. Obviously it wasn't ready. It was running late. Then again, just about every software project takes longer than originally envisaged.

They also seem to be stuck in a timewarp regarding price. USD $895 would have made sense two and a half years ago when Luxology started. Lux's business plan will have to be radically revised.

The price of software doesn't reflect how professional it is. What affects the price of software is unit sales. Luxology will want to make as much money as possible (every company does). They will make more money if they drop the price. If they half the price they'll sell more than double the units, thus make more money.

A very hefty price discount should be available to new adopters of Modo. New adopters won't know how well it works. They won't know what quirks it has. They won't know how good the future Nexus renderer will be. They won't know what success Modo will have in the market (prior success is the main selling point of some other 3D apps). They won't know how Luxology will go as a business. It's a bit of a leap of faith to be an early adopter. This is why a discount is important. Lightwavers will at least know the Lux development team from their Lightwave days.

Overseas purchasers of Modo will have to pay even more, as hungry distributers add huge mark-ups to the US price. Luxology would be better selling over the internet rather than use these distributors.

I'm a Lightwave 3D user. While Lightwave has some advantages over other 3D software, Newtek doesn't seem able to take it much further without their former development team (now at Luxology.) For this reason I must move to new software. It's either Lux or it's something else. I'd prefer it to be Lux.

For Mac users Luxology will have an added bonus. While some other software companies regard the Mac as second class, Luxology has made sure that their Mac software at least equal to the Windows version. Lux has written their Mac software from the ground up to run on OS X (rather than porting an old app from Mac OS9). I'm expecting Lux's Mac performance to be better than other 3D software. On the disc you get both Windows and Mac versions, so you get to choose which one you'll run at any time.

I hold a lot of hope for Lux. For Lightwave users it will take them to the next level.

Proximus
08-16-2004, 02:57 AM
How much would you pay for Modo, considering Wings is free, Silo is 109$ and XSI just went down to 495$ ?

onlooker
08-16-2004, 03:02 AM
How much woul you pay for Modo, considering Wings is free, Silo is 109$ and XSI just went down to 495$ ?

I for one wont be sure about that until I test drive it.

Proximus
08-16-2004, 03:42 AM
About the price I would pay instantly: $109 like for SILO.


Also another thing..did anyone see demoed a bridge polygons tool like in Silo or XSI in Modo?

I managed to get my hands on an unatended workstation running Modo at the end of Sig, and I was browsing the menus but I could not find it.

FoSale
08-16-2004, 04:53 AM
Beamtracer Luxology missed a big opportunity by not releasing this app at Siggraph Well, not realy actualy it was a good move.. seee there is always something else from other manufactureres that gets released on that week, and it was a good idea to hold off until every other manufacturer puts their cards on the table.


They also seem to be stuck in a timewarp regarding price. USD $895 I think everybody is stuck in a timewarp now that XSI-Foundation is $495.00
If it wasnt for XSI being dropped too $495.00 no one, and Im mean no mofo who has posted since Sig would be complaining about the price for MODO.


A very hefty price discount should be available to new adopters of Modo. Daym everybody and their mother wants everything for free, its funny how folks try to make a paragraph statement with B.S. like They(Customer) won't know this or thatwait for a Demo simple as that... I'm kicking the tires t00 before I buy:)

Ya, I know the net info travels fast with hear say, but let me tell you every manufacturer is barely getting back to business becuae of Sigg, and by the end of next week we should know what the manufacterers are planning to do in the App/price war that was started by XSI. Unless they take a vacation this coming week.

Overseas purchasers of Modo will have to pay even more Do you Realy know that for sure??

As I understand it folks will only be able to purchase Modo from the manufacturer , so the middle man will be Axed. which I guess overseas purchasers wont have to pay more:)




I hold a lot of hope for Lux. For Lightwave users it will take them to the next level. Couldnt agree with you more on that one Ive already positioned myself for the next app after LW by selling it before the XSI price drop. now I need to choose one or the other

Proximus About the price I would pay instantly: $109 like for SILO. Not to start a app war, but your saying that youd get Modo for the price of SILO, but why not then get SILO?

Is it becuase MODO is worth more * MUHAHAHAHAHAHHA :twisted:


[message from moderator]
I'll give you a warning for now, EASY on the swearing there mate, there's no need for it and it's certainly not tolerated here]

CB_3D
08-16-2004, 04:55 AM
They won't know how good the future Nexus renderer will be. Nexus renderer? From Lux?Cool...

FoSale
08-16-2004, 05:04 AM
CB_3D

I think alot of folks are waiting for Cgnetworks official write up about MODO and folks who do know dont want to steal the thunder of the story. So we will have to wait for Leonard to get typing.

:wip:

silvergun
08-16-2004, 05:37 AM
I really can't wait for modo. This app is what I as a 3d modeller have been waiting for. Lightwave has worked well for me but it has since let itself go. As a mac user, i've also grown tired of Newteks half arsed port of lightwave and bug ridden updates and feel I deserve much more than to pay the same price as a pc user does but for less than half the product. Modo gives me the creative freedom as an artist, and lets me built my own interface of how I want to set out my tools and work in my own way. No other app out there does anything close to what modo does and for that the price is worth it. You lot can moan about the price, but for this much freedom I would be willing to pay much more.

onlooker
08-16-2004, 05:43 AM
About the price I would pay instantly: $109 like for SILO.


Also another thing..did anyone see demoed a bridge polygons tool like in Silo or XSI in Modo?

I managed to get my hands on an unatended workstation running Modo at the end of Sig, and I was browsing the menus but I could not find it.


#1) If you can't admit your post is just slightly trolling for $$ arguments your already an idiot IMO.

#2) From what little I have seen on Modo, and after using SILO - Modo outclasses SILO X30 already. These apps are in totally different leagues. SILO needs a butt load of development to be as friendly as Modo.

#3) FoSale is totally accurate in saying "If it wasnt for XSI being dropped too $495.00 no one, and I mean no mofo who has posted since Sig would be complaining about the price for MODO."

#4) The bridge polygons function is hardly a miraculous modeling tool. It is by no means a system seller IMO.

#5) $895 would have been more than an acceptable price a week, and a day ago for most people IMO.

My final thoughts on this situation: Avid, and XSI did just pull a big # on Luxology, and Apple. Being that XSI is probably thought of as the second most highly regarded DCC app in the minds of the average joe 3D user, (and anyone capable of reading). This price drop not only undermines the launch of Modo for Luxology, but it also puts an extremely good price on a highend 3D application that is only available for PC. It just made an even better case for switching to PC for 3D if your using a Macintosh.

It's too bad Apple still cant get a DCC graphics card manufacturer to come through for them to ward off some of the onslaught. :banghead:

CB_3D
08-16-2004, 06:02 AM
yeah, of course, understandable and i absolutely respect Luxology for their "make no premature promises" ploitics.

but hey, as long as it doesnīt art out into flamings thereīs no reason to have fun in speculating.

While i certainly respect the position of people like "Splinegod", who seem to know a lot more about what went on behind the scenes than we average LW users who suspect this to really be the foundation of a new generation of our loved but (letīs be honest here)stagnated software.

Contrary to users of other packages this is an extremely interesting topic for most of us old school LWers.

Thatīs not to say i am not equally curious to know about LWīs future. Itīs just that i am not as optimistic about it as i was around version 6.5.

erilaz
08-16-2004, 06:16 AM
If it lives up to it's demo videos alone I'll buy it. :D

CB_3D
08-16-2004, 06:37 AM
Itīs the true edges and the UV integrity tools that attract me primarily. That in combination with optimized OGL and true open architecture is what caught my eye.

The interface looks funky, but i am not sure it hinders the workflow more than it helps. Oh well, only trying the demo will tell.

MunCHeR
08-16-2004, 12:46 PM
The toolset looks nice to me, hey use whatever gets your job done quicker, just hope us "international" clients dont get a** raped by the resellers as per usual. Pretty glad they didnt call the package "momo" :D

MunCH

ThomasMahler
08-16-2004, 01:08 PM
I'm not sure about the Interface but I love the fact that I can switch to the Maya Viewport Controls, I really hate having different viewport controls in different programs.

I'm pretty eager to test the Demo Version, hope it'll be available soon - If Modo would also feature an equivalent to Silos Topology Brush...

Proximus
08-16-2004, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=onlooker]#1) If you can't admit your post is just slightly trolling for $$ arguments your already an idiot IMO.


Yes, I see you dont have the requierments to carry a civilised discution without trying to insult, so I will abstein myself to answer back with the same...
Also it seems to me you dont understand the value of money and how hard is to make them, well, go, run to your rich mom and ask for extra $$$, arogant child.

In my books, exists something like market competition and I work hard for my money, so this is the price I am willing to pay,in today market, for a tool.
Chosing between similar packages is made by personal preference, ONLY if the price is close. And if I have to replace something I already use in my pypeline, learn a new package, well, it should offer better features at a better price.

Silo it is a powerful and friendly modeler, and yes, it has the bridge polygons tool.
Oh, you mean your chosen "30 times more powerful" application do not have one?

richcz3
08-16-2004, 03:58 PM
Beamtracer Interesting points. I'm a Lightwave user as well. My counter is that the boys at LUx really couldn't do anything more with the Lightwave core and went out to start from the ground up. Lightwave is in need of a serious core fix which is a hot topic.
As for Modos pricing, I agree that higher pricing is not reflective of Pro class status anymore. Getting a wider installed user base instead of an pro class user base is what the market has been moving toward. I imagine that when Modo is released, there will be a pricing scheme to match it's target market.


richcz3

Cman
08-16-2004, 04:25 PM
Beamtracer Interesting points. I'm a Lightwave user as well. My counter is that the boys at LUx really couldn't do anything more with the Lightwave core and went out to start from the ground up. Lightwave is in need of a serious core fix which is a hot topic.
[...]
richcz3
As I recall, when Lux first formed they were supposed to be continuing the development of LW as a solo company, but then they got into a small war with Newtek over contracts and rights or somesuch - Newtek went to great pains to point out that THEY controlled LW - and so Luxology was born.

So Modo was supposed to be LW8, as it were.

If one can model as smoothly with XSI-F, and work within a pipeline, then Modo pricing will have to come down, imho.

So long as it stays available to everyone (ie, not bought by Apple), and the market sets the price, I'm sure we'll all be happy.

chadtheartist
08-16-2004, 04:29 PM
You can't compare Silo with Modo. Silo is a very, very good polygon modeler. It's got some great features for the $109 price tag. However, it lacks in a lot of things, i.e. UV editing, layers, parenting, etc... It's basically a more advanced version of Wings. Plus if you have a model with UV's, forget about working with it in Silo if you want to keep the same UV layout. It destroys the UV layout once the topology is changed. Hopefully they will fix that soon.

However, Modo is more than just a poly modeler. It's toolsets are leaps and bounds further along than Silo's. Silo may in the future have some of these toolsets, but thats in the future, and doesn't help now. For me, I'm seriously considering Modo, mainly because of the layering system, it's Tool Pipe feature, the UV toolsets, and the ability to make Macros. Plus I can honestly see the Morph tool being a very, very nice way to do facial blendshapes.

So for me, Modo is looking like a nice program to have if you want the best modeling tools out there. Although I haven't used it yet, I can only assume that is the case. I'm debating either getting Modo, or XSI foundations. I'm leaning towards Modo, for now, mainly because it looks like it will fit nicely in my workflow (PC and Mac).

Joebount
08-16-2004, 05:49 PM
Not convinced so far. Except the morphs nothing really drooling. I guess I'll wait for the demo. Or for Clay, yeah, fo Clay I guess ! :P

talos72
08-16-2004, 06:11 PM
I was at SIG, and checked out a couple of demos on Modo. There are some nice tools, but I also agree that the price is a bit steep. If you have a copy of zbrush and silo, you would have some kick-ass set of modeling tools for less money than one seat of Modo.

ambient-whisper
08-16-2004, 07:05 PM
i hope modos got a solid splitter/slide ( not just a standard shitty splitter that is found in most apps ) tool in there. and being able to extrude verts/edges. ( if you pick a vert and hit extrude.. it would make a new extruded vert thats connected by an edge to where you extruded from. ) very important tool in my workflow.

tjnyc
08-16-2004, 07:33 PM
However, Modo is more than just a poly modeler. It's toolsets are leaps and bounds further along than Silo's. How so? I didn't see it live in SIGGRAPH, but I checked out all the qt on the Modo site, and I didn't spot comparable toolsets that are "leaps and bounds" further than SILO's. Some better, but hardly revolutionary. Do you care to elaborate?


Cheers,

jscott
08-16-2004, 07:34 PM
Because it has variable creasing/edge weighting. Haha just messing with ya.

I think the tool pipe and macro recording are very interesting.

-jscott

Proximus
08-16-2004, 08:09 PM
I dont know what did they show at the user meeting but on the exibition floor it was more or less the same thing repeated like a loop by different people.

Wether it was at ATI booth, or at one of the Mac's near the entrance were showing the same things like the QT on Luxology site: the interface, opening and resizing windows, preloading some prebuilt meshes and deforming them, macros, etc.
That soccer ball model was the only one I'v seen done from zero.

It looks good, true, but I am usualy suspicious when I see this kind of "prepared from home lesson" Demo, cause 3D is not easy to do or learn for that mater, and when I learn a program, usualy I have to figure out the hard way, the things which do not work as advertised. No demo artist gonna show the weak points, he is gonna paint the best possible image for you...

So I guess until a full functional demo is out for grabs, all discution is pointles.

mushroomgod
08-16-2004, 08:16 PM
I would imagine that both cgchannel and cgnetworks have reviews/interviews comming out (done during sig?). Hopfully soon after that a demo will be available then we will all know what its worth to us.

Ill admit in looking forward to getting the demo, but i have by no means made my mind up about anything yet.....we will just have to wait and see. :sad:

Ariel
08-16-2004, 08:22 PM
For me to switch to Modo I would like to see these features:

-multi-component tweak mode (like wings/mirai)
-real symmetry (again, wings/mirai)
-lattices
-smooth/relax tools
-support for dotxsi format
-complete support for importing/exporting mesh normals information
-it needs to have very solid UV tools (I find myself re-adjusting models a lot during the UV process, so it is better to have those UV tools inside of Modo..that way there is no need to export to Maya/XSI)
-options for camera fov settings and lights (i haven't seen any yet)
-above average snapping and welding tools (again, haven't heard about these yet)


From the standopoint of how useable it would be for production, I think it already has two big pluses:

-solid, customizable interface (this is really a must for artists dwitching from other apps)
-macros function (it can really cut down time, especially because you no longer need to write scripts to do repetitive tasks.)

The last thing now is the price.. based on what I have seen so far, Modo can't be priced at more than $500 now that xsi sells for that ammount ('foundation' has all the modeling tools from the other versions, except for polygon reduction). In fact, they should price it at $450 or below simply because xsi comes with an excellent renderer, skeleton tools, animation, render tree.....etc.

Wegg
08-16-2004, 09:16 PM
How so? I didn't see it live in SIGGRAPH, but I checked out all the qt on the Modo site, and I didn't spot comparable toolsets that are "leaps and bounds" further than SILO's. Some better, but hardly revolutionary. Do you care to elaborate?


Cheers,
Are there any "morph map" tools in Silo?

Xtrude
08-16-2004, 09:43 PM
I will put my money on Silo... and simply build models with it :D

I too, don't see 30 x the power of Silo within any current modeling toolset of any app... that is just plain rediculous.

I have been following the threads recently over at Nevercenter regarding feature wishes, and it would appear that the developers of Silo are all over many different little tool advances stemming from some of the new releases by other software, and are very eager to impliment same, as well, these guys are coming out with some funky stuff of thier own, and from ideas put forth by the user group.

I won't suggest that Silo is the best modeling app just yet, though it is getting very close in some areas, but I would like to suggest that if the advancment's of this little app, within such a short period of time, is any indication of what Silo will develope into, then for sure my money is on it... I mean I am betting that by version 1.3 it will be humming right along, and that by two or so releases from 1.3, that Silo will totaly rock the modeling scene.... and the thing is.... you buy into this app now, and you are along for the ride, free upgrading all the way to v2... and... moreover, your input is listened to by the developing team, and the beta testers, and more often than not, any good idea you have, is immediately slated for further concideration, and likely implimentation... The more that people buy into this wonderful little company, the larger the userbase, the more ideas stem forth, and the better the app will become... and this is the only area whereby I see a 30 x factor in anything...

Modo sure does have a pretty UI, I will give it that, but, then again, once ya set things up to really fly when modeling, the ui becomes less important by volume, and ya end up with creating a work space which is much more sparce in sight, and open to much more realestate for actual modeling... just you, the model, some hotkeys, and the odd use of a numerical input box... widgits become optional, and the models get created through utilization of great tools, great workflow, and moreover, your terrific imagination :D Silo really rocks with these concerns eh... ;)

Happy modeling, and best of luck and fortune regardless of the app you choose to work with... :)

Xtrude
08-16-2004, 09:50 PM
Are there any "morph map" tools in Silo?
Perhaps you could drop by Nevercenter's forum, and place this on the Features Request Forum, and watch with interest.... ;) :D

The more people come up with, the larger this app becomes, and the cooler it becomess as well.... and you too can feel good about assisting in the design of your dream modeling app...

FKMaster
08-16-2004, 09:57 PM
i can make everthing with 3dmax too, but it burns my soul, if i work with it ;-)
modo looks very sweet and the workflow too.......a little bit of mirai /wings-->i like this......
relaxed working ?!---> that's enogh for buying.......i have one live and will enjoy it :D

Renderman_XSI
08-16-2004, 10:12 PM
For me to switch to Modo I would like to see these features:

-multi-component tweak mode (like wings/mirai)
-real symmetry (again, wings/mirai)
-lattices
-smooth/relax tools
-support for dotxsi format
-complete support for importing/exporting mesh normals information
-it needs to have very solid UV tools (I find myself re-adjusting models a lot during the UV process, so it is better to have those UV tools inside of Modo..that way there is no need to export to Maya/XSI)
-options for camera fov settings and lights (i haven't seen any yet)
-above average snapping and welding tools (again, haven't heard about these yet)


From the standopoint of how useable it would be for production, I think it already has two big pluses:

-solid, customizable interface (this is really a must for artists dwitching from other apps)
-macros function (it can really cut down time, especially because you no longer need to write scripts to do repetitive tasks.)

The last thing now is the price.. based on what I have seen so far, Modo can't be priced at more than $500 now that xsi sells for that ammount ('foundation' has all the modeling tools from the other versions, except for polygon reduction). In fact, they should price it at $450 or below simply because xsi comes with an excellent renderer, skeleton tools, animation, render tree.....etc. There is already a smooth tool in Modo, among other things. Not sure what you mean by real symmetry tools, but the symmetry tools in Modo looks good enough for me, they update the other half of the mesh as you model(thats all i need for a symmetry tool). The UV tools are there...again no one knows how good they are though.

I myself do want to see some Mirai features in Modo, like as highlighting the element(edge,points,polygon,body) when you move your mouse cursur over it. For anyone to work effectively with a single viewport, there needs has to be a options to turn on orthographic view upon switching between left,right,top,bottom,front,back. There needs to be a button to toggle between perspective view and ortho.

As far as pricing, i think 600-800 USD is fair price for anyone that has a job(hobbylist,freelancer,etc). Especially for hobbylist, since CG is a hobby, that means you must have a main job to support this hobby. I would pay the 600-800 they are asking if the workflow is fast,elegant, intutive compared to Mirai. If you cant afford Modo, dont buy it. buy something else..its really that simple. I dont want Luxology reduce the price of Modo, just cause XSI and Silo are cheaper, or because some folks cant put in extra hours at work to save up for Modo. Give me a break!

ghopper
08-16-2004, 10:32 PM
I would pay the 600-800 they are asking if the workflow is fast,elegant, intutive compared to Mirai. If you cant afford Modo, dont buy it. buy something else..its really that simple. I dont want Luxology reduce the price of Modo, just cause XSI and Silo are cheaper, or because some folks cant put in extra hours at work to save up for Modo. Give me a break!

I agree with you there, if you need it then the price is ok. But the questions is, at that price and at the current market situation, will Lux be able to sell a lot of units ? Afterall you would want Lux to stay in business, but if only studios and freelancers who can afford this price tag and are willing to use another modeler, how much money can Lux really make in order to stay in business. Well I don't know.

All I see is other companies tend to try to establish a large user base first, even if it means they don't make a profit, see Softimage, Xbox for instance.

AmbientLight
08-16-2004, 11:34 PM
I agree with you there, if you need it then the price is ok. But the questions is, at that price and at the current market situation, will Lux be able to sell a lot of units ?
When the thread goes big like this one, people begin to ask the same questions and discuss the same things over and over again. Several hundred pages back, Jac0 pointed out that people at the studios, who would be primary customers for such price range, blink at you w/ blank faces and have no idea what you are talking about when you tell them about MODO. It's only us geeks on such forums know what MODO is.

ghopper
08-16-2004, 11:46 PM
When the thread goes big like this one, people begin to ask the same questions and discuss the same things over and over again.
:argh: - just noticed we're on page 15. Oh well, my bad, should have read all pages.

Several hundred pages back, Jac0 pointed out that people at the studios, who would be primary customers for such price range, blink at you w/ blank faces and have no idea what you are talking about when you tell them about MODO. It's only us geeks on such forums know what MODO is.
Well, if that is the case, that's even worse for Lux. Guess they need to knock on some doors now.

leuey
08-17-2004, 12:18 AM
That's a bunch of crap. People who work at big studios are just as tuned into this stuff and have had input on modo's developement. LW is in many if not most big studios and the people who spend all day modelling w/ it are OBVIOUSLY paying attention to the next version of modeller which is (in essence) Modo. Many of the same people who test, demo, and send feedback to modo are the same people who used to do it w/ Lightwave - and many of them work at 'big studios' (none of which are really all that 'big' by the way, a medium sized lawfirm will employ as many people as the largest cg studios in the world..)

Overpriced or not Modo will be used in film and games and if you think it won't you have no clue. It already has a pedigree and loyalty and isn't some 'kooky new modeller' that nobody's seen before.

-Greg



When the thread goes big like this one, people begin to ask the same questions and discuss the same things over and over again. Several hundred pages back, Jac0 pointed out that people at the studios, who would be primary customers for such price range, blink at you w/ blank faces and have no idea what you are talking about when you tell them about MODO. It's only us geeks on such forums know what MODO is.

AmbientLight
08-17-2004, 12:30 AM
Greg, hehe. are you going after me on purpose every time I post? :) Fine, you did it. I won't post on this subject no more... yeah right.

Ariel
08-17-2004, 12:33 AM
As far as pricing, i think 600-800 USD is fair price for anyone that has a job(hobbylist,freelancer,etc). Especially for hobbylist, since CG is a hobby, that means you must have a main job to support this hobby. I would pay the 600-800 they are asking if the workflow is fast,elegant, intutive compared to Mirai. If you cant afford Modo, dont buy it. buy something else..its really that simple. I dont want Luxology reduce the price of Modo, just cause XSI and Silo are cheaper, or because some folks cant put in extra hours at work to save up for Modo. Give me a break!
I never said that Modo isn't worth that ammount. But it is just simple economics, the fact that they won't sell well at that price with the current competition from Softimage.. especially for new customers who will purchase one or the other (if xsi is cheaper, they will most likely go with it.. xsi does have a pretty solid modeling toolset, plus more) .

regarding the symmetry tool.. i mean one that will work like in Wings, where center points stay in x=0, even if you use a magnet or soft selection. and yes, i know they have UV tools..but are they solid (can they compete with Maya's/XSI's etc..of course, no one knows yet)?

leuey
08-17-2004, 12:41 AM
Ambient, I'm not 'going after you' - it was somebody else you quoted (Jac0?) who's comment I was 'crapping'. But let's use some logic here - there are a handfull of large companies that are invested in Lightwave (and when I say invested I'm talking talent and custom tools not seats - talent is much more expensive than software) and they are OBVIOUSLY going to evaluate Modo. People can bicker and argue all they want but it IS essentially the 'New' Modeller, and Modo has gotten headlines from every publication covering siggraph - not to mention plenty of attention AT the show. Of course people at larger studios are aware of it, they've been aware of it since all the programmers left Newtek - to say they aren't is basically saying they're idiots. I've done work for 3 of the 4 largest game companies in the world - and I garuntee they're aware of it. The guys doing the modelling will make them aware of it. Doesn't mean they'll buy it. But they'll be aware of it's existence - jeez.....

-Greg



Greg, hehe. are you going after me on purpose every time I post? :) Fine, you did it. I won't post on this subject no more... yeah right.

Renderman_XSI
08-17-2004, 03:02 AM
I never said that Modo isn't worth that ammount. But it is just simple economics, the fact that they won't sell well at that price with the current competition from Softimage.. especially for new customers who will purchase one or the other (if xsi is cheaper, they will most likely go with it.. xsi does have a pretty solid modeling toolset, plus more) .

regarding the symmetry tool.. i mean one that will work like in Wings, where center points stay in x=0, even if you use a magnet or soft selection. and yes, i know they have UV tools..but are they solid (can they compete with Maya's/XSI's etc..of course, no one knows yet)? My comments,about people complaining about the price of Modo, wasnt directed to anyone and certainly not you at all. It was a general statement about everyone who keep comparing prices between different app. So what of Silo or XSI is cheaper? that doesnt mean much to me, when both app arent that great for modeling. Im sure Silo and XSI arent everyone cup of tea, and there are those who like it also. Price shouldnt be a issue when you buy a software, but rather the workflow. Simplicity in workflow and getting tools faster(this is were Mirai shines over any App, im wondering if Modo can outdue Mirai in this respect) theres no need for endless ppgs, and GUI eye candy.it'll just distract you in the end. There shouldn't be a need to constantly move your mouse around the GUI left and right just to get tools, and change reference, do alignment,etc.. BS! Mirai doesnt do this, everything is at your finger tips, I think Modo does this with its pie menu system also. Otherwise it would just be another; 3DSMAX,XSI,Maya app<insert roll eye icon here> and pointless to buy.

it is the software that makes the artist, and not the other way around.

FunBucket
08-17-2004, 03:36 AM
Software makes the artist? So someone who has NO artistic ability can make really great artwork as long as they're using a great app? I see what you're saying, but I can't say I agree completely... a good app could definitely help an artist unleash their full potential, but I don't think a good app can substitute for talent. :shrug:

Gwot
08-17-2004, 03:41 AM
Heheh, I think he meant that the other way around... at least I hope so. :D

rock
08-17-2004, 04:06 AM
I think that sounds right: Art cannot create software; but software can create art. :)

FunBucket
08-17-2004, 04:10 AM
Okay, that makes sense. Just making sure we're all on the same page here. :thumbsup:

onlooker
08-17-2004, 04:15 AM
[QUOTE=onlooker]#1) If you can't admit your post is just slightly trolling for $$ arguments your already an idiot IMO.


Yes, I see you dont have the requierments to carry a civilised discution without trying to insult, so I will abstein myself to answer back with the same...
Also it seems to me you dont understand the value of money and how hard is to make them, well, go, run to your rich mom and ask for extra $$$, arogant child.


Silo it is a powerful and friendly modeler, and yes, it has the bridge polygons tool.
Oh, you mean your chosen "30 times more powerful" application do not have one?

In reverse order.

If your going to quote me. Please try, and get it right. The correct quote was "Modo outclasses SILO X 30 already"

Answer.
That is just my opinion. I think it's easy to see that Modo is at least 30 x further along in development than SILO.

Both of these apps are still so young they are difficult to judge against more robust applications such as Maya. Although I do think Modo is just that much further along in it's development. It may not be in the same class as Maya, and it may not ever get there, but it's much closer than SILO (about 30 X closer).
Comparatively in the 3D application realm Modo is just a toddler, but SILO isn't yet an infant. It's more like a fetus IMO, and that's not to say that I don't like, or intend to buy the application. At $109 it's hard not to like it.

On to your personal note. My comment was probably out of line, but in general I stand by my original thought. You have proven that yourself with your last set of cute remarks. But back to yesterday - There were plenty of people already throwing their line in the water waiting for people to take a bite at an XSI price war vs. any app argument after AVID dropped XSI to under $500 at SIGG. You just looked like another fisherman.

And lastly to the guy who can barely spell, and says I'm a child. To abstain is basically to refrain from. Not do the same as. Got it? :thumbsup:



:) Have a nice day.

Mouser
08-17-2004, 04:31 AM
I'm supprised nobody has chimed in yet.. but when I was at Siggraph, I took a look at Modo and it's UV tools.. the demo artist basically told me he still uses Maya to do his UV editing, since Modo's UV tools are pretty 'bare bones' .. we did do some interesting projections on arbitrary planes onto a deformed cylinder, but the uv editor didn't have a way to move or stitch the UV set... I didn't get any hands on time with it, but my guess is if you're expecting a 'UV Killer' you'll be looking other places than MODO, at least for the rev. that was being shown at Siggraph... who knows what will be in the final release

Gwot
08-17-2004, 04:53 AM
:eek:

That would explain the absence of any videos or even mention of UV tools on the Lux.com site. Hopefully this isn't true for the initial release. I would expect good UV tools for the price that has been declared.

Proximus
08-17-2004, 08:33 PM
@ onlooker

Good boy, you made your mommy proud, tried other languages too?
At least I tried to express myself in yours.
But I digress...
In case you don't understand, I refrained myself calling you back an idiot in return for your personal attack, to the fact that I only expressed my opinion without insulting anyone.
But I don't have to take your abuse.
So in the future, try to keep the discussion on the subject and be respectful.

Concerning Modo, I repeat, until an unrestricted Demo is out, all the discution is speculation.
But as I seen the same thing repeated over and over at Sig and played a little on an unguarded machine, I have my suspicions ...

Wegg
08-17-2004, 08:40 PM
Please do not let this thread digress into name calling.

CB_3D
08-17-2004, 11:30 PM
I donīt know why this always has to become so agressive??

All this should be good fun, more toys and tools IS A GOOD THING. Canīt everyone see that?
LW wonīrt dissappear, even IF Modo were a complete package. It would just have to evolute faster in its own direction.

Same for Silo. XSI dropping is a good thing, too.

And to the people who think that AVID has less revenue because of this, this is simply not true. 3D has been an EXTREMELY expanding market over the last years, there are soooooo much more paying customers now than 5 years ago, so itīs only natural that all the companies are restructuring their prices.

As for most professionals not knowing about Modo, Silo or any other upcoming or existing alternatives, i really donīt think that is very realistic. Of course they do. Thatīs why they are called "professionals", because they are in a competetive market and to stay there you have to stay minimally informed.

Apart from that, who doesnīt have internet these days?!

Ok, talking too much already. Point is, take it all as good news. More apps on the market is VERY VERY good for us all, independent from where we come, be it LW, MAX,XSI or MAYA (or C4D, which quickly seems to become the 5th alternative)

LIGHTEN UP,PEOPLE!

onlooker
08-18-2004, 01:29 AM
@ onlooker

Good boy, you made your mommy proud, tried other languages too?
At least I tried to express myself in yours.
But I digress...
In case you don't understand, I refrained myself calling you back an idiot in return for your personal attack, to the fact that I only expressed my opinion without insulting anyone.
But I don't have to take your abuse.
So in the future, try to keep the discussion on the subject and be respectful.

Concerning Modo, I repeat, until an unrestricted Demo is out, all the discution is speculation.
But as I seen the same thing repeated over and over at Sig and played a little on an unguarded machine, I have my suspicions ...

Well that explains a lot. I did not mention it in the last post, but now that you don't seem to read, or understand american english that well I'll explain it to you. I never exactly wrote that you were an idiot. You went and branded yourself with the title later. So if you want to blame someone for this so called abuse blame yourself because I meant no disrespect. You've been bringing it on yourself.

onlooker
08-18-2004, 01:40 AM
LW wonīrt dissappear, even IF Modo were a complete package. It would just have to evolute faster in its own direction.

Same for Silo. XSI dropping is a good thing, too.

And to the people who think that AVID has less revenue because of this, this is simply not true. 3D has been an EXTREMELY expanding market over the last years, there are soooooo much more paying customers now than 5 years ago, so itīs only natural that all the companies are restructuring their prices.

As for most professionals not knowing about Modo, Silo or any other upcoming or existing alternatives, i really donīt think that is very realistic. Of course they do. Thatīs why they are called "professionals", because they are in a competetive market and to stay there you have to stay minimally informed.

Apart from that, who doesnīt have internet these days?!

Ok, talking too much already. Point is, take it all as good news. More apps on the market is VERY VERY good for us all, independent from where we come, be it LW, MAX,XSI or MAYA (or C4D, which quickly seems to become the 5th alternative)

LIGHTEN UP,PEOPLE!

I couldn't agree more. especially about XSI's price drop having no ill effects on revenue. I think XSI is going to be the hottest selling package of the season. And I know a lot of Mac users that were waiting for a better 3D graphics card from Apple see this as a sign that it's time to stop waiting on Apple, and go where the opportunity is. That was definitely the straw that broke the camels back for a few friends of mine. It's looks like finally Avid has it's revenge on Final Cut Pro.

Chuck Baker
08-18-2004, 09:43 PM
I'm a Lightwave 3D user. While Lightwave has some advantages over other 3D software, Newtek doesn't seem able to take it much further without their former development team ... For this reason I must move to new software.
... For Lightwave users it will take them to the next level. Hi, Beam!

For the overwhelming majority of LightWave users the release of LightWave [8] has put to rest the speculation that NewTek would not be further developing our product, LightWave 3D. For those who remain skeptical of our capability and our will in this regard, our future updates will demonstrate that such speculation is and always was baseless. Every aspect of the application will be developed and advanced and NewTek will do everything necessary to maintain LightWave as an application of choice for 3D content creation.

NewTek will most certainly take LightWave to the next level.

minus23
08-18-2004, 09:51 PM
Oh boy... I think it's gonna get hot in here. :) Nice of a LW developer too chip in anyhoo.

Thalaxis
08-18-2004, 09:54 PM
Hi, Beam!

NewTek will most certainly take LightWave to the next level.
I knew there was a reason I didn't want to give up my dongle ;)

Thanks for chiming in!

So... when are you shipping the anti-Modo? :D

Chuck Baker
08-18-2004, 10:05 PM
Lightwave is in need of a serious core fix which is a hot topic.
Hi, Rich!

NewTek is most certainly addressing core issues and architecture, and will be doing so aggressively in each update cycle, including maintenance cycles.

Dr. Andrew Cross now oversees LightWave development and he does not favor developing an architecture and then leaving the core static and just adding to it - he prefers to keep the architecture up to date with current software technology by addressing it in each and every cycle, and that is now the pattern of LightWave development. Considerable core work was done for the 8.0 release and that will continue for each subsequent release, maintenance or ordinal.

Chuck Baker
08-18-2004, 10:08 PM
Oh boy... I think it's gonna get hot in here. I hope not. I just felt these two items needed to be responded to.


Nice of a LW developer too chip in anyhoo. But time to bow out, I believe, and consider it enough said! :)

Beamtracer
08-18-2004, 10:22 PM
Hi Chuck. Thanks for replying. You've always been one to listen diligently to Lightwavers' concerns over the years. With new 3D apps coming out, and older 3D apps dropping their prices, it sure is a competitive time in the 3D application business.

onlooker
08-18-2004, 10:33 PM
Hi Chuck. Thanks for replying. You've always been one to listen diligently to Lightwavers' concerns over the years. With new 3D apps coming out, and older 3D apps dropping their prices, it sure is a competitive time in the 3D application business.

I don't think he's coming back, but I think a lot of tables have turned in the past few weeks that will lead to some more less dramatic, but significant changes from some companies relatively soon. It almost seems like a necessity to remain in play.

Although Alias may have a better time staying close to where they are with integrated motion builder.

richcz3
08-18-2004, 10:44 PM
I've been doing some numbers comparing Maya, XSI, and Lightwave. For me LW8 is still the best program out of the box and including NT's upgrade policies. I think allot of people overlook the cost of maintainence when they read $2000 for apps. I am wringing my hands on the costs of maintaining licenses on the other packages and their prices quickly outpace LW within the first two years of ownership. Since most if not all companies are moving toward 1 year cyclic on Version releases, the costs add up quick.

It's encouraging to read that LW development is pressing forward and I look forward to those updates for 8. I expect I will be in line to buy LW9 as I am getting my head around other apps. It's an interesting time to be in 3D for many different reasons. It feels like a buyers market but buyer beware.


richcz3

kidcodea
08-19-2004, 01:51 AM
Hi, Beam!

For the overwhelming majority of LightWave users the release of LightWave [8] has put to rest the speculation that NewTek would not be further developing our product, LightWave 3D. For those who remain skeptical of our capability and our will in this regard, our future updates will demonstrate that such speculation is and always was baseless. Every aspect of the application will be developed and advanced and NewTek will do everything necessary to maintain LightWave as an application of choice for 3D content creation.

NewTek will most certainly take LightWave to the next level.
yeah but wouldnt you just love to have modo as the modeler of lw9? i would.
i still own my digiview, i love tvpaint, i dig my newtekness, but man lightwave is becoming prehistorical. going on 9 version now and i still think it stoped being cool at 5.5...
newtek usually buy the good shit. tvpaint... fusion....
shame u cant buy luxology :) .. who knows...maybe they will buy newtek assets in 2 years.
if anyone deserves it...are the ones that made that company :)
peace.

peanuckle
08-19-2004, 02:03 AM
...I think newtek will fair very well in the years to come. Hey, competition only breeds greater things for consumers.

pea~

minus23
08-19-2004, 02:36 AM
Just an asside.. even though I'm sure the Nexus renderer... (huge speculation I know) I'm sure will be great... I do hope the API / SDK is open enough to allow possiblity and interest to have 3rd party developers develop their renderers to be used directly in the Nexus app. That is.... if Nexus exists yadda yadda...

richcz3
08-19-2004, 03:48 AM
kidcodea In the current and most likely future business planning; consolidation/buyout/mergers may just be the answer for many companies that need to solidify their market base. If Luxology finds that developing/marketing Modo @ X dollars is a greater a task than their X $ returns, it could be prime for buyout as it has no market history. Don't mistaken owner Biographies with new Tool performance. This is a new company and product.
I am sure the XSI price anouncement caught many companies flat footed and has them planning more aggresive than ever to minimize migration by building value in aquiriong existing market assets.

richcz3

CB_3D
08-19-2004, 06:25 AM
:scream: Yarrrgh, iīve had it now (just kidding, folks, donīt flame me:-)

Butr seriously, where was this NEXUS renderer ever mentioned??? Where does this info/name/whatever come from?

I mean, since we are already having fun speculating about stuff like buyouts of companies without knowing ANYTHING at all about their financial backgrounds....

So, NEXUS, what about it?

faulknermano
08-19-2004, 06:34 AM
I'm not sure about the Interface but I love the fact that I can switch to the Maya Viewport Controls, I really hate having different viewport controls in different programs.

I'm pretty eager to test the Demo Version, hope it'll be available soon - If Modo would also feature an equivalent to Silos Topology Brush...
i'm with you here.

if modo delievers, it would be a nice app to complement maya. i use lw to model most of the time and then bring it back to maya, but if modo truly provides me a stable platform to do models lw-style and yet transpose the model back to maya directly as an .mb/.ma, that could enhance the workflow alot. if i could edit blendshapes / covert endomorphs into blendshapes in modo, save an .mb, use that .mb as a reference in maya, i could almost work like i used to in lw! :D

Beamtracer
08-19-2004, 12:03 PM
Nexus / Modo should have a speed advantage on the competition. A program written from the ground up to take advantage of modern processors. 64-bit savvy. 100% multithreaded (takes advantage of multiple processors).

Some of the other major 3D apps are only partly multithreaded, depending on what functions you perform. It's a lot of work to upgrade a legacy app to be multithreaded.

However, as time goes on and people migrate to multiprocessor machines, and dual-core (2 in 1) processors, multithreading will be the factor that boosts speed more than anything else.

Thalaxis
08-19-2004, 04:09 PM
Butr seriously, where was this NEXUS renderer ever mentioned??? Where does this info/name/whatever come from?

It's still speculation. I think the name is the result of confusion, because Lux demoed stuff in a place called the Nexus suite. Lux haven't made any public indications about the existence of a renderer yet, so it's hard to say what they really have in mind.

Not that I'd rule out a renderer, but it's definitely not the only other thing those guys could have planned in addition to a modeller.

tjnyc
08-19-2004, 04:32 PM
It's still speculation. I think the name is the result of confusion, because Lux demoed stuff in a place called the Nexus suite. Lux haven't made any public indications about the existence of a renderer yet, so it's hard to say what they really have in mind.

Not that I'd rule out a renderer, but it's definitely not the only other thing those guys could have planned in addition to a modeller.
I talked to a friend who saw the SECRET unveiling and he pretty much gave me the gist of what it is. I believe CGNetworks is coming out with the info soon. All I can reiterate is think of a better FPRIME.

Cheers,