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Thalaxis
08-19-2004, 03:47 PM
I talked to a friend who saw the SECRET unveiling and he pretty much gave me the gist of what it is. I believe CGNetworks is coming out with the info soon.
I hope so -- because now I'm even MORE curious.

The Modo videos had me very intrigued already.

Tap, tap, tap...

Zithen
08-19-2004, 03:53 PM
It's still speculation. I think the name is the result of confusion, because Lux demoed stuff in a place called the Nexus suite. Lux haven't made any public indications about the existence of a renderer yet, so it's hard to say what they really have in mind.

Not that I'd rule out a renderer, but it's definitely not the only other thing those guys could have planned in addition to a modeller.It's not speculation. That is the name of the renderer and animation part. The "Nexus" suite is all the three programs working together.
I'd say it's without a doubt the Lightwave that those programers wanted to make...and probably the Lightwave that many users wanted. For some reason, they couldn't do that at Newtek.
Anyway...once Nexus comes out, I'd say it will have a solid chance of blowing away some of the competition. Newtek is saying that they will continue to update the core architechture in the following updates. But I am skeptical as to how they can modernize it to the level of a softimage or the Nexus. It took Lux about 2.5 years to shape their architechture alone. It appears to be a very modern architechture. I'm a little hyped about Modo...but it's the Nexus that I'm waiting for. I think when that comes out, I'll probably move to that app. Though C4D is looking pretty good. My eye is on them too. And of course, Messiah is an awesome app that's ahead of the curve.

Yeah...I saw Lux's sneak peek. I can just say that as a Lightwave user...I felt I was looking at the LW8 or LWX that feel I should be getting. As someone else said, the Nexus is like having Lightwave on some serious...serious steriods.

Thalaxis
08-19-2004, 03:56 PM
Yeah...I saw Lux's sneak peek. I can just say that as a Lightwave user...I felt I was looking at the LW8 or LWX that feel I should be getting. As someone else said, the Nexus is like having Lightwave on some serious...serious steriods.
Enough with the teasing already! <smack> :bounce:
(just kidding ;))

Dammit, there are just too many toys coming from SIGGRAPH this year. Sigh.
:eek:

tjnyc
08-19-2004, 04:12 PM
Anyway...once Nexus comes out, I'd say it will have a solid chance of blowing away some of the competition. Newtek is saying that they will continue to update the core architechture in the following updates. But I am skeptical as to how they can modernize it to the level of a softimage or the Nexus. It took Lux about 2.5 years to shape their architechture alone. It appears to be a very modern architechture. I'm a little hyped about Modo...but it's the Nexus that I'm waiting for. I think when that comes out, I'll probably move to that app.
I'm going to have to agree here. Just my opinion, but I can't see Newtek being able to compete with what is coming up from Luxology, without some serious rewrite of LW core. I think LW will have more to worry about from Luxology's future application as a competitor than XSI.


Cheers,

Cman
08-19-2004, 04:45 PM
[...]
I'd say it's without a doubt the Lightwave that those programers wanted to make...and probably the Lightwave that many users wanted. For some reason, they couldn't do that at Newtek.

Hmmm... maybe they wanted to make all the money from the software, instead of just getting paychecks and percentages?

Zithen
08-19-2004, 05:01 PM
Hmmm... maybe they wanted to make all the money from the software, instead of just getting paychecks and percentages?It's not important. What is important is that there are some great new software coming from Lux and some great updates from Maxon, pmG and others. Newtek will have to do what it's supposed to do. But the proof will be in the puddin'.

richcz3
08-19-2004, 05:33 PM
My Speculation: In a few days weeks this render (Nexus) module will be showcased as "in development" with a planned feature list. Maybe even some benchmarks to draw attention. Neither Modo or Nexus are exclusive to each other (thats the whole point). Buy Modo now and get a favorable price when the Nexus module is completed. Some point after that Modo v1.0 will be released.


richcz3

Thalaxis
08-19-2004, 05:37 PM
My Speculation: In a few days weeks this render (Nexus) module will be showcased as "in development" with a planned feature list. Maybe even some benchmarks to draw attention. Neither Modo or Nexus are exclusive to each other (thats the whole point). Buy Modo now and get a favorable price when the Nexus module is completed. Some point after that Modo v1.0 will be released.

That's probably also when they'll reveal their LW8 sweetheart deal as well, hopefully along with a demo version :)

virtualinsanity
08-19-2004, 05:45 PM
I talked to a friend who saw the SECRET unveiling and he pretty much gave me the gist of what it is. I believe CGNetworks is coming out with the info soon. All I can reiterate is think of a better FPRIME.

Cheers,

hehe a friend of mine went to the SF Bay Area LW user group last night. Brad Peebler came and demoed Modo and gave a very tiny sneak peek into Nexus.

And from what he told me, its nothing like FPrime. Somebody there asked if Steve Worley had contributed to this project or FPrime is a part of this, and it was a firm no. Most of the tools being built at Lux are from the group up and from what he tells me, Nexus will definitely bring a lot of power and flexibility to those who use it, and that includes that renderer and the animation.

Gwot
08-19-2004, 05:56 PM
So long as modo and "nexus" actually work well together (especially for character setup) and don't go the same route that Modeler and Layout went in this area, I'll be interested. C4D's module approach works way better than the hub. Continually bouncing back and forth between modeler and layout for basic morph and weight map tweaks has been a royal pain in the @$$.

Things like joint morphs require access to real modeling tools AND bone transforms simultaneously and should be found in the same environment as your animation tools. Weight and UV maps too. This is why XSI rocks so much. All I ask is that Lux don't repeat the same mistakes again and I'll definitely take a good look at their software suite. Also, having to learn 2 separate UI's in order to model and animate/render within the same package is retarded. Keep it simple and consistent.

Nando
08-19-2004, 06:06 PM
Gwot,

Since were all still waiting for the Write up on Modo, and I dont want to steal the thunder.
I, all I can say is folks can have it both ways, when they release Nexus.
So no worry's about developers following the old path, they are definetly on a New one. ;)

Thalaxis
08-19-2004, 06:12 PM
out developers following the old path, they are definetly on a New one. ;)
That UI looks VERY slick.

Zithen
08-19-2004, 06:19 PM
So long as modo and "nexus" actually work well together (especially for character setup) and don't go the same route that Modeler and Layout went in this area, I'll be interested. C4D's module approach works way better than the hub. Continually bouncing back and forth between modeler and layout for basic morph and weight map tweaks has been a royal pain in the @$$.

Things like joint morphs require access to real modeling tools AND bone transforms simultaneously and should be found in the same environment as your animation tools. Weight and UV maps too. This is why XSI rocks so much. All I ask is that Lux don't repeat the same mistakes again and I'll definitely take a good look at their software suite. Also, having to learn 2 separate UI's in order to model and animate/render within the same package is retarded. Keep it simple and consistent.My man, from what I saw that won't even be an issue in Nexus. Just as you see in the Modo demos of being able to create a window and have whatever you want in there. Same concept. In the Nexus architecture...they say that everything works with everything, and everything can be animated. And I mean everything.

That's why I say...I don't see how "some other companies" will be able to compete with that type of architecture/workflow. People seem to make the idea of being able to update a software's architecture as something you can do incrementally. I have serious, serious doubts that type of software will be able to compete with something like Nexus, messiah and others.

Gwot
08-19-2004, 06:34 PM
Good to hear Zithen.

Looking forward to this more and more, despite my outward skepticism. =]

CB_3D
08-19-2004, 06:51 PM
Ok, thx for clearing that up. Now i am REALLY curious to follow this.

ghopper
08-19-2004, 07:24 PM
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=163124

The special guest was Brad Peebler and he demoed MODO. How was the demo, any news about MODO ?

virtualinsanity
08-19-2004, 07:25 PM
So long as modo and "nexus" actually work well together (especially for character setup) and don't go the same route that Modeler and Layout went in this area, I'll be interested. C4D's module approach works way better than the hub. Continually bouncing back and forth between modeler and layout for basic morph and weight map tweaks has been a royal pain in the @$$.

Things like joint morphs require access to real modeling tools AND bone transforms simultaneously and should be found in the same environment as your animation tools. Weight and UV maps too. This is why XSI rocks so much. All I ask is that Lux don't repeat the same mistakes again and I'll definitely take a good look at their software suite. Also, having to learn 2 separate UI's in order to model and animate/render within the same package is retarded. Keep it simple and consistent.
Gwot: From what i have seen being at a demo of Lux's tool suite, everything within Lux's pipeline seamlessly integrates into the other. AND Its not LW at all. LW will require a huge rewrite to come close to what Lux's is cooking.

Like Zithen pointed out, everything, AND I AND HE MEAN EVERYTHING, can be animated. Almost Houdini-esque.

The API for the entire suite is Perl Driven, if you didn't know.

The Macros in Modo kick ass. Workflow is key for Lux and this carries over in the entire tool suite. What takes 12 clicks in your john doe 3d modeling animation rendering package can be entirely mapped to a single hot key in Modo. And the short cut key combinations are mindblowing. You hot key to your regular keys and using any ALT-CTRL-SHIFT combo you can think of. Can you imagine having that many key shortcuts in a package?

The three suites are seperate but are seamless integrated within each other. It is truly a completely fluid and maleable next gen product, which something like XSI or C4D or Maya or LW will require a complete redo and a lot of rethinking on their parts to do.

The way Lux is makin' the renderer, after talking with Brad, it can hook to other renderers. It can take on massive amounts of geometry. And I mean MASSIVELY HUGE.

The animation component is amazing as well but i can't talk about it muchas I think I have already said too much.

All i can say, i will be in line to buy it as I am a lightwave user. and the tools are worth their price even at the introductory pricing of 695, IMO.

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 07:44 PM
Yes, take with a grain of salt as they are still developing stuff and things can change big in a short span of time as the 3d market now is seeing a dramatic change in prices and level of competition.

___________________________________________

The Demo was mind numbingly incredible.

I was at the presentation Brad made at the San Diego during last year's Siggraph but I didn't know how far they had reached now and i have to tell you, Luxology is doing it right.

We did get a showing of the tools but except for Modo, we can't talk about them yet. A lot is still in development.

But one thing I will say: From what i have seen, everything within Lux's pipeline seamlessly integrates into the other. AND Its not LW at all. LW will require a huge rewrite to come close to what Lux's is cooking.

The API for the entire suite is Perl Driven, if you didn't know and hookups are very easy.

Modo Macro capability is going to be a huge time save as well as the hot key.
The context based pie menus are great. And Mouse Remapping, which they will further improve on, a pure joy.

Modo, and probably their entire tool suite, can handle shitloads of geometry. You think LW or Electricimage were good? Oh dear, Modo will blow you away in terms of geometry manipulation.

Like the topology brush in Silo, there's a thing to do exactly that in Modo.

Modo also has Splines and Booleans. Silo and Wings.... well don't.

Vertex/Edge manipulators in Modo are far more superior than Wings or Silo, from what i have seen.

plenty of snaps and constraints and coordinate systems to keep you happy.

The one thing we didn't see were the UV tools but he showed a lot of stuff in about 50 minutes.

The tools are worth their price even at the introductory pricing of 695, IMO. after all, they've been at it for about two and a half years. :)

And there will be introductory pricing for LW users.

Also, Luxology is building its tools with the intention of cooperating with other formats and packages. Its open endedness speaks volumes compared to some of the other vendors out that feel its good to put down the competition. The Lux is trying to make sure their tools fit into the user's existing work flow and thus their developing everything in a way that you can choose what you like. With this in mind, I am definitely going to Siggraph next year. :)

I must stop here

thanks for reading this insane rant :)

richcz3
08-19-2004, 07:46 PM
If Modo/Nexus is what Lightwave should've,would've,could've been, I would expect NewTek to respond in some way. I am sure there's allot of tension between the two companies. That LW users "Nice Price" offer has to roil some NT folks. I am sure there are plenty of pin striped suits on both sides waiting for the other shoe (Nexus) to drop. :sad:

richcz3

Gwot
08-19-2004, 07:48 PM
The animation component is amazing as well but i can't talk about it muchas I think I have already said too much.

Argh! And this is what I MOST want to hear about. =]
I've seen enough of modo already to know that it will be a competitive modeler. Can't wait to see how well it works with um... itself, for animation. =]

jlinhart
08-19-2004, 07:57 PM
The API for the entire suite is Perl Driven, if you didn't know. I need to clear this one up. The API isn't based on Perl. Perl is simply the first scripting language that is supported in modo.

.jason
www.luxology.com (http://www.luxology.com)

ThomasMahler
08-19-2004, 07:58 PM
Like the topology brush in Silo, there's a thing to do exactly that in Modo.

What? Is that official? If so... wow, that'd be great :)

I'd still like to see some good UV Tools, but Modo has really caught my attention now... Well, again, let's wait for the demo!

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 07:59 PM
If Modo/Nexus is what Lightwave should've,would've,could've been, I would expect NewTek to respond in some way. I am sure there's allot of tension between the two companies. That LW users "Nice Price" offer has to roil some NT folks. I am sure there are plenty of pin striped suits on both sides waiting for the other shoe (Nexus) to drop. :sad:

richcz3
richcz3: i don't think luxology will not disappoint. thats just me. i am a huge LW fan but NT dropped the ball in many ways in my mind. L8 could've been soooo much better. I don't have 8 but some of my friends did upgrade and to them, alot could have been done to make some core changes instead of doing plugin integration. I like the character tools quite a bit in L8 but i use messiah:animate for that and just use LW' for rendering. As for the LW rendering, it could sure use a speed increase.

hehehe i know thats old. But it will be interesting to see what Newtek has up their sleeve as LW is growing old while the other apps are growing :)

shingo
08-19-2004, 07:59 PM
[QUOTE=virtualinsanity]
The three suites are seperate but are seamless integrated within each other. It is truly a completely fluid and maleable next gen product, which something like XSI or C4D or Maya or LW will require a complete redo and a lot of rethinking on their parts to do.

QUOTE]

Can I ask you if yin fact you have used XSI or Maya? Alias and Softimage redo and rethink their products all the time. As far as pipeline integration goes, they are both leading the pack and for good reason. XSI 4 in fact has a complete XML front end now and can host other apps inside the UI. No need for modules per se becuase they are all inside the one app.

AS for hotkeys and macros, what's the big deal anyway? XSI and Maya have extensive scripting and both allow you to assign scripts to hotkeys so what's the big deal?

If you're a Lightwave user, then fair enough, go for it, but try to avoid making these unfounded generalisations.

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 08:00 PM
I need to clear this one up. The API isn't based on Perl. Perl is simply the first scripting language that is supported in modo.

.jason
www.luxology.com (http://www.luxology.com)
I stand corrected, Jason.
I just thought from the way the site lists it was Perl.

tjnyc
08-19-2004, 08:06 PM
To be fair XSI has had the ability for macro-type comboing of tools and such for a while, so this is not new. Though, it seems Modo is more robust at it than XSI.

FunBucket
08-19-2004, 08:10 PM
Okay, so there IS an animation part to it! NOW I'm excited. One thing though... is this animation/render module gonna have simulations? The whole package is gonna have modeling, animation, and rendering... SUPPOSEDLY... is it gonna have dynamics? Particles (hypervoxels)? Any kind of hair, cloth, fluids? Or maybe Sasquatch, Syflex, and RealFlow will have connections to it?

I'd like to think it would have SOMETHING. At least particles and dynamics. Then we could just wait for the plugins to have connections.

Oh, I'd assume the animation/rendering stuff will work on OSX as well? :)

SheepFactory
08-19-2004, 08:14 PM
Like Zithen pointed out, everything, AND I AND HE MEAN EVERYTHING, can be animated. Almost Houdini-esque.

So it is in xsi , and maya.


The Macros in Modo kick ass. Workflow is key for Lux and this carries over in the entire tool suite. What takes 12 clicks in your john doe 3d modeling animation rendering package can be entirely mapped to a single hot key in Modo. And the short cut key combinations are mindblowing. You hot key to your regular keys and using any ALT-CTRL-SHIFT combo you can think of. Can you imagine having that many key shortcuts in a package?

So it is in XSI and Maya , with the exception of the viewport manipulation key. You have to use ALT in maya and S in XSI. Good job Lux for breaking free of that limitation that I dont know why it exists in the first place. C4d also lets you map the camera controls to any key you desire since R8.5 , so this is not a modo first or exclusive.



The three suites are seperate but are seamless integrated within each other. It is truly a completely fluid and maleable next gen product, which something like XSI or C4D or Maya or LW will require a complete redo and a lot of rethinking on their parts to do.


I beg to differ. Lets take xsi as an example again , all the modules of the software (modelling , animation , simulation and rendering) already work together %100. why do you say it requires a complete redo? have you even used em?

The way Lux is makin' the renderer, after talking with Brad, it can hook to other renderers. It can take on massive amounts of geometry. And I mean MASSIVELY HUGE.

Thats not breaking news. Every renderer who hopes to be used in production has to have that feature.

The animation component is amazing as well but i can't talk about it muchas I think I have already said too much.

Wish you could

Thalaxis
08-19-2004, 08:19 PM
I need to clear this one up. The API isn't based on Perl. Perl is simply the first scripting language that is supported in modo.

Out of curiosity, do you plan to support others, or just leave the door open for 3rd parties to add their favorite scripting language?

chadtheartist
08-19-2004, 09:04 PM
Hmmm... all this new info on Modo is enticing. I'm mostly interested in just the modeler, but if these future additional programs can be added later, then that leaves options. Actually, it might be interesting to see how they handle the animation and rendering products. Wouldn't it be kind of cool if they made it to where each one can be a stand alone application that could fit into any 3D apps pipeline, i.e. .ma files, .lwo files, etc... ?

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 09:04 PM
So it is in XSI and Maya , with the exception of the viewport manipulation key. You have to use ALT in maya and S in XSI. Good job Lux for breaking free of that limitation that I dont know why it exists in the first place. C4d also lets you map the camera controls to any key you desire since R8.5 , so this is not a modo first or exclusive.

yes, you are right. I never meant to imply its exclusive or a first. Just that it was a lot more extensive in Modo.

I beg to differ. Lets take xsi as an example again , all the modules of the software (modelling , animation , simulation and rendering) already work together %100. why do you say it requires a complete redo? have you even used em?

Actually yeah have used both Maya and XSI and they do that very well.
What I forgot to mention is that in Lux's case, they are standalones but still in a way integrate together. Its hard to explain without saying a lot :)

Wish you could

So do i. Hopefully they will release more info on the renderer and animation portion of their tools :)

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 09:06 PM
Oh, I'd assume the animation/rendering stuff will work on OSX as well? :)
Actually Yes it will. I am an OS X. Lux is developing using XCode on Mac OS X and will ship their tools for both Windows and Mac OS X, as pointed out on luxology.com :)

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 09:07 PM
To be fair XSI has had the ability for macro-type comboing of tools and such for a while, so this is not new. Though, it seems Modo is more robust at it than XSI.
I have used XSI so I can honestly, yes, it is a lot more robust :)

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 09:11 PM
[QUOTE=virtualinsanity]
The three suites are seperate but are seamless integrated within each other. It is truly a completely fluid and maleable next gen product, which something like XSI or C4D or Maya or LW will require a complete redo and a lot of rethinking on their parts to do.

QUOTE]

Can I ask you if yin fact you have used XSI or Maya? Alias and Softimage redo and rethink their products all the time. As far as pipeline integration goes, they are both leading the pack and for good reason. XSI 4 in fact has a complete XML front end now and can host other apps inside the UI. No need for modules per se becuase they are all inside the one app.

AS for hotkeys and macros, what's the big deal anyway? XSI and Maya have extensive scripting and both allow you to assign scripts to hotkeys so what's the big deal?

If you're a Lightwave user, then fair enough, go for it, but try to avoid making these unfounded generalisations.
my apologies, not my intent at all.

I might be a LW user but I actually have used and use XSI and Maya and I am in total agreement with you on the level of extensive scripting that both those apps provide.

Just mentioning it that Modo sort of takes it up a notch and in many ways simplifies it, even from Maya and XSI standpoint. :)

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 09:13 PM
What? Is that official? If so... wow, that'd be great :)

I'd still like to see some good UV Tools, but Modo has really caught my attention now... Well, again, let's wait for the demo!
Brad demoed it for us. You can create new topology, whether it be vertices, polys or entire meshes on top of an existing mesh :)

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 09:17 PM
Hmmm... all this new info on Modo is enticing. I'm mostly interested in just the modeler, but if these future additional programs can be added later, then that leaves options. Actually, it might be interesting to see how they handle the animation and rendering products. Wouldn't it be kind of cool if they made it to where each one can be a stand alone application that could fit into any 3D apps pipeline, i.e. .ma files, .lwo files, etc... ?
*sigh*
we'll all have to wait and see about the rendering and animation portion of the suite as it is still being developed.

digitalfog
08-19-2004, 09:25 PM
Well, I was also present at the demo last night, and without speaking specifics, I am VERY interested in Lux's product. LW is all I use but I will be adding this to my toolset.


Modo is kewl, but its the future that has me salivating:buttrock:

shingo
08-19-2004, 09:55 PM
my apologies, not my intent at all.

I might be a LW user but I actually have used and use XSI and Maya and I am in total agreement with you on the level of extensive scripting that both those apps provide.

Just mentioning it that Modo sort of takes it up a notch and in many ways simplifies it, even from Maya and XSI standpoint. :)
No problem nuclearfesse. I had a look at some of the movies on luxology.com and it does look pretty impressive I must agree. They have certainly thought things through pretty well in terms of UI and interface though I did notice some Lightwave legacy approaches which I feel may get in the way to some degree. Using layers for operations (such sas fo the constraints) to me has always been bad workflow and I am dissapointed that they stuck with it.

Having to create maps to apply creases is another legacy thing that seems limiting. Makes no sense why that shoul be there. I guess the real test will be to see what their approach to animation will be. And in that regard, let's hope they completely forget about doing things the Lightwave way.

Cheers vbmenu_register("postmenu_1520067", true);

BigJay
08-19-2004, 10:07 PM
so does anyone know, asked if the price includes the modules as they come out or will they price it like Cinema4D where each module is a seperate price?

Griffon
08-19-2004, 10:08 PM
Out of curiosity, do you plan to support others, or just leave the door open for 3rd parties to add their favorite scripting language?
Nothing currently in the plan, but that doesn't mean in won't happen. It's a simple interface, so a 3rd party could easily hook in another scripting language like TCL, python or LUA.

-Eric
Luxology

fez
08-19-2004, 10:08 PM
"Having to create maps to apply creases is another legacy thing that seems limiting"

How so? Weight maps in my experience offer amazing flexibility. Weight maps in XSI are fantastic even if they were lifted right out of lightwave.

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 10:08 PM
No problem nuclearfesse. I had a look at some of the movies on luxology.com and it does look pretty impressive I must agree. They have certainly thought things through pretty well in terms of UI and interface though I did notice some Lightwave legacy approaches which I feel may get in the way to some degree. Using layers for operations (such sas fo the constraints) to me has always been bad workflow and I am dissapointed that they stuck with it.

Having to create maps to apply creases is another legacy thing that seems limiting. Makes no sense why that shoul be there. I guess the real test will be to see what their approach to animation will be. And in that regard, let's hope they completely forget about doing things the Lightwave way.

Cheers vbmenu_register("postmenu_1520067", true);
hehe i agree on that. there are things in there that look like LW but after seeing it in person, its dont think its going to be much of a hampering thing at all but i guess time will tell :)

actually the one thing i can tell you about the animation module is nothing is legacy about it. there's nothing in it that lightwave like as far as i am concerned. its so much more and then some and once again thats all i can say :)

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 10:09 PM
so does anyone know, asked if the price includes the modules as they come out or will they price it like Cinema4D where each module is a seperate price?
the only pricing that was mentioned at the meeting was Modo pricing. Brad didn't mention anything about the pricing on the other modules as they are still in dev.

mushroomgod
08-19-2004, 10:12 PM
the only pricing that was mentioned at the meeting was Modo pricing. Brad didn't mention anything about the pricing on the other modules as they are still in dev

and what was the price?

shingo
08-19-2004, 10:13 PM
"Having to create maps to apply creases is another legacy thing that seems limiting"

How so? Weight maps in my experience offer amazing flexibility. Weight maps in XSI are fantastic even if they were lifted right out of lightwave.
Lifted righ out of Lightwave heh? You really believe that? C'mon, how do you know? XSI 1.0 and LW 6 shipped at about the same time and both had weight maps implemented, so you can hardly accuse Soft developers of attending a LW6 launch and running back to the office to squeeze them in tehre. I was going to NDA demo's of XSI before Lighhtwave 6 ever hit the shelves and weight maps were well and truly in there.

As for weight maps in general, there's nothing wrong with them per se, but having to apply a weight map to apply edge creases seems an unnecessary step. No need to do that in XSI or Maya, both of which create the clusters on the fly. You see, not everythign in Modod is necessarily better or faster.

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 10:15 PM
and what was the price?
$895 with the introductory offer of $695...

they are also going to do a special for LW Users at $500, according to him

Hopefully they will consider include other apps in that special $500 pricing as well...

mushroomgod
08-19-2004, 10:17 PM
$895 with the introductory offer of $695...

they are also going to do a special for LW Users at $500, according to him

Hopefully they will consider include other apps in that special $500 pricing as well...

from what iv seen of modo I still think thats a little pricey..but thats all iv seen so maybe its a good price.

I would like to know if thats the price you pay wherever you are in the world though, Im going to be mighty pissed off if its going to cost me 30% more becasue I live in the UK :hmm:

shingo
08-19-2004, 10:18 PM
hehe i agree on that. there are things in there that look like LW but after seeing it in person, its dont think its going to be much of a hampering thing at all but i guess time will tell :)

Actually the one thing i can tell you about the animation module is nothing is legacy about it. there's nothing in it that lightwave like as far as i am concerned. its so much more and then some and once again thats all i can say :)
With all due respects, to say it's an improvement on Lightwave's animation tools is nothing to get too excited about. Whe you consider what the main players are doing (XSI, Maya, Motion Builder and even MAX now that it integrated CS), Lightwave is prehistoric. Unless you've used all of these apps in production, then it is premature to assume that Luxologgy's animation module is going to leapfrog them in any way.

CB_3D
08-19-2004, 10:21 PM
so curious what they have cooking apart from modo:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

shingo
08-19-2004, 10:24 PM
now come on, what do you think is the purpose of these "secret" screenings?:wise:

its basic marketing, a move to build up the hype. they want you guys to tell us!! no really, im not kidding on this one. i come from marketing myself and this is the oldest trick in the world,LOL

so, speak at once, messengers of the light:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Good point, unless they made every attendee sign an NDA, then it makes sense that they intended the information to be leaked one way or another. I've been under NDA's for a number of apps and believe me, if they were really serious about keeping thei stuff secret, you wouldn't have been shown whatever it is that you're not supposed to talk about.

fez
08-19-2004, 10:35 PM
"Lifted righ out of Lightwave heh? You really believe that?"

Yep, along with subd isolines and phantom points. Of course in the case of "weight maps" they did not even bother to change the terminology. http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

"You see, not everythign in Modod is necessarily better or faster"

Are you beta tester? I know I'm not. We'll find out what, if anything, in Modo is "better or faster" in a few months. Weight maps will hopefully provide more flexibility for weighting edges. More than Maya anyway. Last time I weighted a subd edge in Maya it only offered me three levels of edge sharpness (that was a while ago though, so maybe they fixed that?) Anyway, I like edge weighting with maps because Weight Maps give modelers a more dynamic display of which edges are weighted and with what values.


Lifted righ out of Lightwave heh? You really believe that? C'mon, how do you know? XSI 1.0 and LW 6 shipped at about the same time and both had weight maps implemented, so you can hardly accuse Soft developers of attending a LW6 launch and running back to the office to squeeze them in tehre. I was going to NDA demo's of XSI before Lighhtwave 6 ever hit the shelves and weight maps were well and truly in there.

As for weight maps in general, there's nothing wrong with them per se, but having to apply a weight map to apply edge creases seems an unnecessary step. No need to do that in XSI or Maya, both of which create the clusters on the fly. You see, not everythign in Modod is necessarily better or faster.

shingo
08-19-2004, 10:44 PM
"Lifted righ out of Lightwave heh? You really believe that?"

Yep, along with subd isolines and phantom points. Of course in the case of "weight maps" they did not even bother to change the terminology. http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

"You see, not everythign in Modod is necessarily better or faster"

Are you beta tester? I know I'm not. We'll find out what, if anything, in Modo is "better or faster" in a few months. Weight maps will hopefully provide more flexibility for weighting edges. More than Maya anyway. Last time I weighted a subd edge in Maya it only offered me three levels of edge sharpness (that was a while ago though, so maybe they fixed that?) Anyway, I like edge weighting with maps because Weight Maps give modelers a more dynamic display of which edges are weighted and with what values.
Oh, so Newtek came up with the name Weightmap and then patented it right? Yeah right. ;-)

Anyway, XSI has a slider to allow ranged of weighting for edges and points. But you're right, no point in speculating until Modo ships. Cudos to the Luxology guys for doing a superb job in making something that looks so polished for a v1.0.

fez
08-19-2004, 10:59 PM
OK, you are probably right Shingo...dammit :)! I just assumed since Soft lifted phantom points and isolines right out of Lightwave, they lifted WeightMaps too. This is not to say Soft did not add their own innovations! You can do a lot more with subds (and weight maps for that matter) in XSI than you can in Lightwave.

shingo
08-19-2004, 11:00 PM
OK, you are probably right Shingo...dammit :)! I just assumed since Soft lifted phantom points and isolines right out of Lightwave, they lifted WeightMaps too. This is not to say Soft did not add their own innovations! You can do a lot more with subds (and weight maps for that matter) in XSI than you can in Lightwave.
Though there's no disputing that LW really did invent sub-d's, or at least were the first to implement them in any useable way.

ambient-whisper
08-19-2004, 11:09 PM
Though there's no disputing that LW really did invent sub-d's, or at least were the first to implement them in any useable way.
that im not sure about that. because they didnt add the limited "subd" stuff till after version 4 i think?!
while the guys that were making mirai/N-world were making a subdivision modeller since the very beginning.

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 11:10 PM
Though there's no disputing that LW really did invent sub-d's, or at least were the first to implement them in any useable way.
or how they called it MetaNURBS and then was changed to "Subpatch"... :p

i am gettin' sick of only modeling with tri's and quads when working with LW when doing subdiv modeling. thats why i try to do most of it in Wings now :D

shingo
08-19-2004, 11:11 PM
or how they called it MetaNURBS and then was changed to "Subpatch"... :p

i am gettin' sick of only modeling with tri's and quads when working with LW when doing subdiv modeling. thats why i try to do most of it in Wings now :D
That doesn't help much though if you end up rendering in LW though does it? The renderer from what I remember doesn;t like tri's or ngons much does it?

shingo
08-19-2004, 11:13 PM
that im not sure about that. because they didnt add the limited "subd" stuff till after version 4 i think?!
while the guys that were making mirai/N-world were making a subdivision modeller since the very beginning.I think Mirai implemented the "properly" from the word go, but I am prettysure they first appeared in LW - v 5 or 5.5. Long time ago. When most of you guys had neverheard of 3D. ;-)

version
08-19-2004, 11:13 PM
That's the problem with Newtek, they seemed to have introduced a number of cool features years ago, but then what? MetaNurbs in LW are stagnant, much like many of the tools in the software.

I get the feeling Newtek still have the coroprate culture from the Amiga days, doesn't help much in today's world.

nuclearfessel
08-19-2004, 11:19 PM
That doesn't help much though if you end up rendering in LW though does it? The renderer from what I remember doesn;t like tri's or ngons much does it?
actually its pretty decently good with Tris if you work with the flow of the polygons.
But yeah, N-gons it don't like and just gives you a nice hole in your SubD mesh :)

ThE_JacO
08-19-2004, 11:20 PM
before tabbing to a subdivided model was in Lightwave some of us were already doing it on SOFTIMAGE|3D with PhoenixTools. metamesh extreme anyone?
when v5.6 was still fresh and 6 MAYBE an alpha there was a nice little tool called sumatra (later on to become XSI) that was already being shown with weightmaps, I won't mention twister since most people never heard about it, let alone betaed it.

btw weightmaps and connecting operators to them comes from Alias.
Artisan was out there with a bunch of patents well before Lightwave saw version 6.

isolines and phantom points are nothing but ideas inspired by nurbs and knots.
you can give it a funky name, but their roots are in a ground dating years before LW even only saw their descendants, let alone the ancestors.

it's funny how people think that it's major or minor companies innovating and inventing.
you know the truth? all the things above were in siggraph papers since at least 5 years before you saw them in any software, companies implement them when they are commercially feasable when factoring the average workstation power out there and the requirments of the user base.

if you were to believe the crap you wrote above then you could very well believe Softimage invented IK, that is a 30 years old concept (interpolating segments according to an algorithm), they have only been the first to implement it.

I don't know since how long you are into this industry (and I don't mean toying with your first program, I mean actually working somewhere with a R&D department and going to siggraph and read and understand the papers), but I still have to see one of the mainstream companies inventing much.

we can argue about who implemented solutions first though, were you working on films 10 years ago?

lwbob
08-19-2004, 11:20 PM
I The "Nexus" suite is all the three programs working together.
Thalaxis (member.php?u=789) was talking aabout the "whisper suite" where everyone was mistaken about that being the name of the program.

People back from siggraph said Nexus was the name of the animation module.

private
08-19-2004, 11:33 PM
It's still speculation. I think the name is the result of confusion, because Lux demoed stuff in a place called the Nexus suite.
Whisper suite actually.

ambient-whisper
08-19-2004, 11:51 PM
I think Mirai implemented the "properly" from the word go, but I am prettysure they first appeared in LW - v 5 or 5.5. Long time ago. When most of you guys had neverheard of 3D. ;-)
5?
well then im pretty sure LW had it a bit late :) but had a wider exposure cuz it costed less ( while nworld/mirai was still something like 25,000 )

markdc
08-19-2004, 11:55 PM
Nothing currently in the plan, but that doesn't mean in won't happen. It's a simple interface, so a 3rd party could easily hook in another scripting language like TCL, python or LUA.

-Eric
Luxology

Will a SDK be available when it's released?

Lyr
08-20-2004, 12:07 AM
Meta-nurbs first appeared in LW 5.0 and as with most things LW it was half assed (still is). You couldn't have any face with over 4 points (this limitation STILL exists) and you had "freeze" your mesh, tesselating it into a very dense polygon mesh to take it to layout for rendering. It took Newtek two versions, spanning several years, to finally get the other half of Lightwave to see the subdivision surfaces. As far as tris and the LW renderer, if I remember right it only worked with tri's. If you had a 4 sided polygon in a mesh there is good chance it would render as a big hole (non planar). Not sure if they fixed this yet or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

Griffon
08-20-2004, 12:19 AM
Will a SDK be available when it's released? The SDK will follow shortly after the initial release.

-Eric
Luxology

retinajoy
08-20-2004, 12:23 AM
... If you had a 4 sided polygon in a mesh there is good chance it would render as a big hole (non planar). Not sure if they fixed this yet or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.
LW works fine with 3 or 4 sided polys. As far as I can remember, subd has always been fine (at least from ver six). The holes only appear if polys are more than 4 sided for subd.

I presume if Luxology ship the modeller, animation and rendering modules together it would put it around $2000 give or take, if the modules pricing is similar to Modo. Which will put it around XSI essentials, LW and C4D price range.

Cman
08-20-2004, 12:50 AM
...

it's funny how people think that it's major or minor companies innovating and inventing.
you know the truth? all the things above were in siggraph papers since at least 5 years before you saw them in any software, companies implement them when they are commercially feasable when factoring the average workstation power out there and the requirments of the user base.
Isn't that the truth.
After going to Siggraph a few years back, I came to realize that it was engineers at the various picture studios and graduate students that were coming up with the innovations - it frustrates me that it takes so long to implement the ideas though...

ThE_JacO
08-20-2004, 01:13 AM
I hear you Cman, but implementation and making things usable and interopratable is always at the very least 50% of the work.

that's why there will ALWAYS be propietary technology in some places, because a technology is fairly easy to put together once it's been researched and uncovered, but unless the same R&D and the TDs who put it on the map take care of using it, it's impossible to provide artistical users with those tools straight away, and more times then not they are hammered into a pipeline with bruteforce, and refined to usability only over a couple of major productions.

I've seen students' particle demos that would make any commercial SW look bland and shabby, but do people really think that Alias, Softimage, SideFX and so on only hire imbecils that can't exploit existing resources?

a lot of majors in physics and maths have final term projects that are nothing short of astounding.
Making them viable to the masses is very different though, and the road of commercial SWs is littered with pioneers that didn't implement correctly.

the high end trickles in the low end/commercial sooner or later, but it takes time and it's innovation no more.

the guys at lux SEEM to have understood it, and it's obvious they are putting their efforts into making things usable, wheter also the technologies are valid and they managed to make them production worthy at the first go (with very little feedback from actual productions) is a different ball game, hopefully yes.
But please don't come and bark at our trees telling it how groundbreaking those things are.

some people were drawing topology, with fully fledged vector painting tools, on scanned clouds and meshes 11 years ago.

fez
08-20-2004, 01:15 AM
"if you were to believe the crap you wrote above"

You talking to me? Why so scrappy? Just take it easyhttp://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif. Lightwave has a lot to do with us being able to buy Foundation for five hundred dollars. Though it has become cliche, I believe Newtek bridged the gap between highend and lowend. Lightwave has always been affordable, dedicated to empowering small studios and artists. XSI and Maya were only recently reduced in price. If you say subds first appeared in Soft and Mirai, fine, but Lightwave gave subds to the masses. Those masses include me (meaning no, I was not working in film ten years ago).

I think isoline subd display and phantom points are in XSI largely due to Will Mendez and other previously diehard Lightwavers. These guys converted to XSI and asked for these Lightwave features, features that were made mainstream if not innovated in Lightwave. Soft listened and they delivered.

ThE_JacO
08-20-2004, 01:24 AM
"bringing it to the masses" is very different from the initial claim of -other apps "lifted" tools from Lightwave-.

beside that Will is a great friend of mine and a person with a lot of merits, but don't think that isolines and "phantom points" were there thank to the LWers.
they were popular requests even at phoenix tools times, and they were usually on the line of "why can't we see the cage like if it was a nurbs surface?"

I think I read the first request of that kind to PT when I was still using LW 4.0 on NT 3.51

I tip my hat to the old school NewTek, when there still was a gap to bridge, but remember that Microsoft was the first to bring film tools to the masses lowering the price of 3D from 40k to 15k and porting to NT, and SGI later on tring (and partially succeeding) to completely turn the market inside out making maya avaliable for 2k.

I have nothing against or in favor of a company in particular except my opinions of their customer support (that is the only personal side of a company), but if you want to explain to the masses who brought what on the map do it correctly and write down the correct names ;)

tjnyc
08-20-2004, 01:26 AM
Though there's no disputing that LW really did invent sub-d's, or at least were the first to implement them in any useable way.
Hit your history books. SubD as we know today was born from Catmull and Clark's Recursively generated B-spline Surfaces on arbitrary Topological Meshes, 1978. The algo that most subdivision surface implementation today follows and I believe the first commercially usefull available implementation was done in Mirai/N-World. But the fact remains subD was invented by Catmull and Clark and not by the developers of LW.


Cheers,

ambient-whisper
08-20-2004, 01:27 AM
I think isoline subd display and phantom points are in XSI largely due to Will Mendez and other previously diehard Lightwavers. These guys converted to XSI and asked for these Lightwave features, features that were made mainstream if not innovated in Lightwave. Soft listened and they delivered.
as nice as those things are, they are often abused, and cause people to create shitty models :/. that could be said about a lot of things though. :(

ThE_JacO
08-20-2004, 01:33 AM
as nice as those things are, they are often abused, and cause people to create shitty models :/. that could be said about a lot of things though. :( it's funny you mention that Martin.
I was one of the people asking for that feature, but only halfheartedly.

only today I was smiling at the fact that now, after several evolutions in my modeling style, following the work of all the people that progressively refined techniques over years and personalizing them where I saw fit, I'm modeling with one view in non-smoothed shading with 0 discontinuity and only checking the subdivided result ocassionaly in an object view.

so many times you just end up going back to the roots to get somewhere...

fez
08-20-2004, 02:03 AM
"bringing it to the masses" is very different from the initial claim of -other apps "lifted" tools from Lightwave-.

Obviously, "inspiration" flows both ways. As the grandaddy, Softimage was the chief source of "inspiration" for all other packages that followed. But to say that the subds in XSI were not "inspired" by Lightwave workflow does not ring true with me. But then again, I certainly never had access to phoenix tools back in the day like you did :).

Anyway, I wrongly assumed Soft lifted the weightmap workflow of lightwave. I assumed they noticed the quality of work studios and artists using lowend Lightwave were churning out and, after investigating, decided subds and weight maps were the way to go. I assumed Soft developers looked at Lightwave portfolios and thought, "if the masses are capable of producing quality work, then these tools in Lightwave must be pretty sweet. Let's put em in there!"

"but don't think that isolines and "phantom points" were there thank to the LWers."

So it is just a coincidence that Soft didn't put those features in the package before? Why not? If people were so passionately requesting these features so long ago, why are we only seeing them in Soft now?

ThE_JacO
08-20-2004, 02:19 AM
every app influenced every other app.
I could agree with that since the very beginning, and I do agree that LW was a kickass and forward thinking modeler until some time ago.

but thinking that one app particularly inspired others that massively is a bit naive, and that's true for LW as much as it is for SI and Alias.

if that was how SW companies worked we'd ALL have paintFX and artisan, we'd all have graph based subatomic operators networks BUT with the speed of DAG and so on, we'd ALL have a renderregion displaying exactly your final render BUT sthocastically refined like Fprime...

priority lists for versions of XSI prior to v3 were on making a new baby stable, but all apps and all features tend to fish from a common pool whose trends are pushed partially by the industry and partially by whoever directs the R&Ds.

finding a single culprit/promoter is really hard there and in many other cases.

now I'm off this because it's becoming a tad redundant.
all the best.

Levitateme
08-20-2004, 02:34 AM
i missed parts of this thread, but i saw something about fprime i researched that a little today is that going to be available with MODO? maybe im jumping ahead, but i missed Fprime involvment with modo, or is it still just for lightwave? amazing renderer btw. i couldnt belive the videos of that.

fez
08-20-2004, 02:50 AM
"now I'm off this because it's becoming a tad redundant.
all the best."

Agreed Jaco. Thank you for the insight. I have been using Lightwave so long, sometimes it is hard for me to get away from my Lightwavecentric mindset. Good night.

Thalaxis
08-20-2004, 06:48 AM
Whisper suite actually.
Oops. :eek:

Well, it's still nice to hear that there is something to back up the hype ;)

Para
08-20-2004, 09:50 AM
i missed parts of this thread, but i saw something about fprime i researched that a little today is that going to be available with MODO? maybe im jumping ahead, but i missed Fprime involvment with modo, or is it still just for lightwave? amazing renderer btw. i couldnt belive the videos of that.

Haven't seen any indication of that although I believe that it wouldn't take much time from Steve to write a bridge between FPrime renderer and Modo as long as the API is so simple that you can "ask" values from the program's different functions like lights etc.

BTW, Steve Worley is at the moment working on LW's flawed SDK to make it less flawed and thus giving himself more possibilities to implement features in to FPrime (particles, volumetrics, caustics just to name a few) and of course making LW an easier platform to develop stuff on to.

ChristianFischer
08-20-2004, 11:39 AM
a few questions ...

- will the history of the model be saved in the file or will it get lost after closing modo
- will there be an export for xsi in the near future
- can i model without a centerline just like in lw

regards chris

ambient-whisper
08-20-2004, 01:29 PM
a few questions ...

- will there be an export for xsi in the near future

regards chris
use OBJ.

every app supports it. one way or another. sometimes through plugins.

ChristianFischer
08-20-2004, 01:41 PM
yes ... xsi supports .obj but it would be nice to have the morph targets stored in one file so that you don't have to export/import them seperately :)
just like the maya export with the embeded morphs

yog
08-20-2004, 01:55 PM
yes ... xsi supports .obj but it would be nice to have the morph targets stored in one file so that you don't have to export/import them seperately :)
just like the maya export with the embeded morphsOn the Kaydara web site Luxology are listed as one of the companies supporting the FBX format. So "hopefully" the Modo version of FBX will support embedded morphs/shapes.

ChristianFischer
08-20-2004, 02:10 PM
that would be nice :)

now i'm just waiting for the release ... damn ... i'm so impatient :D

shingo
08-20-2004, 02:55 PM
Hit your history books. SubD as we know today was born from Catmull and Clark's Recursively generated B-spline Surfaces on arbitrary Topological Meshes, 1978. The algo that most subdivision surface implementation today follows and I believe the first commercially usefull available implementation was done in Mirai/N-World. But the fact remains subD was invented by Catmull and Clark and not by the developers of LW.


Cheers,
OK, so I was wrong to say Lightwave invented sub-d's but I remain convinced that they were in Lightwave before they were in Mirai. Mirai was not that old (it got to version 2 or somrthing before it went on hold). Lightwave was implemented smooting/subdivision algorithms in v 4 or sooner.

fasteez
08-20-2004, 02:56 PM
subd with the modo tools looks like nurbs with automatic continuity :) pretty cool

Wegg
08-20-2004, 03:09 PM
OK, so I was wrong to say Lightwave invented sub-d's but I remain convinced that they were in Lightwave before they were in Mirai. Mirai was not that old (it got to version 2 or somrthing before it went on hold). Lightwave was implemented smooting/subdivision algorithms in v 4 or sooner.
Before there was Marai us "cool cats" were using something called NTools. NTools was kind of like. . . Alias was before Maya came out. It was the "older" foundation that Marai was built upon. For realtime game development. . . nothing came close. It's Game exchange, vertex lighting etc. ruled the (old) school. I believe the "Sub-D" features mentioned were included in NTools. They weren't called that at the time but they were much the same.

shingo
08-20-2004, 03:12 PM
Before there was Marai us "cool cats" were using something called NTools. NTools was kind of like. . . Alias was before Maya came out. It was the "older" foundation that Marai was built upon. For realtime game development. . . nothing came close. It's Game exchange, vertex lighting etc. ruled the (old) school. I believe the "Sub-D" features mentioned were included in NTools. They weren't called that at the time but they were much the same.
I'm sure you;re right but LW too went back many years too. It only came to the PC as version 4. Still doesn't confirm whether or not LW or NTools was the first to implement them.

Chaz
08-20-2004, 03:41 PM
Well, it's offical; pricing is up on the Modo site now and it's what we were told before: $895 or $695 for early adopters. No word on a discount for Lightwave users yet, so keep your fingers crossed.

Ariel
08-20-2004, 04:39 PM
use OBJ.

every app supports it. one way or another. sometimes through plugins.

I think it is very important to get support for either .scn or dotXsi (more likely). OBJ support in xsi hasn't been particularly solid, especially when exporting from xsi.

SOPLAND
08-20-2004, 06:38 PM
I think it is very important to get support for either .scn or dotXsi (more likely). OBJ support in xsi hasn't been particularly solid, especially when exporting from xsi.
OBJ's are just text files. If you are having trouble with XSI's current exporter just script your own. It's pretty simple to spit out a formatted text file that will work flawlessly with whatever package you are going to.

rgwarren
08-20-2004, 07:44 PM
Well, it's offical; pricing is up on the Modo site now and it's what we were told before: $895 or $695 for early adopters. After I posted this I checked the link again. The first time the pricing page was still blank (stupid web cache) however the prices are indeed listed. http://www.luxology.com/modo/pricing.aspx

yog
08-20-2004, 07:47 PM
I didn't see anything on the pricing page at http://www.luxology.com/modo/pricing.aspx

Is there another source I'm missing?
Try refreshing your browser, it's there :)

chadtheartist
08-20-2004, 07:47 PM
Pricing & Availability



modo retails for $895 with an introductory price of $695. We will begin taking pre-orders through this site before the end of August. In the mean time if you would like to be the first on your block to order modo, you can send a pre-order request to sales.

It's on the page. Maybe you need to hit the refresh key or something? :shrug:

rgwarren
08-20-2004, 07:47 PM
You're too fast. You posted faster than I could edit my own post.

Gwot
08-20-2004, 07:47 PM
Try dragging a selection over the emty space under the modo image. First time I hit that page I didn't see anything either, but selecting revealed all the text. Subsequent page hits show the text just fine for me.

Anyone pre-ordering?

Thalaxis
08-20-2004, 07:52 PM
Anyone pre-ordering?
I'm waiting for a demo before deciding :)

SheepFactory
08-20-2004, 07:59 PM
Yea , buying something without testing it first is not a great idea.

Thalaxis
08-20-2004, 08:11 PM
Yea , buying something without testing it first is not a great idea.
Especially for something so subjective as "which is the best modeller?" :)

mbaldwin
08-20-2004, 08:17 PM
Yea , buying something without testing it first is not a great idea.


Then again, generally, these special introdutory prices often expire before any demo is offered. I wonder if it will be the same story with modo.

I'm going to wait to hear on ordering specifics--like whether there's further discounts to Lightwave users, how the License agreement works(dongel? install on 2 machines as long as there not used simultaneously?), etc.

SheepFactory
08-20-2004, 08:39 PM
Then again, generally, these special introdutory prices often expire before any demo is offered. I wonder if it will be the same story with modo.

.

If it does its their loss. Unless they have a 30 day money back guarantee I wont be buying a software I havent tested. What if you buy and find out you dont like it?

rgwarren
08-20-2004, 08:48 PM
I agree. I've bought too many apps/plug-ins that I don't use and wouldn't have bought had I actually demo'ed them first. That's become my rule.

NO DEMO -- NO PURCHASE

Xtrude
08-20-2004, 09:15 PM
Just watched the vid on creating a soccerball... looks very cool... thing I also noticed is the lack of widgits... hehe, here comes that discussion again lol... but seriously, this app looks cool non the less, though I do wonder just how quick the workflow will be moving from verts to edges to faces to body... as in Smarthighlighting? I didn't notice anything on that aspect, though I probably missed it eh...

I agree in that there should be a demo put out right from the git go... heck this would serve them more than not serving as a sort of beta for much feedback...

aha well, will be very interesting to watch how this app is accepted by those who are fortunate enough to have the extra funding available, and daring enough to put such forth inorder to play with such a new and fairly expensive modeling solution...

minus23
08-20-2004, 10:03 PM
I don't know about installing on two machines... (someone above mentioned that) .. the order / purchase page says internet connection is required for registration. The web server may authorize one Mac and one PC code per user.... not sure of course. Not sure they would allow registration of two PC's... at least not without a call to their support anyway.

CB_3D
08-20-2004, 11:04 PM
I have one old LW 5.6 dongle (for Alpha,LOL) still around here, somehwere, and one LW8. 8 ill keep, no doubt, but what about the old 5.6? Will that count for the promised discounts?

mushroomgod
08-20-2004, 11:06 PM
another minor update on luxologys site

version
08-20-2004, 11:18 PM
I agree. I've bought too many apps/plug-ins that I don't use and wouldn't have bought had I actually demo'ed them first. That's become my rule.

NO DEMO -- NO PURCHASE


In this day and age they definitely need a demo. I just hope they haven't inherited the corporate culture of Newtek.

RobertoOrtiz
08-21-2004, 12:34 AM
In this day and age they definitely need a demo. I just hope they haven't inherited the corporate culture of Newtek.Lets keep this thread on topic.
-R

CB_3D
08-21-2004, 12:40 AM
In this day and age they definitely need a demo. I just hope they haven't inherited the corporate culture of Newtek.
To be fair, NT has bettered itself enormously in that department. As to the Lux site, oh man, can they hype any more than this? LOL

Nice site, by the way. Simple and efgfective. I always liked the white/grey/yellow sheme when it comes to graphic design! But wouldnt it be wiser to make one big video section instead of having to search through the whole site? Whos interested will read it all anyway.

CB_3D
08-21-2004, 12:41 AM
me want demo,lol

markdc
08-21-2004, 12:49 AM
Anyone pre-ordering?

No, I always try a demo before I purchase any software (even upgrades).

Nemoid
08-21-2004, 12:54 AM
Can't wait for a demo!!!

After the things i read on this thread about the other modules in development , Modo could be really worth the price. But first I have to try it :scream:

Para
08-21-2004, 08:12 AM
Nice site, by the way. Simple and efgfective. I always liked the white/grey/yellow sheme when it comes to graphic design!

I agree on this. Simple is always good, bells and whistles are for marketing people :)

gustojunk
08-21-2004, 01:45 PM
message to Lux people:

When you have a demo available so we can see why we should model in Modo, please post here to let us know. In the meantime I'll stick to my current toolset that I have chosen after trying it out.

I think from a marketiing stand point it makes sense for them to give a 'preasure sales' tactic for all those impulse buyers. But the rest of us that want to run a business responsibly will have to wait.

Beamtracer
08-22-2004, 08:45 AM
Module 1: Modo modeler

Module 2: New renderer

Module 3: Luxology Animate ...or... Messiah for Nexus?


Just speculating, because Project Messiah Group was listed as one of Lux's partners. I don't think PMG would be a partner if Lux was developing a competing animation module.

colkai
08-22-2004, 09:22 AM
Heh,
That's what was said about Lux & Newtek originally I think ;)

Zithen
08-22-2004, 10:15 AM
Module 1: Modo modeler

Module 2: New renderer

Module 3: Luxology Animate ...or... Messiah for Nexus?


Just speculating, because Project Messiah Group was listed as one of Lux's partners. I don't think PMG would be a partner if Lux was developing a competing animation module.Nope...Nexus is animation/render for sure. No messiah in Nexus.

Nemoid
08-22-2004, 06:58 PM
Cool news. really can't wait to know more about the nexus module.Isupposed the modules were 3, but 2 can be good as well cause it reminds Lightwave to me.Lw are actually 2 programs communicating through the hub, though, while Modo/Nexus seems to have a tigher integration between 2 modules from what I read

A thing that came to my mind is that some company like PMG or Worley were listed as partners, but here we should cosider what a partner is intended to be. maybe the 2 modules will support their formats, for example you could model in modo, then export your mesh in Messiah with no prob and vice versa (after all, Messiah has no modelling tools) or integrate some Worley shader or some future product in your Modo pipeline as well.
Something like Sasquatch would be fine for Modo/Nexus as well.

I dunno about Fprime, because it seems to me very related to Lw so far, and I also read that the Nexus rendering engine is very fast and has some Fprime caracteristics

Another thing i am really curious is about a possible good workflow Modo/Nexus/ZBrush for the near future. Terribly powerful!!!!! :drool:

nuclearfessel
08-22-2004, 07:39 PM
Nope...Nexus is animation/render for sure. No messiah in Nexus.
speculation on my point but with lux's open ended API and their partnership with PMG, i am thinking messiah would eventually have a connection to Nexus

CB_3D
08-22-2004, 09:40 PM
speculation on my point but with lux's open ended API and their partnership with PMG, i am thinking messiah would eventually have a connection to Nexus
PMG has their own renderer, dont they? Id really prefer to see a full solution (evben with modules) than having to piece together a fully functional solution without compatibility problems and bridge plugs all over the place. Anyway, i am convinced well know more very soon.

nuclearfessel
08-22-2004, 09:47 PM
PMG has their own renderer, dont they? Id really prefer to see a full solution (evben with modules) than having to piece together a fully functional solution without compatibility problems and bridge plugs all over the place. Anyway, i am convinced well know more very soon.
yep, PMG have their own renderer.
basically a partnership between Lux and PMG would complete the PMG toolset by bringing a modeler to the fold :)

Griffon
08-23-2004, 01:57 AM
PMG has their own renderer, dont they? Id really prefer to see a full solution (evben with modules) than having to piece together a fully functional solution without compatibility problems and bridge plugs all over the place. Anyway, i am convinced well know more very soon. Just to clarify, different modules does not mean different programs or a collection of items communicating through some other interface. ie. Maya cloth and fur are fully integrated solutions AND modules.

-Eric
Luxology.

CB_3D
08-23-2004, 02:45 AM
Just to clarify, different modules does not mean different programs or a collection of items communicating through some other interface. ie. Maya cloth and fur are fully integrated solutions AND modules.

-Eric
Luxology.Cool, Eric. But i was referring to combining Modo with Messiah or LW (whatever), which i would regard as a bad solution for myself!

As long as its all from one developer (modeling, animation, dynamics and rendering) under one consolidated interface (as it, by Your companies hints, seems to be the case), i am all for it.

Anyway, nice to get these hints from You guys! Thx!

CB_3D
08-23-2004, 02:46 AM
BTW, interesting You mention cloth and fur.... hmmmmmm

Just kidding!!

Nemoid
08-23-2004, 12:53 PM
Cool, Eric. But i was referring to combining Modo with Messiah or LW (whatever), which i would regard as a bad solution for myself!

As long as its all from one developer (modeling, animation, dynamics and rendering) under one consolidated interface (as it, by Your companies hints, seems to be the case), i am all for it.

Anyway, nice to get these hints from You guys! Thx!
In the case Modo/messiah i can suppose you will have to work in some separate way just like u do with Lw /Messiah . A smoother workflow depends from what formats modo supports forr importing/exporting files with the programs wich aren't directly part of the suite. But this being said from the little we know,since Lux said Modo and their products will interact well with other apps , i am confident there will be no real probs in a case of mixed pipeline.
this happens in many studios right now and modo could make things easier.

Too cool that the modules in Modo/Nexus will work really smoothly as it happens in Maya becoming really part of the app when using them. this is the way to go!!!

CB_3D
08-23-2004, 02:26 PM
Never liked the back&forth route that combining different programs forces you to go. Thats why Messiah never attracted me in the first place, allthough it obviously is a very powerfull solution for what it does. For example if Messiah had its OWN integrated Modeler i would certainly have checked it out more deeply. Truth is, LW Modeler and FPrime are "almost" perfect for me....So lets wait and see what LUX has to offer on the animation side and maybe the whole picture will change. If it all is as good as Modo promises to be (DEMO!!!) the decision will be an easy one.

Mouser
08-23-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by Griffon
Just to clarify, different modules does not mean different programs or a collection of items communicating through some other interface. ie. Maya cloth and fur are fully integrated solutions AND modules.

-Eric
Luxology.


wonder if it could go the other way around.. and have Modo be a plugin inside Maya... since it can save .MA files directly... who knows

mbaldwin
08-23-2004, 03:07 PM
Bodypaint 2 is a good example of an app that strives for seamless integration with other company's products. Maxon went all out and constructed plug-ins to other people's applications--they even created a hot button that zapped you back to your modeling app with all your new data changes intact.

It's this level of product finish that modo's going to need in order to win over the hearts those in the production trenches. To continue the comparison, it was a level of integration Maxon wasn't able to commit to until version 2.0. I'm curious to see how many ambitious objectives Modo will actually achieve with a v1.0 release. The magnitude of their task(s) is also why I wouldn't be surprised to see a demo lag behind the actual release of modo by several months. It might also be their strategy to publish any demo AFTER a maintenance upgrade(1.01), cause what first release of any application hasn't felt more like a public beta?

-m.

Nemoid
08-23-2004, 03:34 PM
Never liked the back&forth route that combining different programs forces you to go. Thats why Messiah never attracted me in the first place, allthough it obviously is a very powerfull solution for what it does. For example if Messiah had its OWN integrated Modeler i would certainly have checked it out more deeply. Truth is, LW Modeler and FPrime are "almost" perfect for me....So lets wait and see what LUX has to offer on the animation side and maybe the whole picture will change. If it all is as good as Modo promises to be (DEMO!!!) the decision will be an easy one.
Yap i partially agree about this.using only one app is easier in most cases.

Anyhoo, in many studios pipelines are really mixed.
Take for example Computer Cafe there u can found some really great artist especially expert into one package, for example Taron with Lw for modelling, and Messiah for animation and rendering.
Other artists are expert of Maya, and so on .

Then they integrate all their production in the final work, lets say modelling in lw, animating in Messiah , or Maya or other and rendering on Lw, Messiah or Mray. a very flexible artist realated pipeline. every artist can also learn from others and become proficient in other packages in less time he could do alone indeed.
Well maybe in a scenario like this , if its structure is so flexible and opened modo could be of help as well to better integrate different parts.and allow artists to start from a common base.

On the other side, a full package composed from different modules as said is a great way to go, because :

1) Lux could sell the 2 modules separately for mixed pipeline users.
2) one module could be not loaded if u don't need it for a job, allowing the app being more light on your machine if necessary :drool:
3) the full suite will behave as a full one app structure package if u want to with no prob at all. allowing the maximum of flexibility and power when needed.extra:drool:

about the demo : true that a 1.0 release could not have a demo, but i think here is required because of innovation the app could bring and its price. a way to try it has to be found for sure!! :D

policarpo
08-23-2004, 04:22 PM
Displacement maps and detailing low res models is the future baby.

Get Silo and zBrush now and any Renderman compliant rendering engine and you are as good as gold...or get XSI Foundation or C4D 9 base package & ZB2 so you can model, animate and render...

See what you can do with 146 polygons: http://pixologic.com/zbrush/interviews/baysal_interview.html

Why drop $800 for a modeling only tool when $800 can get you so much more of a powerful workflow?

I wish Lux luck, cause they do have a nice looking package, but I think they are pricing themselves out of the market in all honesty. DeLorean anyone?

Cheers.

rock
08-23-2004, 04:50 PM
Poli,

Sorry for the question in the thread since I don't know Zbrush 2 well - it seems what you are saying is that with ZBrush 2, you don't need to have BodyPaint 3D. Is this so?

Thanks.

rgwarren
08-23-2004, 05:00 PM
ZBrush 2 creates the poly model and a great displacement map at the same time. It's a fantastic modeler in that it creates a low-poly cage and a superb displacement map.

However, I still use Bodypaint 2 for further texturing, painting, speculars......

I don't think ZBrush replaces Bodypaint. It's a different type of animal.

ThomasMahler
08-23-2004, 05:37 PM
Yeah, but you can still paint your textures pretty well... Guys, just download the ZBrush Practical Manual from Pixologics Site to get more information about ZBrush 2.

lwbob
08-23-2004, 07:40 PM
PMG has their own renderer, dont they?
Yeah, they do if you purchase messiah:studio. If you just get messiah:animate you only have an animation package and still need a renderer.

lwbob
08-23-2004, 07:46 PM
I wish Lux luck, cause they do have a nice looking package
We can tell with your glowing endorsement. :)

policarpo
08-23-2004, 07:53 PM
Yeah, we can tell with your glowing endorsement. :)

Umm...that's sarcasm right?

Always the benefactor of reason...how do you do it?

Lux has a nice package, but it is too expensive for what it does. Sorry if you don't think so, but it really is considering how the landscape of 3D has changed in the past 3 weeks.

In the end, we, the artists, will win...so I wish them well, and hope they see where the market is going and can react accordingly, because if they don't, it will be a fringe tool bought by early adopters who don't mind blowing cash on a new tool that may or may not deliver in the end.

The idea of modo is solid, I'm just not sure about the pricing being solid.

I guess we could look at it from the perspective of the animation and rendering package coming out for the same price...but we'll have to wait to see what the future produces...

In the mean time, we have the right tools for the job in our hands now.

Let's hope for a demo while the Special Price is still available...:thumbsup:

Cheers.

Xtrude
08-23-2004, 08:09 PM
beyond all the hype surrounding most any app, comes common sense... if you can't afford some solutions then improvise... there are many economical routes to take... and if you can afford all the solutions you wish for, then lead the way and show your discoveries, as this will bring about changes with any and all, be it artist's or the good folks creating the toolsets for such...

policarpo
08-23-2004, 08:11 PM
Well said Xtrude.

Use what you can afford and use it well. :wip:

mav3rick
08-23-2004, 10:30 PM
actually modo is next gen. code and is nothin like seen on market.. it has a lot potential in meaning of UPGRADES from 3rd party developers. you can write own tools eaven own OGL window, and developers mentioned they done PLATFORM independent code that means it is easy to compile it both OSX and X86 (64 bit platforms already supported). So i would not say 800$ is somethin BIG... if app is SMART designed , with GREAT workflow and all tools i need for SUBD modeling that actually works i would pay for it same secound..
Also we can already see it play out pretty nice with maya, lw and others probable will be supported by release date.
Personally i come from LW side and lw itself works for me so far pretty well, but some things i had experienced with modeler latly made me i want to checkout modo not only to see what it can do but actually to replace LW modeler. At the end i think all of you should choose your direction and see what work out best for you.. i choosed mine and i will pay off modo on next project i will work on , actually i will make LW pay me off modo before it arrives and than i will be about to retire my modeler or just keep it for skelegons:)


p.s. i already preordered it :)

policarpo
08-23-2004, 10:36 PM
Very cool.

Let us know how it is when you get it.

I am sure modeling will feel a lot like LW with a bunch of nicer tools.

I bought Motion @ Siggraph instead since it was shipping...and I will probably buy Silo 3D since they just released the Mac version today (well as soon as the site comes back up).:applause:

Cheers.

FunBucket
08-23-2004, 10:41 PM
This is a little off topic, but how are you liking Motion, Policarpo? Is it strictly for motion graphics, or can it handle some compositing, too, like AE?

policarpo
08-23-2004, 10:48 PM
I bought it thinking my Dual G5 2.5 would be in, but it's still on back order from CDW, so there it sits, tempting and taunting me...making me wish I had a newer PowerBook so I could at least begin to play with it.

It's funny, I kept asking the Apple guys why i would need to use AE now that Motion was out, but I never got a firm answer from them (they avoided answering it like it was a hot potato).

As soon as I get up and running I'll be posting samples of stuff I do (I really want to see how it compares to AE for day to day work and compositing). It should be a blast.

Feel free to email me later as a reminder to give you info once I get my machine...

Cause people here want to talk about modo, the future and how it will all change our world view in regards to modeling (my vote is on ZB2 and displacement maps personally...at least that's what I discerned in my wee little noggin from my conversations with Bay Raitt and Taron @ Siggraph).

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

Can't wait for a demo of modo to give it a whirl, cause experience defines everything ya know.

:deal:

CB_3D
08-24-2004, 02:26 AM
Whats motion all about? Could you provide a link? Right now i have Digital Fusion (the L8 offering) and am looking into some more for sequence painting and fx. Mirage looks to be a nice all in one package ill have to try out, especially since i loved TVpaint Aura in its time.

FunBucket
08-24-2004, 02:39 AM
Motion is a motion graphics program Apple developed. www.apple.com/motion/ (http://www.apple.com/motion/)

Anywho! I really wish we could find out more about the "Layout" program Luxology is cooking. If the renderer comes with as many free render nodes as Lightwave does... woo dawgy!

No one's mentioned if there's going to be a simulation type program though. That could be a deal breaker for me :)

nuclearfessel
08-24-2004, 03:14 AM
Anywho! I really wish we could find out more about the "Layout" program Luxology is cooking. If the renderer comes with as many free render nodes as Lightwave does... woo dawgy!

believe me, after seeing it, all i can say is what they are cookin' is pretty damn tasty, comin' from a LW standpoint. keep your ears and eyes peeled :)

No one's mentioned if there's going to be a simulation type program though. That could be a deal breaker for me :)

Nothing was mentioned to this fact. hopefully there will be *crosses fingers*

private
08-24-2004, 07:01 AM
When is Leonard's article coming out anyways? Did everyone on this board that saw the extra stuff and other details promise they wouldn't spill the beans? I would like to hear more information AND read the article.

policarpo
08-24-2004, 12:47 PM
I missed the presentation of Lux's secret weapon because I was at the BOXX party at the Westin BonaVenture, but from what I hear, the rendering engine can kick out however many polygons you throw at it without much problem and in little to no time.

I have no idea if it's a totally new paradigm of rendering engine, or if it's based on Entropy or Gelato, but I am sure it's going to turn a few heads.

I just want us to have a demo in our hands so we can all stop being so opinionated about things and see the truth for ourselves.

It's a fine time to be a 3D artist I tell ya.

We need to turn up the heat around here. :thumbsup:

Nemoid
08-24-2004, 12:59 PM
Cause people here want to talk about modo, the future and how it will all change our world view in regards to modeling (my vote is on ZB2 and displacement maps personally...at least that's what I discerned in my wee little noggin from my conversations with Bay Raitt and Taron @ Siggraph).

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

Can't wait for a demo of modo to give it a whirl, cause experience defines everything ya know.

:deal:
I bought ZBrush and it's a wonderful app i am currently studying it in my spare time and its really intuitive for modelling. seems real clay modelling!
So far i think it needs some tool to correct polyflow in low poly meshes produced with z spheres. all the rest of the app is really great and i seriously hope it develops further in an animation system too, because this is possible.

Modo could be great as well. i am always curious in new technologies especially if they bring a faster workflow and flexibility. I have to say i'm a bit more interested into an animation module rather than a modelling one even because i feel at home in my Lw for now.

Bay raitt and Taron are great modelers and very rapid with Mirai and Lw they are also great Zbrush users and i am wondering what they could think about Modo too, despite having no problems in modelling for sure with their chosen tools.:)
It's always the artist what makes the difference

Para
08-24-2004, 01:54 PM
We need to turn up the heat around here. :thumbsup:

Hehe, no thanks since I'm already swimming in my own sweat in here ;)

Labuzz
08-24-2004, 03:13 PM
Any information about a special price for lightwave owners?
I have send a mail to Lux but didnt get any answer yet.
Plz let us know !

policarpo
08-24-2004, 05:57 PM
Any information about a special price for lightwave owners?
I have send a mail to Lux but didnt get any answer yet.
Plz let us know !

I think it's the $695 price tag.

Thalaxis
08-24-2004, 06:06 PM
I think it's the $695 price tag.
Hm. That's a bit underwhelming, all things considered... especially since they talked about a special price for LW8 users.

policarpo
08-24-2004, 06:10 PM
Who really knows. I guess we'll know more as the release date gets closer if there is any deal for LW users specifically.

nuclearfessel
08-24-2004, 06:14 PM
Hm. That's a bit underwhelming, all things considered... especially since they talked about a special price for LW8 users.
i am holding any pricing presumptions on anything right now till release.

hopefully if alls good, we will see a LW user pricing special

*crosses fingers and other bodily parts*

:)

Thalaxis
08-24-2004, 06:22 PM
hopefully if alls good, we will see a LW user pricing special

Let's hope :)

lwbob
08-24-2004, 06:32 PM
When is Leonard's article coming out anyways? Did everyone on this board that saw the extra stuff and other details promise they wouldn't spill the beans? I would like to hear more information AND read the article.
I was JUST thinking that it was feeling like all the video coverage cgchannel promissed years ago.

nuclearfessel
08-24-2004, 06:42 PM
I was JUST thinking that it was feeling like all the video coverage cgchannel promissed years ago.
you took the words right out off my mouth :)

lwbob
08-24-2004, 08:58 PM
Well, last year anyway. :)

minus23
08-24-2004, 08:59 PM
I'm thinking that if it isn't written up by now... it probably won't be untill Modo release early next month. I'm sure the marketing for Modo will work on the majority of people... but as someone who checks Cgnews everyday... I'm getting burnt out on Modo news / rumours / secret meetings. I guess the same thing happens to me with regular news if I check it out to much aswell.

nuclearfessel
08-24-2004, 09:05 PM
I'm thinking that if it isn't written up by now... it probably won't be untill Modo release early next month. I'm sure the marketing for Modo will work on the majority of people... but as someone who checks Cgnews everyday... I'm getting burnt out on Modo news / rumours / secret meetings. I guess the same thing happens to me with regular news if I check it out to much aswell.
i very much agree...

just because i have seen what modo and sorta of what nexus can do, i continue use LW and messiah:animate coz i own them and wings3d as its free.

all i can say right now is this year has bought a lot of 3d power in to the hands of the user, be it XSI, C4D, or LW8 or Motion or Silo, and some at very reasonable prices like Silo, XSI and Wings

so now nobody has any excuse to not practise and create anything good :)

lwbob
08-24-2004, 09:30 PM
I'm thinking that if it isn't written up by now... it probably won't be untill Modo release early next month. I'm sure the marketing for Modo will work on the majority of people... but as someone who checks Cgnews everyday... I'm getting burnt out on Modo news / rumours / secret meetings. I guess the same thing happens to me with regular news if I check it out to much aswell.
I think that is why people wanted to see the writeup Even a few people in this thread have said they saw stuff but are waiting for the writeup because they don't want to steal Leo's thunder. Given the cloudless sky, I'm thinking it might be safe to post what you saw.

ThomasMahler
08-24-2004, 09:37 PM
Well, Modo will be here in about 10-15 days, right? Am I the only one who thinks that Luxology should be a little more communicative? I mean, I've seen a few features of Modo (and most of them were core feature, that are in other modelers since... I don't know), but I didn't have this "Holy cow! I've to buy this program even if I have to sell my house afterwards...!!" feeling (the last time I felt like that was as Pixologic unveiled ZBrush 2.0) - For example, is there really a Topology Brush feature in Modo? If so, why not showing it? What makes Modo so special, revolutionary? Why should I throw out 900bucks for "yet another SDS Modeler"?

I'm really wondering... It's been common fashion lately that, with a new modeler, videos of artists were released, working with that program, showing off neat stuff you can do, showing how fast it is to model characters or whatever... But I don't hear anything from Luxologys side - Hasn't Modo been beta-tested? Where are the results? I mean, come on, I've seen some cool things from beta testers working with clay3d and clay is still super-secret and won't be here anytime soon, I guess.

Luxology should really overthink their marketing - if there are a lot of features they didn't show us yet (the Topology Brush would be a _MAJOR_ thing!), then I think they're _really_ late to the party... Come on, guys, you want to sell software!

Goon
08-24-2004, 09:56 PM
This thread has over 400 posts in it. There is another MODO thread with at least that much. Luxology's marketing strategy may not be enough to convince everyone, and it certainly leaves the cautious out to dry, but there are hundreds of fanboys just drooling, waiting for the release. So even if they don't know the full extent of the software, quite a few wallets are going to be coming out when it is released.

And as they haven't needed to be very forthcoming yet, they probably won't be until the actual announcement.

fez
08-25-2004, 12:39 AM
Exciting stuff. Funny that being able to model inside a scene is a luxury to Lightwavers. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me. Let's hope Lux shows us Lightwavers some love.

I wonder if Lux Layout will load Lightwave scenes?

leuey
08-25-2004, 02:05 AM
Don't know if you've all seen this yet - so here's the link

http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=27610

key phrase from the article

"Hastings demonstrated the capabilities of the Nexus environment, using it to interactively render 736 million polygons in a scene where the camera moved forward through a seemingly infinite field of multicolored 3D animated hippos while he changed colors on the fly."

hmmmm, 736 million polygons......uh - that's a lot. If this system can handle that many polys at a low level I would expect or anticipate some Z-Brush'ish capabilities before too long.

-Greg

jedi71
08-25-2004, 02:10 AM
Any information about a special price for lightwave owners?
I have send a mail to Lux but didnt get any answer yet.
Plz let us know !Yeah, I haven't got a reply from them either and
I sent 3 diff mails. :(
Here's hoping.

chadtheartist
08-25-2004, 02:18 AM
hmmmm, 736 million polygons......uh - that's a lot. If this system can handle that many polys at a low level I would expect or anticipate some Z-Brush'ish capabilities before too long.

-Greg
The article said Nexus is an operating system. Not just a program. How the heck did that happen? LOL

Then with a flourish, they opened the door and revealed the super secret technology: a poweful 3D operating system code-named Nexus.
I don't believe the article. No way.

Nexus OS. Weird. Modo... module... of an OS?

CB_3D
08-25-2004, 03:05 AM
What does that actually mean? That you boot into Nexus? Or does it run on top of Windows?!
And the polygon numbers must have been a mistake. Thousands, maybe. Millions? No way.

More confused with every new tidbit...

jlinhart
08-25-2004, 03:15 AM
And the polygon numbers must have been a mistake. Thousands, maybe. Millions? No way.
The number is correct.

.jason

Renderman_XSI
08-25-2004, 03:36 AM
The number is correct.

.jason thats insane..700 plus million polygons? XSI + my quadroFX 1000 can only handle 2 million polygons in a scene ...You guys must be from Mars.

nuclearfessel
08-25-2004, 03:37 AM
The number is correct.

.jason

i can confirm that coz at our User Group Brad rendered close to that same amount...

Per-Anders
08-25-2004, 03:37 AM
in reference to the discussion about it being an os. people may be surprised to find out that most modern 3d apps rest on a core that is in fact an OS. Cinema 4D core is an OS, Maya core is an OS, HDN core is an OS. this is what makes these applications so flexible and extensible.

as for the polygon limit. it truly does sound impressive stuff (if it really does move in realtime with that many polys on screen at once). however is this a case of the scene contains that many poly's and quite a large number are culled from view and system at any time (i.e. loaded in when needed). even so to do that smoothly with so many is still an impressive feat.

leuey
08-25-2004, 03:39 AM
No it's not an OS you boot into (obviously), it's a platform for, well I'll just say content developement. I'm sure you could run a 3D paint program, compositor, render manager - whatever within the bounds of Nexus (a bunch of OO tools, or something of that nature I'm guessing).

And I would think it's Millions, not Thousands. I'm sure the Hippos were instanced (or loaded in dynamically when within the camera view, if not color me impressed - seems like you would run out of RAM). There's been some brazil and vray renders with up to a billion polys (I think) - so it's not unprecented. It's the 'FPrim-ish' feature that was most interesting. Like somebody mentioned on another thread (or maybe this one) - I think there will be quite a bit of tech. that was R&D'd in Academia over the last few years that will be brought to light in the coming months. Not saying that's what the Lux stuff is, but get used to the 'hundreds of millions of polys' and 'interactive GI' - Alias demonstrated some pretty amazing real-time dynamics at Siggraph - and stuff like that.

The chains are slowly but surely coming off....

-Greg



What does that actually mean? That you boot into Nexus? Or does it run on top of Windows?!
And the polygon numbers must have been a mistake. Thousands, maybe. Millions? No way.

More confused with every new tidbit...

Proximus
08-25-2004, 04:17 AM
"Hastings demonstrated the capabilities of the Nexus environment, using it to interactively render 736 million polygons in a scene where the camera moved forward through a seemingly infinite field of multicolored 3D animated hippos while he changed colors on the fly."The demo were showing is based around 3D, because thats what we do, said Peebler. But the Nexus architecture doesnt consider any data any different than any other data. Its less a 3D system than a next-generation object-oriented approach to development.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OK, I have to say 2 things:

1) Years ago, before I got the Video Toaster 2, I heard some blurb about how ineficient was to run the aplication on top of Windows and some peoples from the company were thinking about an OS like environement. I guess some of those people made Luxology. Chapeau for this.

2) But even if this is the case, 736 million would be an unbelivable amount of polys to be rendered in real time.
Also except Modo, I don't see any mention about the Hardware platform they used to run this 3d OS on.

More details would be welcome, now that the bird is out of the cage anyway, maybe some people who asisted at the demo could come forward...

Nando
08-25-2004, 04:20 AM
Right the interactive renderer was sorta Fprime-ish except on steriods.

The thing that folks dont mention is that it was super fast, and running on a Mac G5 ( maybe dual 2, since apple says they havent shipped 2.5 becuase of not having Nvidia cards ready).

Also, Nexus can do Bucket rendering, and use available machines on a network to render a single frame. So each bucket is a render node, if I understood the tech demo correctly.

I figured I drop something to keep this thread on the Subject, and also make it longer..... and Longer.. ;)

CB_3D
08-25-2004, 04:31 AM
The number is correct.

.jason
wow....that IS impressive!

FunBucket
08-25-2004, 04:37 AM
The article says that there's going to be an exciting announcement in early 2005... man, I cannot WAIT to find out what this Nexus thing is capable of.

Para
08-25-2004, 05:12 AM
all i can say right now is this year has bought a lot of 3d power in to the hands of the user, be it XSI, C4D, or LW8 or Motion or Silo, and some at very reasonable prices like Silo, XSI and Wings

And this year isn't even over yet - just imagine what's coming!



;)

Galo
08-25-2004, 07:26 AM
Looks like what the LW8 modeler should've been, imho.
Will you stop this for once and for ever,..... LW will come along fine, they have to much resposibility cause half hollywood is still using it,.....think before you post stuff man!

private
08-25-2004, 07:54 AM
Looks like what the LW8 modeler should've been, imho.
It's true.

Will you stop this for once and for ever,..... LW will come along fine, they have to much resposibility cause half hollywood is still using it,.....think before you post stuff man!It's pretty well documented that the people developing at Lux were the people responsible for developing the Lightwave you and I use...that half of hollywood is still using. From the videos, it seems that Cman's comments are 100% correct yet wishful thinking. I'm sure there was some thought behind the post.

Pazur
08-25-2004, 09:05 AM
the article on cgnetworks is up:

http://www.cgnetworks.com/story.php?story_id=2317

not much new info though...

mushroomgod
08-25-2004, 12:32 PM
the article on cgnetworks is up:

http://www.cgnetworks.com/story.php?story_id=2317

not much new info though...
wow...that was a bit of an anticlimax. I was hoping there would be more info than that.

I wonder if cgchannel will have a write up on it also

Nemoid
08-25-2004, 12:40 PM
From what i read here of Nexus being an OS and an animation/rendering module, this means it will be adopted alot from all the major studios. infact, in the case u use different apps they could be hosted in the nexus UI .

maybe there's a way to customize the interface to establish a common standard to work smoothly, in the sense u could use let's say Ps for texturing inside Nexus and give to it the UI u want but use the actual PS tools and the same for all different apps.

in this case, this is a wonderful idea. just think to all the apps we are actually forced to use if we want a better feature/workflow process. Nexus could solve many probs, giving us a common UI for different apps.

can't wait and see the toolset Nexus will offer too, since the rendering engine seems to be really good. 750.000.000 and more of real polys?:eek: or were them instances ? the first answer is the one i want to hear!! :D

chadtheartist
08-25-2004, 12:49 PM
Even if it was instances, it's still impressive. Especially considering they were animated. I wonder if this would be something that could be used for future game engines?

nisa_0818
08-25-2004, 12:53 PM
where can we download the DEMO?

Nemoid
08-25-2004, 01:20 PM
Even if it was instances, it's still impressive. Especially considering they were animated. I wonder if this would be something that could be used for future game engines?
Yap it is cool as well, but there's also a Lw plug wich does quite the same. it's not a built in feature though, so Nexus will surely be better here.

managing a real lot of polygons makes me think about ZBrush, but since i dunno how Zbrush reaches to handle a so subdivided mesh, i'll be very happy if Modo Nexus will handle a lot o polys for huge scenes too.

Thinking that the programmers are the original creators of Lightwave , wich handles very well huge amounts of polys i m confident about Lux products too!:)

I hope Modo /Nexus will be able to host Zbrush in the Nexus environment to further build a extremely detailed mesh as a final output, using normal maps.

another thing i seriously hope is that the possibility to host different apps will not require an hard coding from the final user.

chadtheartist
08-25-2004, 01:34 PM
I think Z2's biggest benefit is it isn't bogged down by other things, ie animation, dynamics, etc... I'm thinking that Modo will probably share that same benefit. But I don't know if it will allow for painting/sculpting geometry like Zbrush can. We'll have to wait and see I guess.

Para
08-25-2004, 01:55 PM
managing a real lot of polygons makes me think about ZBrush, but since i dunno how Zbrush reaches to handle a so subdivided mesh, i'll be very happy if Modo Nexus will handle a lot o polys for huge scenes too.

Totally off-topic, but since you asked:

Apparently ZBrush stores the basic shape (SubD level 0) of the object and infinite resolution bitmap (possibly some vector map) to the object file. Then ZBrush also saves the current level of SubD (lets say...4) and a corresponding bitmap generated from the infinite one. The best way to optimize your file size with ZBrush is actually to drag the SubD level to 1 or 0 before saving :)

Nemoid
08-25-2004, 02:42 PM
Thanx for the replyPara

Sub d level 0 is the low poly mesh. when u go and subdivide this mesh to paint literally more highly refined details is this handled through wich u say an infinite resolution vector map?

in this case what we see aren't real polygons but a representation of them? however this seems to work in Zbrush only, due to its pixol concept, and the huge mesh wich derives from the detailing work is good for normal maps and UV maps to apply tothe low -mid poly mesh.

a great thing would be to be able to use Modo combined with ZBrush into an unique platform as Nexus seems to be. build your low poly mesh with Modo, and then use the zBrush tools to paint your detailed mesh and build the normal map to apply to the base mesh, all without exiting your UI :D

Para
08-25-2004, 03:39 PM
Sub d level 0 is the low poly mesh. when u go and subdivide this mesh to paint literally more highly refined details is this handled through wich u say an infinite resolution vector map?

Sure seems like that, although I'm not 100% sure. The core of ZBrush seems to be fast handling of subdivided geometry and friggin' huge displacement map that can be updated in real time :)

a great thing would be to be able to use Modo combined with ZBrush into an unique platform as Nexus seems to be. build your low poly mesh with Modo, and then use the zBrush tools to paint your detailed mesh and build the normal map to apply to the base mesh, all without exiting your UI :D

That'd be the (r)evolution of CG :buttrock:

Nemoid
08-25-2004, 06:38 PM
Sure seems like that, although I'm not 100% sure. The core of ZBrush seems to be fast handling of subdivided geometry and friggin' huge displacement map that can be updated in real time :)
Whatever way Zbrush handles it, it gives really great results to detail a mesh. it lacks some tool to correct the polyflow and topology in low poly meshes , so far, and here a tool like Modo can be of great help. If Nexus will be able to host other apps, we will not have the need to switch between apps, having a smoother and funny workflow.



That'd be the (r)evolution of CG :buttrock:
I obviously agree ! :buttrock:

Xtrude
08-25-2004, 07:14 PM
Well... I kinda think the next (r)evolution combining ZBrush with any modeling app would be to have things so that when you imported a model into ZBrush, that it would turn into ZSpheres, while holding onto the geom info within adaptive preview... ;)

and yea, would be even cooler if things worked together like OLE , just jump in and out, back and forth... better yet, since we have the OS discussion going on here, then heck, just make the toolbars workontop, and userdefinable, so that you can stack your choice of toolbars from several different apps all within one UI... instead of developing apps, now just develope tools (toolbars) to fit within one... break away from the limiting propriety UI design, and give the artist the Tool Studio the way it is within the realworld... I mean when I am working with wood projects I don't run back and forth from the Dewalt Shop to the Makita Shop, nope, the tools are just where I need em, all within one shop... ;)

Now that's a pipeline reality I envision... modular reality 101... isn't it about time?

minus23
08-25-2004, 07:28 PM
If they write a browser and email client into Nexus... I won't ever have to leave the application. ;) I could just set the app to Full Screen mode and be done with it. I love running the browser in XSI. XSI's is cool too cause you can just drag and drop a pic on a web page into another viewport, and it adds that clip to the XSI clip library to be used while creating your surfaces. It's got other uses too like draging script links from websites to XSI.

Nemoid
08-25-2004, 07:51 PM
Well... I kinda think the next (r)evolution combining ZBrush with any modeling app would be to have things so that when you imported a model into ZBrush, that it would turn into ZSpheres, while holding onto the geom info within adaptive preview... ;)

and yea, would be even cooler if things worked together like OLE , just jump in and out, back and forth... better yet, since we have the OS discussion going on here, then heck, just make the toolbars workontop, and userdefinable, so that you can stack your choice of toolbars from several different apps all within one UI... instead of developing apps, now just develope tools (toolbars) to fit within one... break away from the limiting propriety UI design, and give the artist the Tool Studio the way it is within the realworld... I mean when I am working with wood projects I don't run back and forth from the Dewalt Shop to the Makita Shop, nope, the tools are just where I need em, all within one shop... ;)

Now that's a pipeline reality I envision... modular reality 101... isn't it about time?
hehe well, if you like to use zspheres like me, u could also build your base mesh with z spheres, store it tweak it a little with gorgeous ZBrush toolset, then fix the polyflow and refine the low mesh optimizing it in modo toolset and finally detail yor mesh for normal maps and texture producing.
back and forth, but is u are in the same UI you will not have that impression.

however your idea is good but i wonder how zbrush could handle it... some mesh analisys and convert to z spheres?right now the mesh should follow the current result you get with z spheres in terms of polygon organization though.

Beamtracer
08-26-2004, 05:52 AM
If a company wanted to develop a media related application, they'd be better writing it for the Nexus OS. They can write it once and it will work on both Mac OS X and Windows.

My understanding of Windows is that it is not an Object Oriented operating system. Nexus is O.O. So I would guess that programming for Nexus would be easier than Windows. Mac OS X is already Object Oriented.

My novice understanding of "object oriented" programming is that it allows components and building blocks to be reused, making programming easier.

Zithen
08-26-2004, 07:46 AM
Check out the Tao Group's intent. www.tao-group.com (http://www.tao-group.com)
It's what the new Amiga OS was based on and it reminds me of the Nexus OS.
It's a virtual processor that translates virtual machine code into the binary code for the right processor or OS.
It's fast, it's platform independent, it loads quick, all the "tools" can interoperate with other tools (encapsulated functions a bit similar to objects in C++)...so it sounds very similar to Luxology's Nexus. I'm not saying Nexus is Tao's intent, of course...but it could be a similar technology, which would literally make it more advanced than any other 3d application as far as potential.

AmbientLight
08-26-2004, 08:07 AM
My understanding of Windows is that it is not an Object Oriented operating system. Nexus is O.O. So I would guess that programming for Nexus would be easier than Windows. Mac OS X is already Object Oriented.
M'key... What you said is total bullcrap :)

My novice understanding of "object oriented" programming is that it allows components and building blocks to be reused, making programming easier.
OOP is a programming paradigm beyond and including data abstraction facilities. Basic support needed consists of a class mechanism with inheritance and a mechanism that allows calls of member functions to depend on the actual type of an object (in cases where the actual type is unknown at compile time).

Stone
08-26-2004, 12:23 PM
im impressed by the lack of knowledge people demonstrate doing the last few pages of this thread. save AmbientLight and a few others, the amount of false information, misunderstandings and sore lack of insight into what an operatingsystem is, what objectoriented means, and how programming works altogether, have brought this thread to a fantastic high level of nonsense being thrown about.

most of the posts doesnt make any sense whatsoever, and only goes go confuse and demonstrate the obvious lack of knowledge from the posters.

/stone

chadtheartist
08-26-2004, 12:43 PM
Stone,

I appreciate your input, but it comes across as boasting. I don't know if that was your intent or not, but to "brag" about your knowledge and not share what information you have, is rather conceded. So people don't know what they're talking about. Enlighten us, please. That's the beauty of an online forum, for those willing to share their information.

I don't want this to be a personal attack. It's a genuine interest on my part. I plead ignorance on this issue, hence my post

The article said Nexus is an operating system. Not just a program. How the heck did that happen? LOL
...
I don't believe the article. No way.

Nexus OS. Weird. Modo... module... of an OS?

Thalaxis
08-26-2004, 03:05 PM
I appreciate your input, but it comes across as boasting. I don't know if that was your intent or not, but to "brag" about your knowledge and not share what information you have, is rather conceded. So people don't know what they're talking about. Enlighten us, please.

Now that's a first... someone who's not only honest about not knowing something, but doesn't pontificate about it! Why are people like you so uncommon around here?

BeamTracer had one thing right, which is that one benefit of object-oriented programming is to facilitate code reuse. Stone was talking about the how, Beam was referring to the why.

It's probably misleading to call it an OS, because I doubt that most people here will ever understand what an OS actually does. The concept is fairly simple; it provides an abstraction of the hardware for a user to interact with. Beyond that it gets pretty complicated. The services that a modern OS provides are legion.


That's the beauty of an online forum, for those willing to share their information.

There are too many people who don't have any information who insist on making up information to share. It tries one's patience.

ThE_JacO
08-26-2004, 03:21 PM
Stone,

I appreciate your input, but it comes across as boasting. I don't know if that was your intent or not, but to "brag" about your knowledge and not share what information you have, is rather conceded. So people don't know what they're talking about. Enlighten us, please. That's the beauty of an online forum, for those willing to share their information.

I don't want this to be a personal attack. It's a genuine interest on my part. I plead ignorance on this issue, hence my post I wouldn't call it boasting, more like bursting and taking in a couple of innocent victims in the process.
It happens to all of us from time to time :)

as for his take on people's ignorance of some fundamental concepts I have to partially agree.
the problem is that A LOT of people mistake an understanding of the english meaning of something to be understanding of the technology, and tend to put everything in human reasoning terms, computers sadly don't agree.

OOP is nothing weird or even mystical, it's something you do when you have a language, a teamlead, a plan and timeframes that allow(require) you to.

In human terms it means you break your code into functional pieces that interconnect.
the very moment you write in C++ and you let an external class do something, instead of hard embedding it into a single monolitic piece of code, you are already doing one of the things that define OOP.

OOP, like many other things that sound sci-fi to the non coders, is considered less then basics. ANY programmer worth his salt can do it. Assuming none of windows elements are OO, just because it seems to you that windows isn't modular, to any remotely clued person sounds like total rubbish.

the same could be said about a lot of things.

how would you feel if somebody who NEVER opened a 3D app in his life would pretend to be clued by rephrasing some snippets of what he heard in a DVDspecial? It would be clueless to the point of being irritating wouldn't it?

it works the same way when some people talk about programming or OS' without having the faintest idea of what goes on under the hood. the subject is soooo ridiculously vast that blanket statments will NEVER hit the mark, not even if the proverbial 68 millions of monkeys were to spend a couple of years randomly typing all possible blanket statments.

Xtrude
08-26-2004, 08:46 PM
hehe, I guess I am to blame here... sorry if so, my bad... I do not have any programming experience at all :shrug:

I just really can't understand why apps cannot simply be written as plugins, to fit within a general UI... I mean they do sort of anyways in the sense that they all run on a OS... but why can't this be whereby they get rid of the redunancy of all the seperate UI's and just all run within one...

Infact, I kinda feel that this could become a reality, just all the seperate companies would not be interested, as it would seem like they would be losing so much of a whole package effect... and that they are more interested in how they look, large like, than caring about how easy this would make things for the end user... money over common sense... nobody willing to take the first move... nobody willing to admit that UI a) would be a cool start, and that they should write for said UI a)... heaven forbid they should be relegated to becoming a plugin company...

I dunno, maybe I am wrong here, or just maybe there is simply too much to loose out on, by the powers that be, for the end user to ever get a "System" which would truly be worthy of such a tag...

I would think that one extrude function on a machine would be enough, on to the next function... etc, etc, etc... perhaps I am wrong... hehe, it has happened more than once before :)

Xtrude
08-26-2004, 09:43 PM
and speaking of modularity... and such "rubbish" , Imagine if BodyPaint was written by Alias, yet worked as it does now, stand alone, or within the base app, in this case C4D... hmmm, doesn't sound like rubbish to me... ;)

Beamtracer
08-26-2004, 10:21 PM
My novice understanding of "object oriented" programming is that it allows components and building blocks to be reused

What you said is total bullcrap

im impressed by the lack of knowledge people demonstrate [...] and sore lack of insight into what an operatingsystem is, what objectoriented means, and how programming works altogether, have brought this thread to a fantastic high level of nonsense being thrown about.

most of the posts doesnt make any sense whatsoever, and only goes go confuse and demonstrate the obvious lack of knowledge from the posters.

how would you feel if somebody who NEVER opened a 3D app in his life would pretend to be clued by rephrasing some snippets of what he heard in a DVDspecial? It would be clueless to the point of being irritating wouldn't it?

it works the same way when some people talk about programming or OS' without having the faintest idea of what goes on under the hood.

Wow. Wrath of the programming gods.

ThE_JacO
08-26-2004, 11:04 PM
Wow. Wrath of the programming gods.
I wish I was a programming god :)
I was just putting in plain words why some people are irritated by such, apparently harmless and simple, comments.

Nemoid
08-26-2004, 11:38 PM
No programmer at all here so can't really understand why you guys are discussing so harshly about OOP programming.
This being said, if i said silly things about Nexus or modo cause of my lack of knowledge i apologize.even if i don't think i'll have to do this.

My intention was to try to understand better what Modo and Nexus are exactly and what consequences this technologies will bring.

But,what Modo/Nexus will be,and how it will work exactly, only some people could say so far.

Luxology guys.

so i really can't wait to know more!! :D

Chaz
08-27-2004, 03:39 AM
Well, programmers and non-programmers alike should be interested in one benefit that comes with an object-oriented methodology of application design: faster updates.

For non-programmers out there, a good analogy for OOP methodology can be found in web design; take a well-designed PHP application - you could create one master include file to define all your global variables and queries, include it in hundreds of web pages to provide that functionality instantly. Global changes - even massive re-writes are fairly simple. Use a CSS stylesheet to define classes that every page uses...change one line of code in the stylesheet and that change gets propagated instantly on every page that calls it. It's much easier than hacking through one huge chunk of code, especially when your changes may affect parts of the application further down the line that you're not directly aware of. Developers working with older code may spend more time trying to fix bugs than adding new features, and that's when you have to evaluate whether to rebuild the application or not. No one wants to buy an app with new features that feel "band-aided" on.

Evidence of this can be found in newer applications like Cinema 4D, which has been rewritten several times, Softimage XSI and even Mac OSX. Each of these has very regular updates, and get substantially more powerful with each update. It's not that their programmers are all that more talented, it's just that making changes is that much easier. I may be oversimplifying here, but hopefully this will help others understand.

I'm leery of speculating too much, but based on all the evidence, I'd say we'll see Luxology's apps ramp up fairly quickly and become quite the contender in a year or two. If the SDK is well-built and easy to design for, then perhaps we'll see a Shave or Renderman for Nexus (or whatever it will be called) fairly quickly. Newtek made mention that they had a roadmap in place to code Mac Lightwave in XCode, so it appears that changes may be going on within Newtek...it's going to be interesting to see what happens in 2005.

Nemoid
08-27-2004, 01:09 PM
Yeah that. :buttrock:
i got well your analogy with web design and also talked with a friend wich explained me the good difference between simle C and more modern C++ C++ allows to write a better code and less cluttered because you don't have to write every time the same parts of the code, so its more powerful and at the same time easier to debug for sure.

Lw for now is incidentally still based on old C code wich means its terribly difficult to update , recompile, fix bugs. they said they will transfet the app release from release into a more modern environment and this would be great since it's currently just a complete app, tools can be made as plugins to be put into a C+ environment really easy once that the job is done. to build such a core requires time, though, and actually i think it's what Lux guys did in these latest years, maybe projecting their idea a little time before they leaved NT.

So far they have coded their OS Nexus, and Modo wich is the Modeler module wich will fit into it. we currently dunno exactly, but Modo seems to be very well structured, so it of course run smoothly in Nexus, cause it derives from the base structure Lux coded.

Then, the same Nexus environment has a toolset or at least hosts another animation & rendering module that works the same as modo but in animation.

In the mean time, from Peebler's words read in its interview i can understand that the platform could host other tools/apps , even 2D because what it reads are data indipendently them being 2d, 3D whatever. dunno if other apps should be created for it, or could also simply be ported by interested companies specifically for Nexus.

A little example that comes to my mind is the ability of XSI 4.0 to literally host other apps UI in its window,:drool: for now really great for game engines but in the future who knows.

Something similar but maybe better and extended will happen with Nexus I think.

2005 willl be indeed an interesting year since great things will come for 3D industry.

AmbientLight
08-27-2004, 01:16 PM
FYI, Linux kernel is written in C, not C++. It is more stable then LightWave :) It doesn't matter what language you use... really.

Nemoid
08-27-2004, 07:11 PM
OK you're probably right. Linux is solid as a rock. :)

but the majority of 3D apps currently has been written in C++ or similar languages.

Unfortunately, Lw problems are not a matter of stability, but rather of tools coded into a difficult way that give life to some probs like plugs working not so smoothly with the core, debugging difficulties, and coding difficulties too cause the Lw code was not commented.

Surely if an app is coded well works well also in C , no doubt, but in the case of very complex programs like 3D apps I think a C programmed codecan be long, very long.

C++ or other modern languages would be more easy to work with.

The Nt team is working very well despite these probs :) I am confident we will see something cool with some time of work

BinarySoup
08-28-2004, 05:42 AM
wel, oop definately comes at it's best in a open architecture as this, since the 3rd party interface will likely be through classes, thus allowing easy overriding of functionality. that c++ would be alot faster to program than c however, is something I can't agree with, classes hides alot of pointer arithmetic from the user, and "very generally speaking" is a wrapper for a structure and a function pointer list, which can make it easier to debug. a system such as nexus is perhaps the poster boy of oop, not for speed or size, but for the language's native ability to inherit and override functionality.

"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot, C++ makes it harder, but when you do it blows your whole leg off." - Bjarne Stroustrup the problem with lw's architecture is not that of the language it's been programmed in, but that of the way the core architecture and it's interface was designed.

it's an interesting concept luxology has though, offering something like a large api of 3d functionality on top of a OS-like environment, ripe and ready to build 3d applications in, with the ability to override near every existing function, maybe the next major lightwave release will run on Nexus? ;) (ouch! stop hitting!)

Nemoid
08-28-2004, 11:10 AM
Hey Binary thanx for your explaination about programming. it was really inteersting. :)

About Lw structure one thing must be taken into consideration. Lw actually was born to do titles and some little animation for TV, and afterwards bundled with Video Toaster by Nt. Lw was conceived as acutually 2 separate apps, to work into a very linear structure, and then the hub was created to make em work better.


This also means, doble code to create for some tools, and double code for plugs to do something in modeler and layout to end up with the right workflow.
An example of a problem could be that: if u want to make a plug for weight maps in layout, to rig your char entirely there, u can't, because the Lw SDK doesn't allow this.
The same can happen for other things. despite this Lw has astonishing plugs and a great users community.

So, while enhanced in time, Lw was coded upon this structure .a linear one, not nodal as it happens in other apps, too. so some prob can also present to u using plugs , where and when in your pipeline, and no easy way to correct this.

Now, since Lw toolset especially for modelling is really good, and with a really fast workflow compared to other apps despite not having things like n gons and edges , things are good in Lw.
What it lacks is great flexibility, history, unlimited undos for all the app( they were not conceived when coding the base of Layout), instances. It has a good rendering engine, though. not fast but very good. and Fprime seem to promise really well.
Worley himself asked for a more opened SDK and API to better integrate his wonderful plugs in the app.

So after all this being said, Modo/ Nexus sems to have some good Lw inheritance with all the advantages of a modern structure. the toolset of Modo obviously is inspired by Lw modeler's toolset but shows great enhancements in all areas, edges, ngons, different subpatch algorithms, tools dedicated to detail better the mesh, simmetry on all axes, no UV distortion on sub patches, construction history and much more. here ths structure has been thought to be really opened, so good compatibility with other apps, configurable UI and more. all this for a very smooth and i'd say fun workflow, just because if working in Lw's modeler is so fun, working in Modo will be even more fun.

Then, Nexus as a sort of platform is another cool idea, a better way than the hub to make different modules working together. they will work smooth and surely they'll be able to behave like an one app structure, as it happens in Maya and XSI , but a better example could be C4D.

So, finally, i think the goal of Lux guys is to give to users the most speedy and effective workflow, surely better of other apps, especially designed also for solo users wich do many things from modelling to animating to rendering, as it happens so much in Lw.

At the same time, being very opened it will suit also for larger teams of specialized operators making their work better and easier than now.
For a good workflow is good to have tools wich make u able to do really quickly the basic work, and then go deeper enhancing the work refining it more and more and more. :)

DotPainter
08-28-2004, 11:52 PM
Actually Irix is the closest thing to a true graphics OS today.....

mushroomgod
08-29-2004, 12:49 AM
................waitig for demo/news....anything?...........

Thalaxis
08-29-2004, 01:15 AM
Actually Irix is the closest thing to a true graphics OS today.....
It's a shame that BeOS didn't survive :sad:

It was made for this sort of thing.

Beamtracer
08-29-2004, 03:00 AM
Pre-orders for Modo can be placed on Luxology's website, as long as they happen before the end of August.

The following is pure speculation: For non-US customers it may be better to pre-order. I suspect that after August, the only way for those outside the US to purchase Modo will be from a distributor. I was alarmed when I read on Luxology's old website that among their "partners" were some of the same distributors that Newtek used to distribute Lightwave. Some of these are bedroom operations, running a distribution service from the bedroom of their house, and charging high premiums for non-US people to purchase the product.

I hope Luxology doesn't use any of these bedroom operations to distribute Modo. If it does happen, I think it would be better to pre-order Modo straight from Luxology before the end of August.

Once again, I qualify this as speculation on my part. You may want to contact Luxology to find out how Modo will be distributed, and if a pre-order will bypass the distributor middle-men and their exorbitant mark-ups.

Nemoid
08-29-2004, 07:11 AM
Thanx for the information Beam I live in Italy and this could be very important for me.

I'll wait for awhile to know more on Modo directly on the website ,and through email communication maybe i will be able to know better how it ships.

Incidentally, Newtek distribution here is quite good due to DBline, the Italian distributor, but there's a great problem : the price of Lw here is converted directly in Euros : ergo, if we have 1500 $ for Lw, we will pay 1500 euros wich are much more money, being euros a stronger monetary value than dollars currently. :(

about Modo/Nexus distribution i hope they will manage to behave just like XSI distribution and customer service. I've heard really good things on that one. :thumbsup:

ChristianFischer
08-29-2004, 07:27 AM
Pre-orders for Modo can be placed on Luxology's website, as long as they happen before the end of August.why do you think so ?
on the website it says ..

We will begin taking pre-orders through this site before the end of August.
In the mean time if you would like to be the first on your block to order modo, you can send a pre-order request to sales (http://luxology.com/company/contact_form.aspx?contact=Sales).i don't think they will stop taking preorders in september since they didn't start taking preorders through the website but via an email form.

or did i misunderstood something??

cheers chris

Beamtracer
08-29-2004, 08:25 AM
Thanx for the information Beam
Didn't give any real information. I stressed I was just speculating, so I don't really know how Modo will be distributed.

Actually, a more likely scenario may be that Lux takes pre-orders and then just hands that list on to local distributors.

I just feel that some distributers (who have appeared on Lux's partners list) have a history of jacking the price up, while adding nothing to the promotion of the product. This only succeeds in making the product less affordable. It would leave people outside the US paying a lot more than the listed price. This happens already with Lightwave 3D.

I'd like to see Lux sell directly from their website using the postal service and/or couriers, or even download (it is possible, even for big files). This would enable the lowest price.

Nemoid
08-29-2004, 11:14 AM
Agree.

Aniway we will see how they will handle this in a few days. :)

futuretheory
08-29-2004, 06:57 PM
Actually Irix is the closest thing to a true graphics OS today.....

I like Irix and all, but that statement is just silly.

jedi71
08-30-2004, 12:45 AM
Hello everyone, :)

I have a question abt modo's SDS support of N-gons.
I am only familiar with LW's SDS or Subpatches with a requirement/limit of 3 or 4 vertices.
Is modo's support of N-gons something new for 3d apps? Does Maya (or XSI) SDS support N-gons?

Thanks a lot in advance for any replies. :)

Thalaxis
08-30-2004, 12:57 AM
Yes, Modo does support n-gons. So do Maya and XSI, and shortly Cinema4D (when v9 ships).
Also, RealSoft4D and Silo support n-gons as well.

I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones that come to mind immediately for me.

FunBucket
08-30-2004, 12:59 AM
Maya, XSI, C4D, and 3DS Max all have n-gons. It means that a polygon can have more then 4 vertices (or edges.) I don't think it's very new at all... not sure how long it's been around though. Maybe someone else can chime in with the specifics. :)

jedi71
08-30-2004, 01:35 AM
Thanks a lot Thalaxis and gutterboxkid for yr replies! :)

Don't mean to throw acid rain on the modo parade ( I'm very interested in modo myself,:) and I'm happy abt SDS n-gons and modo's compatibility support for LW's Subpatches) but then how is modo's n-gon SDS better/newer than the others? I gathered from one of the quicktimes that modo's SDS resolution is higher and smoother??

So I also guess if I model an object in modo with n-gons and use SubDs then I will have no problems when I export the model to Maya with .ma or to XSI with .obj???
Will I be able to export to C4D or 3ds max if I need to?

gustojunk
08-30-2004, 02:22 AM
Thanks a lot Thalaxis and gutterboxkid for yr replies! :)

So I also guess if I model an object in modo with n-gons and use SubDs then I will have no problems when I export the model to Maya with .ma or to XSI with .obj???
Will I be able to export to C4D or 3ds max if I need to?I also wonder what would happened to models with weighted edges (creases) created in Modo. How will I get that model out to other programs and mantain the creased edges?

Thalaxis
08-30-2004, 02:27 AM
Thanks a lot Thalaxis and gutterboxkid for yr replies! :)

No problem!


but then how is modo's n-gon SDS better/newer than the others? I gathered from one of the quicktimes that modo's SDS resolution is higher and smoother??

I don't think that Modo's SDS is what's better. That isn't actually one of their selling points, or at least not a major one.

Modo's primary selling point as a modeller is not even the tools, so much; it's what they've done with them.

That's not intended as a criticism, though. They do after all have some new and unusual (and cool) tools in there, but most of what they've been showing in their vids hasn't been anything that you CAN'T do in another application, but rather a demonstration of how easy it is to do with Modo.


So I also guess if I model an object in modo with n-gons and use SubDs then I will have no problems when I export the model to Maya with .ma or to XSI with .obj???
Will I be able to export to C4D or 3ds max if I need to?
That I don't know. I think yes, but I'll leave it at that and defer to someone who knows an answer for sure.

jedi71
08-30-2004, 03:02 AM
I also wonder what would happened to models with weighted edges (creases) created in Modo. How will I get that model out to other programs and mantain the creased edges?
From my understanding, edge creases/weights would be applied on modo SubD'd models and the correct geometry would be created, and then able to be exported to other apps, when one 'freezes' the model. Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still new to all this.

jedi71
08-30-2004, 03:32 AM
That I don't know. I think yes, but I'll leave it at that and defer to someone who knows an answer for sure.
Yeah I hope it'll be yes too cause why would they make a modeling app that doesn't work well with others (besides the obvious LW and Maya). I assume they've got it covered, but I guess most will not know for sure until it ships and this is tested out.

Yeah modo sure seems easier to use and the workflow seems nice as well.
Hope it will turn out real well and make everyone involved happy. :)

Thanks.

Thalaxis
08-30-2004, 03:36 AM
It certainly does look pretty slick. Let's hope it works out :)

Anticulturist
08-30-2004, 03:33 PM
to onloker :

You should temperate your xenophobic remarcs, we are a lot of foreigners here from all over the world and if someone do not have a perfect english it does not mean it did not understood your meaning.

Your posts on highend3d seems more civil.

jlinhart
08-30-2004, 09:19 PM
Luxology will be showing modo at Apple Expo in Paris this week. We will be located in the partner pavillion area of Apple's booth.

.jason
www.luxology.com

Chedri
08-31-2004, 08:09 AM
Preordering via the modo web site should start today, according to their website ("before end of august"). It will be interesting to see if it does, or if they are delayed.

Labuzz
08-31-2004, 08:23 AM
Hello Jason,
Can I go to the Apple Expo today ( 31 ) to see Modo or should I go to the expo another day?
Tky

maxx10
08-31-2004, 08:57 AM
at the apple expo's keynote they are showing the nexus rendering platform as well, not only modo.... at least that's what I read at a mac news site that's covering the expo live

Nemoid
08-31-2004, 11:38 AM
great news.

hey Labuzz let us know your opinions and impressions on this puppy when u return pls.

-JT-
08-31-2004, 12:14 PM
I'm just back form the Apple expo in Paris where I had a demo on Modo.

The demo guy from Luxology was really nice and showed me a lot of the features, this is what I found out :

the good :
- very fast
- the edge weighing (very powerful)
- extremely customizable
- good little things that improve the workflow (double-click on a edge to select, select things without having to deselect first (like lightwave), a lot of nice selection modes, etc..)
- the ability to use the fallofs in the morphs
- scripts " la photoshop" to redo things

the bad :
- no history
- no universal manipulator tool (but possible in a next version)
- no lattice deformers (but possible in a next version)
- the price

It's quite difficult to explain the soft, you have to see it in action to feel its power, it feels quite good to me, everything seems smooth and right, of course I'll try a demo before I can really make up my mind.

Another guy asked him about Nexus, and he said the renderer should be available in the beginning of next year, it seems very powerful, apparently it will render billions of polys with radiosity on in approximatly 20 seconds (well the demo guy never saw it in action, but that's what he knows).
Anyway Nexus is going to be a full package (a 3D system as he said), they are going to have animation as well.

My thought is that Modo looks very promising but not a revolution, but it's a first release, future will tell us how it's evolving.

js33
08-31-2004, 12:32 PM
Thanks for the news JT.

It's starting to sound a lot like the next gen Lightwave. :thumbsup:
the bad :
- no history

I thought Modo did have a history feature? I'll have to go look at the website.


Another guy asked him about Nexus, and he said the renderer should be available in the beginning of next year, it seems very powerful, apparently it will render billions of polys with radiosity on in approximatly 20 seconds (well the demo guy never saw it in action, but that's what he knows).


Sounds like it has instancing and FPrime builtin. It sounds sweeter the more I hear about it.

Are there any dynamics builtin to Nexus or whatever the animation part will be?

At first I thought it was just going to be another Modeler and was interested but not all that excited about it but the more I hear about the renderer and soon to be animation module and I am getting very interested.

I hope it is more powerful than Maya with the ease of use of Lightwave without the workarounds.

Cheers,
JS

Balusilustalu
08-31-2004, 01:03 PM
Hi JT,

could you elaborate a bit more about the 'lack' of a history feature. In one of the lux. clips they are making use of a command history menu to modify vertex selection.

BTW... what was the rest of the show like? (O.T. I know.. sorry) Any other interesting CG related things about? I'm thinking of dropping by the show myself but am wondering if it's worth the round trip from London.

-JT-
08-31-2004, 01:40 PM
Yes he told me there was no history, but a command menu, I didn't exactly get what it could do.
I asked about history because to delete edges from a cylinder (attched to a spline snaped to an object) he had to do it by hand, I remember the spline/tube option from Max where you can decide how many rows you desire and change it later.

The rest of the show was allright, Lightwave 8 was being demonstrated on a small booth but there was nothing new, they used the same examples showed in Siggraph (dynamics etc..).
Cinema 4D was also shown but I don't know what they showed exactly as there was too many people.
Carrara 4 was announced, with some new options (I watched a bit but was thinking at the same time why would anyone want Carrara now that XSI foundation is cheaper... and then I remembered that I was in an Mac expo...)

SMH
08-31-2004, 02:00 PM
There was a demo of Nexus in the keynote. They rendered a 1 billion poly, GI scene in 35 seconds, on a G5. Although I think they were using instancing, 35 seconds is still fast for a GI scene of that size. Let's hope we get to see this when Apple posts the keynote video.

ThomasMahler
08-31-2004, 02:51 PM
So whats the trick? I mean, how's that possible...?

1 billion Polys with GI in 35 seconds? Sounds too good to be true. No matter if they used instanced polys, rendering a 1 billion Polys Scene with GI in 35 Seconds would be pretty jawdropping!

js33
08-31-2004, 02:56 PM
Perhaps they have incorporated Fprime into the renderer. But the current version for Lightwave gives you fast feedback of GI but takes some time to clear up the grain. This could be using a newer version of Fprime that hasn't been released yet.

Cheers,
JS

jlinhart
08-31-2004, 02:59 PM
Preordering via the modo web site should start today, according to their website ("before end of august"). It will be interesting to see if it does, or if they are delayed.
It will be delayed for a few days.

.jason
www.luxology.com

retinajoy
08-31-2004, 03:00 PM
I believe it is their own renderer which has nothing to do with Worley, but does have some similarities to FPrime.

-JT-
08-31-2004, 03:01 PM
no it's not Fprime, I asked.
he said the viewer will be comparable to fprime in terms of speed but the final render has nothing to do with Fprime.

ChristianFischer
08-31-2004, 03:22 PM
It will be delayed for a few days.
how many days are "a few"?

i have to register my lightwave licence to another person but i want of course make use of the lightwave special price ... :twisted:

regards chris

mushroomgod
08-31-2004, 03:29 PM
jlinhart, can you confirm that there will be a demo available?