Project Shadow

[Loveless]

Hey mate, looks really nice, I would love to hlp, but, for one, I'm sort of helping on another tactical shooter, tactical assault, www.ta-network.net, and arent as good as what you guys want. However, those models look very impressive, especially the blackhawk, for the polygon limit! Best of luck to you!
- Derek

[vvg]

Thanks for the compliments. I don't want to give the impression that we are only looking at modelers who are better than our current artists. What is more important is getting people who have the basic skills and are willing to improve and contribute for the full length of the project. What we offer now is an opportunity to be in a dedicated team that has a passion for game development. So, we are interested in motivated individuals with different skill levels.

[vvg]

Still haven't found any qualified candidates for character or general modelers. What is our project lacking that skilled modelers are not interested? I would be very interested to know if there something that we need to work on in order to attract modelers. Obviously, money is a big factor but we are looking for financial backing in the near future so we can offer paid jobs. Time to get in with us is now, because when we do have money for salaries, we would be a lot more critical in who we hire. So, why aren't all the modelers who are looking for a break in the game industry getting in contact with us? I'm sure we don't stink. :)

[Bear]

vvg - this is not personal, take no offense.

if you really want to attract modelers you need another approach instead of listing all the special effect stuff and new cutting edge graphics stuff, try to tell something of the game. SELL the game. We want to know if it's innovative, if it's serious enough to 'waste' our time on.

And generally everyone is sick on realistic shooters in present time. There are just too many of 'em. Games today intend to focus in the graphics wise in a game development, which is all wrong. You should concentrate on the design, the fun factor etc etc But I don't say that you don't, because I don't know.. But since you listed all your features in the engine I assume that.

Also, the lack of proffesionallism in one project is a very strong factor for a modeler not even to look deeper into a project. The website is everything and is absolutley vital to a new started game developer. Your site is good, but it's not suited for a serious game studio.

Sorry don't get angry, this is MY opinion, it may differ from yours and everybody else. But I'm trying to help you out.

And if you tell a little bit more about the project I may want to see if I can join because I search for a new project since my last got canceled.

Cheers Mate

[vvg]

Thanks for the feedback, Bear. Information about our game is available on our website. There are even interviews posted in our forums that provide more insight to the game. But, you do make a point that I should mention more of the game in forum posts.

As for realistic shooters, I don't think the gaming industry has yet to touch upon what is possible gameplay wise. I also do not feel that everyone is sick of tactical shooters, but we all hear that mostly from people who do not like realistic shooters in the first place. In any case, each new one that comes out offers something different. People just don't stop going to action movies because they have seen a few and think all the others are the same.

I would like to know why you think our website is not suited for a serious game studio or why we lack professionalism. Tell me what is lacking or what is wrong with it.

Project Shadow
Vae Victis Incorporated
http://www.vaevictisgames.com

[Cyborganics]

I'll take a crack at that question VVG...


____________________
1/ Sloppy screen shots:

- Screen shots are unexciting and show little more than the basic understanding of simple boxy level design. The textures are rather dry and the weapons look like they waste a lot of triangles.

http://www.vaevictisgames.com/screens/action/orange_room_001.sized.jpg

+ My suggestion, take the time to spice up some real eye candy... stuff that makes folks drool. Show some diversity, so far I see just guns, walls and a chopper mesh. It's the kind of thing I would expect from a simple mod – not professional game developers.


____________________
2/ A Mangled mission statement:

"Vae Victis Incorporated is an Illinois corporation founded in March of 2001 as an independent game development company. Consisting of a talented and eclectic team, Vae Victis is striving to bring new gaming experiences to the player. We will push the technology and creative boundaries, but our ultimate goal will always remain the same. That is to entertain the player. "

+ You state that you are striving to bring new gaming experiences but you’re making frankly, just another shooter... sorry, it's not new. All the new guns and all the new toys just doesn’t equate to real market penetration anymore – if it does it’s because of shear advertising and careful product placement. Which is now more about market statistics and calculated publishing strategies combined with an attempt to saturate a market niche at off-season peeks from competing publishers with similar titles.

(This means that you will be on a short timeframe with small paying milestones under a ball busting contract with a publisher that isn’t interested in ‘gaming experiences’ because the only reason for being on their ticket is because you fell into the shooter category. However, they will butter you up with lots of hot air and empty promises of future high-reward titles. In the end your faced with a deadline, a runaway development from feature creep and an art asset schedule that doesn’t add up to the budget so you have to insist everyone works a 65 hour week for months… yeah, I’m reading into it a bit far – but you have to realize people do this. Especially that smart ones.)

+ You say that you will push the technology and creative barriers but specular and real-time bump mapping has been around awhile, you're just providing technical integration within Torque. As for the creative barriers, neither the art nor designs are pushing any limits that can be easily discerned.

+ You never really touch on HOW or really even why you are doing it all. There's no real thought put into it, no clever wit, no spirit. It just feels like an empty cliché opener on a corporate memorandum.

+ What's lacking is inspiration, ingenuity and passion. Your heart might be in the right place but it doesn’t come across, it’s cold and feels like your throwing out words that you think people want to read. Although most people won’t ‘see’ it, they will often feel it and as a result you will likely only entice the desperate, naïve or amateur once you have explored all options with friends and colleagues.


____________________
3/ Tiny message board:

- Lots of small start-ups have these tiny little message boards with little more than a few dozen peeps commenting on this and that. With only a few hundred posts, it makes curiosity for the game seem small – very small... Publishers notice these things ;)

+ Kill it until you have a publisher signed, a marketing strategy worked out and advertising dollars in high gear. At the least keep it out of the publisher’s eye for now - don't give them that lemony fresh feeling.

____________________
4/ Team inexperience or absent bios, Where’s the beef?

- There is nothing to boost the confidence of anyone in the way of experienced leadership or mentorship. Indeed from reading up a bit it seems that you have a project manager / founder that has no professional experience within the interactive industry. This alone makes me nervous even if I was getting paid with a full-time gig.

(Please, understand that I mean no offense.)

+ Explain why you’re the right people for the job. Most professional artists are not going to email you looking for that information and it's something that could turn a busy producer from a publisher away. He's got so many others to look at, help them out and while your at it – give the would be artist that might just donate his / her time by bolstering their conviction with credentials.


____________________
5/ A desperate cry for help...

"Vae Victis Incorporated would like to hear from you, whether it is about publishing, product-placement, or general information"

- Strike that stuff, it's looks second-rate and unprofessional.

+Replace it with a contact email at the bottom of the site


____________________
6/ Site designed by No-name brand interactive.

- Looks like a stenciled out site layout, clean but poorly designed and befuddled. I.e.: The nav bar has a news link but the latest news is always listed just below it. Don't use so many different typefaces... it only distracts and leaves most readers vexed.

+ Get some color in there! Make it look like you guys are really in the business of making games. Alleviate the monotony and make people laugh or give them some serious visuals to make them take pause and admire the artistry.

One gleaming example of keeping it light: http://www.doublefine.com/jobs.htm

A very nice professional game developer site: http://www.elixir-studios.co.uk/homepage.htm


____________________
7/ Slave openings available… Act now!

"We are always interested in talented and passionate individuals who are willing to do what it takes to succeed.
Relocation is not necessary, but strong communication skills and availability required. Applicants must be at least 21 years of age. Positions available are for independent contractors with pay in the form of royalties dependent on successful completion of milestones. Applicants need to provide a resume."

- What ‘does’ it take and what do you define as success? An axiom that just gives me a funny impression when left dangling on it’s own without justification, enticement or definition.

+ Explain the roles and responsibilities clearly and give proper job descriptions. Glance at most of the jobs publicized here: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/jobs_display.php3

+ If it's an art position, say you want to see samples or reels, expound on the quality you expect to see as well as the style and if you are willing to mentor less experienced with internships then express that too.

+ Give the potential candidates more incentives to be a part of the team. The mind-set of making games for the game's sake is synonymous with the emerging industry-wide recognition of the game-god wannabe attitude that's sported by many small-fry startup studios. These places often sport meager earning potential, anomalous design decisions, obliged unpaid overtime (often the product of mediocre planning and or exploitation) and other eccentric behaviors that will inspire most experienced artists to run for the hills.

You don't want to give any doubt to the integrity, professionalism and esteem that any hard working stakeholder will be extended when helping you get Shadow up and rolling. As it stands right now, it feels like another impulsive studio that has a small chance of lucking into some publishing deal but is just as likely to suffer from it’s own tribulations even if the cash comes in. More and more professional artists are looking for stability and professionalism from the companies they get involved with.

Consider this quote…

"We're moving beyond the days of the developer with the rock-star complex striking off to run his own studio, only to find out that running a business is more than putting a ROBOTRON machine in the breakroom and giving employees free soda. Development professionals eyeing their future don't want to be roadies on tour with a rock star, they want a solidly run company that stands a good chance of succeeding and producing quality products."

(Quote of Jennifer Olson in Augusts Game Developer Magazine)


What I’m trying to share with you is that much of the talent pool out there is looking at more than just the love of making games… they are looking for stable, experienced and successful business propositions. If you intend to attract any unpaid authentic talent you are going to have to do better than cliché corporatese, pre-alpha screen shots and promises of royalties. Show them (and the publishers) that you really mean business, show them vision, brains and character.





Oh and quotes like:

"Time to get in with us is now, because when we do have money for salaries, we would be a lot more critical in who we hire. So, why aren't all the modelers who are looking for a break in the game industry getting in contact with us? "

Pushes the panic button on the ones you want to attract the most, as it is in simple terms a pressure tactic that is indicative either of stress, inexperience or exploitive tendencies.

[vvg]

Cyborganics, you made some good points but many of your comments are rather off-topic, delving more into how to look good to publishers. We're interested in how to get the right modelers for us. We've had no shortage of modelers wanting to join our team, but most do not fit with what we are looking for. Here are some responses to your comments.

1) Screenshots:
These are all very early work. We are just now starting on art production. This was mentioned on our website and other sources. As for the textures being dry, I would have to disagree. We are striving for realism, not imaginative textures.


2) About/Mission statement:
You are making an assumption about our game being "just another shooter". There hasn't been enough information for anyone to make such a claim as that. You are also assuming that Shadow is the one and only game we will ever make. Our mission statement is a goal we've set for ourselves.

Realize that we are an independent game developer at this point. No one is telling us how to make our game. A publisher is not in the picture at this point.

I can't think of too many games that have specular mapping, bumpmapping, textures up to 2048x2048, and real-time per-pixel lighting. That would seem like pushing the envelope to me.

As for why we are doing this, I don't think any cheery words of how much we love games and how fun they are (talk about cliché) is going to provide insight to how successful we may be. We'll leave that sort of talk for others.


3) Message Board usage
We're keeping the public boards. Does the sparse usage mean modelers wouldn't be interested?


4) Experience/bios
We may add more to our bios at a later stage. Not important at this point.

Most of us are new to professional game development. Not much more to say in that regard. But we're still going after a year and half and have already experienced a lot of the problems and successes seen in game development.

There is no explaination as to why we are the right people for the job. You have to look at what the group offers in terms of contracts and what the group has accomplished in the time they've been together. You would join our group because you love the work and want to be with a team of individuals who are willing to take it to the finish line.


5) Contact info
We have no shame in what we've got there, so we'll leave it.


6) Website design
You make an assumption that our website is from some package. Our webmaster put the site together, so there is no need to put some "brand" there.

The News link is for Home/News. The "Latest News' is a compilation of project and corporate news. Completely different from Home/News.

We are not interested in making a gaudy, flashy website. It is meant to be content-driven. That means there should be something there for people to read and not just pretty pictures.

If our website is a complete deterrent to a modeler, then they're probably more interested in how cool we look than being a serious developer.


7) Job Descriptions
The job descriptions listed are a pre-screen. If you pass it, inquire for more information.

The phrase, "what it takes to be a success", is meant to challenge the reader to determine what they are willing to do to succeed. We are not proclaiming we are a success, in fact, the phrase is implying that we are not a success but are willing to work towards it and desire others with similar mentality.

When an artist inquires about the position, information about what is to expected is provided. We will not be putting that information on the website. We get a lot of interested modelers. The problem is, most do not have the skill, experience, or character to finish the project or they are looking for a pot of gold. An interested modeler should have no problem in expending some effort to send an email inquiring about the position.

The incentive comes from the information and screenshots at the website and corresponding with the project manager. Money should not be the primary goal.

-----------------------------------------------

I want to thank you again for your comments. I have read and appreciate the time you took to write it out. Some of it I do not agree with, but that does not invalidate anything you've said.

We already have a team that has been working together on the project for a while. We are not interested in just anyone who can model. The problem is finding a modeler who is willing to spend a lot of time on the project, can work with the team and under a project lead, and has enough talent that they can meet our standards, or improve to meet them. All of us have worked extremely hard and sacrificed time and money. If a modeler comes in complaining that their work is more important or takes more time than what the rest of us have done, they'd be out faster than you can spit.

What we hope for are skilled amateur modelers who seem to be crying to join a serious team, to inquire about our project. I see quite a few of these, but so many are jaded by the mod scene that they categorize any startup as just another mod team consisting of immature kids. So the difficulty is reaching those.

Project Shadow
http://www.vaevictisgames.com

[Asorson]

How can you offer to pay people with royalties? Most game companies do not even see royalties for the first few years and are lucky to stay in business off the development money payed to them by publishers. Even if you recieve royalties you'll be lucky to see 5% of the profit after the development is paid back.

I've never understood the "work for free and we'll pay you with royalties" business model in the first place. Logically I don't see how it works.

If you are planning to attract a publisher then they will pay for the development, in that case people wouldn't be working for royalties, they would be working for salary. And if you do not attract a publisher then you're not going to be bringing in any royalties (unless you are independantly wealthy and can finance the millions of dollars required to even bring a game to store shelves, not including the cost of development and advertising). So to me it seems like a catch22.

Basically what you are saying is "Work for us for free, and if all goes well you're reward will be a full time job where you can work for us and we'll pay you". But how is that a reward? Having a job is not a reward. The only people that having a job may be considered a reward to are the people who can not get a paying job in the game industry already. And those people are obviously going to have less skill (that is why they are having trouble finding employment).

So lets recap. You want to make royalties from this game. In order to make royalties the game is going to have to be a big seller and to accomplish that you will need developers who are at least on par with industry standard. However you don't want to pay people. So why would people who have the skills and experience to make this profitable ground breaking game go to work for you, an inexperienced developer with no money?

Know what I mean Vern? You can not have your cake and eat it too. I want a Ferrarri, but I can't afford one. Guess what? I'm not going to get one. If you want to start your own business go get a loan like everyone else. That's why starting your own business is considered so risky. It's not as easy as sitting back and asking people to come work for you for free, you have to make some sacrifices, and I'm not talking about the (I sit in front of my computer all night long working on this project) kind of sacrifices.

[vvg]

Erik Asorson, you are missing the point of our project entirely. We want to make a game, royalties are NOT the primary motive. All of us are working for free in our SPARE time. It is made clear to anyone who joins that there is no guarantee of success. The royalties are there in the event that we do make money, but it should not be the primary reason for joining.

If we can make a living making games, that would be great. But none of us are under the illusion that this will happen overnight or that our game will be the next blockbuster hit.

There is no huge evil corporation that is exploiting anyone. Do you think we would still have members working on the project for more than a year if that were so? Everyone is doing this because they want to get their foot in the industry and because they believe in the project.

If the project fails, the contractors lose some valuable time. The corporation loses the money it invested for lawyer fees, software licenses, servers, etc. But, this is a risk everyone is willing to take.

If I had a nickel for every naysayer maybe we would have enough money for salaries. :)

Project Shadow
http://www.vaevictisgames.com

[vvg]

In case anyone hasn't figured it out by now, we are not asking anyone to join the project and work full-time for free. I would think that goes without saying . . .

All of us are working in our spare time. No one is expected or will be expected to work full-time unless we have the financing to pay for full-time salaries. If that financing never comes through, which is entirely possible, we'll just keep working in our spare time.

Project Shadow
http://www.vaevictisgames.com

[Tottebias]

I guess I would find it interesting to join in. Problem is that I live in Sweden, I study plus have my own small business and I work in Lightwave. If you still think I might be suitable you can reach me by tobiasg@hotmail.com and we will see where we can go from there.

[vvg]

Relocation is not necessary at the moment. It is more difficult having people spread out but we do our best to help facilitate communications by providing email adresses, server for IRC, FTP, and CVS, website forums, developer logs, and soon our own art submission/management application. Even so, we need people who are readily available and are able to collaborate through these mediums.

Thanks for the offer Tobias, but you seem to have plenty of other things to occupy your free time. We really are interested in individuals who can offer more than a casual interest.

Project Shadow
http://www.vaevictisgames.com

[webjunkie]

look m8. *embarressed about his earlier retarted posts on this forum* your site looks like it was put to gether in 5mins by a 12 year old. ppl want to see shots of in-game action. Preview videos and what not. u get the idea. u have a couple of screenshot of weapons. whats the game about. and i couldn't be arsed to stay on your web site to 10 seconds never mind anything else. I mean why shouldn't everyone your asking just make there own games? because the obviously more talented and like have a clue what they r talking about. i apologise for what i saying but u sould like a little school boy persuing his dream of making a videogame and making millions but . . . it ain't gonna happen. Can u even program your game? Why would u ask ppl on a forum to help if u have a website? i'd just post a site url *IF* i had one at the moment telling them everything they needed to know - then if they feel like joining then they canlike post on your forums or something. Stop wasting my time.

[webjunkie]

Then name of the game is retarted - therefore it links in perfectly with your crappy little game.Also its not exactly an origional idea. Change the name or something. and like take the game "Half-Life" for example. Half-life in real life is to do with radiation n stuff right. and like everyone played it so they know what i mean. it ties in with the game n stuff. What do shadows or a shadow or anything related to the word shadow have to do with your game?

[vvg]

That was entertaining Webjunkie. BTW, if you actually read anything on our website, you would realize that Shadow is only a working title.

[webjunkie]

i had to type that - i was bored . . . your site sux and this post just p*sses me off and i want it closed. mine got closed and it wasn't as stupid as this one. grrr.

[magicmycote]

Such anger, such stupidity. I can see why yours got closed..next time you sign up for a board make sure it's for more than thread crapping.

[Cyborganics]

webjunkie: You're not helping anyone here and frankly I don't think anyone is interested.

VVG: Don't let webjunkie stain the valid points of Bear, Erik and I. We are... or rather were trying to point out how you could improve on your efforts and get a better response from people. Not make you feel like garbage.


Please don't confuse webjunkie's opinions for the rest of ours.

[webjunkie]

umm . . . sorry! but why was my thread closed?
there was nothing wrong with it.
i have totally spoiled this thread yet it is not closed.
hmm. . .

[vvg]

I do appreciate the constructive criticisms from Cyborganics and others.

[Palm]

Lol!!.;) Go easy on them!.:cool:
If you havent worked in the industri before you might as well
spend your sparetime working with a team and get some
experience. Getting used to produce after a designed concept
and so on.:) Even if the chances of succses is about 0.5%.;)
But hey, that is just my opinion. Don't come gunning after me now.

Cheers!
:beer:

[webjunkie]

sorry buddy. i was just stressed.

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