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Pyro2301
08-02-2002, 05:27 PM
This is some pretty amazing stuff. The clip speaks for itself.


http://www.scanline.de/checkintodesaster/

:buttrock:

-Victor

Grey
08-02-2002, 06:16 PM
:eek:

:thumbsup:

KEKS
08-02-2002, 06:16 PM
so this was done with max plugin?

Pyro2301
08-02-2002, 06:20 PM
Seems to be inhouse stuff...some of it seems Maya-esque so I'm betting it's built around that app. Any chance that 3D Festival will do a story on it and maybe get more info or possibly an interview? *cough* (hint) *cough*


-Victor

PIXAR
08-02-2002, 06:35 PM
thinking particles is so nice, damn nice:beer:

Grey
08-02-2002, 06:36 PM
Pyrocluster I know as a Cinema4D plugin...

KEKS
08-02-2002, 06:57 PM
hmm maya? I think thinking particles is max stuff and i know its rule based

Grey
08-02-2002, 06:59 PM
This is the only thinking particles I've ever seen:
http://maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/r8/c4dr8_think_particles_e.html

KEKS
08-02-2002, 07:04 PM
yeah it is all max
here is the link
http://www.cebas.com/products/products.asp?UD=10-7888-33-788&PID=15

PIXAR
08-02-2002, 07:04 PM
http://www.cebas.com/products/products.asp?UD=10-7888-33-788&PID=15


damn you win ;-)

Grey
08-02-2002, 07:09 PM
interesting that if they mention it's a Max plugin on their site, it's not easy to find...

I wonder why that is...

KEKS
08-02-2002, 07:16 PM
i have video tutorials for thinking particles ... its amazing its much more user friendly and you saw what you can do. Better then maya because it doesnt work on time but on rules and not events

Grey
08-02-2002, 07:31 PM
connecting it to such things as the position of a wind operation or proximity of a solid object rather than a keyframe... (I finally get what non-linear means...) :D

KEKS
08-02-2002, 07:37 PM
:) yeah dont you just love that :0

visualboo
08-02-2002, 08:58 PM
Yeah, thinking particles and pyrocluster are both available for Max. Thinking particles kinda has a unweildy interface if you ask me though. :shrug:

Awsome nonetheless

[edit] KEKS: where in chi-town are you?

Joel Hooks
08-02-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by visualboo
Thinking particles kinda has a unweildy interface if you ask me though. :shrug:


It is an odd interface, but the possibilities with it are endless. Pyrocluster is looking great, I'd love to be able to dig through that scene.

kdub
08-02-2002, 09:11 PM
Unbeleivable Pyro right there. I believe it is max, some times it's hard to beleive that such amazing stuff could come from a program that is famous for it's "less than good" renderer. Thinking Particles is for max, and also the fact that they are scanline.de and max is scanline and all, and if it were inhouse i don't think they would use or even be able to use that many plugs. Good stuff, still aint gunna bean WC3 cinematics. :)

visualboo
08-02-2002, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by lowdown


It is an odd interface, but the possibilities with it are endless.

Yes indeed :)

Pyro2301
08-02-2002, 09:35 PM
Well I'm surprised it was MAX but I don't know why. I think it's great that packages like MAX(with some plugins) can totally create stuff that can compete or exceed the quality of higer end apps. Well I was pleasantly surprised :thumbsup:


About the WarCraft 3 CG...I love Blizzards cinematics and the quality this time was awesome but.... that cinematic with the city being destroyed that was made of dust/smoke/whatever was really badly composited in. The shadows that should have been cast on the dust were missing and in one shot the figer just cut off into the dust rather then blending in. By itself the dust was awesome...it just looked awful when composited. They more than made up for it in the cinematic with Thrall in the cave :p

-Victor

cgSquad
08-02-2002, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by visualboo
[B]Thinking particles kinda has a unweildy interface if you ask me though. :shrug:

yes but i think its workflow is similar to houdini. Houdini is no doubt very advance but thinking particles is the most advance solution for max particles.

digitaldamage
08-02-2002, 10:13 PM
I think you can almost surely say it is indeed Max.
Last year, i visited the so called "Discreet Usermeeting" and Scanline presented a making of "Wave of Death" (see webpage).
The scenery was completely created in max and this was the first time thinking particles were used in a production. Scanline worked together with cebas to complete the program as they got beta versions from cebas. All IIRC as it is a year ago ;)
So it is very likely that they used max again.

Raji
08-02-2002, 10:46 PM
well from the looks of this animation, I'll bet some director will now say "okay someone has animated a plane crashing, now let's animate 9/11 for the world to watch all over again".

I was really amazed at the quality of the animation for this sequence. I mean wow!:eek: But if someone makes a movie out of the infamous 9/11, then i hope they make it as meaningful as that animation was...

Am I the only one to have made the connection between this animation and what happened in New York?

Great work.

Raji

Markus
08-02-2002, 10:49 PM
They DID use max. I know it for sure. Thinking particles was developed by cebas together with scanline. Everything you see comes out of max. Why not? Max is often underestimated. This company did a lot of high end movie stuff with max and their own inhouse software. It depends on the artists who know how to use their tools.

Markus

urgaffel
08-02-2002, 11:31 PM
Raji, what are you talking about? That clip is from a movie called Check-in To Disaster. I *think* it's about a testflight that goes horribly wrong. Not 100% sure though. It was showed on the Siggraph Electronic Theater.

Raji
08-02-2002, 11:45 PM
urgaffel, no i know that. This animation isn't related to what happened in NY.

I guess I'm just saying that this will definitely increase directors' desires to create a 9/11 movie.

maybe i'm just being dumb. :D :bounce:

Ever since the attack, i've always thought something like this:

"people are furious now, but they'll love the movie when it comes out".

I just think it's ironic how quickly things change...

and I hate how I get so serious and annoying!!! I'd better shut up now. :D

Raji

KEKS
08-02-2002, 11:53 PM
Yeah Max is great program when combined with great plugins. Remember some of these plugins are more powerfull then the max itself :)
But if I had to choose
it would be XSI then Max then Maya

Thinking particles for me are better then Hudini particles... you just need to know how to use them and think logically.

Mauritius
08-03-2002, 12:45 AM
This clip is from a tv movie named 'Check into Desaster' that aired on German national TV station 'Pro 7' some time ago.

.mm

thinKer3D
08-03-2002, 01:38 AM
:: amazine. Max will continue to amaze many of us. The scanline renderer can hold it's own when it comes to delivering the final product. Max 6 should take it a step or two further ::

:buttrock:

urgaffel
08-03-2002, 02:36 AM
Ah ok. It's just that it sounded like "Oh no! A planecrash on film! Now everyone is going to associate it with/make movies about 9/11!"

And yes, you need to stop being so annoying ;)

(j/k)

Jim Lammers
08-03-2002, 02:41 AM
there's a bunch of info about this effect on our front page:
http://www.trinity3d.com/ under "Thinking Particles Scares young germans".

Also there's a full PDF brochure on this plane crash effect and thinking particles at http://www.trinity3d.com/productinfo/siggraph2002/Sig_Brochures.shtml

Also, cebas has a full description of the product at
http://www.cebas.com/products/products.asp?UD=10-7888-33-788&PID=15

hope this helps -

Jim

Andre Goersch
08-03-2002, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by Raji
(...)I guess I'm just saying that this will definitely increase directors' desires to create a 9/11 movie.

First of all, let me excuse myself for being so off topic, but since this was brought up, I think you guys could want to know this...

This is a story published on a brazilian movie magazine called SET.

Eleven men and a September Day

A group of eleven moviemakers was formed at the last Cannes Festival for a project about the terrorist attacks on 09/11. 11'09''01 will be a feature divided in eleven different episodes, each one under the command of a different director, so on their ideas as on their nationalities. Each one will have carte blanche, but inside the theme of the tragedy and its results, and keeping the symbolic lenght of 11 minutes, 9 seconds and one movie frame. The creator of the homage, the french Alain Brigand, invited Ken Loach (England), Claude Lelouch (France), Denis Tanovic (Bosnia), Sean Penn (USA), Shohei Imamura (Japan), Amos Gitaï (Israel), Samira Makhmalbaf (Iran), Yousset Chahine (Egypt), Idrissa Quedraogo (Burkina Faso), Mira Nair (India) and Alejandro Inarritu (Mexico).

Please forgive any translation errors... :)

urgaffel
08-03-2002, 05:21 AM
Oh yeah, I heard/read something about that a while ago. Had forgotten all about it. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with...

Grey
08-03-2002, 10:41 AM
<----will be interested to see who takes what side...

Xilica
08-04-2002, 12:35 AM
This is a very very cool piece of artwork concerning airplanes. I have watched this over 50 times and it doesn't get old. :thumbsup:

DotPainter
08-04-2002, 11:30 AM
Yes it is an excellent piece of work!

However, why are so many attributing the quality of the work to 3DS MAX. It is NOT 3DS MAX that is responsible for the shot it is the plugin. To say "I can't believe this is MAX" is to deny that it was done by a plugin, not MAX. CEBAS makes one of the best particle systems for smoke and fire... PERIOD. I had the pyrocluster plugin for Truespace and I could make the most realistic clouds and fire in no time with it. So would I say, "Wow I cant believe it is Truespace?", of course not. The exact same effects would have been achieved if the thinking particles plugin was used in Cinema 4D, Truespace or Maya. Now there may have been some workflow advantages that came with using MAX, but don't give it credit it doesn't deserve......

Sure would like to see thinking particles for LW!!

BTW, I thought most people knew this, but some of the best plugins on the planet are available for MAX. If you could afford all of these plugins you could easily equal or surpass the "high end" apps. After all, MAX is and has always been an app designed to be used with plugins :)

Ronski
08-04-2002, 11:37 AM
I was part of the beta testing team for Thinking Particles & it is a very powerful tool, I don't think I ever really managed to fully explore it's power but they guys at Scanline certainly have! :scream: Anyone else notice the other really cool thing on that clip is the landscape generation, adding just enough polys where they need it. It'd be great if someone from Scanline was reading & could post their insights to the development of those shots?

I freelanced at Mill Film Shepperton a year ago & we also used it on the much delayed Eddie Murphy film Pluto Nash, it was used it for dust generation on around 70 shots during a car chase on the moon. The one feature I really liked was the motion inheritance, where you could influence particle movement with the rotation of another object, gave you excellent control.

Cheers,
Kieron

Katachi
08-04-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by xilica
The exact same effects would have been achieved if the thinking particles plugin was used in Cinema 4D, Truespace or Maya

Well definitely not the same effects, but similar. At the end, all that counts are the skills of the artist. If they do crap, no Thinking Particles will help!

And yes, this was definetly made with 3DS Max because Thinking Particles is only available for 3DS YET!! With the Release of Cinema 4D R8 in autumn of 2002 there will be Thinking Particles integrated in Cinema 4D! They have a totaly new node-system that works very close with TP. Cebas and Maxon stated that it is even better to use because of the new node system than it is actually in MAX. So cinema 4D users are saving 1300 $ for TP :)

And with Pyrocluster being also a part of Cinema 4D in Release 8 (also fully integrated) it is even more powerful. It was worth waiting for R8 for me :applause:

But back to the topic: This is just an A-grade work!

Grey
08-04-2002, 10:06 PM
Agreed, there is no way you can credit the plugins without first giving credit to those who did this animation.

dodgy
08-05-2002, 01:00 AM
CID was made in MAX using Pyrocluster plugin which is part of
Pro Optics Suite plugin set for MAX (by cebas) and rendered with finalRender renderer (also by cebas).

both, Scanline (creator of animation) and cebas Computer GmbH are located in Germany

more inf:

http://www.finalrender.com

http://www.cebas.com/products/products.asp?UD=10-7888-33-788&PID=16

red_oddity
08-05-2002, 09:38 AM
Wow, i must say i'm impressed, i see Max has come a very long way (isn't this what Blizzard used on their WC3 cinematics?)

Katachi
08-05-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by dodgy
CID was made in MAX using Pyrocluster plugin which is part of
Pro Optics Suite plugin set for MAX (by cebas)

Yes, of course. But Pyrocluster is only used for volume calculation. The emitter as you can see in the trailer, were created by Thinking Particles.

We donīt want some people to be confused do we? :D

thinKer3D
08-05-2002, 12:33 PM
::

DotPainter, so true. I completely agree with you. Personally, I think default renderers in a any 3D package suck at many levels. 3ds max 5 seem to be changing its end of this reputation.

Also, I could nerver seem to understand why people would say things like "max and high-end packages". Ummm.....max is a high-end package!!! Not to mention its unsurpassed end-to-end workflow along with a host of renderer that seem to have easily out done Pixar Renderer. From Brazil to finalRender, you have all you need for film and HD work. And yes, the best plugins are only available for max!

How about the myth that max can't handle extreme polygon counts? I say **hahahahaha** to that. finalRender reached a world record of an insane render count of 144 Trillion polygons done in max. My friends that Trillion with a big f------- "T"!

http://www.finalrender.com/finalrender/default.htm

:buttrock:

::

Katachi
08-05-2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by thinKer3D
::

DotPainter, so true. I completely agree with you. Personally, I think default renderers in a any 3D package suck at many levels.

Have a look at Cinema 4Ds Renderer or SoftImages Renderer. Both integrated into the application and bring fantastic Results! Way better than Maxs Renderer. And way faster!

3ds max 5 seem to be changing its end of this reputation.

Hopefully.

Also, I could nerver seem to understand why people would say things like "max and high-end packages". Ummm.....max is a high-end package!!!


Yep, thatīs definetly true. Max is a high-end package for sure.


Not to mention its unsurpassed end-to-end workflow


You are kidding, aintīt you?


along with a host of renderer that seem to have easily out done Pixar Renderer. From Brazil to finalRender, you have all you need for film and HD work. And yes, the best plugins are only available for max!


Yep, the renderers are really a big plus for MAX, but itīs not a MAX thing! So MAX itself is very limited without the external renderers. In other Packages you got very good built-in Renderers!

But MAX has the advantage of million of plugins available for the package.


How about the myth that max can't handle extreme polygon counts? I say **hahahahaha** to that. finalRender reached a world record of an insane render count of 144 Trillion polygons done in max. My friends that Trillion with a big f------- "T"!

http://www.finalrender.com/finalrender/default.htm

:buttrock:
::

Well, again. This is not MAX handling these Trillion polygons, it is Cebas Final Render who does it. So you have to be proud of the Renderengine FinalRender and not of MAX. :shame:

But to summarize. MAX is a professional high-end package with very good possibilites. The workflow however sucks! The popup menues only slow down your workflow. The Interface isnīt sorted in any way compared to other packages. And the own rendermachine isnīt good either. (hopefully in 5 this will change)

Just my 2 Cent...

Cheers

harmonic01
08-05-2002, 07:25 PM
Designer, maybe you're not used to max interface. I personally find it very easy to navigate and would choose max ui over maya anytime. What pop up menus are you talking about? And to say that workflow sux, is subjective i think.

"In other Packages you got very good built-in Renderers!" like Maya, right? :-)


Ok, ok, I'm bias. :-))))

Katachi
08-05-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by harmonic01
Designer, maybe you're not used to max interface.

You are completely right! But why am I not used to it? Because the interface is just awful! Couldnīt get into it after 1 Month! Not very intuitive.


I personally find it very easy to navigate and would choose max ui over maya anytime. What pop up menus are you talking about?


right button menus in the editor


And to say that workflow sux, is subjective i think.


Really? Of course it is subjective, there is nothing that is not subjective. Actually the word objective could be erased out of any vocabulary, because there is nothing that can be objective. Ok enough to this point :thumbsup:
but, yes. It is my opinion. How many apps did you check until now? Donīt want to offense anyone who likes MAX and the way it is built, but I know a lotta people who "hate" the interface.

Of course, after a certain time you get used to every application but some interfaces are hard to deal with and others are more intuitive. And MAX definetly does not belong to those second ones.


"In other Packages you got very good built-in Renderers!" like Maya, right? :-)
Ok, ok, I'm bias. :-))))

hehe, Maya. Well ok, there are exceptions :applause:

No, I was talking SoftImage and Cinema 4D, who got really got Renderers as I already quoted in another posting above this one.

Cheers

harmonic01
08-05-2002, 07:54 PM
Well, I guess whatever works for you. :-) everybody's different.

Yep, Lightwave and Softimage got some awesome engines, but I'm still a firm believer that max scanline can acheave good results.

urgaffel
08-05-2002, 08:33 PM
Max scanline can achieve outstanding results, just as the maya renderer can achieve outstanding results. It's all a matter of knowing how to tweak the scene and renderer to get that extra little something.

As for UIs... Don't start. Everybody likes their uis differently, there's no use in discussing it. For example, I like XSI and Max, but detest LW and Maya. I could then spend a couple of hours arguing for/against y'all, but what good would it be?

Just as a footnote, I'd really like to know which program doesn't have pop up menus. I know Max, XSI and Maya does and I think LW does too...

I've put all the tools I need in the quad menu or bound to shortcuts, which is what works for me. Different strokes for different folks.

Well, again. This is not MAX handling these Trillion polygons, it is Cebas Final Render who does it. So you have to be proud of the Renderengine FinalRender and not of MAX.

True, but max has to load the scene :) (j/k)

playmesumch00ns
08-06-2002, 10:06 AM
Ayayayayay what is the point? Who cares what software you use?

You may have Max and 3000 plugins , or maybe you got mental ray plugged into XSI, or maybe even you're struggling along with maya. Spare a thought for the guys at pixar: if they want to render it they've got to write it themselves, they can't buy a plugin or download it off the net.

It's probably been said a thousand times but I'll say it again: it's the artist that makes a picture, not a renderer.

Personally I am getting sick of seeing yet another dimly-lit image. What's the point of paying Ģ100000000 for the latest-greatest-super-duperest-full-global-illumination-monte-carlo-final-gathering-radiosity-caustics-sub-surface renderer when all you can do with it is make sorta-photoreal images that just look like they've been photographed on a miserable cloudy day?!

Down with global illumination! Down with radiosity! long live traditional lighting techniques! long live NPR!

And all renderers are scanline renderers

Enough rant i'm tired. Back to work

Grey
08-06-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by harmonic01
Yep, Lightwave and Softimage got some awesome engines, but I'm still a firm believer that max scanline can acheave good results.

of course it can... :D

But the slow as molassess time factor is what makes the Max render engine counterproductive. If Max had a decent render engine, Brazill would never have got off the ground.

frog
08-06-2002, 08:50 PM
But the slow as molassess time factor is what makes the Max render engine counterproductive

Er, Max's scanline is fast as hell. Brazil however ain't...

the issue with Max's renderer has never been it's speed, but rather a perceived lack of quality.

Aaron Moore
08-06-2002, 11:23 PM
I saw scanline at the 01 siggraph and herd their talk on that bridge collapse thing. From what I heard, they used in house developed software to create the effect in Maya. Seems as though the plugin was then commericialized by cebas... though this is just the impression i got.

Anyhow, I'd love to see some more Thinking Particles examples... and prehaps some tutorials or somthing so I can see how the interface works... its got a steep price tag.

Aaron Moore
08-06-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by frog


Er, Max's scanline is fast as hell. Brazil however ain't...

the issue with Max's renderer has never been it's speed, but rather a perceived lack of quality.

I'd like to argue otherwise... I've seen some awesome stuff done with just the maxscanline... it all depends, once again, on the artists... I think the tools are good enought that they can be used to create very cool imagery.

However I'm not saying that GI is bad... It is nice to have GI renderes... however I don't think GI is the key to creating cool imagery.

frog
08-07-2002, 08:43 AM
Agreed, the scanline on it's own can produce excellent results, with a little work and knowledge :)

My point was that the complaint usually laid against max's renderer is not it's lack of speed.

Grey
08-08-2002, 05:55 AM
sorry guys, the word was that it was Max's native raytrace engine that was so slow people bought bryce for speed.

forgive my error.

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