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View Full Version : Frightened Knight, Laverdet (3D)


celmar
08-02-2004, 07:52 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallerycrits/83140/83140_1091472735_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallerycrits/83140/83140_1091472735.jpg)

Title: Frightened Knight
Name: Laverdet
Country: France
Software: Zbrush2

hello!... modelled in rhino and zbrush 2, and rendered in zbrush2... I was interested by the obvious deplacement of the composition, wich is at the frontier of composition's mistake, and, (I think) works anyway... it's always fun to play with aesthtic concepts, such as dynamic symmetry, and lettering-like composition, to "disturb" these concepts and goe on something different:!...ps/ I hope I am understandable, because I speak a so poor english, and loose my dictionary!... so I try to talk with a little dozen of words, which is contracting the sense, I'm afraid! maybe there is french on this site, and it can be in different langage?...

Monji
08-02-2004, 09:33 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallerycrits/83140/83140_1091472735_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallerycrits/83140/83140_1091472735.jpg)

Title: Frightened Knight
Name: Laverdet
Country: France
Software: Zbrush2

hello!... modelled in rhino and zbrush 2, and rendered in zbrush2... I was interested by the obvious deplacement of the composition, wich is at the frontier of composition's mistake, and, (I think) works anyway... it's always fun to play with aesthtic concepts, such as dynamic symmetry, and lettering-like composition, to "disturb" these concepts and goe on something different:!...ps/ I hope I am understandable, because I speak a so poor english, and loose my dictionary!... so I try to talk with a little dozen of words, which is contracting the sense, I'm afraid! maybe there is french on this site, and it can be in different langage?... Don't worry ,
i understood what you meant !
And it looks awesome ! On this site there are so many people who are VERY good , that's why i can't give much critique , because i am NOT that good YET ..

LowEndFrequency
08-02-2004, 09:56 PM
simply awsome. only crit would be that the specular on the metal is a bit high. other than that it's perfect. can we see a wireframe?

BartokDesign
08-02-2004, 10:16 PM
Yeah , awesome work but i think the metal and chains are not so real like the guy.....

4 stars from me:bounce:

Capel
08-02-2004, 10:57 PM
wow, love the face... one of the most realistic i've seen. But yeah, the chains mainly could look more real.... four stars, for sure though...

celmar
08-02-2004, 11:17 PM
thank you for your comments!.. and yes, there is a trade off, around the render engine of zbrush: it allows an incredible level of precision and detail,which is perfect for pôrtrait, but don't allow hdri or environnement mapwhich is bad for metal... here, it's a pure zbruish render... more and mopre, on that sort of picture, I use to render once in zbrush, and once in carrara, where hdri is very fine rendered; then "mix" in phototshop; a little bory, but by the "direct application" of the color allopwed by zbrush, you can really achieve a unique photorealism...I join the "white" step, before coloring, in zbrush... it's not wireframe, but you can have an idea of the modelling... I'll find the 3d tools for wireframe...

Texamosix
08-03-2004, 03:15 AM
Very realistic face... but probably too realistic for the rest of the render. I think you should cut down the specular lighting on the armor and improve the DOF. Maybe darken the background some too.

Also, the angle of the knight's head bugs me. It looks like his forehead is tiny or has been cut off. Maybe you should try angling it foward or something.

BESTrin
08-03-2004, 04:45 AM
i still can bliev the face is not a photo. even in zbrush. The fact that its a zbrush render shows though on the metal but the face is perfect. I would sugest more focus on the face maybe some radial blur (aslo sugests fear) and have the camera allitle tighter on his face. The problem is that there is specular in zbrush bit no reflection which would be a must for realistic metal.

i still cant get over that face. The face is so good and... I just still cant get over it. its too good. wow the skin around the eyes just has that limpness and the color. How was the hair achieved. Great work.

vlad74
08-03-2004, 03:05 PM
very realistic face. Did you use a reference.

INTiE
08-03-2004, 08:43 PM
I agree with others - very realistic face, not very realistic armour. But don't get me wrong - I like it a lot.

HenningK
08-03-2004, 10:03 PM
Geesh! That head is so real it looks out of place. Maybe some lighting attention would help convince me that the head and the armor are part of the same image. A rim-light definitely could help-- so you'd get nice bright highlights on his left side.
hen

coolhillstone
08-04-2004, 06:23 AM
wonderful face!!!
I think the face is super much better than the armour~
good job.

shakes
08-04-2004, 06:41 AM
that face is so realistic-one of the best I've seen..just can't understand why the armour
doesn't quite match the realism in the render, but then I have no idea how Z-Brush works.
fantastic job otherwise

Cyrused
08-04-2004, 07:16 AM
the face looks superb. only thing is the metal tho. otherwise fantastic.

celmar
08-04-2004, 07:49 AM
effectively, you make me the envy (? not sure of the world) to re- render it in a different manner... once again: the way you apply the color on the geometry, in zbrush 2, allows a so precise position, and so "saturated", that render portraits, or organic pieces, is perfect... but on metal, you have, more or less, what you have in other softs if you desabbled Hdri, or environnement map... it's why I 've choosen in that picture a black painted armour, in the 16eme century style, which didn't reflected too much...it's always the same trade off with the render options of zbrush, which are the best on some "things" like mainly organic, and far less appropriate for metal, ar anything with reflection, transparence or refraction!...

DimitrisLiatsos
08-04-2004, 11:17 AM
Fantastic, artistic...man i love this one. Look at his face ....he is so ...Bravo!!!

spm
08-04-2004, 11:28 AM
could you post a mesh of the face in the exact same position? ive never seen a human face in 3d actually carrying emotion like that... would be nice to see that its "real". no offense :)

gjpetch
08-04-2004, 11:35 AM
The face appears to be a photograph, but it still makes for a pretty nice image......

mmhnemo
08-04-2004, 12:37 PM
Wonderful work Marcel. The Rockwellian quality of your images is always a pleasure to behold.
You are my No.1 source of inspiration these days :)

For critique - as pointed out - try another compositing with a reworked armor.

:thumbsup:

rolhionjs
08-04-2004, 12:55 PM
Fantastic work Marcel !!! :thumbsup:


Le rendu est vraiment excellent ! Chapo bas msieur :)
Excellente continuation !

guardonduty
08-04-2004, 01:01 PM
HI:


Good Work. I'm no expert but it's safe to say that if you are fight battles in a "HOT" "METAL" suit in a "DIRTY" "BLOODY" environment for weeks on end with no exposure to the sun your skin will look like that knight looks.

Kanga
08-04-2004, 01:39 PM
This is the most realistic face I have seen yet!

I don't have a problem with the material you used for the armour.
I like the asymetry and the composition is very powerfull. Also a strong graphic element.

Marvelous :thumbsup:
Kanga

celmar
08-04-2004, 02:06 PM
Thank you for all your warm comments!... i'm joining a wireframe of the head, but for people who don't know zbrush, it does'nt mean a lot: once you have the initial mesh, you "snapshot" that mesh on the z canvas, and then it's so called 2,5... like 3d, with limitations particularly on reflections, but you can paint directly geometry, like bump but real, and color, and geometry ON color, for example here to get more on a wrinkle... anyway, here is the initial mesh... and ofg course, it's after textured with photo elements, linked by paint, before to be applied on the geometry, as texture!...

Gal
08-04-2004, 02:34 PM
it is so obvious the face is an image mapped on the mesh he created in zbrush.
if u compare the model and the face rendered u can see it on the lips for example, the darkening is of the mesh righ on the lip/jaw which comes from the model+lighting. it would never happen on the face if it was 3d. so many areas dont match, the face is simple mapped/projected or even composited on that model.

so disregarding the face, it's a nice image.

celmar
08-04-2004, 02:41 PM
well gal,it's difficult to understand that: if you see all my post on that forum, since the machine flesh challenge, it's as you say obvious that I texture with photo, and of course procedural... in other words, I don't like at all that sort of "pinky pig" which is the procedural skin, but always usse to map paint and part of photos on my model... for ewxample, on the machine flesh challenge, all the heads are mapped with the same starting photos, and as you can see, thje heads are very different... here, the same face and profil hi res photo has been used on one of my precedent post ,the artmour with a lot of arms... the only point is: WHEN YOU ARE IN ZBRUSH FINAL, you aren't in 3d; but in 2,5... you can't turn around... it's diffrent, but professionnally very powerful, and it's all my goal!...

celmar
08-04-2004, 02:59 PM
just to be clear... it's effectively a painted -textured image, which is mapped on the geometry., the face and the armour., for the little rust, etc.... what is called a texture, when not procedural... I join some color renders, to explain...

JZA
08-04-2004, 03:01 PM
Still Gal has a good point.

The face quality is pretty much only due to the photograph; the ZBrush geometry really isn't that hot imho. The composition is 'lacking' at best, making this a rather sub-standard work for being plugged on the front page.

Leonard
08-04-2004, 03:15 PM
this a rather sub-standard work for being plugged on the front page.
Um. Just to clarify, we plug stuff on the front page to draw attention to it and for no other reason. It doesn't need to be ultimately stellar "EXPOSE' cover quality" to be on the front page, it just needs to be at a standard (totally subjective) where we think it'll be cool to draw attention to it and get critique. So please don't shoot us for plugging it.

Personally, I like it, think it's very cool, and it could do with constructive critique to make it better.

Leo

smileyPotato
08-04-2004, 03:27 PM
its a very good use of zbrush, but i cannot for the life of me figure out the body type of this thing. the older renders help a lot in this, but where's his neck? are those his shoulders? what happened to the top of his head? i've been staring at this for 10 minutes and all i get from it is that its like a photo of a guy's face, with a quick lasso cut and feather around it, placed on top of some grimy armor (it looks like the ads you see in the cold stone ice creamery (if anyone knows what im talking about you get some bonus points)).

basically, i think changing the lighting on the face so that it can feel as if its actually in the armor and not on top of it, will help resolve my confusion with this piece.

Kanga
08-04-2004, 03:33 PM
Z-Brush is a pretty powerfull application and everyone uses it their own way. I am struggeling with it at the moment but the advantages are already obvious. Two opposite extremes are on the one hand to make a detailed mesh in another package, as detailed as you would normally and then move it into ZB to add stunning depth, or take a z-sphere and map it.

The advantages to the first approach is that you can skin, morph, fully animate your model with a high level of detail.

For me it's whatever gets the job done, if you only want a still then thats ok too. I personally love the composition and feel it has as much right to be on the front page as any other 2D, 3D piece of art.

Greetings Kanga

kromekat
08-04-2004, 03:34 PM
that face is so realistic-one of the best I've seen..just can't understand why the armour
doesn't quite match the realism in the render, but then I have no idea how Z-Brush works.
fantastic job otherwise

Well surely that is because the face texture is a photographic one mapped to the mesh head whereas the metal texture is more porcedural!?

Either way looks great!!, but the face is so photographic that it looks like you pasted it in rather than applied it to the wonderful mesh underneath it! - ie; the mesh work becomes lost somehow.

JZA
08-04-2004, 03:38 PM
Leonard>>

By no means am I shooting anyone for plugging it. I simply feel it's not as good as the 'average' work you plug (although that term hardly applies).

My lack of constructive critique is fueled partly by the fact that author seemed to enjoy the fact that at least some people assumed the an extremely complex skin shader was used for the face, with SSS and whatnot, while he should have pointed out it his use of photographic material once people started discussing the difference in quality between the face and the rest of the scene.

kromekat
08-04-2004, 03:53 PM
Ah well there you go then! - I was replying to the first page - didn't know it had since been stated that it was a photograph - I was having a hard time grasping why some apparently missed that fact in the first place.

Anyway - deserves a plug on the front page as much as anything else here IMO - surely this place doesn't have to be as elitist and anal as some apparently perceive it to be upon their first visit!? :)

Dutchman
08-04-2004, 04:23 PM
WOW, awesome job! ZBrush really rulez in combination with good skills as that of you! :thumbsup:

Every time I'm really surprised of the quality of that renderer in ZBrush; just AWESOME! I also have ZB and now I see that image, I really NEED to go ZBrushing....!!! :) ;)

Good luck :)

roguenroll
08-04-2004, 04:25 PM
Still Gal has a good point.

The face quality is pretty much only due to the photograph; the ZBrush geometry really isn't that hot imho. The composition is 'lacking' at best, making this a rather sub-standard work for being plugged on the front page.
thats pretty lame, im disapponited in that kinda of response here.

Gal
08-04-2004, 04:42 PM
cemar i'm a zbrush user my self, so i understand perfectly what you've done.
i just wanted to clear that issue to the people here who thought the face was all cg made by you which it isnt.
saying that, regardless of the technique that final image as an image ..is a nice image.
but just be aware we can not really admire the piece because the face is a mapped image.
either 3d mapped or "painted" layered photo on the model after u've flattened it to a 2d canvas.

so that's why the piece looks weaker in.. appreciation. that's all.

spm
08-04-2004, 04:48 PM
im satisfied with the "mesh". its still 3d although the photo makes the job, but as far as i know its called a texture so why not.

great work achieving the best emotion ive ever seen on a cg-face! :)

guardonduty
08-04-2004, 05:32 PM
Everyone thinks the image is an actual face textured on to the frame. Well what do you think of this image taken grom the Lightwave board. Is it fake or real? I will post the actual link to this thread after a few replies. Hint. The creator of this piece of work actually made a request to the moderator to shut the thread down because the "INFERIORS" said it was a photo.http://users.skynet.be/fa008785/BM_CMap_000.jpg

p_lee_davis
08-04-2004, 05:33 PM
.

The face quality is pretty much only due to the photograph; the ZBrush geometry really isn't that hot imho. The composition is 'lacking' at best, making this a rather sub-standard work for being plugged on the front page.
Thank god nothing has ever been plugged from http://www.jessevandijk.nl imho.

spm
08-04-2004, 05:33 PM
that pic shouts CG all over... cant believe ppl would call it a photo.

celmar
08-04-2004, 05:41 PM
Leonard>>

By no means am I shooting anyone for plugging it. I simply feel it's not as good as the 'average' work you plug (although that term hardly applies).

face, with SSS and whatnot, while he should have pointed out it his use of photoMy lack of constructive critique is fueled partly by the fact that author seemed to enjoy the fact that at least some people assumed the an extremely complex skin shader was used for the graphic material once people started discussing the difference in quality between the face and the rest of the scene. I,m extremely curious of what place I've enjoyed ideas of subscattering or things like that... maybe my poor english has create mistakes, would be very more simple in french, of course... Nothing is procedural, here, because more of the time, even in my work in traditionnal soft like carrara, I don't use a lot procedural, but nearly always uv mapping... I understand that the way zbrush use the 2,5, wich is not 3d, and not 2d, is difficult to understand, and of course different of traditionnal 3d... but the result is like 3d, as you can see in the color variations attached: I know very little about digital, having just used computers since 2 years, but it seems obvious that it's difficult to change lights, and cast shadows, on a 2d plane... maybe all that constructive critics can explain how they do, in 2d... I think it is not friendly at all, to say things like I have on that post... I,ve posted pure 3d renders, and I think I've explained clearly in what zbrush was different !.. but as I earn my life saling copyrights on my pictures, I can just add that it is a terrific powerful program, to produce professional results, too... oh, and let me add something: we are NOT in schoolyard, and there are not rules of the game... the only thing, is to say honestly how parts of the pictutres was done; it's what I've done...

celmar
08-04-2004, 06:15 PM
ok... maybe it's more constructive to explain how zbrush works... color, photo,or paint, is attached at thje geometry... nothing fancy, here; but you can attach geometry, not bump, but write "wrinkles" and so on, too... and come back to color, and so on... once that's done, you can stay in 3d, and export, or snapshot on the canvas, and it becomes 2,5... it means that it don't turn now, but you can change the geometry, anyway... of course, the texture, if you change drastically the geometry, will be affected, like all the honest textures... but she follow the geometry... it's what is so attractive with z, the extremely fast of building a picture... but of course, nothing is perfect: when talking reflection, or refraction, other softs are best to render... I join a picture of that poor knight, who seems to create a real hurricane... (more than mask, one of my precedent post, where it's exactly the same face which texture the mask than that knight, whith little "hair" around the mouth, and I like it much more, for poetry, but didn't make such a hit!)... on the doc join, I've pulled the geometry... the texture does what she can to follow, but without great success... anyway, as you can see , for a 2d photo, it's really performing!...

celmar
08-04-2004, 08:07 PM
well, to finish on what the jazzmen call a bluenote, something with a little sadness, and laugh too, I've rendered the mesh, WITHOUT any texture, (except the eyes, ok), in carrara... just to show the modelling... and please, don't misunderstand me! I don't intend to say that it is a fine modelling... if I rememlber well, it was very "sketchy" , when I diid it, something about one hour, or less... I did'nt think that it will be so scrutated... !!! as I goes on vacations tomorrow, if that poor guy is again attacked , he will have to stay alone... and as I said, he is frightened, and, without me, don't talk...

BESTrin
08-04-2004, 08:38 PM
first off, Ima not atacking your image whether you used phtographic material or not. What you should do is post the model with the textur erendered seperate in another program. Also you should post a wire overlay on the texture so that you cansee if the geometry and color matches up. Then you should post the texture mapps that you painted.

also using sss does not make something procedural its just to acursately shade a surfece. I texture useing uvmaped textures. Color, difuse ,bump, disp, lum, specular, reflection, ect. In luminance i put sss and maybe a sss map to simulate the way light interacts with skin.

what you did is more like the technique used in spideman. No shaders just the texture. The problem is that it only works for one lighting situation that at which the photo was taken. This is fine though just diferent.

celmar
08-04-2004, 08:56 PM
I don't really understand, besrin... I've posted that pictuire in several lighting situations, changing the color of the light to make that very clear... as I 've explained a lot, the whole process of the software called zbrush goes on different approach... not worse, not best, different... it's not at all necessary to think that it is a competitive situation, and that you have to proove somlething... just relax... and I don't know anything about sub scattering... I don't have a soft which allow that, and never talk about that for that picture... please, if possible, don't ask me to do that, and that, and separately the uvthing, and the meshgremlin, and so on./... just do pictures... it's fun!...

jdsb
08-04-2004, 09:03 PM
excellent execution :D

BESTrin
08-04-2004, 09:08 PM
I don't really understand, besrin... I've posted that pictuire in several lighting situations, changing the color of the light to make that very clear... as I 've explained a lot, the whole process of the software called zbrush goes on different approach... not worse, not best, different... it's not at all necessary to think that it is a competitive situation, and that you have to proove somlething... just relax... and I don't know anything about sub scattering... I don't have a soft which allow that, and never talk about that for that picture... please, if possible, don't ask me to do that, and that, and separately the uvthing, and the meshgremlin, and so on./... just do pictures... it's fun!...
hey man, i said i wasnt criting your work both at the begining and end of my post. Im not asking you to use sss just to render a wire overlayed on the texture in carracarra and to post your color map. I have had the opurtunity to use zbrush and i understand 2.5d. do you not have the ztl model with the texture? I saw you pics in diferent lighting all im saying is that with a trued shader and texture maps it reacts realisticly to diferent lighting. I said that this doesnt make yours any worse just diferent. Chill

celmar
08-04-2004, 09:39 PM
bestrin... if you understand 2,5, you know that you paint on a fixed geometry... it's all the rule of game... you have in my post the 3d object, the wireframe of the 3d object, then the white scene in zbrush, then the color scene in 2,5, then the color changes on the scene... the only thing I can do more, is to multiplicate the breads, and walk on water, but it's difficult, you see...

mr. travis
08-04-2004, 10:42 PM
hey man, i said i wasnt criting your work both at the begining and end of my post. Im not asking you to use sss just to render a wire overlayed on the texture in carracarra and to post your color map. I have had the opurtunity to use zbrush and i understand 2.5d. do you not have the ztl model with the texture? I saw you pics in diferent lighting all im saying is that with a trued shader and texture maps it reacts realisticly to diferent lighting. I said that this doesnt make yours any worse just diferent. Chill

if you'd used zbrush, you'd know he can't do that, once geometry is in 2.5d it's not like working like max or something anymore, it's semi baked to the screen, and he did post the head model...

really I don't get the cruel responses... the guy is a genius for composition using several more involved cg abilities then most people do... and he's getting hammered why, because it's too good? Really makes no sense, he's terrific modeler, texturer, and scene composer as he's shown over multiple projects, and a great traditional artist, but I guess because he isn't some sort of standardized fellow doing out of the box max or maya plastic looking things with big breasts... he should be strung up?

heh, sorry I'm getting a bit ranty here because you are cheesing me off with such disrespect to one of my favorite digital artists... but I'll go with the old saying, if you think what he's doing is so easy please go ahead and demonstrate that.

celmar
08-04-2004, 11:35 PM
thank you, Travis!.. as we said in french, I'm red of confusion!... it has been a rather funny story, that picture.. as I leave tomorrow for an island in mediterranean sea, I was running all the afternoon in Paris, just passing by my house sometimes... and that picture, originally rather "serious", with something of the preraphaelite painting, in my wish for the less, has gone to a funny one, maybe by self defense!... for the technical questions... mmm... my opinion is clear: answer very honestly at the questions, and if necessary write tutorials, ok... BUT techniucal questions are absolutely without importance... the only thing is the feeling of the pict, and that sort of things... so, at the end, I'm with a new picture, here joined, in of course a sketchy state... I just worked half an hour on it, and carrara render it in 2 hours (in hyperthread, it'strue)...later, maybe I'll finish it; maybe in zbrush, if I think that reflections are less important that the expression of the face... maybe in carrara, if the coontrary... here, it's just a mesh, the very starting step of a picture... and of course very "broad"... but it has been a "real time "3d creation, on that post!.. so, thank you!...

celmar
08-04-2004, 11:40 PM
oh, and yes... the 2 or 3 little hairs are hand painted... no geometry!...

DimitrisLiatsos
08-05-2004, 12:03 AM
Man you have a style so ...unique!. :bounce:

Kanga
08-05-2004, 12:24 AM
If you told me the world was round my response would be: "have you ever seen it?"

You might say: "I've seen pictures from space"

I might say: "could be trick photography"

I read a tutorial once where the guy said that the people watching the movie won't ever see your wireframe. He was a student at the time,.... could he have been right?

Have a great holiday celmar,..... you sure earned it!
Kanga

BESTrin
08-05-2004, 01:21 AM
if you'd used zbrush, you'd know he can't do that, once geometry is in 2.5d it's not like working like max or something anymore, it's semi baked to the screen, and he did post the head model...

really I don't get the cruel responses... the guy is a genius for composition using several more involved cg abilities then most people do... and he's getting hammered why, because it's too good? Really makes no sense, he's terrific modeler, texturer, and scene composer as he's shown over multiple projects, and a great traditional artist, but I guess because he isn't some sort of standardized fellow doing out of the box max or maya plastic looking things with big breasts... he should be strung up?

if you save the model as a zbrush tool ztl you can rotate it and view a wire. You can paint textures and whatever. You said you used phtots and painted them to gether in ps then uvmapped. I just want to see the maps. I dont doubt you i just want to see them as the texture is quite realistic.

I dont think my response was cruel at all. If you read every poist ive made i satated that i thought this was great work and amzing no matter how you achieved the textures. Lets not get this thread closed because of pety arguing. Im not criting the fact that you used photos to achieve this. Im not askinf you to turn water to wine and walk on water. I just though if you were so inclined you might post the texture map if its not guvtiles (which wouldnt work for using a photo and painting in between). An maybe a wire ove rthe textur eif posiible. If you dont have the ztl (zbrush tool) with all the 3d data (as it would seem from some other images you posted) thats fine. Im not sying you pasted a photo of a face in im not saying this work is any less than other works because you used photos in the textures. So i dont see how my response was cruel or how i sugested the guy would look beter with plastic breasts. If you dont have another renderer or other full 3d soft then its even more amazing what you can do. Im not trying to tear you down nor am i zbrush. Lets just chill and have a discusiion without getting all defensive. I understand how easy it is to get defensive especially after some of the other posts but lets just calm down now. Your work is great its a great image it deserved the front page plug and it still is one of the best cg face s out there.


now about you pqainting those hairs in. I might have a problem with that. Your cheating at 3d. Just kidding> Great work.

BESTrin
08-05-2004, 01:28 AM
Oh and your new (jack in the box) image is cool. Maybe have his botom jaw in the box. Cool stuff. Enjoy your vacation.

Gal
08-06-2004, 11:06 AM
first of all, artquatic is a great artist.. i love his stuff.
and his face that u posted is all cg, his model is great.. his texture and shader work are good too.
look at cemar's shaded view.. the model looks NOTHING like the textured face.
that's why it is an issue. the model looks like it's his first time using zbrush and cant control his push/pull intensities. (no offense)
it is simply a mapped PHOTO! not texture on the model either using a projection or just "painting" the image on it. that's all, please dont lower artquatic's work to this standard.

if ppl here look at the final image and the shaded view, and cant see it isnt a pure 3d result/the technique he used.. then they should not be in this business.

rolhionjs
08-06-2004, 11:44 AM
Whatevever the technic used as i concern. I think this image is pretty strong in its style. Marcel Laverdet is a pure artist, and he has its own style, a pure style, and a fabulous illustrator.

Zbrush, has many different way to create an image, and that's all the point of this image : possibility to use mapping on a 2.5D environnment. It doesn't mean Marcel is unable to create real 3D, because he already created some fabulous meshes. I think the result is most important that the way to create... and Marcel proved it one more time.

mmhnemo
08-06-2004, 01:02 PM
it is simply a mapped PHOTO! not texture on the model either using a projection or just "painting" the image on it. that's all, please dont lower artquatic's work to this standard. Alas - if there only was a 2.5D Forum on CGTalk all this nonsense would not belittle the great work shown in this thread.
To all the people screaming 'uh oh its not pure 3D!!11' - you are correct - be happy

@Marcel please dont get irritated by the hostiles here. You made very clear how you created the picture but you cant give out full blown tutorials for a creative process with each picture and it is not expected.
Just continue to create great pictures - its fun :thumbsup:

josambs
08-06-2004, 01:09 PM
it looks great! somehow disturbing. i dont care how you did it, it LOOKS and FEELS unique and different, thats important.

regards,

johannes

BESTrin
08-06-2004, 07:04 PM
Marcel Laverdet is a great artist but i dont think this lives up to his standards. The isue with the face is not that its 2.5d and not 3d and if you think thats it then your not getting it. Its that the texture doesnot match up to the geometry. The face has not actual 3d shading if the mesh were viewed by itself next to the photo used in the texture and the final image face you would see the mesh isnt the same face. Regardless its a nice image. I am aware that this contradicts my previous post but after more carful inspection i realized that the face texture doesnt mach the mesh. This is not an attack on marcel laverdet just an observation. I could be wrong but untill we can see the texture maps that cemar refered and maybe if posible a wireframe over the textured mesh (which is posiible if the ztl file is saved as it aparently is) then it seems this is the case. I hope everyone understands that im not attacking this work or personally atacking Marcel Laverdet, that i understand 2.5d and that 2.5d is not why this work has been critted, that Marcel Laverdet (cemar) is a great artist, and that i am not demanding the wire or anything else just requesting it for clarification. I hope we can discuss this peacably.

Kanga
08-07-2004, 02:25 PM
I was a bit shocked by the extreme comments on this thread which seemed to go against the grain of what this FREE service is all about.

It was clear to me that certain poly modellers felt cheated that a technique was used to gain unfair advantage. What is cheating then? We all use photographic referances, we all do as many tutorials as we can get our hands on, we are always looking to do things faster and better than we can now.

Cheating is stealing other peoples meshes and textures and ideas without permission instead of being insiped by them.

Creativity cannot be stolen.

If there is something you don't like a positive suggestion on how you think it could be improved might be more in keeping with the ideaology this service provides. Especially among your fellow artists.

As an artist the outside world smacks the crap out of you daily. Don't do it to each other!

Kanga

Vushvush
08-07-2004, 02:29 PM
I think their constructive criticism was build a mesh, don't use a photo......

BESTrin
08-07-2004, 04:06 PM
you guys who are so appalled by all the constructive crits should read the "xtreme" posts over again. The problem is not that he used zbrush, its not that its 2.5d, its not that he used photos in his texture, its not that he didnt poly modela face out of a box and apply a complex shader invplving 8 diferent texture maps and 30 shaders. You guys seem to think oi have a problem with those things but i dont. I realy have no problems with it except it is possible i enfisize posible, and to my belief that the picture and the zbrush geometyr dont match up and that the gometry doe not a fect the image (that you could overlay the picture on a plane and get the same result) i never said he was cheating or that he was trying to get a leg up on so on everyone in "the great struggle of cg power". Im not saying that he intentionaly projected the photo and then painted the mesh in over it with no shading on the mesh. It just turned out so that because of the lighting the actual geometry has no afect on the image. If he would be kind enough to post his texture maps and the reference photos we would have more insight but right now hes on a well diserved vacation and well just have to argue pointlessly. Evry time someone says anything similar to my post. someone comes and replies painting them as evil stuck up extreme 3d purists, who hate zbrush, dont understand art, dont understand that its ok to use photomaterial in a texture on and on and on. I have used zbrush and have used photomateerial in my textures i made a face and used pictures of my own face to paint in and use as reference for much of it. Im not criting that at all or the fact that its 2.5d and he didnt save the textured face as a .ztl. The only extreme posts are those who are to stuborn to look at it any other way and instead just try to shoot down those non fanboy posts all day. Sory if i ofended anyone.

lambert_rdl
08-08-2004, 12:35 AM
very nice, good texture:thumbsup:

shards
08-17-2004, 12:59 AM
first f, great work!!it has an original looking feel to it and it is a very good render..I think that if you did a great looking thing then no matter what tricks and tecniques you used, only results count!!

anyway as already said the face is really too much realistic that almost does not fit the rest..I experimented the same tecnique in the past, and it is not like UV mapping it is more like composition..
you are using front projection mapping, practically you *project* a photo into a geometry,and make them match toghether..it is used everyday in cinema as to seamless composite real/cg elements.
you posted the model reacting to different light conditions..that's usual in compositing..but I guess that you cannot post a different point of view of that (and this is an important point when you talk about 3D)

it gives very photoreal results but people wants to know when this non standard tecniques are used, and telling that you used a "effectively a painted -textured image, which is mapped on the geometry" it is kinda misleading imo.

anyway great job/composition/whatever it is!

BESTrin
08-17-2004, 04:08 PM
oblivion black said it. Its like compositioning. basically the geometry does not affect the render its an image. The rest of it is nice though and so is the face its just not cg.

shards
08-17-2004, 09:12 PM
basically the geometry does not affect the render its an image

oh no! not exactly, the geometry actually there is and it affects the surroundings, he also posted the lighting change that demonstrate this, it is not like just an image!!it is a lot less flat than a simple image, also you can use radiosity, it reacts well to shadows, lights and volumetrics.. and all the standard features your package has can be used with this technique!!
I dont consider this to be so bad, a lot of cg artists use it to give nice touches of realism, in theory that's the best and quickest way to achieve photorealism in CG.

if you are interested I did a quick experiment with the same method some time ago:
http://www.3dluvr.com/oblivion/art/bubbaBok.jpg
http://www.3dluvr.com/oblivion/art/bubbaOK.jpg
the face of the guy is front-projected onto a poser head.

superlayer
08-18-2004, 07:22 AM
Reminds me of something..
Great artistic quality in this piece.

Chasnam
08-18-2004, 08:47 AM
Great concept and wonderful modeling bro, I love it, could you make some more screens and give the wire - frame ?

PeterSanitra
08-18-2004, 02:27 PM
The face do not fit to the entire image.

BESTrin
08-18-2004, 08:43 PM
It wont afect radiosity because zbrush doesnt have radiosity and he does not have the model with a uvmapped texture only the photo projected onto invisible geometry.

Frenchy Pilou
09-08-2004, 11:14 AM
Magic of the Zbrush use is to "paint" with a "photo-texture" on a 3D object :)
That's produce a little more "life" on the result :)
Generaly all "real 3D" has a result without breath of life! (like "frozen beauty": it's my opinion)
exemple by BESTrin (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=147132&page=3&pp=15) (it's was writing "see my machineflesh entry")

Technic is just a tool, only count the result, the rest is sex's angels talking :)

Pilou

BESTrin
09-09-2004, 10:27 PM
Im not quite sure what you meant by that and maybe its for the better. Lets leave it there.

zoren
03-19-2005, 03:20 AM
this is intense and funny!!! great concept!

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