CGTalk - 3DSMAX 7 is here

PEN

08-02-2004, 03:18 PM

hmm.. looks more like a patch than an 7.0 to me.. what about fixing the thousand bugs that we have to bother with since years instead of adding new ones with each release?

disappointed :(

well, at least an editpoly modifier....
How can you be disapointed when you have not see or used it?? How do you know that all the bugs have not been fixed? They never state that in a release? It is always funny to read these posts because I heard the same about versions 4,5 and 6. I also heard it about Maya 4, 5 and 6. Every release so far has been great for me and the producitons that I work on. Why would this one not be the same?

ReneAlex

08-02-2004, 03:25 PM

... I agree with paul... the thing either is ship yet!!!

let try it first and it blame later... at leats...

driverjase

08-02-2004, 03:48 PM

Here's Discreet's official pdf on max 7 ...

http://www4.discreet.com/Files/3dsmax/3dsmax_tech.pdf

ngrava

08-02-2004, 03:54 PM

It looks like there might be some additional features that just didn't get mentioned in the press release. I just saw a screen shot that showed an excellent looking Skin Morph modifier that uses joint angle to control morphing! I'm really excited about that. So, there might be other unmentioned features.

http://www.3d-palace.com/crisimages/m72.jpg

-=GB=-

sireel

08-02-2004, 04:03 PM

Well my first impressions are that while the improvments don't seem revolutionary they are things that poeple have have complained about or wantedto see in Max for a long time.

CS integration: This is going to save alot of people alot of money. While I don't really use it, I know alot of people and companies that do and at 800 smakers a license, this integration is going to balance alot fo budgets. The REAL trick is going to to be having CS updated an improved on for future releases.

MentalRay 3.3: This is one of those things that If Max didn't do everyone and their grandmothers would be screaming bloody murder. So good move Discreet :) My only hope is that they fully integrate MR and not just some parts of it. Include the hair shader! Get the Matte Shadow matterial to work with it!

E-Poly modifier: Again one of those things that everyone has been screaming about for a long long time.

Enhanced interactive performace: The description say "Ongoing program..." what does this mean exactly? I guess Max could use any help it can get really but to have a separate application running in the backround to ensure that Max is running optinmally....hmmm. I like the idea of "enhanced performace" but its description worries me a bit.

Turbosmooth: Meshsmooth sucks, its a resource hog even when it has no iterations applied to it. Hopefully this will be the answer.

robinb

08-02-2004, 04:43 PM

Sounds like there's a lot of good stuff for us game artists this time round. Max 6 didn't do much for us, but this time it seems the focus has been in our favour.

Epoly at last.

Improved snapping has to be good, smart object culling sounds like a lifesaver in the future for the massive scenes that are going to be required (providing it's all fast enough).

Turbosmooth is desperately needed, so let's hope it really is a LOT faster.

Being able to use MR for render to texture is good.

I hope the normal map rendering works properly (by firing rays through to the high res model), unlike the free one that requires the UVs to match.

I'd be interested to see what the WYSIWYG directX materials from standard materials is like, that could save a world of pain.

Skin wrap sounds good. (although that sounds like the skin utility that's alread in max 6).

Preserve UVs on epoly models sounds like a massive time saver for LODing models.

And so on and so on. You can't please everyone with every release, but this one sounds like a goody for game artists.

MGernot

08-02-2004, 04:54 PM

Enhanced interactive performace: The description say "Ongoing program..." what does this mean exactly? I guess Max could use any help it can get really but to have a separate application running in the backround to ensure that Max is running optinmally....hmmm. I like the idea of "enhanced performace" but its description worries me a bit.

I think what they meant was that they will continue to work on the perfomance.
Not a separate app running in background.

I really like the SkinMorph+Skinwrap and of course the long awaited
poly-modifier.
Turbosmooth:Never had problems with meshsmooth, but more performance is always a good thing.
Paint selection is great too.
I skipped the Max6 Uprgrade, but i think this time i will upgrade.

And for all the whiners: Geht nach Hause!!

MGernot

08-02-2004, 04:59 PM

I hope the normal map rendering works properly (by firing rays through to the high res model), unlike the free one that requires the UVs to match.

Seems that booth is possible. Take a look:
http://www.3d-palace.com/crisimages/m74.jpg

Meli

saiko

08-02-2004, 04:59 PM

Is there any big change in the core script...?

Is it gonna support the existing plugins of MAX6?

robinb

08-02-2004, 05:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinb

I hope the normal map rendering works properly (by firing rays through to the high res model), unlike the free one that requires the UVs to match.

Seems that booth is possible. Take a look:
http://www.3d-palace.com/crisimages/m74.jpg

Meli

Ah cool. Didn't spot what was actually being demoed there.

Klasz

08-02-2004, 05:06 PM

I would have liked to see a new material editor... like a non linear "xsi-like" mat window....

exept the editable poly mod.. sounds like nothing REALLY interesting in this.

Sorry.

but we'll see..
and Yes, i would have liked discreet to solve the hundreds bugs i have to fight whith every day !

djlane

08-02-2004, 05:25 PM

The new skin wrap is great. it makes things so much easier, and i`ve found it to be very quick I would say 3 times faster than the Skin modifier.

D

DDS

08-02-2004, 05:39 PM

I wonder what logo It'll have...:D

Verma

08-02-2004, 05:44 PM

I wonder what UI changes it will have. From the screenshots it looks the same.

SilverSpark

08-02-2004, 06:05 PM

I want to ask a dumb question but what would be the advantage of a edit poly modifier?

Rens

08-02-2004, 07:38 PM

I want to ask a dumb question but what would be the advantage of a edit poly modifier? One advantage would be the flexibilty that it gives. Before Max 7 you'd have to convert an object to Epoly if you'd want all the Epoly tools. Now you can probably have a mesh base object, several modifiers on top and then an Epoly modifier.
Also if you don't like the result you can just toss uit the Epoly modifier.

- R

Erka2

08-02-2004, 07:53 PM

At least better then max 6 update :)
I was waiting for editpoly modifier only...

Autarkis

08-02-2004, 09:47 PM

I have to agree that some of the advances flaunted on the press releases are mostly related to the upgrade in MR. Will it be more integrated this time? I really really hope so!

I'm loving the epoly modifier, turbosmooth and skin wrap. :)

Can't wait until i get to see it in action to gain more insights into those features (will i be demoed for siggraph? i hope so!)

And the best...Student price... 100 euros if i read correctly? ::gasps:: i'm loving it!

Humanzee

08-02-2004, 10:46 PM

turbosmooth.... it sounds great doesn't it? Putting "turbo" infront of anything makes it sound great ;) Look forward to seeing how it compares to meshsmooth

fez

08-02-2004, 11:01 PM

Mahlon

08-02-2004, 11:15 PM

The new skin wrap is great. it makes things so much easier, and i`ve found it to be very quick I would say 3 times faster than the Skin modifier.

D
Could you elaborate a little on the skinwrap deformer? Sounds like you've used it. I don't really understand what it's supposed to do. Similar to the Skin Utility?

Thanks,
Mahlon

Cararan

08-02-2004, 11:18 PM

Hmmmm. Looks nice but I don't I will not be upgrading again. Version 5.1 seem to be doing me Good with minor problems.

Hazdaz

08-03-2004, 02:03 AM

Some interesting things there...

The most interesting for me was the MR3.3 and cooperation with Nvidia - I want to never have to render again :D

The other interesting thigns were the Snaps;
Says it multi-threaded through now (no idea how multi-thread it was before, but I hope this can give a nice speed increase);
and somewhere it mentioned that it can handle larger data-sets than before.

Truthfully, if tis jsut more stable and can handle larger scenes without bogging down, then I will be thrilled, so thus all these other new tools are just bonuses.

loqutos

08-03-2004, 06:22 AM

SuperMax

08-03-2004, 07:39 AM

Any advances in the architecture side of things?
To me the only eye candy seems to the the SSS.

urgaffel

08-03-2004, 08:35 AM

While I usually like to see the upgrade of a software package I use often, it dismays me to see the new version of Studio Max releasing so soon after the last version came out. Now, I like everyone else who wants to keep up with the changes to the software, will have to shell out again.
I realize that the company has to make money, and I also realize it makes it's money from upgrades and new users who purchase the software, however, I do believe that there should be a significant price break for users who just recently upgraded to Studio Max 6. It just irks me that I have to shell out more hard-earned money so soon after the last release...and it further irks me to think that so many people will get the new version the way they have gotten every version of software they use...with a patch on their eye!They have switched to a one year release cycle so that the subscription would be worth something for those who got it. You get the upgrade cheaper if you're a subscriber... As for just having gotten max 6, maybe you can talk to your reseller and maybe get a cheaper upgrade since you just missed the official announcement.

As for what we're getting, I'm really interested in this upgrade. Lots of new tools I want to play with such as epoly modifier, renderable normal mapping and see if the better handling of large datasets is really better or just slightly improved. To name a few :)

Supermax: how about better handling of large data sets, better snapping precision and more modeling tools?

erikals

08-03-2004, 10:01 AM

Max 7 sure looks cool, anyone knows the estimated price?

I've always been interested in that Character Studio, and now you guys get it integrated. Oh well. Didn't that cost like $1000 or something?

eddy-3ddy

08-03-2004, 01:05 PM

"turbosmooth"

After reading the brochure pdf and tech pdf on Max7 I am still unsure what "turbosmooth" is supposed to be. Is this an optimized Meshsmooth/subd modifier? If so, how optimized? Lightwave and XSI optimized?It's a viewport enhancement. You don't actualy see it. It is a formula for quick calculation of normal smoothing stuff. It's like a new 3d engine enhancement to work faster.

SOme said that the most stuff is finally in Max7 because of the screaming, and I agree with that. But when does they manage the uvw unwrapper so that you can make a pixel per unit like I want 64 pixels a unit. Or 32. I did create a simple maxscript, but it's too buggy. It works...

thorn3d

08-03-2004, 01:34 PM

It's a viewport enhancement. You don't actualy see it. It is a formula for quick calculation of normal smoothing stuff. It's like a new 3d engine enhancement to work faster.
According to discreet, this isn't accurate.

They are describing TurboSmooth as a relative of MeshSmooth... the difference being that Turbo has a smaller feature set (apparently they only included the most-often used parameters) while being much faster. MeshSmooth is still available if you need it.

thorn

eddy-3ddy

08-03-2004, 02:02 PM

Where did you get that information, because the only info I have is this:

viewport interaction
Turbo Smooth: A pure smoothing algorithm that brings amazing
speed to viewport operations, allowing for even more detail to be retained when needed.

For me it's saying just the way I thought about it in the last reply...

design721

08-03-2004, 02:03 PM

There's nothing helpful in these updates for the viz market (a growing market that Discreet is the key player), with maybe MR being an exception.

The things I wanted were about cost and backwards compatibility. I see no reason that I need to spend #1300 (to upgrade from 5.1) just to be able to be 'current'. I would stay with 5.1 indefinitely if it weren't for the compatibility. I know of NO other program that can't down save to older versions, even ACAD does this!

All I can say is that they are losing a lot of customers and surely more. The competition is just so much cheaper and is offering more bang for the buck (for those of us that don't do any character animation). Once Final Render and VRay come out with their standalone renderers Max will lose a HUGE market.

Too bad for us, I guess.

thorn3d

08-03-2004, 02:42 PM

Where did you get that information

http://support.discreet.com (http://support.discreet.com/) in the max forum / take 5 listing.

I can't post the direct link (it fails), but here's the quote:

I like to describe it in this manner. We have removed all of the esoteric features leaving behind the guts of Mesh Smooth. Only the parts that 80% of max artists use 80% of the time were kept (you would be surprised how focused that is). What was left is the "stuff" that people use most and it absolutely rips! Naturally, Mesh Smooth will be there in case you need some aspect of it that it is not in Turbo Smooth.

Dan Prochazka
discreet

thorn

eddy-3ddy

08-03-2004, 02:59 PM

hmm, for the next max version I would love a clear technical specification doc, and not something like a horoscope...

thorn3d

08-03-2004, 06:17 PM

I know of NO other program that can't down save to older versions
Then you haven't looked hard enough.

thorn

Autarkis

08-03-2004, 06:36 PM

oh!

I would have thought it was a new algorithm or something for the smoothing operation. Oh well, live and learn.

btw, you're right, adding turbo in front of it makes it sound so much sexier. TurboMax for max 8 anyone?

(i would love to see it becoming a 64 bit with a full rewrite, but isnt that supposed to happen on 10?)

thorn3d

08-03-2004, 07:10 PM

oh!
(i would love to see it becoming a 64 bit with a full rewrite, but isnt that supposed to happen on 10?)
AFAIK , no one from discreet has ever officially confirmed there IS any rewrite planned.

One wonders how and why this myth/rumor/whatever continues with each release of max...

thorn

Life Style

08-03-2004, 09:35 PM

I'm going to add my take on the max rewrite theory, this is only my take on the situation and just a conspiracy theory based on observation.

A current max rewrite makes sense if you look at its current state of development.

3DS's main strength is its ability to act as a core modeller which can be modified and customized to fit your work pipeline. Which is why Discreet hasn't bothered with hair, an internal renderer, fluids, volumetric effects, etc . . ., it gives you the basics for all these jobs, but plug-ins can meet your specific needs mofe effectively (and plug-ins can be developed by a focused developer more effectively + competition never hurts). This also makes sense as far as pricing because Maya Unlimited or XSI Advanced are $7000-$9000 when you might only need one of the extra features. So max sits in a position to meet the needs of a one person arch vis or game modder while still having the abilty to step up to team based film effects. (I'm not saying max is better than XSI or Maya or any other program, each app has its strengths and weaknesses)

This strength is also max's main weakness, as the core architecture is the oldest! Some of its code goes back ten years and wasn't written with the knowledge of how fast computers would be and the complexity of future projects. This obselete code is far to integrated to simply rewrite those portions which has lead to alot of the gripes people have about max; bugs and instability, no cross-platform/version compatability, poor scene management, limited file size, bad booleans/nurbs/sub-d/meshsmooth etc . . ., and most importantly max has become one of the hardest programs to write plug-ins for.

So max needs a re-write, but this is not as simple as people make it out to be. These programs are huge, and redevelopment would take at least 3-6 years to complete. So in the meantime Discreet needs to keep its current customers happy and on board. By releasing yearly editions with mainly plug-in based advances (Reactor, Mental Ray, Character Studio) and band-aid fixes, users get something new while Discreet doesn't waste their time working hard to fix the already obselete core. (For the people who complain releases come to fast with not enough advancement, just skip a version, you'll get twice the upgrade. Why would Discreet wait a year to release something which is ready now?)

A re-write would also have to be damn necessary in order to justify the effort and recoup the cost. Release 10 would appear to be the perfect timing. Some of the benefits would be amazing for the 3d community and Discreet's pocket book; it could be the first 3D app to utilize 64 bit programming, full shader and graphic card integration for unparalled viewport speed and quality, GPU based rendering, MAC and Linux versions, unlimited scene size and polygon counts, script and plug-in programming based on a GUI system, and most importantly the most solid core modelling application on the market.

It would also have a new name to fit the Discreet product line, 3DS Max is no where as cool as Flame or Flint or Plasma or Inferno.

Looking forward to 2006/2007 based on the current rate of releases!

Rens

08-03-2004, 10:00 PM

Nice theory Life Style. It makes a lot of sense.

Imagine a 64-bit Max.....

Life Style

08-03-2004, 10:06 PM

Thanks, it is a bit of wishful thinking, but more thought out than "I want max to do everything all the other progarms do for less money"

rohit

08-04-2004, 12:33 AM

hi maxers,

will reactor & particle flow also going to be updated in this release?

regards, rohit

thorn3d

08-04-2004, 01:34 AM

LifeStyle - numerous people have stated just than, on numerous occasions. No one is arguing the point... i'm merely saying that people keep talking about a re-write as if it's something discreet has said they are going to do.

With every version, people say "I wonder if this is the rumored rewrite!!"... yet discreet hasn't said yet that there will BE a rewrite. It's a RUMOR, and that's ALL it is at this point. We might as well ask if this is the version that has Voice-Activated Modeling.

thorn

Life Style

08-04-2004, 01:59 AM

Thorn3d - My response wasn't really directed at you, your response just gave me a prompt to go on my little rant.

It was more directed at the postings on the thread about Max 7 in the CG News section. People were bashing this release and saying things along the lines of "Discreet knows about problems but won't fix them".

My point is mainly that Discreet is not stupid, if the latest releases seem half-assed, it's because they are! But I'm glad they are, I want the next generation of software to be here as soon as possible. Discreet knows that things I mentioned like GUI programming will gain max a lot of the respect its lost in the last few years which = $$$. "Less Bugs!" or "Crashes a lot less" would take a lot of work for Discreet to deliver and wouldn't steal users from Maya or other apps.

Hazdaz

08-04-2004, 02:21 AM

I am sooo sick of hearing about MAX's rewrite, so the only reason I am bothering with this post, is cuz I'm bored...

First off, its a business, and like any business if you don't innovate, you will LOSE. Period.

So, thus OFCOURSE there will be a rewrite. Heck, it most definitly started a few YEARS ago (concurrent development of annual releases, and re-write release). As the program gets older and older, I get more surprised that the rewrite isn't released yet, BUT you have to take into account the business cycle - the last few years were BAD for business (all businesses). So just like everywhere else, I am sure that the rewrite was pushed back atleast a year while the company restructured and cut back on development.

It would only make sense (when looking at the age of the current software, and looking at its competition) that a rewrite would come about next cycle to corispond with a 64-bit edition.

Either way, I see more (possible) cool things in this realease than what I expected, so I can't say I am really disappointed at all - well that is until the first time it crashes on me. :surprised

MayaV

08-04-2004, 02:36 PM

hi ppl

i am an avid maxer but i am sorry to say that the worst release by discreet, keeping in mind the current trends and technology available. It seems that discreet want to remain in gaming & visualization market and dont want to come out of it. ITS SAD.

pluMmet

08-04-2004, 03:47 PM

According to this thread: 'Particle Flow Tools at SIGGRAPH' over at the take 5 section of the Discreet Max Forum there will be new PF tools :)

Steve Green

08-04-2004, 05:31 PM

Yes there will be additional tools, but since discreet laid off the guy who wrote pflow in the restructuring a while back, it won't be part of Max 7 it will be a separate purchase.- Steve

Rivendale

08-04-2004, 06:45 PM

Whoa, this thread was a lot more constructive than the one in the cg news section.

Life Style- I like that theory, and I hope you're right. It could very well place max ahead of the game.:thumbsup:

thorn3d- yes I agree it's only a rumour, but it could also be that the rumour started from somewhere inside Discreet. Maybe...just maybe, let's hope.;)

CML

islivkov

08-04-2004, 11:47 PM

Once Final Render and VRay come out with their standalone renderers Max will lose a HUGE market.

Too bad for us, I guess.
Do you know that the 1st ver. of VRays stand alone is on their site? OK, it is not something you can really use as a stand alone, but they have started doing it :) Check it out on http://www.vrayrender.com/exe/

DDS

08-05-2004, 08:26 AM

yeah, we have to admit max has been losing a lot of customers for the last years...I'm sure about that.

But it's not a bad program at all...only people criticize it because they're expecting a rewrite that never comes up....but as somebody said in this post...not making continuous upgrades means that they are not making a full rewrite of the software meanwhile...

Well, I've used maya for some time and it crashed a little too...and I don't know if it has autoback...but It should...Because when max breaks I don't lose more than 5 minutes of work :D, so the main problem are the viewports, don't you think?
And Maya also has a lot of things worse than max! I don't think discreet guys are idiot as most of you think, I think they're expecting something, because max is more than anything...a business.

Gräck

08-05-2004, 11:00 AM

Both programs (Maya and Max) have advantages. Max seems to be very fast in modeling, especially the interface is wonderful. In Maya you often have to click twice while in max you can do it with only one click (example: select and modify). Furthermore you have very good feedback when moving the mouse above the gizmo or vertices. So in my opinion modeling is more fun in Max. But Maya seems to have a bit more options.

I was the last two times on the discreet roadshow here in germany. A discreet-guy told me while presenting 3ds max 6 that they are already working on max7 and 8. So I think they are rewriting it.

DonMeck

08-05-2004, 11:41 PM

It's certainly not the worst update and not a bad one neither, in my opinion.
Well - at least from looking on the public feature list and from readingthe discreet webboard.

Normal mapped Meshes can be used in the viewports as lower LOD version, thus also interesting for visualization? Concerning Character stuff, there's a lot. UVW unbound to the mesh - now you ca go back and tweak easily when needed.
Viewports than can display the wanted target device display size, that's nice when doing stuff for VR or exhibition, handheld devices etc.

Max6 plug-ins don't need a recompile.

I wonder if this 'blend multiple textures' allows us now to combine textures with any blend-mode we want easily, like done in game-engines?

On the discreet board the guy said, the he didn't like the fact, that in r5 so much wasn't really working - and he changed to few things, but working. That sounds good!

We will see.

plastic

08-06-2004, 11:25 AM

my grief with the new version is only a price issue.
i'm one of those who are quick to diss max, even if i use it every day and don't know a better software for my needs. (no, xsi is not an option, and maya is a one trick pony, hehe)

the thing is, the update costs me probably 1000eur...i'm not in the subscription program, it would come a bit cheaper with it, but not much.
now 1000 eur, thats like one good week of work. is it worth it?
i'm a vray user (most people i know use 3rd party renderers by now) so i'm not interested in mental ray.
what else is new? editable poly modifier. improved snap. great. but 1000 eur?? i can't justify it.
will it accelerate my daily work in a way that the update costs can be covered? hardly.
was vray worth the 800$? hell, yeah.

erikals

08-06-2004, 12:00 PM

Looks like Max 7 will cost $3000. :hmm:
Think I'm sticking to my old 3D app. for the moment.

Kahenraz

08-09-2004, 02:53 PM

If Discreet is all excited about integrating CS into Max7, then I'd like to see them throwing CS 3 and 4 free of charge at the rest of us. http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/wise.gif

At least then those of us who don't have CS will all start cheering for Max7 as well, lol.

design721

08-09-2004, 06:09 PM

This all does come down to price for me, too. I am still on 5.1, so $1300 to go up is like buying a full version of Cinema or Lightwave or Form Z! I have Final Render so MR is useless to me, too. I am only worried about compatability with other files I may need from others at some point.

It's like they plan it this way, so all of us that are fine with the version we have will be forced to upgrade just to stay current. Without giving us a back/down save, we are stuck. It's got me a tad angry, to be honest. With FormZ I can down save to versions from 5 years ago! Even Autocad will do it.

None of the updates mean anything to me. I can't understand why they aren't working towards a modular system. They WILL lose tons of us if they don't give us options. With Rhino and Sketch 3D, and even FormZ coming in with GI, there will be new competition for a fraction of the cost.

CS? Never even opened it.

TRick

08-10-2004, 07:20 AM

I'm on version 3 and have extensively tested all versions after that. I do very complex viz-stuff with FormZ, LW and LightScape (animations from fully populated immersive environments) and simply can not understand people LIKE to work in MAX. I once did a price comparison for a full setup with hardware (to make it workable like FormZ) and comparable libraries and plugins I need: $11000 and that is without a 3rd party renderer since most anims are simple scanlines with lots of lightmapped models. So I'm comparing MAX's scanline with LW's and LS's rendering engines: there are a lot of tricks to get very good scanline renderings out of MAX, but with LW and LS things are a lot easier. So to get better renderings (and I don't mean VRay for Radiosity) I would have to buy a 3rd party renderer: since I render at least on 10 machines you can guess prices go literally through the roof....

Please understand that once I was a 3DStudio lover. Since Discreet is offering MAX7 as the last upgrade path for R3 until sept.30th I guess the only way I will be using MAX is by buying a new license in the (far) future. I know that there will be a time that I'll have to drop LS, so I will always investigate new possibilities. The most important thing I have been waiting for since v3 is a rewrite (I'm waiting for that with LW too) of the core renderengine (scanline/antialiasing/speed) which would make me turn instantly. Instead I have only seen features added (like other programs had for years) which sounded good on paper, but gave a lot of problems in working environments. I still hope one day I can be excited again about a MAX (or any software) upgrade as I was when I upgraded from 3DStudio r3 to r4. I really don't care what software package it would be :D

design721

08-10-2004, 01:00 PM

I'll agree with you about FormZ and maybe I should try Lightwave. FMZ is so much easier to model in, and a million times better with graphic cards (I still can't believe how poorly Max behaves with anything but the mid-top of the line pro cards, whereas FMZ works well with a Geforce2 from 5 years ago!).

Once VRay and Final Render come out with their standalones, I won't need Max (and many of us in the arch viz business) to 'hold' everything. Then they'll lose another chunk of the market. Too bad, really, as there are somethings that I like about (but rarely use).
It needs to be modular, period.

design721

08-10-2004, 02:19 PM

Not to keep bitchin', but I thought this was interesting:

http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/newsfeed.asp?nid=2122

Softimage starting at $500! Discreet better wake up, unless they are promoting warez programs they will continue to lose customers, which isn't good for anyone.

Mahlon

08-10-2004, 05:07 PM

I'm on version 3 and have extensively tested all versions after that. I do very complex viz-stuff with FormZ, LW and LightScape (animations from fully populated immersive environments) and simply can not understand people LIKE to work in MAX.

I don't think I'd like to work in max 3 either now. But max 6 is quite different. Do the features of the latest version not meet your needs; or is it max's workflow?

Mahlon

opus13

08-10-2004, 05:22 PM

It's like they plan it this way, so all of us that are fine with the version we have will be forced to upgrade just to stay current.
they learned it from the masters: microsoft. MS used this method to force the spread of Word. back in the day when wordperfect was king, MS essentially gave away thousands of copies of word to get a small user base. as it added new features, it 'broke' the format for users of older versions (even if those new features werent even used).... forcing upgrades in a ripple effect.

although not a 'nice' thing to do, its definately a valid business plan. it sux, but its the nature of the beast. yep, i'll be upgrading too.

blacknight

08-10-2004, 05:34 PM

Softimage starting at $500! Discreet better wake up, unless they are promoting warez programs they will continue to lose customers, which isn't good for anyone.
sorry i just thought this was funny becouse this is always an issue when there some software cons, i have to say first that i dont do viz, i teach and do VFX sometimes, the thing do you have any idiea the cost of softimage advance or maya unlimitd has¿?¿? becouse from my point of view max is still cheaper thatn thoose two (maybe not lightwave, i dont know couse idont use it), you should think that twice before saint that its too expensive again, becouse to that you need to sum the anuanl support that you need to pay to, and i prefer the discreet subscription

TRick

08-10-2004, 05:43 PM

...Do the features of the latest version not meet your needs; or is it max's workflow?MahlonEven on a very expensive and certified setup the responsiveness makes me cry. When I look at what other programs (and games) can do on the most basic computers I wonder what has happened with MAX internally since V1. Featurewise there always have been plugins to fulfil my needs. Workflow has been enhanced through the years. Currently I'm working on a 2M poly scene with a lot of textures, animated characters, animals, trees (instanced 1000M (!!) poly), plants, cars, particle fountains, etc. There is NO compositing afterwards so everything is in ONE scene. I tried something like this in the MAX6 demo: crashes every 10 min, a huge file which keeps all the content, workability comes almost to a hold, etc. I know that the MAX workflow could be adjusted (RPC content, low-res placeholders, post-compositing,etc) to these kind of projects, but IMO this kind of workflow should NEVER be a problem. I know some companies that do this kind of work in MAX, but they work with specialized teams (300+ employees) and have huge resources. And that is not something I wanna compete with...

The strongest point for MAX: 3DStudio started as a AutoCAD add-on and could be distributed by Autodesk channels. These channels are in every corner in the world so it was an easy choice for small companies (architects, game studios, viz-companies, effects houses). Since I live in Europe-Netherlands, it is almost impossible to get decent help/support from any of the other players (LW, FormZ, Maya, XSI). This has changed a bit since the Internet-saga but it still is a big selling point, and also allows Discreet an arrogant attitude in their pricing structure. In that regard I don't expect them to drop prices on the current MAX-package: it's only a matter of time before they strip MAX into a basic supporting app for employees lower in the foodchain...

design721

08-10-2004, 06:12 PM

I am not saying Max isn't a good deal compared to XSI or Maya Unlimited, but it's features that I don't need. Character Studio is something I"ve never opened and never will, so including it is pointless to me.
It's a valid business point, but only for so long. Word does not have competition, Max does, and more and more of it. Architect and the arch viz community do care about the extra pennies, and as the other programs become more and more compatible (like Rhino and Brazil, SketchUp and some renderer, even FormZ will have GI soon), it seems like overkill. There's Viz, of course, and that may be the only choice, but no one was confident that v5 was even going to be released!

I just want to pay for what I use, nothing more. Let me buy CS if I want it, or even MR. Max got a lot of use because of the warez copies, that the head of Discreet was quoted as saying 'well, better they are using our product than someone elses'. That's marketing.

design721

08-10-2004, 06:14 PM

Oh, yeah, and there's also that issue of reselling you copies that bugs me.

I do like Max a lot, it's just the cost is a lot just to be compatible.

JohnnyRandom

08-10-2004, 07:27 PM

Bitch,Bitch,Bitch, that's all 70% of max user's do when Discreet comes out with an upgrade. Sorry but boohoo. Max is a great package albeit expensive (although not as expensive as it used to be), it does it all, and frankly I like that. Most others don't without spending a few thousand more in step-ups.

Edit Poly mod=great
CS=fine only played with it but hey
bunch of other things that suit other disciplines = nothing wrong with that.

"Oh, yeah, and there's also that issue of reselling you copies that bugs me"

Your buying a license not the software with any program you buy (excpect of course high-end hardware specifics like flame or inferno were discreet states you can transfer licenses). Most software man. don't let you resell your license. I'm pretty sure you can't resell an XSI or a Maya license either.

Marsel Khadiyev

08-10-2004, 07:52 PM

dizzl8r, bitching is what people do :) What good is world without it? No good at all.

JohnnyRandom

08-10-2004, 09:03 PM

dizzl8r, bitching is what people do :) What good is world without it? No good at all. http://server4.cgtalk.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gifhttp://server4.cgtalk.com/images/smilies/grin.gif

TRick

08-10-2004, 09:20 PM

...Your buying a license not the software with any program you buy (excpect of course high-end hardware specifics like flame or inferno were discreet states you can transfer licenses). Most software man. don't let you resell your license. I'm pretty sure you can't resell an XSI or a Maya license either.I had discussion with a lot of people about this issue and until now nobody could convince me in believing this kind of crap. I buy a license for say a version 1 of some app, which I can use till I or the supporting hardware drops dead. Now I want to do something else like selling icecream to little kids because that app gave me a heartattack. Because of some stupid "license" the vendor does NOT allow me to transfer this software (whether it is selling or donating) to someone who could use it better. What other reason is there then the vendor does not earn any money from that someone instead of offering a userfriendly service to allow me to get rid of the software. Even if I choose another package, that should be a signal that this vendor/developer is doing something wrong he just can't ignore. I see no difference from selling a license or software (that otherwise will gather dust) then selling a book or a hammer or other usefull tool that ages with the years !!! The only difference is that you can upgrade software: but then again the new user will do this too...under the condition that I can convince him into using a software that I'm giving up on....

The above text is in small print because I don't want this thread to result in a discussion about licensing, but I do think that in this case it should be mentioned again !!

TRick

08-10-2004, 09:25 PM

Bitch,Bitch,Bitch, that's all 70% of max user's do when Discreet comes out with an upgrade...Go look in the thread about the C4D R9 upgrade and tell and explain me the percentage of complainers...I'm not a C4D fan but I would love to see them take over MAX and treat it's users as intelligent human beings !!!

JohnnyRandom

08-10-2004, 09:41 PM

Go look in the thread about the C4D R9 upgrade and tell and explain me the percentage of complainers...
hehe, .01%

Well I am coming to the conclusion that the fact that such a high percentage of max users (discreet says 280,000 licenses have been sold) don't actually own a license therefore not wanting to spend $3500 bucks on one might be ample reason to bitch.:)

Mahlon

08-11-2004, 04:00 AM

Oh, yeah, and there's also that issue of reselling you copies that bugs me.

I do like Max a lot, it's just the cost is a lot just to be compatible.
I hear ya there. I've always been against the 'you can't sell your license' agenda. Damnit, I bought the license. If it's going to be so abstract as "you can only use this license on this machine at this time, you don't really own the software...", then it should also be as abstract as "I can sell my license to anyone to use this software at anytime on any one machine." Equally abstract. And it would be equally fair in my view. But that's not the way most companies see it.

Mahlon

Mahlon

08-11-2004, 04:01 AM

It's kind of like estate tax in the U.S.

Wahooney

08-11-2004, 07:59 AM

I am eager to see more dynamics integration, like that seen in Maya.

It seems like they are planning a step in that direction

Dynamics core with estimated momentum and inertia properties for keyframed objects, allows full interaction of keyframed and dynamically simulated objects – including Virtual Stuntman dynamics.

Interactive Dynamics Core: Drives animation with highly accurate interaction between multiple dynamics solvers within an interactive preview window (even allows for dynamics-driven scene construction).
Now if they would just integrate PFlow into that lot, things could be lovely indeed.:love:

PS. FAST INTERPARTICLE COLLISIONS!!! And uh... PARTICLE SYSTEMS THAT CAN RUN BACKWARDS ARE AN EXPENSIVELY CHEAP PIECE OF GIMMICKIRY!!!

daevid

08-11-2004, 07:59 AM

I can't find any information anywhere on when it's planned to be released. How long does Discreet usually take from announcement to shipping?

/David

driverjase

08-11-2004, 10:25 AM

Wahooney the dynamics core they're speaking of is reactor ... its been built in for a little while now. If you read the fine print on the technical specs pdf:

New 3ds max 7 features in italic

... anything in italic is a new feature of max 7, anything not in italics is a feature still incorporated into max 7 from a previous release. The Dynamics core is not in italics.

Qexit

08-11-2004, 10:56 AM

Most software man. don't let you resell your license. Wrong. Most software companies are perfectly happy to let you resell/transfer your software license. Most, e.g. Adobe and Newtek, have standard forms and/or procedures in place for just that purpose. Discreet is one of the exceptions .... but even they can be flexible if you are really, really, really persistent. I sold my unused MAX 3.1 and CS 3.0 licenses recently after Discreet agreed to transfer the license to the new owner. Being in the UK where an EU directive makes non-transferable licenses illegal may have helped somewhat, though Disctreet/Autodesk claim the rules do not apply to them (this needs to be 'tested' in court at some point to settle the matter once and for all). Alias do not allow license transfers but XSi do...for a fee.

Buddski

08-11-2004, 01:18 PM

sorry to change the subject, but does this mean that people who have subscribed for updates will get it free(-ish)

JohnnyRandom

08-11-2004, 03:23 PM

Alias do not allow license transfers but XSi do...for a fee.
I believe that charging a small but reasonable fee is ok (just to pay for administrative purposes). I do think Discreet should get on that band-wagon. It may be they tried it and to many people took advantage of it, I don't know.

TRick

08-12-2004, 09:49 AM

hehe, .01%...:)Seems it now is 99.99% (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=161269&page=1&pp=15)
Complaining about something MAX-users are used to for years !!!

thorn3d

08-12-2004, 01:05 PM

Your buying a license not the software with any program you buy (excpect of course high-end hardware specifics like flame or inferno were discreet states you can transfer licenses). Most software man. don't let you resell your license. I'm pretty sure you can't resell an XSI or a Maya license either.
Hint: If you're going to try and look studly and impress the crowd by taking people to task about complaining, ya might not want end your post with a completely uninformed bit of info. ;)

Most software companies DO let you resell your license. Sometimes it is for free, sometimes there is a small charge. Discreet is the exception Dwissler, not the rule.

Also - discreet is claiming over a quarter-million seat sold... so how are you coming to the conclusion that so many of us don't actually own a copy? Should we all start scanning our credit card receipts and sticking them online as part of our forum sig?

thorn

JohnnyRandom

08-12-2004, 07:46 PM

@Trick well this is the thread that I got the .01% from everyone seemd to be pretty happy about an upgrade... http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=161094
but apperantly things change when comes down to costs:)

@thorn my bad about my misinformed comment as far as licensing is concerned, sorry , I guess I should have been more specific, how about graphics related applictions that any better?

Well I am coming to the conclusion that the fact that such a high percentage of max users (discreet says 280,000 licenses have been sold) don't actually own a license therefore not wanting to spend $3500 bucks on one might be ample reason to bitch. was what i originally wrote and ya know what, I dont believe it mentions anything specifically about the users here, although I've seen posts here from a few DS's asking for a crack to max. So dont take it so personally.
This board has now over 100000 registered users, not to say that all are max users that would be stupid, but since max does have the highest user base, kinda makes you wonder doesn't it? Or maybe not you seem pretty niave.

Well if you feel you need to post your credit card reciept then do it, oh all so knowledgable voice everyone.

Qexit

08-12-2004, 08:07 PM

how about graphics related applictions that any better?
Nope :) The majority of graphics related apps are license transferable. And to repeat, non-transferable licenses are illegal in EU countries. Do a google search on EU Directive 91/250/EEC.

markdc

08-12-2004, 08:08 PM

I can't find any information anywhere on when it's planned to be released. How long does Discreet usually take from announcement to shipping?

/David

Last year I believe the update came out in October. I saw max7 at sig on Tuesday. Turbosmooth appears to be significantly faster than meshsmooth and the editpoly modifier is there as people have been requesting. They addressed probably the two biggest complaints so I don't think it's a bad upgrade. I'll wait for the demo to decide. Of course I'm compelled to try XSI at it's new low price.

JohnnyRandom

08-12-2004, 08:22 PM

Unfortunately I don't live in the EU and well I retract my "trying to be stud" remark, Lets say they dont make it as easy as a person to person sale of software. You must get written consent from the manufacturer and they will decide if you can transfer it or not.

d) Licenses Non-Transferable. It is expressly acknowledged and agreed the License is non-transferable and Customer shall not purport to assign or transfer the License without the prior written consent of Alias, which may be granted or withheld in Alias' sole and absolute discretion. Any such purported transfer or assignment in the absence of Alias' prior written consent shall be void and without effect. If such transfer is authorized, Customer agrees to provide any and all information reasonably requested by Alias relating to such transfer and Customer shall promptly execute and/or have executed by the proposed transferee any and all documentation provided by Alias required to effect such transfer.

Qexit

08-12-2004, 08:43 PM

Hehe, seriously Discreet and Alias are exceptions to the general rule. True, you do need the permission of the company that actually owns the software (that's a legal requirement under the various applicable copyright laws), but this is usually taken as given. All the interested parties have to do is send in details of the transfer so that the company can update its registration database for the purposes of providing support and future upgrades. Most, including Discreet funnily enough, have standard forms and procedures in place to keep this as straight forward as possible. For example Adobe will email you out a simple license transfer form in PDF format that you fill out and send in. It must have taken me all of 10 minutes to fill out and drop in the nearest post box. From my past experiences of person to person sales, they tend to take longer unless you are fortunate enough to live close by and can do a straight-forward face-to-face cash for software exchange. Otherwise, there are usually a few emails, a letter with cheque, a wait while the cheque clears, then some parcelling up and a trip down to the Post Office, followed by more emails to confirm the parcel has been sent/received and so on. Nothing is ever simple these days...but license transfers don't come high on the complexity scale :twisted:

Anyway, I'll let you all return to discussing 3D MAX 7.0. I transferred my MAX 3.1 license about 6 weeks ago, so the only Discreet license I still have is Combustion 2.1.

Kahenraz

08-13-2004, 10:05 AM

I would still like to see student upgrades. :thumbsup:

design721

08-13-2004, 05:59 PM

The only way you can buy a used copy of Max is if the company (or individual) that purchased the license goes legally bankrupt and is forced to liquidate every asset. I managed to squeek around the general rule by purchasing it from someone who won a copy but never opened it (he's a XSI user).

Qexit

08-13-2004, 06:35 PM

The only way you can buy a used copy of Max is if the company (or individual) that purchased the license goes legally bankrupt and is forced to liquidate every asset.

Actually, that statement is completely wrong. If a company or person that owns a MAX license goes bankrupt, legally or otherwise, then the license is immediately and permanently terminated by Discreet/Autodesk. The license terms may differ in the US. Although I no longer own a copy of MAX, I do still have a copy of the license terms 'on file' from when I contacted the UK Office of Fair Trading regarding the legality of the non-transfer clause. This is the wording in the UK license document, to quote :

8. General.

A. This license shall terminate without further notice or action by Autodesk if you, the licensee, become bankrupt, make an arrangement with your creditors or go into liquidation.

The only legal way to sell a used copy of MAX is to get permission from Discreet/Autodesk before you advertise it....and that is not easy but not impossible. I know this because I have done it. Without that permission, then anyone buying a used copy of MAX above version 3.1 is wasting their money as they will not be able to obtain a full authorisation code from Discreet after the initial 30 day trial period expires after installation. MAX 3.1 with its parallel port dongle has a fixed authorisation code that is only dependent on the dongle ID not the machine it is installed on. As MAX 3.1 becomes non-upgradeable after September 30th, I would not be surprised to see a few redundant, legit copies going up for sale.

Anyway, this is really a discussion for another thread :)

ray-f

08-13-2004, 06:55 PM

Well, seems not only me complaining about comfort of modeling that max offers.
But there's also very good points in max i've never seen in ather apps., such a "right click=cancel started operation" making ctrl+z everytime needs some effort :)

and actually as said in this topic, crash is not a fatal error due to of auto backup..
the only problem for me is the dramaticaly decreasing speed of modeling by increasing the counts of poly..

I'm very hopefull about edit poly mod. and turbosmooth in max7 will solve that problem.

Bobo

08-14-2004, 07:12 PM

turbosmooth.... it sounds great doesn't it? Putting "turbo" infront of anything makes it sound great ;) Look forward to seeing how it compares to meshsmooth
When they say "Turbo", they really mean it. How much faster should something be to be called "turbo"? The "Turbo" button on old XT PCs was making them twice as fast. The TurboSmooth is MANY times faster, sometimes even orders of magnitude faster...

Hazdaz

08-14-2004, 08:24 PM

I don't recall reading if they said when/if there would be a demo of the new version??

I am sure MANY people here would be interested in seeing it first before even thinking of gettting it.

I for one, care more about its stability more than just about anything else.

Steve Green

08-14-2004, 08:27 PM

Bobo

08-14-2004, 09:18 PM

Hi Bobo,

as I undertstand it, some features have been removed from Turbsmooth - can you tell me if the separate by smoothing/material function is still in there?

It would be helpful if discreet posted some videos of the new features as well, then people could get a better idea of how they work/how much faster they actually are.

Thanks,

Steve
Steve,

Separate by Material/Smoothing are still there, but almost everything else is not. If all you do is adding a MeshSmooth modifier on top of a PolyMesh with Skin to get your iterations, then TurboSmooth is your modifier of choice. It gets EPoly as input and converts to EMesh on the fly, thus also speeding up the viewports significantly. It also calculates typically 5 to 10 times faster than MeshSmooth, esp. with very high iteration values, which makes both viewport and rendering faster.
The concept of TurboSmooth seems to be "The 10% of the features you use 90% of the time, with up to 10x speed increase". You simply have to love it. ;)

jonesthesteam

08-14-2004, 10:22 PM

I have upgraded from 4.2 to 6, and am slowly getting the hang of mental ray,

Would like to see a better interface....

Texture baking is great, but are they gonna bundle a number of network licences for MR? Woule be great if they did :)

Edit poly sounds cool, but i s'pose we'll all have to wait and see what they've actually done when it comes out.

Costs issue you folks should see how much you need to invest to become a carpenter or plumber, was a chippie myself, easily £2000 per year in tools & repairs. With the subscription £300 a year or less is a bargain!!!

Nima-3dman

08-15-2004, 02:05 AM

honestly max 7 has 5 major features that I wanted:

1- Snapping Workflow
2- Paint Selections
3- Skin Wrap Deformer (I always wanted this feature ,really powerful)
4- TurboSmooth
5- Normal Mapping (just for specific people)

But "Character Studio","Mental ray 3.3" and "Edit Poly Modifier" are not very huge, only a must be.

hey, Are they enough for a new release of 3ds max that is 50% based on plugins, 3ds max is a great app, so it need more features (I'm not talking about Integrating plugins, I'm talking about making new features), at least for one release (for example from 7 to 8).
we need hundred new features, not only 10 new features.

two things disturb me and make me unhappy after a new release:
first, there are a lot of things that we can do with maya and XSI but can't do with max, even there is no plugin for that.
second, we should use a lot of free and small plugins that they are very important to use and we should wait several months to find them upgraded for that new release.

uhhh, only 10 new features to mention ....

Hazdaz

08-15-2004, 04:42 AM

we need hundred new features, not only 10 new features.
Lets be honest here, most people probably only use like 10% of all the new features in a release as it is, so just piling on new 'features' (espesially if they are poorly integrated into the core package) just so Discreet can use that in their advertisments is not a good idea in my book. That does nothing but lead to bloatware - and we don't need MAX getting even MORE slow and an even more of a resource hog than it is already.

But thats just my opinion.

Steve Green

08-15-2004, 08:38 AM

Thanks Bobo,

that's pretty much all I use, so it sounds perfect for my needs.

Cheers

Steve

byzantium

08-15-2004, 09:02 AM

About turbosmooth, I think there are not good news about an isoline editing, like in Lightwave, XSI, Silo, and now Cinema 4D and Modo... or am I wrong?

Kahenraz

08-15-2004, 11:24 AM

Kahenraz

08-15-2004, 11:27 AM

honestly max 7 has 5 major features that I wanted:

1- Snapping Workflow...

Did I miss something? What's this "Snapping Workflow?" The world will end before Discreet fixes MAX's snap tools..

Steve Green

08-15-2004, 01:17 PM

How about entering a contest on CGNetworks? The last challenge had a copy of Max as one of the prizes...

- Steve

thorn3d

08-15-2004, 02:25 PM

Lets be honest here, most people probably only use like 10% of all the new features in a release as it is, so just piling on new 'features' (espesially if they are poorly integrated into the core package) just so Discreet can use that in their advertisments is not a good idea in my book. That does nothing but lead to bloatware - and we don't need MAX getting even MORE slow and an even more of a resource hog than it is already.

But thats just my opinion.
I don't agree that people only use 10%, but let's assume it's true.

Here's the problem ... your 10 percent isn't the same as mine.

It's an intersteing notion, but one cannot conclude that 90% of the app is bloatware.

thorn

Nima-3dman

08-15-2004, 09:05 PM

About turbosmooth, I think there are not good news about an isoline editing, like in Lightwave, XSI, Silo, and now Cinema 4D and Modo... or am I wrong?
This is my question too ?!
It must be there ,otherwise I will shout angrily...

Did I miss something? What's this "Snapping Workflow?"you can read about it here:
http://www.3d-palace.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2858

Originally Posted by Hazdaz
Lets be honest here, most people probably only use like 10% of all the new features in a release as it is...
Like thorn3d, I don't agree with 10% at all . :deal:
So what about "editable poly", "New unwrap uvw" and a lot of minor features after max 4 and 5 that we use them every day?! you are 100% in wrong...

I can easily back from 3ds max 7 or 6 to 3ds max 5 with no problem,
but I will never back from max 5 to 4 or 3 (Never), because It can kill me.

guys, my main purpose is :
Discreet should create some new features to be fully and 100% useful, not only some features for 10% of use in a release. can you understand guys...
thanks

Hazdaz

08-15-2004, 10:35 PM

You guys are nit-picking here... 10%, 20%, whatever. The point is that MAX is at the sad state that it is now because of exactly what you are asking for... 100 new features... 1000000 new modifiers.... 10000000 new things here and there.

BUT I think all that does is make the software developer tack-on features, instead of improve the core software with tightly integrated tools. Sure it needs some new tools/features, but I rather have a clean and consistant user-interface and stability with speed, than 100 new tools that the vast majority of them I (and most other people) will never use. Also tacking-on tools like that is a recipe for instability. Not a good situation in my mind.

There is only sooo much time and money that any company can spend for each new release, and I rather have quality over quantity of new features.

f97ao

08-15-2004, 11:20 PM

Steve,

Separate by Material/Smoothing are still there, but almost everything else is not. If all you do is adding a MeshSmooth modifier on top of a PolyMesh with Skin to get your iterations, then TurboSmooth is your modifier of choice. It gets EPoly as input and converts to EMesh on the fly, thus also speeding up the viewports significantly. It also calculates typically 5 to 10 times faster than MeshSmooth, esp. with very high iteration values, which makes both viewport and rendering faster.
The concept of TurboSmooth seems to be "The 10% of the features you use 90% of the time, with up to 10x speed increase". You simply have to love it. ;)
One thing here, that might not be so cool, is this: I'm not sure you have noticed but I did alot of testings a while ago and found that the meshsmooth that is built into the editable_poly is 2-3 times faster than if you apply a meshsmooth modifier ontop. It sounds like now the applied meshsmooth will be done a similar way, but since it's 5-10x faster it actually means it's 2-3 times faster compared to using the built in meshsmooth in editable_poly, correct? Still much better, but not as good as 10x.

What I hope they have improved the most is actually the editable_poly itself since it's insanely slow, a 100k object is dead slow on my computer even without mesh_smooth, and realy it shouldn't have to be like this. With tricky programming it would be possible to operate on objects that have several millions of polygons with existing speed (and yes I'm working on a plugin that does just this, ;) )

/Andreas

byzantium

08-16-2004, 07:02 AM

What I hope they have improved the most is actually the editable_poly itself since it's insanely slow, a 100k object is dead slow on my computer even without mesh_smooth, and realy it shouldn't have to be like this.This is the main problem of 3ds max, when you compare it with all the other 3d programs (except for smooth proxy of maya, slower than meshsmooth). Anyway I think it is slower than other programs even using editable mesh...
With tricky programming it would be possible to operate on objects that have several millions of polygons with existing speed (and yes I'm working on a plugin that does just this, ;) ):bounce:

DonMeck

08-16-2004, 09:02 AM

If you read the posting on the discreet board from the production manager, you will see, that he has changed policy/politics. Instead of having a ton of new unmature features, he want a few but well developed.

I totally agree with this aspect, because max5 had a lot of new stuff - but lots couldn't be used for production without custom coding, because of bugs, short-seeings/unflexibility etc.
Look at some modified versions on the net of the uvw-editor or the character node etc. It adds/improved things that we expected right from the beginning - or just fixes bugs.

The new culling system might improve the viewport speed - but it's not clear what was already in and what they added. The turbo-smooth might also improve your high-poly things.
And don't forget that you will be able to use normal-mapped low-poly version in your viewport - well the model needs to be finished - but for large scenes and backgrounds/architecture, it certainly helps.

And I wouldn't want to go back from 6 to 5 or 4. Too much things missing here and there. And not every script works with older versions.

Improvements in 7 already doesn't sound bad. As in the 2 previous releases, I discovered a lot of useful new things only when working with it. Guess might be the same here - though I hope really that this time I won't think (so often) "Man, can't they think a little further - this is not useable for me".

f97ao

08-16-2004, 11:09 AM

The new culling system might improve the viewport speed - but it's not clear what was already in and what they added. The turbo-smooth might also improve your high-poly things.
And don't forget that you will be able to use normal-mapped low-poly version in your viewport - well the model needs to be finished - but for large scenes and backgrounds/architecture, it certainly helps..
It's great that Discreet are focusing on handling larger scenes better, however I don't really believe it until I see it. The culling could be good or totally pointless for some jobs. For example, myself I mostly work on a few very high detailed objects. The culling wouldn't help anything here I think, it sounds like it would mainly help in a computer like game setting, were you have several rooms and the other rooms are hidden.

One think I REALLY would like to see improvements in is the xref tool. It's a great idea, in fact I would like to use xref on everything that I'm not modeling with. But the interface is so clunky and slow so I can't bear to work with it unless I really have to. Personally I think that everything that the user is not editing the faces of should have a low_res version. So if you animate a character there should always be a low_res version, and only a high res for rendering.

There are some great internal problems with the large objects in 3dsmax. I think the problem is that 3dsmax update the complete object even if you only move say 2 faces. This is the main problem for large objects.

/Andreas